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[Satchel]

Well... not exactly.

I'd say the best way would be to remove severe OS bloat more than your scenario. Just seems to be an odd way to go under the RAM limits as they are. I don't think either MS and Sony if they launch in late 2013 are seriously thinking about anything more than 2 gigs of quick RAM. RAM density issues would make incorporating more problematic. Feasible, but very costly.

I doubt devs would be too happy with 1 gig of GDDR5, and two gigs of DDR3 (mainly used for the OS at that). Games would have to be designed primarily under the constraints of the 1 gig. Splits pools always end up being problematic in the end. It hampered more than a few PS3 games because of it.

But my hypothetical (see: fantastical) scenario, has the consoles with 8GB (hell even 4GB) of dedicated unified ram, and then an extra separate 1GB or 2GB dedicated to the OS.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

But my hypothetical (see: fantastical) scenario, has the consoles with 8GB (hell even 4GB) of dedicated unified ram, and then an extra separate 1GB or 2GB dedicated to the OS.

I could see 4 gigs total if they want to risk the costs and fallibility of new tech.

But that's total and still might be a pipedream. Everything I've seen seriously points to 2 gigs total. 3 gigs if it's a split pool. And that could be really limited because of the reliance on slow RAM. I still see 2 gigs of GDDR5 being most likely. Very fast, and sizable.

Think about it this way. Almost all games are designed under the constraints of 512MB of RAM or less. This is 4x that.

 

[StevieP]

But my hypothetical (see: fantastical) scenario, has the consoles with 2GB of GDDR5 dedicated unified ram, and then an extra separate 1GB or 2GB of DDR3 dedicated to the OS.

It's fantastical alright. haha

I fixed it for you, and even that is overly complicated design that would drastically increase the complexity of the motherboard.

 

[Satchel]

Think about it this way. Almost all games are designed under the constraints of 512MB of RAM or less. This is 4x that.

But in all fairness, if you look at game development time, and from the point the hardware was finalised, we're talking about an 8 year gap, so while yeah, 2GB is 4 times what we have now, it's 4 times 8 years later.

I still think 4GB is a real possibility. 50/50 chance at best at this point. Only because of how long it's actually been since the last hardware was finalised and the pace at which that sort of tech has progressed in that time.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

But in all fairness, if you look at game development time, and from the point the hardware was finalised, we're talking about an 8 year gap, so while yeah, 2GB is 4 times what we have now, it's 4 times 8 years later.

I still think 4GB is a real possibility. 50/50 chance at best at this point. Only because of how long it's actually been since the last hardware was finalised and the pace at which that sort of tech has progressed in that time.

Stevie covered another portion of the issue.

Listen I'd be all for it if they can pull it off without having to charge $599. But it's safer to shoot lower. Fans weren't exactly happy the PS3 or 360 had 512MB of RAM until Epic came out and said "Could have been 256MB! Thank us for that!"

 

[StevieP]

But in all fairness, if you look at game development time, and from the point the hardware was finalised, we're talking about an 8 year gap, so while yeah, 2GB is 4 times what we have now, it's 4 times 8 years later.

I still think 4GB is a real possibility. 50/50 chance at best at this point. Only because of how long it's actually been since the last hardware was finalised and the pace at which that sort of tech has progressed in that time.

I have a feeling the next console cycle is going to be a standard 5-yearish type, simply because the jump in tech will be smaller on all fronts this time around (than the massive jump it was for this gen). Also forgot to mention... why would you need 1 or 2GB dedicated for the OS? You shouldn't need more than 256mb for a modern console OS.

Wouldn't even 1GB essentially give us that?

Yes, but... it's not as simple as that. You could have 1080p 60fps games on today's HD consoles. The reason you don't is the developers (specifically, wanting to push visual boundaries... a great deal of this generation's top games are SubHD or even close to SD!). The reason you won't next gen will also be the developers. Edit: let me clarify that the current HD systems have many bottlenecks (memory is one of them) and that IQ goes up by removing some of these bottlenecks. But what I really mean is that developers will always sacrifice things like framerate and resolution for teh shiny. 1080p60fps is... well aside from simpler looking games (NSMB, LBP, CoD, etc) a pipe dream. Edit 2: today's games in 1080p60fps? Without painting too broad a brush - some of them, sure (would benefit from having more VRAM).

 

[Satchel]

Stevie covered another portion of the issue.

Listen I'd be all for it if they can pull it off without having to charge $599. But it's safer to shoot lower. Fans weren't exactly happy the PS3 or 360 had 512MB of RAM until Epic came out and said "Could have been 256MB! Thank us for that!"

No doubt, don't get me wrong, I'm one of the proponents for having the next gen of consoles having tech that basically gives us today's visuals with full AA, 1080p at 60 frames.

Wouldn't even 1GB essentially give us that? combined with all the other stuff of course(better CPU/GPU etc)

Yes, but... it's not as simple as that. You could have 1080p 60fps games on today's HD consoles. The reason you don't is the developers (specifically, wanting to push visual boundaries... a great deal of this generation's top games are SubHD or even close to SD!). The reason you won't next gen will also be the developers.

I'm aware of that, well aware. I'm just saying, that purely from a tech standpoint, wouldn't 1GB of RAM with an improved CPU/GPU give us today's visuals at 60fps/1080p/fullAA?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Now for a little bit of whimsy.

Total system RAM doesn't mean much to me. 1 gig would make me giddy (even the WiiU is likely to have more) but what I'm really looking for is large eDram. I want transparencies and particles all over this bitch. WiiU seems to have 32MB. Impressive. 3x the last console king the 360.

If MS fits 64MB eDram I will plotz.

No doubt, don't get me wrong, I'm one of the proponents for having the next gen of consoles having tech that basically gives us today's visuals with full AA, 1080p at 60 frames.

Wouldn't even 1GB essentially give us that? combined with all the other stuff of course(better CPU/GPU etc)



I'm aware of that, well aware. I'm just saying, that purely from a tech standpoint, wouldn't 1GB of RAM with an improved CPU/GPU give us today's visuals at 60fps/1080p/fullAA?

eDram or really any on GPU RAM would be more important for that.

Don't ask me to pull out the math someone did. Math and me don't mix well.

 

[Satchel]

Now for a little bit of whimsy.

Total system RAM doesn't mean much to me. 1 gig would make me giddy (even the WiiU is likely to have more) but what I'm really looking for is large eDram. I want transparencies and particles all over this bitch. WiiU seems to have 32MB. Impressive. 3x the last console king the 360.

If MS fits 64MB eDram I will plotz.

Ok, now we're in a whole other realm of magic there.

I was trying to keep things fairly simple, but you had to go all fancy on me.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Now for a little bit of whimsy.

Total system RAM doesn't mean much to me. 1 gig would make me giddy (even the WiiU is likely to have more) but what I'm really looking for is large eDram. I want transparencies and particles all over this bitch. WiiU seems to have 32MB. Impressive. 3x the last console king the 360.

If MS fits 64MB eDram I will plotz.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if ms designs the soc chip to have a shared eDram. I actually think this is the whole reason why ms is going down the soc route.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Ok, now we're in a whole other realm of magic there.

I was trying to keep things fairly simple, but you had to go all fancy on me.

That 10MB of eDram in the 360 is part of the reason tons of smoke and other particle and transparency based effects don't bog it down, but can have serious issues on the PS3.

 

[Satchel]

It'll be interesting to see what happens if ms designs the soc chip to have a shared eDram. I actually think this is the whole reason why ms is going down the soc route.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm very noobie at this stuff but I find it interesting none the less, but is soc kinda like the A4?

 

[Postman]

That 10MB of eDram in the 360 is part of the reason tons of smoke and other particle and transparency based effects don't bog it down, but can have serious issues on the PS3.

is that why most 360 games have that horrible dithered transparency fade in?

 

[DieH@rd]

Now for a little bit of whimsy.

Total system RAM doesn't mean much to me. 1 gig would make me giddy (even the WiiU is likely to have more) but what I'm really looking for is large eDram. I want transparencies and particles all over this bitch. WiiU seems to have 32MB. Impressive. 3x the last console king the 360.

B3D crowd described the advantages and disadvantages of EDRAM, and many of them do not want it in next xbox if they are gona repeat the same mistakes again. Small amount of edram pushed the current games hard into the sub 720p resolutions, and 64mb that is required for highend 1080p gaming is very expensive.

Go and read last 20ish pages of "The Next Generation Console Tech " thread there.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm very noobie at this stuff but I find it interesting none the less, but is soc kinda like the A4?

similar yes.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

is that why most 360 games have that horrible dithered transparency fade in?

Possibly?

Hah!

I must admit I'm no programmer. Really more at home in the PS2, Xbox, and GCN era tech. I'm still learning the inner workings of newer tech. And even then I've got the most basic grasp of others here.

 

[Auto_aim1]

eDRAM is not necessary though, they could use that silicon budget elsewhere tbh.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

B3D crowd described the advantages and disadvantages of EDRAM, and many of them do not want it in next xbox if they are gona repeat the same mistakes again. Small amount of edram pushed the current games hard into the sub 720p resolutions, and 64mb that is required for highend 1080p gaming is very expensive.

Go and read last 20ish pages of "The Next Generation Console Tech " thread there.

I really should use my account over there more often. But if people can want 8 gigs I can want needlessly expensive eDram dammit!

 

[les papillons sexuels]

eDRAM is not necessary though, they could use that silicon budget elsewhere tbh.

it's not about necessity it's about ease.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I dip into BY3D occasionally but it appears they are behind NeoGAF in investigating/reading articles about Sony Tech. Patsu just posted:

Interview: Masaaki Tsuruta, Sony Computer Entertainment (CTO):http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/12/maasaki-tsu-interview.cfm

Titanio runs a GAF discussion thread here, and has already picked out the highlights:

Sony outlines a long term roadmap for Playstation tech: 8K, 300fps, 3D chips and cats
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=458527

... so I'll just link to his work !

Many posting in this thread have commented on "Sony outlines a long term roadmap for Playstation tech: 8K, 300fps, 3D chips and cats." but have apparently not digested what it's saying or read previous posts on Sony plans like this one; http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=422931 which supports it.

Sony has tabled, deferred, put off PS4 production until tech reaches a point matching their long range roadmap. GPU and die size being the biggest issues. 20nm, 8K, 300fps and 3D chips are mentioned all to give CPU and GPU the power for a next generation platform. Programmable DSP to meet Augmented Reality sensor needs that haven't been invented yet.

Sony has plans to use the cell and a next generation cell in Medical Imaging (8K resolution or higher needed). Mentioned was 3D (Stacking like on like being easier) chips for memory but this would work equally well in stacking like on like SPUs provided a small die size to keep them energy and waste heat efficient.

The second article by post date mentions 7 years after the PS3 release for a PS4 release which would be about 2014. IBM might reach 20nm by 2014 as they were working at 45nm in 2009, PS3 slim was taped by IBM @ 45nm and produced in the Sony Nagasaki plant. Intel has plans for 22nm next year and has mentioned stacking (3D) for that generation. IBM might have a similar roadmap.

Remember the first article said that Sony would not produce a 32nm Cell PS3 and that has been confirmed, they are skipping a couple of die sizes and will retool the Sony Nagasaki plant when technology allows a die size that matches their long range roadmap.

GPU? Is the biggest issue and we know the least about Sony plans. If they are going to have solutions for Medical imaging they will want a CPU and a GPU they can use and manufacture themselves like they did the Nvidia RSX. GPUs are just a massive number of simple (3D like on like again) parallel (200+) processors that must run at slower clock speeds because they have heat issues. 20nm and 3D stacking will probably be in a PS4 GPU.

PS3 and PS4 gives Sony an economy of scale to write off development, tooling and startup manufacturing costs for next generation CPU and GPU necessary for 4K (PS3) and 8K (PS4) video (not game rendering). This gives them an advantage guaranteeing them CE market share that can not be taken away by Korea and China with their lower labor costs and government subsidies.

In this thread several are calling Sony stupid for releasing a PS3 with blu-ray player and Cell processor as that forced a higher price for the PS3 even with Sony selling the PS3 at a loss. I think the long view has Sony writing off the costs as necessary to their long range survival. Microsoft, a Software company, is not in a long range fight for their survival and I think the OP is probably accurate:

PlayStation 4's early technical specifications are looking "more powerful" than those of Microsoft's next-generation Xbox targets, according to PSM3's development sources. PSM3 report points to Xbox launch "months" before PlayStation

12 months maybe...depending on Tech advancements?

Also mentioned in the BY3D thread was Hirari becoming Sony's president in April 2012. Sony is currently at rock bottom even after Stringers downsizing, Hirari may get credit for the potential business upturn driven by the Sony ecosystem started by Stringer that goes on line Spring 2012 (April?). The timing for Hirari becoming President (April) is too convenient to not deserve comment. Does the Sony board want a Japanese President (Hirari) when this major upturn takes place? PS Suite is scheduled for Spring release and the PS3 is scheduled to have Playstation memories Studio (Spring) and speculated to have a large firmware update enabling Network features similar to those in the Vita (mentioned in a developer SDK). Mentioned by Verizon was RVU support in the PS3 which I think is going to occur at the same time (Spring).

We have had two Sony regional reps make statements in the last 8 months that there are many "surprises for the PS3" & "Market leading features" coming beginning 2012 that News reporters can write about. These "Market leading features" will help keep the PS3 selling when WiiU and next generation Xbox are released.

What are the "Market leading features"? It's not RVU as the Xbox already has that....integration between applications as seen in the Vita...maybe. Voice recognition (mentioned as coming in Vita), No...Microsoft has that in the Xbox. A new browser....possible as Xbox doesn't have one and the Sony webkit disclosure last March 2011 did have a browser history API added by Sony which can only be used by a browser front end. Skype.....Xbox has that, how about Google Chat...that's a possible and there are several demos of Google Chat in a browser that allow desktop sharing, picture sharing and possibly video clip (home movie) sharing.

We know about Playmemories Studio that allows editing of video on the PS3 as well as zooming into video; that's market leading. Playview or Infinite Picture Zooming is the same as Flash or Silverlight DeepZoom so that's not market leading.

How about 4K video support, market leading and probably not a Xbox feature.

h.265 (HEVC) can be used for IPTV reducing bitrate needed and with Sony algorithms they are now mentioning as cleaning up low bitrate noise, they will have the best pictures with IPTV.

 

[Melchiah]

Well, I know opinions really differ on stuff like Kinect and Wii, but when I look at this current generation innovation was what pulled companies up. The wiimote came out of left field and gave Nintendo the top spot. Xbox had Live (social networking essentially) to establish their market and Kinect gave them a big boost later on. *Something* is causing people to buy certain consoles more than others. Sony needs something to differentiate themselves not just from their immediate competitors, but from 'old' technology.

The things is, the PS3 and Xbox have their sales neck-to-neck, so I dunno what's the "innovation" that's supposed to pull them apart?

From the Sony's Fiscal Year Reports thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461642

FY 2011

         (Ap-Jn)11    (Jl-Sp)11    (Oc-Dc)11  (Ja-Mr)12    FY 2011     

360        1.7          2.3           8.2        -          12.2

PS3        1.8          3.7           6.5        -          12.0

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sony Rises on Optimism Hirai Will Rebuild Company: Tokyo Mover That confirms it for me. Hirari will get credit for the Sony Ecosystem Stringer has set in place and is to be "Turned on" in the PS3 this Spring.

It's not just Sony that is going to see new features; h.265, webkit2, Gstreamer 1.0, RVU, Ice Cream Sandwich (New Android OS), DLNA 1.5 and Direct Connect WiFi are hitting for the most part the first of 2012 (h.265 working draft to be published this month).

Many of the above features were proposed in 2008 and saw Sony preparing for them in 2009. For instance, PS3 Firmware 3.0 (2009) had the framework to support webkit and IPTV in 2009 which also saw DTCP-IP DRM protection for streaming media in the home needed by RVU 2 months later but leaked it was coming just before 3.0 was released.

Sony job postings were looking for Webkit developers for Rich Internet Applications for the PS3 in May 2011 I think. Sony will have had 10 months to prepare RIA applications for the PS3 by this Spring 2012.

 

[DieH@rd]

I dip into BY3D occasionally but it appears they are behind NeoGAF in investigating/reading articles about Sony Tech. Patsu just posted:[/B]

I posted there about sony future tech the same day the info apeared on gaf.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I posted there about Sony future tech the same day the info apeared on gaf.

I'm dipping into the Console forum on BY3D and didn't notice your post. I gather neither did Patsu. Could you PM me a link.

I'm not seeing it properly digested anywhere....How did BY3D receive the information? There are a few "Professionals" in the industry there and on NeoGAF. I sometimes notice a complete absence of comments from them which would indicate getting too close to NDAs or the thread and possibly my comments are too off the mark to comment on.

Found it: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1611522&postcount=9069 What I thought, they jumped to conclusions and didn't think through what the article was saying. The OP on NeoGAF did a good job clearing up the 300 FPS issue (in patsu's post he called it a budget, where 300FPS is divided among different views or video streams being processed.) Sony white papers are supporting what to do with the added bandwidth made available with h.264 and h.265 and one is multi-view.

 

[spwolf]

i think some people are way too optimistic on the specs, especially RAM. We would do well if they add 2 GB in next gen. Dont forget that consoles sell the best under $200 price, this is not smart phone business. Anything that will save them money in the long run will be looked at.

 

[Log4Girlz]

i think some people are way too optimistic on the specs, especially RAM. We would do well if they add 2 GB in next gen. Dont forget that consoles sell the best under $200 price, this is not smart phone business. Anything that will save them money in the long run will be looked at.

I think Sony will be the most expensive again next gen and try to add value for money. Sure, they can make a cheap system with cell phone parts but I don't see that as apart of their DNA.

 

[Dueck]

What annoys me more than the "who is more powerful" thing is the fact that games are always made for the lowest common denominator (within reason), so the PS4 won't end up looking much better anyways. Especially if MS sticks with their awful licensing agreement (requiring them to essentially not be left with inferior software).

 

[Punchpudding]

The things is, the PS3 and Xbox have their sales neck-to-neck, so I dunno what's the "innovation" that's supposed to pull them apart?

From the Sony's Fiscal Year Reports thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461642

That's true, bad choice of words on my part. In the first part of my post I tried to use the words 'pull up' because something helped MS catch up with the rest of the field and helped take a few consumers from the Sony camp.

Nintendo went from last to first based on a new control scheme. MS passed Sony based on, IMO, Xbox live, new dashboard features, and attention to detail (eg. controller ergonomics).

I think if Sony sits still again and just ups the power while Nintendo brings the tablet idea and MS brings Kinect, they might be at a disadvantage.

 

[bgassassin]

That's true, bad choice of words on my part. In the first part of my post I tried to use the words 'pull up' because something helped MS catch up with the rest of the field and helped take a few consumers from the Sony camp.

Nintendo went from last to first based on a new control scheme. MS passed Sony based on, IMO, Xbox live, new dashboard features, and attention to detail (eg. controller ergonomics).

I think if Sony sits still again and just ups the power while Nintendo brings the tablet idea and MS brings Kinect, they might be at a disadvantage.

I think MS passed Sony because of Sony's screw up in the beginning. 360 provides some nice things, but Sony beat themselves more than MS beat Sony.

 

[Marco1]

What annoys me more than the "who is more powerful" thing is the fact that games are always made for the lowest common denominator (within reason), so the PS4 won't end up looking much better anyways. Especially if MS sticks with their awful licensing agreement (requiring them to essentially not be left with inferior software).

Do you seriously think this happens?

 

[BradleyLove]

What annoys me more than the "who is more powerful" thing is the fact that games are always made for the lowest common denominator (within reason), so the PS4 won't end up looking much better anyways. Especially if MS sticks with their awful licensing agreement (requiring them to essentially not be left with inferior software).

Despite owning an Xbox, then a 360 (as well as PS2 and PS3), this sums MS's attitude perfectly.

Rather than reward people who bought an Xbox (unless you pay for Gold of course), they prefer to penalise those who didn't.

And as for their ridiculous "if it's appeared on another platform first, we don't want it" policy, they're only punishing their own userbase by denying them potentially great games.

I just don't get MS's approach. It's all stick and no carrot. Unless you pay for the carrot.

 

[Massa]

Am I the only one who wants the next Playstation to be a 10-inch 720p tablet with HDMI out, the same OS as the Vita but obviously with a more powerful CPU/GPU? I don't really see the need for another box.

 

[TAJ]

Am I the only one who wants the next Playstation to be a 10-inch 720p tablet with HDMI out, the same OS as the Vita but obviously with a more powerful CPU/GPU? I don't really see the need for another box.

Basically, you want an expensive and weak PS4 so it can double as a portable? Are you a travelling salesman?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Am I the only one who wants the next Playstation to be a 10-inch 720p tablet with HDMI out, the same OS as the Vita but obviously with a more powerful CPU/GPU? I don't really see the need for another box.

Probably.

With Vita, iPad 3, Wii U, etc.... I frankly don't see the need for another portable.

I'd rather have all the resources devoted towards making a powerful machine.

 

[TAJ]

Hell, I wouldn't mind if the new consoles were behemoths. It would let Sony and MS make them more powerful and/or more reliable. The Japanese would hate it, but they're irrelevant anyway.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Am I the only one who wants the next Playstation to be a 10-inch 720p tablet with HDMI out, the same OS as the Vita but obviously with a more powerful CPU/GPU? I don't really see the need for another box.

Yea you are.

 

[Giant Panda]

Am I the only one who wants the next Playstation to be a 10-inch 720p tablet with HDMI out, the same OS as the Vita but obviously with a more powerful CPU/GPU? I don't really see the need for another box.

That would have to compete in the over crowded tablet market though. PS4 needs to be different from most competitors IMO, as well as different from past generations. I hope they don't stick with Dual Shock.

 

[Massa]

Basically, you want an expensive and weak PS4 so it can double as a portable? Are you a travelling salesman?

Haha, not really.

PS4 aside for a second, the Vita is a platform with enormous potential for Sony. They basically built an OS from scratch, they're building a developer platform that goes beyond games and using it on a single device for the next 5 years would be beyond stupid.

Using it in a phone or tablet form is just a matter of time imo. And if tablets continue to evolve at this pace then you could have a pretty powerful gaming system. Games delivered digitally, working on multiple devices... that's very exciting.

I think a cheap box TV-only version of that platform is more likely than an expensive, powerful console with the same old dual shock controller.

That would have to compete in the over crowded tablet market though. PS4 needs to be different from most competitors IMO, as well as different from past generations. I hope they don't stick with Dual Shock.

I would say the tablet market is just in its infancy, there's a lot of potential for innovative products in that space and Sony has a lot to bring to it with their gaming expertise. It's certainly a more interesting strategy than building yet another shitty Android or Windows 8 tablet like every other electronics manufacturer.

 

[charlequin]

Am I the only one who wants the next Playstation to be a 10-inch 720p tablet with HDMI out, the same OS as the Vita but obviously with a more powerful CPU/GPU? I don't really see the need for another box.

I figure there's basically a 0% chance the PS4 will be anything like this but a nearly 100% chance that consoles in general will converge on this within the decade (so possibly in place of PS5.)

 

[subversus]

I figure there's basically a 0% chance the PS4 will be anything like this but a nearly 100% chance that consoles in general will converge on this within the decade (so possibly in place of PS5.)

I agree. But I would like PS4 to be like that.

 

[Punchpudding]

I think MS passed Sony because of Sony's screw up in the beginning. 360 provides some nice things, but Sony beat themselves more than MS beat Sony.

Well sure, and IMO one of those screw ups was that they didn't bring anything innovative to the table while the only real risk they took was trying to use the PS3 as a trojan horse to win the format war.

To me, whether or not MS did anything special this gen is debatable but Sony is now in a position where *they* are the ones trying to pass the other guys... can they do it by releasing just another tried and true console with no new defining features?

 

[charlequin]

I agree. But I would like PS4 to be like that.

I definitely welcome our future Unified Handheld Tablet Console overlords.

 

[Gravijah]

I definitely welcome our future Unified Handheld Tablet Console overlords.

the future is cloud computing for everyone

 

[jeff_rigby]

In my opinion 300FPS and 8K are not PS5 specs but are design goals for a PS4 for AR and Medical Imaging. OLED makes this a reality in 2 years or so. Medical imaging high res glasses with head tracking as well as 8K monitors with zooming should sell even at very high prices with 1080P AR 3-D glasses now possible with a wired connection, wireless with h.265 compression and something like a cell processor in the headset.


IBM and Stacking chips This generation 3D stacking with a unique feature, gluing layers together with special glue to dissipate heat.

Such stacking would allow for dramatically higher levels of integration for information technology and consumer electronics applications. Processors could be tightly packed with memory and networking, for example, into a “brick” of silicon that would create a computer chip 1,000 times faster than today’s fastest microprocessor enabling more powerful smartphones, tablets, computers and gaming devices.

- 'Tsuruta-san picked out emerging ‘through silicon via’ designs. These stack chips with interconnects running vertically through them to reduce length, raise performance and reduce power consumption.'
- 'Tsuruta-san has noted the difficulties in achieving viable yields at 28nm, though he believes that these problems are now moving towards a resolution.'
- Tsuruta: "We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”

A major PS3 price reduction will wait for the Nagasaki plant retool to support a smaller die size and stacking and the price reduction using this technology could be significant. Labor costs in producing a Slimmer slim using Stacking would be reduced to the point that Sony could produce a PS3, PS4 and SOME future CE products in Japan economically rather than shipping to China for manufacture. BUT 2014, maybe slightly before for the Nagasaki retool So cheaper PS3 slim will wait for that.

I can see Sony using a PS3 slimmer slim as a proof of concept and having it come out before the PS4. So too many variables...die size etc. to predict.

Remember Sony announced they were skipping the next smaller die process for the PS3 for some unannounced reason. The above appears to be a very possible reason.

8K displays for consumer use may never happen but having 8K video (still frame or video) that can be zoomed into does have uses NOW in medical imaging (mentioned by Hirari). The display can be 4K OLED either using glasses or monitors. Sony apparently thinks 4K is viable for consumers and 4K OLED for LARGER screens economically practical by 2015. In the present, 4K $10k monitors for the medical industry. The PS4 processor and GPU used to drive the 4K monitor allowing zooming into the 8K video stream.

The PS3 Playstation Memories is going to support zooming into video streams like it now does for still pictures. It's only a short jump for the PS3 to support zooming into 4K video streams (PS3 is to support 4K still picture support for 4K monitors beginning 2012). Zooming into 8K streams only possible for a PS4.

Will Sony have another use for the PS3 Cell and RSX like they do now for 4K editing? If they do then the PS3/RSX/Memory/Southbridge stacked chip would probably include more memory resulting in a possible PS3.5 version. IF everything is to be using the new Cell2 then no PS3.5 version.

 

[AceBandage]

Consoles can barely even hit 1080P...
And you're expecting 8K?

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Dreams... About to get shattered.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Consoles can barely even hit 1080P...
And you're expecting 8K?

I hope at some point that people will read the entire post.

When anyone correctly posts that Sony is targeting 4K or 8k MEDIA just because the PS3 is assumed to be a game console first (maybe correctly) the ASSumption is that the post is about rendering a game at 4K or 8K.

And I do expect the PS4 to "barely hit" 4k game rendering like the PS3 "barely even hit 1080P". 1080P @60hz will be the PS4 game rendering target so that 1080P 3-D @30hz is possible. 300 FPS video to support a video budget for AR multiple video streams NOT game rendering is also I think a PS4 target.

There is a growing number of posters who have been posting about 4K and Sony for about a year now. We have taken allot of flack but the evidence is now overwhelming that we were correct. Sony for the PS4 is now pushing toward 8K video to support Medical imaging and AR multi-video channels @ 1080P. This is no longer speculation and it's been posted enough that NeoGAF readers should be up on this.

 

[DieH@rd]

In this initial showing, IBM is targeting SoC with 100 layers, that is clearly in the far far future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rbj5vrXulD0


Only few layers of modern SoC architecture could give Sony substantial processing advantage against competition. Not to mention that they could [if they deem it necessary] insert insane amounts of EDRAM in their final product [~4 layers transistors, each with their own 32MBb+ of EDRAM, or one entire layer just for memory].


Stacked tranzistors are currently great unknown, who knows what will they end up making it viable in big/high-processing/powerhungry/hot chips.

 

[jeff_rigby]

In this initial showing, IBM is targeting SoC with 100 layers, that is clearly in the far far future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rbj5vrXulD0

Only few layers of modern SoC architecture could give Sony substantial processing advantage against competition. Not to mention that they could [if they deem it necessary] insert insane amounts of EDRAM in their final product [~4 layers transistors, each with their own 32MBb+ of EDRAM, or one entire layer just for memory].

Stacked tranzistors are currently great unknown, who knows what will they end up making it viable in big/high-processing/powerhungry/hot chips.

It does mention Game Consoles....Is IBM expecting 100 layer game console chips or is the article taking license to draw our attention, 100 layers and 1000 times faster are both insane claims. 5 layers 10 times faster is a practical reality today.

I get your point that modern SOC is not much different from the process in the article I quoted but remember there are two foundries (Global Foundries AMD offshoot producing the AMD GPU) mentioned producing the IBM (CPU) OBAN chip and the method they are to be combined has not been addressed. So two wafers produced by two different foundries are going to be combined...that's not traditional SOC..sounds and I imagine it looks more like my quoted article.

That the chip rumored for the next Xbox is named Oban which is a Japanese name for a large stamped coin might indicate Sony-Toshiba involvement.

Dimensions
Height: 152 millimetres
Width: 93 millimetres
Weight: 165.28 grammes

Curator's comments
Ôban were made of hammered gold with a face value of 10 ryô (ounces). The word ôban means 'large stamped [piece]' in Japanese. The earliest ôban were made in the 1580s, when the feudal lord Toyotomi Hideyoshi (1536/7-98) co-operated with wealthy merchants in the Kansai district of central Japan and monopolized Japan's metal mines. He then began to mint gold coins of fixed quality.

The earliest ôban had no inscription - ideal for forgers. To overcome this problem, inscriptions and stamp marks were added. By 1586, the value of the ôban and the signature of the Goto family (the hereditary superintendents of the mint) were handwritten in ink on the front of the ôban. A flower stamp (hanaoshi) was also impressed on the surface. The stamp featured the crest of the paulownia flower (kiri) crest, which was later used in official government and imperial seals.

 

[StevieP]

Oban is the name of the next Xbox chip, stacking an IBM CPU and an AMD GPU onto an SoC.