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Is Ray Tracing worth the performance hit for console gamers?
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Derktron
Banned
No, I tried it out and was no impressed by it, doesn't add anything new other than some fancy-ass shiny effects and some nice effects to the game's visual effects. Other than that I think it shouldn't be in games that are on consoles, takes away from the actual performances that the game needs to run. I think it's not ready for primetime gaming just yet, needs a couple of years to shine. What I want to see is photorealism games, but not even that's possible on consoles just yet.
Derktron
Banned
Yep, Ray Tracing isn't needed, they don't even use that in animation movies like in Pixar movies. At least not yet, but they do use the software that you just shown. That's why animation movies look the way they look.Nope. you can get photorealistic visuals without ray tracing.
Derktron
Banned
So many things to dissect from this stupid comment but okay. Imagine not being able to play a game just because it doesn't have nice shiny effects on a damn window. Talk about being picky.Absolutely. Wouldn’t play Spider-Man without it.
(ie played in fidelity mode vs performance even pre RT/60fps patch)
sunnysideup
Banned
Ray tracing is great for smaller devs on pc. They can push a button and get top class lighting when they ray trace everything. Its going to look great. With cost being pushed on to the consumer who have to buy a new 3d card.
But its not in mega budget studios interest who work with limited console hardware. The ones who push ray tracing on console are going to have uglier games than the ones who work more with handbaked lighting. Since it eats up the set hardware budget.
Big studios with large game budgets who work on console are going to use it selectively.
But its not in mega budget studios interest who work with limited console hardware. The ones who push ray tracing on console are going to have uglier games than the ones who work more with handbaked lighting. Since it eats up the set hardware budget.
Big studios with large game budgets who work on console are going to use it selectively.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Didn’t say I wouldn’t play it. Said I wouldn’t play it without RT on.
Like, “I never leave the house without ”blank”.
It doesn’t mean I don’t leave the house. Just is a phrase that means I bring “blank” with me when I do.
You’re trying too hard.
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sunnysideup
Banned
Isnt it kinda pointless to show pics of famous RT games with RTon and off?
These games where made with RT in mind. If you turn it off. There is nothing.
These games where made with RT in mind. If you turn it off. There is nothing.
Mister Wolf
Member
Pixar RenderMan - Wikipedia
"Historically, RenderMan used the Reyes algorithm to render images with added support for advanced effects such as ray tracing and global illumination."
RayTracingCars (pixar.com)
"The ray tracing functionality has been used in many recent movies, including Pixar's latest movie 'Cars'"
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BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
What?
Literally none of the games in this thread we’re designed with RT in mind. They had RT layered in.
for instance the GI in Metro, is transformative, but couldn’t be incorporated into gameplay because most people playing the game wouldn’t be able to turn it on. Therefore, it allows for interesting gameplay mechanics, but can’t be used until everyone can have that experience. Which is why it’s great both consoles now do RT. Because we can start seeing gameplay/design effecting RT implementations instead of just it being layered on.
that said. We need current gen exclusives for that.
Derktron
Banned
But not actual Ray Tracing technology yes you can argue that it uses Global Illumination but so does every damn movie out there when it requires SFX. I said what I said.Pixar RenderMan - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
"Historically, RenderMan used the Reyes algorithm to render images with added support for advanced effects such as ray tracing and global illumination."
RayTracingCars (pixar.com)
"The ray tracing functionality has been used in many recent movies, including Pixar's latest movie 'Cars'"
Derktron
Banned
It's a stupid comment and should have not been said then I wouldn't have to respond to your comment. You said and I quote you could not play the game only if RT wasn't on and I'm saying that's stupid. How hard is that to understand that concept?
sunnysideup
Banned
Arent cyberpunk and control developed first and foremost for RT? The difference is huge in those titles.
The difference isnt as big in metro.
The difference isnt as big in metro.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Pixar have been using Raytracing since like 2006.
To put things into perspective and to further shoot this shit down.
Pixar have made more movies using Raytracing than they have without.
And its not even close.
About 6 movies preRaytracing and 16 post Raytracing.
As for the Rebirth scene looking great.
Sure.
But it looks even better with Raytracing.
As more games get dynamic TODs Raytracing becomes alot more valuable.
Hell i think every game needs RT GI because its such a game changing feature, every object in the scene is suddenly grounded in the world.
Mister Wolf
Member
Its ok to be wrong.
raytracingforcars.dvi (pixar.com)
"There are several reasons why the directors chose to use ray tracing for ‘Cars’: realistic reflections, sharp shadows, and ambient occlusion"
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BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
That is Ray Tracing. You said what you said, and what you said was wrong...
Derktron
Banned
I don't need a crash course on anything. I'm just saying motion pictures haven't used ACTUAL Ray Tracing as of yet. From what I hear. They will be able to use it once Unreal Engine because mainstream for motion pictures including animation movies.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Not as hard as it is for you to wrap your head around common English phrases I guess?
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Derktron
Banned
I don't care? Not real RT and this conversation is over.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
*Facts have entered the chat.*
*Derktron has left the chat.*
*Derktron has left the chat.*
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
But that is wrong.
Because movies have been using the more accurate Path Tracing for eons.
Raytracing is the Path Tracings weaker brother.
So why would they "now" be able to do the weaker form of Path tracing?
I think what you are mistaking is that movies/shows can use "realtime" or near realtime Raytracing to get scenes out faster than ever before thanks to softwares such as Unreal and Redshift.
But Path Tracers and RayTracing has been used in the motion picture industry since forever.
Its not something new.
You think Pixar/Disney animation have been dual rendering or comprendering every reflection and globally illuminated scene in their movies?
TonyK
Member
I mean, in that video character looks like shit regarding lighting. He doesn't cast shadow over the car seat, not even AO. Maybe the video belongs to the non raytracing mode? I would glad to see a video where that character is properly lighted by raytracing to feel inside a car, not floating over the seat. But, honestly, if that is RT doesn't look good. It doesn't look good even for traditional lighting implementations.
SkylineRKR
Member
No, I played Control and God of War back to back and was more impressed by GoW. Different aesthetics and all that but I wouldn't flick RT on in GoW if it would be a feature, since it would likely mean something like 1440p/30 or lower. And to be honest, when in combat, such as hectic shootouts Control sometimes throws at you, I am not really looking at the scenery. I much rather play action scenes at a high framerate.
RT is a cool feature, but only if consoles can maintain performance and resolution. Native or with deep learning. And that won't be possible this gen.
RT is a cool feature, but only if consoles can maintain performance and resolution. Native or with deep learning. And that won't be possible this gen.
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Mister Wolf
Member
BINGO.I mean, in that video character looks like shit regarding lighting. He doesn't cast shadow over the car seat, not even AO. Maybe the video belongs to the non raytracing mode? I would glad to see a video where that character is properly lighted by raytracing to feel inside a car, not floating over the seat. But, honestly, if that is RT doesn't look good. It doesn't look good even for traditional lighting implementations.
Team Andromeda
Member
Just give people options like on the PC and various graphics modes and allow the use to decide. So games use RT well and other's it doesn't add much
. I much rather have a 60 FPS option in Watchdogs Legion than RT, myself
. I much rather have a 60 FPS option in Watchdogs Legion than RT, myself
TonyK
Member
Ok. And a link to a video for the same part but with RT? I honestly want to compare them and evaluate if the difference compensates the performance impact.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
Nah
That video is just confirming how fucking lazy so called non RT is.. you can fake RT LOOKS. Look at the last GEARS 5 DLC. So it looks about the same 90% of the time.
control also has this issue..
The non RT version is super gimped to make the RT version look better.
It's like those fake instore HDR demo's on TV's, the ones that make non HDR look extremely shit.
My point being, no shit RT looks better. But sometimes non RT stuff can look hella better but they don't put in the effort.
That first picture comparison is one of those..
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Mister Wolf
Member
TonyK
Member
Hmmm, it looks almost the same, honestly. Lighting looks totally inaccurate, Lighting on that arm on the window has no sense. Again, no shadow, no occlusion, no color and light bouncing, it's an arm bad lighted floating over a car window. RT it's an improve, but for now, not enough to compensate the impact in framerate. At least for me.
Thanks for the video.
ZywyPL
Banned
To each their own, and luckly the devs are giving us multiple options nowadays, so everyone can pick whatever he/she prefers - 4K, RT, 60FPS, or some sort of mix of two. For me personally it's too early for RT - not at 4K, and especially not at AMD's solution. So when given an option I always choose 4K60, because for a PC guy like me a razor sharp image and butter smooth gameplay are the main priorities, always have been, and always willm while stuff like RT, HDR etc. are secondary objectives.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Devs aren’t gimping their games. Cyberpunk 2077 looks amazing with RT off. One of the best looking games ever made. It looks even better with RT.
Spider-Man didn’t Gimp its reflections for RT. They were the same reflections from the 2018 game that had no RT. They added in RT later. You think they purposely made the reflections look bad?
That’s some we never landed on the moon bullshit.
No RT. Looks great.
RT. Looks better.
Mister Wolf
Member
That's all that matters. If you're content with the shittier nonraytraced lighting then that's your choice. I'm not, not when I know there is something better.
Mister Wolf
Member
Devs aren’t gimping their games. Cyberpunk 2077 looks amazing with RT off. One of the best looking games ever made. It looks even better with RT.
Spider-Man didn’t Gimp its reflections for RT. They were the same reflections from the 2018 game that had no RT. They added in RT later. You think they purposely made the reflections look bad?
That’s some we never landed on the moon bullshit.
No RT. Looks great.
RT. Looks better.
Dont waste your time. Dude don't even realize Hivebusters is using Screen Space Global Illumination which is a simple more performant form of raytracing.
Screen Space Global Illumination In Unreal Engine | Unreal Engine 5.4 Documentation | Epic Developer Community
An overview of dynamic global illumination using a screen space effect in Unreal Engine.
docs.unrealengine.com
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Knitted Knight
Banned
Up to the individual developer to decide is the politically correct answer. Big AAA blockbusters have no excuse imo.
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I don't see any reflections in those images.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
Devs aren’t gimping their games. Cyberpunk 2077 looks amazing with RT off. One of the best looking games ever made. It looks even better with RT.
Spider-Man didn’t Gimp its reflections for RT. They were the same reflections from the 2018 game that had no RT. They added in RT later. You think they purposely made the reflections look bad?
That’s some we never landed on the moon bullshit.
No RT. Looks great.
RT. Looks better.
Spiderman is an amazing example of how to semi fake RT. So it's doesn't affect the gameplay. The RT @60 fps mode is a great example of this.
CONTROL RT is sluggish as hell. There is a huge lag in controls right now on the ps5 version.
As for cyber 2077 i played it on a 3080. That game looks ugly as fuck at times.. No details in surrounding.
this looks shitty. as hell.. MAXED out gfx.
Then again the GFX are the last in line of the current problems of this game.
llien
Member
There is objective reason for it to never become cheaper than traditional (raster) approach.
Which could be used to achieve amazing results, by the way:
Denton
Member
Baked lighting prevents games from having dynamic time of day. It can looks amazing (AC Unity, Uncharted 4) but I do not want every game to be static.
I could see an argument for GI like Metro Exodus has, because that fundamentally changes the quality of the graphics. Even then, the price is high if it means sacrificing 60fps.
But it seems that these consoles aren't really capable of that effect, for reasons I don't really understand.
So, for me, giving up a smooth 60fps in something like MM for something I hardly ever notice during normal gameplay, and which doesn't even look that good on close inspection (there are plenty of compromises even with just the RT reflections) just seems crazy.
I've tried the 3 modes in the Spider-Man games multiple times and personally of the big 3 benefits, frame rate is by FAR the most impressive, then RT and very slightly behind that, native resolution. So I play with RT performance mode, not because the RT is particularly impressive (it's not) but because I can't tell much difference between the IQ in that mode and ordinary performance mode. If I could, I'd gladly sacrifice the RT instead.
But it seems that these consoles aren't really capable of that effect, for reasons I don't really understand.
So, for me, giving up a smooth 60fps in something like MM for something I hardly ever notice during normal gameplay, and which doesn't even look that good on close inspection (there are plenty of compromises even with just the RT reflections) just seems crazy.
I've tried the 3 modes in the Spider-Man games multiple times and personally of the big 3 benefits, frame rate is by FAR the most impressive, then RT and very slightly behind that, native resolution. So I play with RT performance mode, not because the RT is particularly impressive (it's not) but because I can't tell much difference between the IQ in that mode and ordinary performance mode. If I could, I'd gladly sacrifice the RT instead.
Rikkori
Member
Imo I can say hand on heart it's 100% worth it for Metro Exodus (not implemented yet on consoles but I know what it's going to look like vs what using that power for raster would do). Haven't played MM so can't say for sure, but it looks appropriate too. Everything else? Not really.
Now if you were to design a game from the ground up for next-gen, would RT have a place? Imo even less so because with tech like UE5 you can see how much better the returns are for smart raster techniques. The consoles are just too weak for RT, hell, even most GPUs on desktop are that aren't a 3090 or at best a 3080.
Now if you were to design a game from the ground up for next-gen, would RT have a place? Imo even less so because with tech like UE5 you can see how much better the returns are for smart raster techniques. The consoles are just too weak for RT, hell, even most GPUs on desktop are that aren't a 3090 or at best a 3080.
regawdless
Banned
Depends on the implementation. Seeing how consoles appear to only be able to implement RT settings below minimum PC settings, I expect the continuation of very limited usage of any RT. But even these limited implementations can make a huge difference and games look great.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Now throw some dynamic lighting on it and the difference would be more noticeable. Not the mention, how much less work RT workflow requires, no need to bake in lighting and all that kind of stuff.Nope. you can get photorealistic visuals without ray tracing.
GymWolf
Gold Member
I know right?! Rtx reflections in morales are not near to how real life reflections works, they are basically less shitty fake reflections.
Giving up half of your frames for that is crazy to me.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Why you posting a flat, gamey looking game to prove your point? The lighting is also static and baked.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
I prefer to reach that rendering quality first and then add rtx.
Rtx on shitty texture looks far worse than good textures with state of the art fake lights.
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I think with a top card plus DLSS or something similar, then we are pretty much at the point of affording next gen graphics, high resolution, 60fps, and genuinely impressive RT. But that probably implies power required of something like 4 x the new consoles, if you account for the savings from stuff like DLSS. If you're happy with something cruder like checkerboarding or just straight native 1440p, then maybe 20 to 25 tflops would be fine.
So, really, it's something for next gen. Or a 3080 if DLSS becomes widely used.
And it's catch 22 as well. You don't really notice the RT unless you stop and look for it. But once you do that, you notice the glaring limitations, practically by definition.
So what's the point?
In contrast, 60fps is a HUGE difference every single second I'm playing the game. It's a no brainer!