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Alec Baldwin Kills Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins With Real Gun
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
The golden rule is a little different in movie productions though. In the death of Brandon Lee for example, Michael Massee pointed the gun at Lee and fired with a loaded (with blanks) gun - and this is exactly what he was 'supposed' to do. In a normal situation you know that all the rounds are live, there are no blanks, no fake bullets etc. I'm pretty sure I've seen scenes in movies where someone has a loaded gun pointed at someones head and then the hero takes it off them and ejects the visibly 'loaded' clip in a single take. You also shouldn't normally throw pyrotechnics towards people, crash cars, blow things up with people near by, jump off 4 story buildings, set people on fire etc.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
No it's not. The rules were more strictly enforced since the Brandon Lee incident, which is ironic that you brought it up. Do read the thread and all of my posts. Been covered to death with receipts.
I have worked several productions and we all followed this rule that the actor is the last to check the firearm in front of the armorer or weapons master (whatever special title they want to have that day). This production was sloppy AND UNION WORKERS WALKED OUT DUE TO SAFETY CONCERNS BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FOLLOWING STANDARD PRACTICE in regards to firearm safety. They literally were acting all "wild wild west."
I'm done with this thread anyhow. Let cognitive dissonance ring.
chromhound
Member
i guess Dave Halls is about to catch a charge for negligence ?
I imagine he will be the one most likely to face criminal charges. Given his past history he seems to be a sloppy operator in this respect, might be why he was cheap enough for Alec to afford him. The armorer lady might see court as well. Alec, I suspect, will make a settlement with the family to avoid a wrongful death lawsuit and probably has enough on set coverage to avoid a criminal charge. His production company's insurance is gonna pay out big as well. I imagine we will never see him handle a weapon as an actor again, probably for the best.
Sounds like this film might have been a lot more "action driven" than I initially assumed, at least going from the description some crew used. Makes it even more bizarre that the production company went so cheap on safety. 7 million dollar budget seems like a lot to me for a western but I guess not for the script they were using.
Thaedolus
Member
I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. I started off thinking "well maybe the rules are different on a set...?" and when it became clear that they're not and what standard practices are, I changed my mind. Why's it so hard for some people to change their mind when new info comes to light?
Maybe you don't think it's a good idea for the actor to be the last one to check the weapon before a scene, but that doesn't mean that's not what they're supposed to do per standard safety protocols. And with as long as Baldwin has been doing this shit, he apparently should've known better.
Cyberpunkd
Member
How is that a lot? Imagine all the sets and costumes you need. 3:10 to Yuma had a budget of 48-55 million and that was in 2007.
Pagusas
Elden Member
Its not, it's an extremely cheap production for a film intended for release, especially in 2021.
I've seen some REALLY cheap looking westerns. They look to have been filmed on someones ranch. There are a couple of horse riding stunts, a little bit of gunplay, and lots of long shots of sunsets across the plains and interiors of a one room cabin (think Hateful Eight). If you are calling in favors for the crew and willing to go to New Mexico which has a lot of standing buildings to act as backdrop, then 7 mill doesn't seem inherently unreasonable for a film that doesn't have a lot of stunt work. Of course that doesn't seem to be the case here...
I'm thinking of films like "In the Valley of Violence" with Ethan Hawke or "The Legend of 5 mile Cave" with (ironically) Adam Baldwin. Enhance that budget with some tax credits, call in some favors, and pick a genre that can be filmed with stuff lying around the West and 7 mill seems ok.
I'm thinking of films like "In the Valley of Violence" with Ethan Hawke or "The Legend of 5 mile Cave" with (ironically) Adam Baldwin. Enhance that budget with some tax credits, call in some favors, and pick a genre that can be filmed with stuff lying around the West and 7 mill seems ok.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Take a look at this behind the scenes of 3:10 Yuma. Within the first minute there is a guy being 'shot' at point blank range, and several shots of people firing directly at camera with a cameraman behind the camera with only a plastic facemask for protection.
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Thaedolus
Member
…neglecting to show the vital step of the actor verifying what’s in the weapon before firing it.
Heh heh, did you happen to see who is the master armorer for 3:10 to Yuma in that vid?
You guessed it, Thell Reed, the father of Hannah Reed! So is 3:10 a good or bad example?
Notice the care they took for close person shots. How many shooters were stuntmen on stuntmen, not some fancy actor? The editing makes you THINK they are shooting at each other a lot more than they are.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
What has that got to do with the golden rule? Or firearms 101? I have never heard "the golden rule of firearm safety is to make sure you have blanks loaded before pointing and firing at someone"
In this case it might have helped but in the one other famous case there were blanks loaded. In fact I can imagine it being more dangerous to have the actor open the weapon after it has been cleared by an expert, as they could accidentally introduce something into the barrel.
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zeorhymer
Member
Huh? Then just call it a gun. Stop with the word salad. A fake gun can't shoot bullets, use that phrase instead.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
20cent
Banned
Gun rules or not, for decades now it seems that they go the cgi route for anything from blood splats, weather, de-aging, outdoor locations to even adding dead actors, you'd think they could add gun shot actions to that list... I'm sure there's a very convincing iPhone app that does that..
Not funny...but that's hilarious
Not funny...but that's hilarious
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
They do, John Wick as well as many others. You can see how off the muzzle flash trajectory is from the post processing CGI for those who have firearms experience and an eye for it.
Westerns are a little tougher with the dirtier soot and smoke, thus they rely more on practical effects.
Torrent of Pork
Banned
Let's also cut the newspeak with 'misfires'. Virtually all single-action revolvers have a very light trigger pull after the hammer is brought to full cock. These triggers are lighter than even SA/DA semi-automatics, and not even in the same ballpark as striker fired semis. My Pietta Remington 1858 repro has about a 1.5lbs trigger, my 9mm S&W carry pistol is about 8lbs for comparison.
These weren't misfires, these were negligent discharges. There is a world of difference.
These weren't misfires, these were negligent discharges. There is a world of difference.
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Halo is Back
Member
Good point. You don't just accidentally fire a revolver without the hammer pulled back (unless it was double action I suppose) and if it was pulled back, just hanging around the set, that is so incredibly dangerous. Pure negligence. This whole situation baffles me to no end. It's like every single safety precaution was ignored.
No wonder the crew walked off for "unsafe working conditions" they were afraid of being killed too. Yet, leadership ignored all warnings and pleas for change. Heads need to roll for this incompetence.
ultrazilla
Gold Member
Hope this asshole gets put away for a long, long time. Baldwin is *NOT* a good person. At all.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Objects have lots of uses on sets and those uses generate responsabilties, who's in charge, etc.
People in a job ain't going to change their work lingo, which has a purpose, just not to confuse people who aren't in that industry.
QuantumZebra
Member
Whelp, there it is.
These fucktards couldn't use their own guns? Who the hell was in charge of inventory and prop management on set? The Three Stooges?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Not likely. Also why is he "*NOT*" a good person in your opinion?
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Insane Metal
Member
Dude... this is beyond stupid. How does something like this happen in a profissional movie set? What the fuck?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Yeah the people in charge of the guns and the safety of the cast and crew dropped about million different balls in this situation.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Roll Fizzlebeef
Member
I am still baffled how someone can be so ignorant in gun safety.
I dont care if they are an instructor at a gun range, or any kind of expert. If someone hands you a gun and says its clear, you check the fucking thing before pointing it at someone. Every fucking time.
I dont care if they are an instructor at a gun range, or any kind of expert. If someone hands you a gun and says its clear, you check the fucking thing before pointing it at someone. Every fucking time.
This 100%.
I find it incredible how little attention this aspect of gun safety is getting.
chromhound
Member
wait what lol...
Pagusas
Elden Member
At this point I think its fair to hope ANYONE involved with this production never gets a job in the industry again. Fuck ups everywhere, I sure wouldn't want anyone with this movie in their resume on any team I have.
Common sense straight from someone in the picture.
'Rust' actor describes ‘life-threatening’ shootout scene before fatal accident involving Alec Baldwin | Fox News
"Fortunately, Hudson explained that some of the other actors on the set with more experience than him when it came to firearms did indeed check their weapons, regardless of whether or not they were told the guns were safe to handle or not.
As a new actor, I don’t want to cause trouble," he explained. "I don’t want to make an issue about things, I just want to do as well as I can and get the footage that they want. So, I held my tongue for a lot of it."
He added: "But some of the other actors who had worked on a lot more sets than I have as principal characters… They were double and triple-checking our weapons after the armorer gave them to us, whether they were cold or hot."
He also notes the armorer lady, Reed, was doing the best she could given the circumstances of the shoot. Not that that will save her I don't think, if she failed to check the guns that day after the crew were availing themselves of them (with or without her knowledge?) for live fire target practice.
'Rust' actor describes ‘life-threatening’ shootout scene before fatal accident involving Alec Baldwin | Fox News
"Fortunately, Hudson explained that some of the other actors on the set with more experience than him when it came to firearms did indeed check their weapons, regardless of whether or not they were told the guns were safe to handle or not.
As a new actor, I don’t want to cause trouble," he explained. "I don’t want to make an issue about things, I just want to do as well as I can and get the footage that they want. So, I held my tongue for a lot of it."
He added: "But some of the other actors who had worked on a lot more sets than I have as principal characters… They were double and triple-checking our weapons after the armorer gave them to us, whether they were cold or hot."
He also notes the armorer lady, Reed, was doing the best she could given the circumstances of the shoot. Not that that will save her I don't think, if she failed to check the guns that day after the crew were availing themselves of them (with or without her knowledge?) for live fire target practice.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Kenpachii
Member
So basically they took the cheap chick, that had no clue what was going on to checkmark a requirement they didn't care about. Cast was doing whatever they wanted with those guns in there free time because 24 year old chick was to busy making instagram pictures of herself on the set and probably had no pull over the cast.
Director that gives zero shits about safety protocols because no budget.
And the result was somebody got killed.
So basically every chain in the link that was supposed to prevent those bullits hitting the gun that baldwin had failed hard. Then baldwin messed around with the gun by pointing and shooting at people because he probably was like all the other cast bored to death over there and people died.
In short a perfect cocktail of disaster that could be prevented by exactly what that other armorsmith said, not taking the job. So the armorsmith or whatever they call it 24 year old girl, loyally fucked up by taking a job she wasn't qualified for.
But how much can u blame her at the end of the day, she's basically a nobody. The fact that the director didnt'wanted to hire additional people should basically resulted in never allowing guns to be used in the picture to start with.
In my view the director or whowever decided to hire that chick and not the 2 other people that the other guy suggested but still wanted guns everywhere should be taking the heat for this one. Baldwin needs to be hit also for pointing a gun at people without himself checking if the gun had actual bullits in them, but that should be minor.
Director that gives zero shits about safety protocols because no budget.
And the result was somebody got killed.
So basically every chain in the link that was supposed to prevent those bullits hitting the gun that baldwin had failed hard. Then baldwin messed around with the gun by pointing and shooting at people because he probably was like all the other cast bored to death over there and people died.
In short a perfect cocktail of disaster that could be prevented by exactly what that other armorsmith said, not taking the job. So the armorsmith or whatever they call it 24 year old girl, loyally fucked up by taking a job she wasn't qualified for.
But how much can u blame her at the end of the day, she's basically a nobody. The fact that the director didnt'wanted to hire additional people should basically resulted in never allowing guns to be used in the picture to start with.
In my view the director or whowever decided to hire that chick and not the 2 other people that the other guy suggested but still wanted guns everywhere should be taking the heat for this one. Baldwin needs to be hit also for pointing a gun at people without himself checking if the gun had actual bullits in them, but that should be minor.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I have been listening to Fatman Beyond on YouTube and Kevin Smith basically laid out the process of the prop gun preparation ... And it is basically what, I think,
StreetsofBeige
posted. The armorer is supposed to show the actor that the gun is, in fact, cold right before handing to the actor... That doesn't seem to be what happened. Failure all through the process, it seems.
StreetsofBeige
posted. The armorer is supposed to show the actor that the gun is, in fact, cold right before handing to the actor... That doesn't seem to be what happened. Failure all through the process, it seems.
Jaysen
Banned
She let a weapon onto set that had an actual bullet in it and also allowed crew members to use the prop guns for target practice. Totally doing the best she could. This guy sounds real legit.
Dr Bass
Member
Of course that's your takeaway. News story after news story is talking about how actors are also supposed to check their weapons. Like people here have been saying repeatedly.
What is your agenda? Why not just say it? You're clearly not discussing in good faith at all, because you've been proven wrong on every level imaginable and yet you keep coming back and you keep deflecting. Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish here?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I will sum it up,
Is refusing to sleep with a trans person Transphobic? (BBC Article)
Here’s your problem: The public are not openly split about transgender acceptance at all. By and large, in this enlightened time, the vast majority have no issues with someone being transgender. They do however have issues with the denial of basic human biology and misogyny towards women...
Vlodril
Member
That is a very resetera comment.
Well, if she wasn't empowered to force procedures and she went to a producer, Baldwin perhaps, then who is ultimately responsible?
Was she a cowgirl on set and lax with safety? Possibly. Was she circumvented by that AD? Possibly. Did Alec do everything in his power AS AN ACTOR to prevent this? No. Did he do everything in his power as a producer? Doesn't sound like it. Plenty o blame to go 'round in this one. Who ever does CGI Gunsmoke is gonna be real busy after this I think as those western guns tend to be the most succeptible to what happened.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Holy hell, so the sheriff just confirmed it was ball ammo if I heard right?
The GROSS negligence to allow a prop gun loaded with real ammo in the hands of an actor is beyond belief.
The GROSS negligence to allow a prop gun loaded with real ammo in the hands of an actor is beyond belief.
Jaysen
Banned
Actually news story after news story say you would never make the last line of defense be the actor. That’s why the AD is the one getting all the heat.
Jaysen
Banned
How bad was the armorer? Nic Cage asked for her to be removed from the film he did with her.
www.slashfilm.com
Nicolas Cage Demanded Removal Of Inexperienced Rust Armorer From Another Production - SlashFilm
The inexperienced armorer on the set of Rust was responsible for a previous incident involving gun safety on a Nicolas Cage film.
www.slashfilm.com
Actor ON THAT SET saying the more experienced actors did check their weapons. Alec probably had more on set time than everyone within 50 miles put together. What does "negligent" mean to you?
Alec's responsibility, AS AN ACTOR, was to follow the rules of gun handling. Yet he broke several of them. If he was an 'experienced' actor he could have checked his own gun and saved a life. If he was an 'inexperienced' actor then he could have decided to NOT pull the trigger on a gun he couldnt verify was safe and not just take the word of some AD no one else was trusting either.
Why do you insist on deflecting personal responsibility and common sense safety measures?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You won't ever get that answer. Let him do his public reeeeeelations.
Considering that Alec Baldwin's El Dorado Pictures is the lead production company, all these veterans running around knowing her history, the endless reckless negligence, it baffles me that some clowns would want to blame a sole woman. But hey, it's Hollywood, they will have their "fall guy" or girl in this case, and the sycophants' will cheer with glee.
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No. Blanks are often made from the same cases live ammo use. What can change is the barrel, it is a smaller diameter so a bullet wouldn't go through or is plugged in some fashion. They can also modify the magazine or chamber to not take the longer bullets.
But the cheapest thing is to just use a real gun but NOT put live rounds in it. Every year some cop will get shot in a training scenario when live ammo is mixed with blanks. Transitioning to airsoft helps, going to dummy guns with CGI helps a lot, but makes folks complacent when it is done for the "old school" look. I don't think any western will look good with cg gunsmoke.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Thanks. I don't know guns at all, so I had to ask.