charlequin
Banned
I would bet money that they are not.
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Kotaku Rumor: Xbox 3 has BluRay, Kinect 2 w/ processor, anti-used games, 8x 360 power
- Thread starter Indyana
- Start date
I would bet money that they are not.
The more I think about it I DO think it's more likely an "anti used game system" is going to be about discouraging used sales rather than actively prevent them, much like online passes now, if the rumor is for real. Including an easier way of redeeming extra content, which would in turn also make cards for pre-order/LE content, store credit, and Live Gold subscriptions easier to process. They'd probably want the Kinect standardized, so like speculated they could depend on QR codes or whatever and thus avoid the hassle of putting in numbers all the time.
I thought some EU countries rejected software patents (i.e. government-sponsored monopoly of an idea), didn't hear anything about EULAs.
All this is stuff is purposefully confused under the meaningless "Intellectual Property" umbrella, so it can be hard to find the truth.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I'd triple that bet in your favor.
No company that relies on brick and mortars is going to do that.
Where the PC market goes, consoles follow... eventually.
Jamesways
Member
Mark my words, not only will this anti-used games deal be in effect in the future, but digital downloads will work on time-based access.
You'll buy sports games, or COD/BF, or Forza/GT, etc. and you will lose the access to play it once a new version comes out. The previous iteration will be deemed obsolete, license to play expired, time to force you to buy the new version.
You'll buy sports games, or COD/BF, or Forza/GT, etc. and you will lose the access to play it once a new version comes out. The previous iteration will be deemed obsolete, license to play expired, time to force you to buy the new version.
I don't understand how consumers actually wish having the ability to sell something you bought and OWN should be illegal. It literally makes no sense. Developers don't get revenue from it? Who cares? Guess what, that happens for virtually anything that's sold on the used game market. Videogames aren't any different. Used game sales can also fuel NEW game sales, which a lot of these developers don't seem to understand.
That would be the time the industry MUST die and be restarted, I want something that places value on each game for a long time, rather than treating it as a disposable to be replaced with the new one.
Well, at least Nintendo probably wouldn't follow that, Mario Party's about as close as they get since otherwise that 'new edition' comes with a new console entirely.
I can definitely see developers eventually trying to give us 'limited licenses' to play games, aka you only have a certain amount of time to play this game before your license expires, but you have to pay full price for it. The license should expire right about the time the new edition of the game comes out. Another terrible aspect of DD is how the owner of the platform can simply remove your ability to play your own games. You get too testy on EA forums? EA says you can no longer play those games you paid full price for. This may actually end up being a positive thing for me, pushing me away from games and back into something like art.
I cant imagine the Blu Ray thing to be not true...i consider Microsofts decision to stay with DVDs for the 360 to be the biggest bottleneck for every system this generation.
Now for the "no used games" thingy, i can imagine some kind of online activation like Steam were every game is bound to an account. But some kind of method to make a game unplayable after a certain amount of time will not make it in civilized countries.
Now for the "no used games" thingy, i can imagine some kind of online activation like Steam were every game is bound to an account. But some kind of method to make a game unplayable after a certain amount of time will not make it in civilized countries.
Honestly, for games with yearly iterations just killing the online mode is enough most of the time I bet. People most likely to be seriously invovled and get it every year are also going to be playing online, whereas the single player campaigns that may be worth revisiting later are left untouched (and remain an extra supply of money).
a Master Ninja
Member
There was a time when stores didn't want to carry the iPod because it threatened CD sales. Then the iPod became too big to ignore, so stores carry it and just gouge on accessories.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
a Master Ninja
Member
Oh, I don't think it's practical yet.
But let's say a new Xbox was released, and it was DD only. Then we assume Wal-Mart, ToysRUs, Best Buy, and all the other brick and mortar retailers pitch a fit and refuse to stock it. As long as Microsoft properly marketed it and created demand, it would sell like hotcakes to early adopters on Amazon and any retailers that did bother to carry it. Then Wal-Mart and the like would eventually cave because they want a piece of the action.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Oh, I definitely agree with the assertion that it is gamings future.
I just think some are jumping the gun.
I sure as hell don't want to download a 30 gig game before I can start playing. Maybe when speeds increase it will be feasible.
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
My guesstimation for NXbox specs have been something like the power equivalent of an AMD phenom II X6 (1055 edition) and double the performance of an ATI 5970.
Of course with some tweaks and improvements.
I think having these specs should allow for a nice jump but still allowing for selling the machine "rather" cheap or at least not at a loss.
Also, if kinect2 is included, then something like this makes somehow sense. I don't think we should expect more..
MS (I guess) would want to start selling as many as fast as possible of these babies to establish NXbox as a lead platform for next gen but also to fence of and further establish a leading platform against apple and google TV..
Of course with some tweaks and improvements.
I think having these specs should allow for a nice jump but still allowing for selling the machine "rather" cheap or at least not at a loss.
Also, if kinect2 is included, then something like this makes somehow sense. I don't think we should expect more..
MS (I guess) would want to start selling as many as fast as possible of these babies to establish NXbox as a lead platform for next gen but also to fence of and further establish a leading platform against apple and google TV..
So they sell DD codes on cards through brick and mortar, which lets them carry stock with very limited space requirements and still effectively prevents used game sales. If the margins are right, they'd probably be glad to carry those instead of having to dedicate multiple aisles to boxed copies.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
The Anti-Used game system is popular in this thread....I hope someone from Kotaku sees this.....this carnage they have wrought!
Not every 360 is connected to live.....if it used "must activate online systems" it would effectively kill most of its sales in the third world.
Kotaku just made gaf go 6 pages in seconds.....Some men just want to watch the world burn.
We were never held back by DVDs....RAM was/is a much bigger limitation than the DVD format ever was
And then Nintendo and Sony collect all the sales from MS cutting out a majority of the 360 userbase from being able to use the 720.
Movie quality aside (which has been less frequent anyway with in-game being cheaper, roughly matching them in quality, and having the advantage of consistency), yeah, I can believe that. However once Ram jumps next gen (and I AM expecting 2 gigabytes to be standard, 1 gigabyte at the lowest) we're definitely going to need blu-ray or at least something with a similar capacity. I don't think Microsoft would be dumb enough to NOT go with it, at worst they just take the Wii U approach as has been speculated and it'll be incapable of playing blu-ray movies, but I imagine it'll support that just to make the next Xbox a more appealing multimedia device.
bigtroyjon
Member
Huh?
There are a significant portion of 360s that are never connected to the internet.
Click the button next to "Originally posted by <NAME HERE>" and trace it back to where it started. That was in response to a hypothetical situation where a future Xbox was DD only.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
You can tell this is untrue just by reading it once.
Just curious, do you have any statistics how many Xbox360 are connected to Internet and how many aren't? I am genuinely curious.
I have only founds this statistic so far:
http://grabstats.com/statcategorymain.asp?StatCatID=13
Is says that "% of expected 2012 households with next generation consoles that are connected to the Internet " is 80%, so well, that wouldn't be the majority of the userbase. Especially since this number is constantly rising one could expect a 85-90% number in 2013/14.
Not if all 3 manufacturers do the same.
Not if publishers back the system more because of its stand
NemesisPrime
Banned
Yeah... because those consoles can really pack in those high rez textures.
Only reason for Bluray in this gen is ridiculously long cutcenes. Even in next gen it might not be worth it.
According to MS, there are 20 million subscribers to Live, 10 million of which are active gamers (the other half or so only using movie streaming and the non-gaming apps), with the highest peaks being about 1.5 / 2 million of them online concurrently.
There are (roughly) 40 million 360s.
So, the rough math here tells me that the amount of people that connect their 360 to the internet to play games is 25%, which is roughly how many people who buy the average 360 game play it online.
Source: CES 2010
The only way online activation would work in a mass market console is if each 720 comes with a cell phone chip and can access an activation server for free by contacting the nearest tower.
This slightly later piece
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/02/xbox-live-stats-about-half-of-subscribers-pay-for-gold-3-hou/
says that out of the 40 million 360s, roughly only 13 million pay for gold.
I think this point CAN blow up in their face actually. Maybe Sony would fall over, not unless Japan doesn't follow it AND somehow manages to win popular support back for their software like in prior generations, but Nintendo's gone entire generations when the most appealing games were their own. I'm not sure the mass market would care enough, but it DOES seem possible that if ONLY Microsoft does this, AND publishers here primarily put their games on Xbox and PC, people will largely just go to PC for those games with one of the biggest console conveniences killed, and Wii U for the console fare to play and share with friends.
Though, I also imagine the mass market PROBABLY doesn't care that much about putting in codes for every game. I'm curious to know how many of those online passes get redeemed, for example. I can imagine a significant minority sort of "muscles through", sticking the game in and playing it, either ignoring the missing content they should have or buying the online pass when it wasn't necessary.
Winnie the Pimp
Member
anti used games is suicide for MS?
watch them launch the thing with the newest Call of Dudebro game and they will flock to stores to buy it regardless
watch them launch the thing with the newest Call of Dudebro game and they will flock to stores to buy it regardless
Beer Monkey
Member
The idea of buying a console disc in a store and taking it home and finding out you can't play it because your internet is acting up (or LIVE or PSN is acting up, and we all know THAT can happen for weeks), frankly, absurd to me. I don't see that happening.
I just don't see a mainstream game console that is required to be connected to the internet. Not just for network reliability purposes, but because not everyone has broadband or considers it to be part of the console experience.
I just don't see a mainstream game console that is required to be connected to the internet. Not just for network reliability purposes, but because not everyone has broadband or considers it to be part of the console experience.
Phonomezer
Banned
There 40 million LIVE users as of CES 2012.
Most people will be taken by surprise and not know until they buy it and try trading games, not unless GameStop stocks it but urges employees to clarify they won't be allowed to trade games in. Even then Walmart won't give a crap, even if the employees are well versed in that it's irrelevant to their sales.anti used games is suicide for MS?
watch them launch the thing with the newest Call of Dudebro game and they will flock to stores to buy it regardless
I think the real test won't be the first year or two, but whether momentum suddenly nose dives because enough people decided "screw this, I want to share my games" and got a different console.
That's still about a 66% rate, and assuming a very small percentage are from people sharing a console or making extra accounts for other regions (or that they're counterbalanced by a similar percentage being replacement units). It'd keep climbing, I'm sure, might even be viable with the next NEXT generation, but I think if they require online activation in the next one without using a 3G chip or whatever it'll blow up in their face, badly.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Yep, though Wii and PC ensured that DVD remained the baseline standard because no other platform in the world outside of Sony's really supports Blu Ray. It was doomed to be the odd man out in 99.9% of all multi-platform releases. Coupled with the less than dominating sales numbers that the platform puts up and you've got a situation where no one benefits from spending extra effort, money, and time to really take advantage of the extra space. It's been fantastic for cramming a lot of HD re-releases together on a single disc, though.
Actually, both Wii and PC are irrelevant. The Wii's power level is so fundamentally different most games are exclusive either to that or PS3/360/PC, and most that cross over aren't meant to take up THAT much space anyway. As for PC, when was the last time major PC games ran off a disc? They make you install the full game, so the solution to having a blu-ray sized game put on PC is to throw more DVDs at it. You'll install it fully, so they're not going to sweat midgame disc swapping like they would (and have) on 360. Hell, quite a few games ARE 10+, even 20+ gigabytes on PC, including console titles!
Also, the 360 is using DVD. The Wii and the 360 have the same DVD capacity.
So at this point, MS either joins the blu ray bandwagon (or at least the format, like Nintendo did) or they'll go with DVD. At which point there'd be this interesting situation where developers would probably pack a bunch of hi-res textures on the PS3/4 and Wii U release of a game and then only include the downsized ones on the 720 version.
tl;dr MS basically has to go with BR at this point whether they like it or not.
Fourth time, people don't seem to pick it up
MS is probably just going stream line the current publisher driven online passes. They are going to create a method in which publishers can do online passes. They'll probably introduce a new TRC: 'sure you can do (online) passes, but you'll have to do it through us.'
Publishers still have the choice to do it, or don't.
This covers the Kotaku rumour and is a lot more reasonable and likely to happen than mandatory online passes on every game...
MS is probably just going stream line the current publisher driven online passes. They are going to create a method in which publishers can do online passes. They'll probably introduce a new TRC: 'sure you can do (online) passes, but you'll have to do it through us.'
Publishers still have the choice to do it, or don't.
This covers the Kotaku rumour and is a lot more reasonable and likely to happen than mandatory online passes on every game...
Rhazer Fusion
Member
If that is the case, not only will I quit on future/current gaming, but I predict the industry could end up suffering from a miserable, agonizing death. I still don't think Microsoft would do anything that diabolical, would they? Then again, it seems like everytime a company reaches their third system, it experiences what I call the "third-system curse" essentially meaning a fatal or near fatal mistake such as $600, cartridge format, severe programming difficulties, etc). At the rate we are going, nothing really surprises me anymore.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Yeah, okay. I was basically posting in support of the assertion that Blu Ray has, this generation, brought nothing substantial to gaming or PS3 except to help popularize a new video disc standard for movies. All of these wonderful things that were talked about to have happened as a result of supporting this new format due to the extreme data capacity it brings to the table have basically fizzled for the most part due to the fact that no one else is supporting it which allows developers and publishers to basically ignore anything above the baseline. Only a few third party titles have bothered and Sony's first party titles, of course, have been pushed to show off the benefits of Sony's chosen format yet it comes off as not nearly as substantial as initially claimed, even six years into its lifespan. Multiple DVDs simply isn't a big deal on any platform that relies upon it and you know it's true when publishers are more likely to put out more DVD discs instead of going to a single Blu Ray or even helping to promote the format as a successor to DVD for their benefit (and ours). It simply doesn't seem to factor in enough for them to care. All signs point to an increasingly online/digital-only gaming market, so yes, disc capacity means a lot less than it used to which only serves to further blunt the value of Blu Ray as memory, bandwidth and its availability scale down in cost much better than asking people to pay for material cost of physical product that must also incur a shipping and storage cost as well as a delay compared to digital's current multi-day pre-zero day pre-load. Then there's the retailer promotional considerations and a cut of sales.
Before I started rambling a bit there, I guess I just wanted to say, fine, I can agree with that. X360 being DVD-based, all by itself, basically held Blu Ray back. That, or Sony just failed to effectively evangelize and support the unique features of the format among third parties by not better incentivizing the full use of its capacity. If it was as easy as people say it is to take advantage of the format, why hasn't it happened?
Not saying that MS won't go Blu next gen, but I could see them reasoning that too much of the market already have Blu Ray players in their homes, so it might be better to not necessarily spend the money it takes to support BR movie playback and instead go for a custom disc (BR-derived or related or not) that seeks to address the weaknesses of the BR format specifically for games and other interactive applications. Perhaps support will be there in the form of DLNA support for controlling your Blu Ray player on a network but I'd think MS would favor putting more money into the silicon than into a potentially relatively high fixed cost disc drive and associated license fees for its movie playback. I'd love for it to be true, but a newer spec BR is a safe guess, certainly.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
At 720p, 30fps....absolutely.
IMO the only real thing holding back current gen from doing the Samaritan demo is the lack of DX11 and accompanying shader models.
A variant or alternative to Apex physics is gonna be needed if we are gonna simulate the cloth exactly as in the demo....but really the Samaritan Demo isnt as out of reach as people make it out to be.
Once console devs have the power of DX11 alot of the tricks used to make the Samaritan look as good as it does will become standard.
Oww i absolutely believe Microsoft will be using a higher capacity storage medium and will def have a alot more RAM, i was just point out that DVD wasnt really holding us back.
Especially as you said, with alot of games using in engine cutscenes...its just quite a few people believe that the DVD format was somehow causing games this gen to be shittier or something. More space for higher quality textures would still be gimped by a lack of ram to load those texture to/from.
The Format was never really a problem
bigtroyjon
Member
Not anywhere close a majority though. It's also hard to determine how many never connected due to wifi costing $100. Early adopters are they type of people who have internet access so it's really not an issue until much later in the life of the console at which point who knows what the technology situation will be like.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Forcing online connectivity will essentially kill any sales they were hoping on getting from here:
Japan isnt buying this thing already....I dont know Broadband connectivity stats of the US, UK and/or Ukraine but im pretty sure forcing online connectivity will kill a "sizable" portion of sales.
Judging from number of Live user vs Console sold id say the offline community is pretty large/sizeable and makes this seem more like a joke;
35 million XBL users vs 56 million Xbex out there.
Thats 21 million users they would be effectively alienating*
If they implement this they are effectively sending this thing through a gauntlet.....its gonna have such a massive con on its pros and cons list that it succeeding would be nothing short of a miracle.
Why make the product suffer so....what real benefit does MS get from this.....doesnt the used game market help MS?
e.g I might as well buy a 360 and every piece of DLC available for game X then save on the physical games.
bigtroyjon
Member
Forcing online connectivity will essentially kill any sales they were hoping on getting from here:
Japan isnt buying this thing already....I dont know Broadband connectivity stats of the US, UK and/or Ukraine but im pretty sure forcing online connectivity will kill a "sizable" portion of sales.
If they implement this they are effectively sending this thing through a gauntlet.....its gonna have such a massive con on its pros and cons list that it succeeding would be nothing short of a miracle.
Why make the product suffer so....what real benefit does MS get from this.....doesnt the used game market help MS?
e.g I might as well buy a 360 and every piece of DLC available for game X then save on the physical games.
40 million active live accounts and 66 million shipped consoles suggests that online connectivity isn't much of an issue, especially considering 2/3 of those consoles didn't come with wifi. People without internet access won't be buying the console for a long time anyway and will likely be the ones buying the $100 360's over the next 3-5 years.
If they choose to not do this, it won't be because people can't hook up their consoles to the net.
Agreed. We don't know how far the anti-used game policy will go, but Grave is talking about the most extreme measure that can be taken to prevent it; block games from being used on other consoles then your own. The thing though, none of it is mentioned in the rumour; It's just states that MS is looking into the matter of preventing it. The idea behind "a game only locked to your console" actually spawned in this thread and kind of got out of hand.
This can ether mean the following:
a) Online pass; which makes sense and has been tested this gen.
b) Locked MP to one account; drastic but an option.
c) Time-limit for MP for consoles/profiles; an option, but then again could be linked with the online pass.
brain_stew
Member
Its around 3x faster than the rumoured 6670.
26/66 ~= 40%, how is ignoring that not much of an issue?
Well, that works fine for some genres/game types, but it can't cut it for everything forever. Not to mention sometimes they get kind of annoying like in Star Ocean 4 apparently did and ME2 mildly so.
Honestly, I don't think it's been a big deal this generation, as pointed out other factors like ram have been holding us back. I do think we're reaching the point however where DVDs just aren't enough, given that Microsoft had to overhaul their (possibly ridiculous?) anti-piracy measures to not be as much of a space hog as they were and give an extra gigabyte or so to use, and that we're seeing more and more games that are actually using more than one disc, and not just ones like Rage that do the mega texture thing. And while digital distribution CAN make it less of a sticking point... man, that's still 20 gigabytes, you'll need decent enough bandwidth to download that reasonably fast, and even putting that aside you're still going to need large hard drives to store the games if that'll be the primary means of delivery (and if you must install games).
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Jesus, if these rumours of a 6670 powered follow up are true, all of a sudden a Wii U looks more and more appealing, a console i had previously dismissed as Nintendo's Dreamcast level brain fart, simply because of the fact i trust Nintendo Dev teams to deliver better games with very limited hardware, rather than the numerous 3rd party devs that will be on Microsoft's underpowered box of fail.
I'm guessing the thought process is that it's still 40 million, and that progress dictates leaving some behind. Thing is, even in a best case scenario that'd still be enough to throw the next Xbox into a solid 3rd place if Sony/Nintendo's next systems do exactly as well as their current ones, and that's not factoring in people who lost interest in the meantime or are disgusted with this practice and go with someone else. And I don't think shareholders like the idea of marketshare drastically dropping over the vanity of ensuring each game sold is new.
Yeah, it's why I think if this is true it's simply standardizing/streamlining online passes and similar new copy DLC offers, rather than a full blown lockdown of the game.