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[Ignis Fatuus]

You found two poorly worded reports

We have a hard number for the PS3 losses, and it was $4.7 billion circa 2009. Where is your number for the PS1 and PS2 profits? I think you're starting to realize how silly your "$7 multiplied by 1.5 = 10.5 BILLION DOLLARS IN PROFIT" arithmetic really was.

Put up or shut up.

 

[Medalion]

Wait, this isn't a 'Nintendo is doooooomed' thread?

Man, GAF shifts fast.

Nintendo is always doomed since 1889, I see that trend continuing but they will never truly go away forever.

 

[Corto]

Isn't MS Xbox division still bleeding money? Windows 8 and Live integration in PCs and mobile phones will be paramount in MS future in the industry. Worst case scenario Sony is bought by Apple. Nintendo will be here for another century selling Mario plushies if needed.

 

[Basileus777]

Does it really matter if Sony lost more money on the PS3 than they earned in previous generations? What is important is future profitability, and while the Vita's prospects aren't looking great, it's way too early to predict what will happen with the PS4.

 

[StuBurns]

Stu, I did the numbers personally... that's not just their hardware profits. It's the profits of the entire division. On everything (gaming related) at the time.

http://www.1up.com/news/sony-lost-ps3-ps2

This article suggests otherwise, it's the only detailed thing I can find really.

 

[Sydle]

Isn't MS Xbox division still bleeding money? Windows 8 and Live integration in PCs and mobile phones will be paramount in MS future in the industry. Worst case scenario Sony is bought by Apple. Nintendo will be here for another century selling Mario plushies if needed.

Been profitable annually since 2008.

 

[Pureauthor]

Does it really matter if Sony lost more money on the PS3 than they earned in previous generations? What is important is future profitability, and while the Vita's prospects aren't looking great, it's way too early to predict what will happen with the PS4.

"Well, sure the PS3 was a massive financial disaster, but think about what we can do with our next platform!"

You honestly think that argument will fly with shareholders, executives, or frankly, anyone?

 

[surly]

Isn't MS Xbox division still bleeding money?

The Entertainments & Devices Division has been profitable since 2007. EDIT - Sorry, Paco is right. Since 2008. 2007 was their worst year in fact, haha.

 

[Averon]

Gaf told me that Sony is loosing mad amount of money on the Bravia Tv Line.

Yeah. Sony's gaming business is probably one of the brighter spots the company have atm. The most troubling sector is their TV business. They really need to get that under control, and they have begun to. They sold their stake in a shared venture with Samsung recently, and it will save them hundreds of millions I heard. It's a start, but they have a long way to go.

 

[Abylim]

Hard to choose one, all three seem to have the resources to tank it out. Sony sells other things besides Playstations, MS obviously as well. Nintendo has more money than they know what to do with. Sega didnt really have those options.

 

[Basileus777]

Xbox and Live are one of Microsoft's best successes outside of their core businesses. They aren't going to abandon a successful brand like this very easily, not after all the effort it took to establish it.

 

[RukusProvider]

Nintendo would have to make 2 concurrent harware flops in a row to bow out. Meaning the 3Ds and WiiU would both need to fail for Nintendo to be KO'd

MS would leave if they found a device that gave them the same "sticky" with consumers. With the Xbox they finally have a consumer device that is starting to become the goto for all entertainment mediums. It's something they have been salivating for years so i expect their focus to continue in this area.

Sony would be forced to leave if they flop their Vita and PS4.

 

[Psychotext]

Isn't MS Xbox division still bleeding money?

Xbox division has been profitable for the last four financial years, though not cumulatively since the release of the xbox.

That's taking into account things like Kin and Zune which are listed in the same dept.

 

[surly]

http://www.1up.com/news/sony-lost-ps3-ps2

This article suggests otherwise, it's the only detailed thing I can find really.

Go and look in the financial reports yourself. The profit they list isn't just for hardware. It's for the entire gaming division.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

This article suggests otherwise

It really doesn't, and it's also from 2008 before they went on to lose another $1.7 billion in 2009.

Go and look in the financial reports yourself. The profit they list isn't just for hardware. It's for the entire gaming division.

Let that be the nail in the coffin then.

 

[Psychotext]

http://www.1up.com/news/sony-lost-ps3-ps2

This article suggests otherwise, it's the only detailed thing I can find really.

I trust my info, which incidentally spawned a number of those articles:

http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=19625436&postcount=90

That data is taken directly from the financial reports, and has been checked by a number of other people.

(Note, no longer updated because the departments don't accurately reflect just gaming any more for MS and Sony.)

 

[Rebel Leader]

Microsoft.

With nintendo and sony teaming up for a glorious one console future.

Spoiler

BELIEVE.

And Sega

Make a dreamcast 2 with the slogen "Dare 2 Dream"

 

[Acheron]

Sony may be the one who is doing worst, but they can't really leave gaming as providing content and the machines to deliver it is what's going to matter in consumer electronics.

Nintendo is games so unless it goes bankrupt it's still in.

MS on the other hand could leave consumer electronics and focus on business services like IBM did. It could also focus purely on services such as killing the Xbox but developing a gaming/Zune/video cloud service through Windows tablets, Windows phones and other windows devices which would replace the dedicated console.

Even though MS is arguably the biggest and healthiest player it's not as stuck in the gaming business as the other two. With Ballmer likely leaving there may be a change in direction.

Remember strategy doesn't involve doing what is most profitable, it means performing tasks that create sustainable advantage. Sony and Nintendo need their game divisions more than MS does.

 

[Roto13]

If Sony learned from this generation, they could stay around forever. Unfortunately, the Vita says they haven't actually learned anything.

Nintendo, 3DS failure and Wii U is looking like it's heading for a disaster.

So they cut the price for the hell of it?

So a system is only successful until its first price drop, at which point it becomes a failure?

Things were looking grim for the 3DS pre-drop. They're certainly not any more.

Also you know fuck all about the future of the Wii U.

 

[StuBurns]

It really doesn't, and it's also from 2008 before they went on to lose another $1.7 billion in 2009.

It really does.

all of the money Sony made on hardware last generation -- it's already spent more to sell the PS3 at a loss so far. Some estimates put that loss at $3 billion.

I can't imagine it being worded more clearly. Maybe it's wrong, but it certainly says hardware only.

 

[legend166]

You really believe Sony only made $3B on the five best years of the PS2? That's moronic. Blizzard make more than that on five years of WoW.

So Sony were receiving income that they weren't reporting in their financial statements?

You should probably tell the Japanese government about that. They could use the taxes.

 

[Corto]

The Entertainments & Devices Division has been profitable since 2007. EDIT - Sorry, Paco is right. Since 2008. 2007 was their worst year in fact, haha.

I seem to remember a graph showing that since MS entered the hardware business they still haven't recoupe the money poured in... I can't search for it right now though. If no one post that I will try to find it latter.

 

[Fjordson]

I'm leaning towards Sony, though I don't see any of the three suddenly bailing out any time soon. At least, I don't think any of them will.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

It really does.



I can't imagine it being worded more clearly. Maybe it's wrong, but it certainly says hardware only.

The title has "at least" for a reason, and the line you bolded also includes "more" for the same reason. 1UP wasn't doing the due diligence themselves and made a conservative statement.

I think the matter's been resolved now, let's move on with the facts thus established.

 

[DR3AM]

sony, if vita and ps4 flop, sony is done

 

[trinest]

Isn't Sony unstable in other markets bar Video Games though?

 

[littleworm]

Sony, would be the most likely. Nintendo will be around as long as Mario and company sell well and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Microsoft is pushing all this integration stuff plus they have lots of money to fall back on in rough times.

 

[Sydle]

I seem to remember a graph showing that since MS entered the hardware business they still haven't recoupe the money poured in... I can't search for it right now though. If no one post that I will try to find it latter.

No, they haven't. They're still several billion in the hole overall, but that's long since been written off and it's not like MS has to recoup it to keep the platform afloat. It's profitable today even with expensive bombs like Kin thrown in the mix.

 

[Acheron]

I seem to remember a graph showing that since MS entered the hardware business they still haven't recoupe the money poured in... I can't search for it right now though. If no one post that I will try to find it latter.

Though I'm not privy to knowing Microsoft's management, my expectation is that firms look at generational profitability.

ie if the Xbox lost $4 billion but the 360 made $2 billion, then the product line is still in the red, but the initial Xbox might be viewed as a learning experience and sunk cost necessary to achieve profitability in future periods.

Also MS viewed the Xbox more in the vein of keeping Sony from becoming a living room media center that interdicted potential windows devices. In this it has succeeded and thus even if unprofitable likely still of strategic value.

 

[Cruzader]

I would say Sony would be the first to bail out. They are in a downward state and things don't look good for then overall. Maybe even become the next Sega. (will be a sad day to see if it ever happens)

I can see Apple entering with their own machine and coming out on top. With them getting GTA3 on their iOS platform is enough for me to believe they will be a console giant in the future. (already getting their with their devices I must say)

 

[legend166]

It really does.



I can't imagine it being worded more clearly. Maybe it's wrong, but it certainly says hardware only.

It's just crappy writing by Kennedy.

 

[StuBurns]

The title has "at least" for a reason, and the line you bolded also includes "more" for the same reason. 1UP wasn't doing the due diligence themselves and made a conservative statement.

They weren't making the statement, they were reiterating the statement Dave Perry made, maybe he didn't do the due diligence however.

According to Perry, Sony has lost more money selling PlayStation 3s than it made selling PlayStation 2s during the entire five years of its peak.

Or they're reporting his claim incorrectly. Not sure which.

It's just crappy writing by Kennedy.

Maybe.

 

[Lion Heart]

We just had this thread. What happened to it?

Anyway, Sony is the most likely to bow out while at the same time have the most potential to succeed next gen. Assuming things go as planned, Wii U is released with modest specs and the other two fight it out with powerful machines, than I can see Sony bouncing back nicely after this rough generation.

They would have to play their cards right but its all there for the taking. Release the PS4 right around the next Xbox launch and at the same price (or cheaper). That is crucial and can make or break Sony.

If you break down the three markets, than Sony has a decent shot at 2 of them. Obviously Xbox is dead in Japan so if Sony was smart they would not let MS secure exclusives there, instead sign their own. Studios have much more incentive to sign with Sony as they could actually sell games on that platform. If the tech gap is great enough between the Wii U, than secure the next FF (as we heard Square likes to push the envelope with that franchise). That will not only help in Japan but worldwide.

Next, get GT6 out within the first 2 years for Europe. UK aside, Sony has done a good job in Europe with a very high console price. Capitalize on that loyalty/brand power.

I cant see them outselling the next Xbox in NA but I can see them split it. Free online, a much healthier Japanese support and equal parity between multiplats without the 1 year headstart will make all the difference.

So maybe its not "easy" per se but the potential is there. Continue with the strong first party support and new IPs as well. I didn't talk about Wii U that much because honestly, its a huge wildcard and impossible to predict. Same with any unannounced next gen innovation that can throw a wrench in my predicitions (controllers, massive third party exclusive, online features, etc).

 

[Kinyou]

The Japanese game industry

 

[Eusis]

I think it'd be either Sony or Microsoft. Sony is in the worst position financially, but I suspect they're ALSO a lot more stubborn about staying in than Microsoft will be should Microsoft's game fortunes turn around, though it helps that IIRC gaming is STILL one of Sony's best performing divisions, if not the best.

Nintendo's going to stay in until they outright die, and given how the 3DS has started to find its footing and the Wii rebounded from how tepid the GC was relatively I think they can stay in the race.

 

[Acheron]

We just had this thread. What happened to it?

Anyway, Sony is the most likely to bow out while at the same time have the most potential to succeed next gen. Assuming things go as planned, Wii U is released with modest specs and the other two fight it out with powerful machines, than I can see Sony bouncing back nicely after this rough generation.

They would have to play their cards right but its all there for the taking. Release the PS4 right around the next Xbox launch and at the same price (or cheaper). That is crucial and can make or break Sony.

If you break down the three markets, than Sony has a decent shot at 2 of them. Obviously Xbox is dead in Japan so if Sony was smart they would not let MS secure exclusives there, instead sign their own. Studios have much more incentive to sign with Sony as they could actually sell games on that platform. If the tech gap is great enough between the Wii U, than secure the next FF (as we heard Square likes to push the envelope with that franchise). That will not only help in Japan but worldwide.

Next, get GT6 out within the first 2 years for Europe. UK aside, Sony has done a good job in Europe with a very high console price. Capitalize on that loyalty/brand power.

I cant see them outselling the next Xbox in NA but I can see them split it. Free online, a much healthier Japanese support and equal parity between multiplats without the 1 year headstart will make all the difference.

So maybe its not "easy" per se but the potential is there. Continue with the strong first party support and new IPs as well. I didn't talk about Wii U that much because honestly, its a huge wildcard and impossible to predict. Same with any unannounced next gen innovation that can throw a wrench in my predicitions (controllers, massive third party exclusive, online features, etc).

Everything you said brings marketshare, not money or competitive advantage. If I have to bribe customers with low prices, avoid subscription revenue and constantly have to invest in crash development I may "win" for the fanboys but lose for the shareholder.

Realize Sony cares more about Vita and PS4 to push Sony's integrated media service. Everything else is icing.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Nintendo, 3DS failure and Wii U is looking like it's heading for a disaster.

I don't know what to say to this.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I can see Apple entering with their own machine and coming out on top. With them getting GTA3 on their iOS platform is enough for me to believe they will be a console giant in the future.

wat.

 

[Rebel Leader]

I think it'd be either Sony or Microsoft. Sony is in the worst position financially, but I suspect they're ALSO a lot more stubborn about staying in than Microsoft will be should Microsoft's game fortunes turn around, though it helps that IIRC gaming is STILL one of Sony's best performing divisions, if not the best.

Nintendo's going to stay in until they outright die, and given how the 3DS has started to find its footing and the Wii rebounded from how tepid the GC was relatively I think they can stay in the race.

Nintendo is as much software as hardware. Iwata said so.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Surprised at everyone saying Sony, I mean... it was (is?) the only devision making money. They'll stop selling TVs before they get rid of SCE.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Surprised at everyone saying Sony, I mean... it was (is?) the only devision making money.

...In what universe?

 

[Psychotext]

though it helps that IIRC gaming is STILL one of Sony's best performing divisions, if not the best.

Sony doesn't even really have a gaming division any more. All their gaming stuff now falls under Consumer Products & Services umbrella, along with everything else you might imagine in there. (Televisions, home audio, home video, digital imaging, personal and mobile products)

 

[Acheron]

Nintendo is as much software as hardware. Iwata said so.

Maybe in revenue share, but the loss in market power due to becoming just one of many myriad developers for another machine would be quite damaging to the firm.

 

[Angry Fork]

It'll be dreadful if Sony goes out of gaming. They care a lot about having the best exclusives and put a lot of work into that. Microsoft doesn't give a shit, Nintendo takes too long and doesn't try new things.

 

[Medalion]

I don't know what to say to this.

Search yer feelings Lord Vader, you will know it to be true...

Nah.

It'll be dreadful if Sony goes out of gaming. They care a lot about having the best exclusives and put a lot of work into that. Microsoft doesn't give a shit, Nintendo takes too long and doesn't try new things.

Nintendo tries new things all the time, the problem is, they're not the new things YOU want...

 

[surly]

They weren't making the statement, they were reiterating the statement Dave Perry made, maybe he didn't do the due diligence however.

Or they're reporting his claim incorrectly. Not sure which.

Maybe.

The financial reports from Sony are available here: -

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/index.html

They go back to Q1 2003. If you check them, you'll see that the figures for their gaming division (including all game related sales, not just hardware) match up with the figures that Psychotext posted in that other thread.

 

[Metalmurphy]

...In what universe?

The only one I know of. I remember that being discussed in a thread about the annual earnings.

 

[StuBurns]

Maybe in revenue share, but the loss in market power due to becoming just one of many myriad developers for another machine would be quite damaging to the firm.

It's pretty much only CoD that rivals the big Nintendo IPs isn't it? If they did go third party, they would hardly be just another developer.

 

[legend166]

They weren't making the statement, they were reiterating the statement Dave Perry made, maybe he didn't do the due diligence however.

Or they're reporting his claim incorrectly. Not sure which.

Maybe.

What do you mean maybe?

We have the financial reports right here: http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=19625436&postcount=90

From FY2000-2006, Sony's gaming division made $2.95 billion. This is where Perry would have got his number from.

From FY2007-2009, Sony's gaming division lost $3.7 billion.

From FY2010 onwards it gets foggy, because Sony rolled a bunch of departments in with the Playstation division.

So unless you think Sony are funnelling away money to somewhere else or are reporting their software royalties in an entirely different department (even though we've got people on GAF who know finance and look at these reports and would be able to pick it up), there's no maybes about it.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

The only one I know of. I remember that being discussed in a thread about the annual earnings.

We just got done with a two page discussion on how much Sony has lost on gaming this generation.

The division that is profitable for them is insurance.