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Rumor: Leaked document detailing MS future plans for the Xbox line. 56 pages long.
- Thread starter bgassassin
- Start date
jeff_rigby
Banned
It appears that it's possible to have 2 gigs of wide I/O inside the SOC now but 4 gigs would have to wait and/or be more expensive. The following needs to be understood completely, quad channel DDR3 or 4 "don't think about it" needs to be understood, it's not gong to be in a future design for the same reason the PS3 Cell @ 40nm can't be easily scaled to 32nm, the XDR interface is too large just like 4 DDR channels in a AMD Fusion would be. The next node process shrink would have issues and that should be part of Sony and Microsoft long range plans. A custom memory interface is an absolute MUST!
http://www.amdzone.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=532&t=139005&start=50#p218132 said:DDR4 is not much faster than DDR3 ... it all depends on latencies (tymings). Also DDR4 tends to consume more relative power for the higher "speeds" ... better would be AMD to launch a LR (load reduced) non-registered non-ECC high speed standard!... just a crazy idea!... but since AMD is now in the DRAM business also, it could make better with what is already there.
About a quad channel APU, just DON'T think about it... DRAM DIMM interfaces are absolutely HUGE and scale terribly bad with smaller process nodes ... the necessary lane layout would mean a much larger chip than necessary, perhaps curtailing the possibility of ULV 17W bins. Also it defeats the purpose for mobile, entry to mainstream desktop markets...
The better way to deal with the memory bandwidth problem of APUs is to have TSV eDRAM... IBM could help in the design ( i think AMD already has a license for the macro designs) and also the Wide I/O DRAM interface of which consortium AMD is part, all fits like a charm.
So after Kavery we can have an APU with 512 to 1GB of TSV DRAM on the package, no POPs no interposers, cooling solutions already exist, so the "execution" parts don't have to lose much (if anything).
heck! it can have also an interposed on package like Haswell will have 512MB to 1GB of DRAM
Heck this is nothing new, quite before any Haswell, only it could be way much better... and instead of a Radeon it will be an APU on that package... and by the time it will be necessary it can have 2 DRAM chips instead of 4, cause TSV is starting to be big among DRAM IDMs, and those chips can have up to 8 stacked dies (4Gbit/die each means 4GB/chip or 8 GB for total of 2 DRAM chips on package -> meaning 1 to 2GB total will be relative inexpensive... heck! 4 DRAM dies + 1 controller (a LR type ) and it will be 2GB in one single chip (with up to 128bit interface on the Wide I/O standard)... for the GPGPU on the APU!..
Micron stated in a stockholder meeting that they are providing custom and semi-custom memory for next generation game consoles.
2 Gig of stacked RAM in the SOC (one to two layers high only, more and fill/heat issues crop up) would be an efficient and cost effective design. More memory at this time would have to be outside the SOC (probably a Load Reduced DDR3 128 bit wide custom package) but could be attached to a package like in the above picture. These are the kinds of design changes that can take place, the SOC is probably locked at this point.
In this picture on the bottom right is a prototype SOC with 2 memory chips inside the SOC (two rectangles on the right).
So either way, inside the SOC or outside on the package is possible. Trace length is not an issue with either method but the number of pins, how wide the Memory buss (I/O) is an issue. Inside the SOC you could have a 512 bit buss, outside the SOC on the package 256 or 128 bit buss.
Only if there is going to be a second GPU outside the SOC would GDDR5 memory be used. DDR3 memory as a second pool for the GPU is not going to happen if it's a HSA design. Rumors of split pool and odd memory sizes are probably from developer platforms which can only approximate a final design using current hardware made for PCs.
Over and over I see Memory wall issues mentioned (memory bandwidth has not kept up with CPU needs) and APU Fusion SOCs needing large memory bandwidth, Game consoles will push against the memory wall even harder.
Unregistered007
Banned
he realized that he was browsing GAF on Wii U's tablet pad because his mama was watching netflix on TV.
Unregistered007
Banned
btw any details on who is providing RRoD next gen?
Sigh....try to keep up.
After I asked my question, steviep said there is not 12 GBs of DDR4 in the devkit. So I asked him which one is it, is there not 12GBs of ram or is there 12 GBs of GDDR5 or something. He then smugly/strangely replied with something about there is no way you are getting 12GBs in a standard built mid-range pc, which is irrelevant and doesn't provide any clarity at all. As I explained dev-kits are a different beast entirely.
And you are way off-base about PCs. For one GDDR isn't comercially available to consumers and secondly if you want to get technical, you can easily stick two 4GB cards in a high end pc to give you 8GBs or more if you desire. If you want 12GB nvidia does have special cards but they're more for professionals. So um yeah there are high-end PCs with 8GBs of GDDR5.
I probably shouldn't have asked stevie for info anyway cause welll........you see his tag
Those are high-end dual-GPU cards, sir. Those are incredibly power-hungry and produce a lot of heat. Oh yeah, they're also expensive as shit. So yeah, there are high-end PCs with 8GB of GDDR5 RAM. I think I forgot to make it clear earlier that I was talking about the vast majority of high-end PCs. Those Nvidia cards you are mentioning aren't even built for gaming, so I don't know why you brought those up. Yes, there are 8GB GDDR5 in really high-end PCs. Do you think that makes it any more likely that the devkits, let alone the actual console itself will have 12/8GB GDDR5?
StevieP's response wasn't necessarily "smug". I took it as more of "You clearly don't see this in even a standard mid-range PC, why would you think it'll be there in the devkit for a console?" <--- I don't want to put words into his mouth, and I'd appreciate if he could clear it up.
GDDR5 has a density of 256MB per chip. In order to get your grand total of 8GB GDDR5, you would need 32 chips on a single board. Even with 6GB of GDDR5, that's 24 chips. With twice the density, that's 16 chips and 12 chips, respectively, which is manageable, I assume (certainly more so than 24 or 32). DDR3 fits that bill with 512MB chips.
Don't get me wrong--I still expect there to be a certain amount of GDDR5 in there--just that the majority will be DDR3 or DDR4 due to a very likely high-footprint OS and background tasks (we're talking about a media hub, right?).
Please provide the chart if that isn't a hassle.
Regarding the chip count..... Those PCI-E sized cards have nothing on them besides the GPU itself. Console PCBs have much more than just a GPU to worry about.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Gesh, Micron is making custom and semi-custom memory for next generation game consoles; will someone please post this on BY3D and Read and understand it here!!!!
Further, looking forward to a die shrink in 2 years will impact the memory interface that will be used in the AMD SOC being made for both Microsoft and Sony now. This demands a custom interface!!!!!! Quad DDR is not happening, 256 bit wide GDDR5 is possible but unlikely as the next generation shrink should have the Second GPU move into the SOC (if it's outside the SOC this generation). I'd think that the limiting factors this generation are going to be heat and memory interface. That may require the GPU inside the SOC and the heat generated by the GPU will determine the size of the GPU and thus the Tflops. If Hybrid Memory Cube is ready in time then 6-8 serial connections to the SOC solve the interface issues/memory bandwidth issues but again, GPU should be inside the SOC but memory size is expandable to 8 Gig or more.
Fusion design remember, CPU and GPU have to use the same memory buss and have coherent cache. The method to do this is too complicated to be outside the SOC on the motherboard and be efficient. Progressively, you can design ever more inefficient methods to overcome the limitations when using current memory interfaces or design a custom interface for use with Fusion APUs which are custom packages using HSA custom software. AMD is betting the farm on HSA Fusion APUs and is providing HSA libraries they wrote to efficiently use HSA and is also working with Micron to design custom memory interfaces/packages to work with their HSA Fusion APU designs.
This is the point of the SimiAccurate post on the PS4, "Stacked memory and lots of it". Stacked memory uses TSVs to stack like on like memory to increase the density which decreases the total trace length on motherboards. This is necessary to have faster memory and also reduces motherboard costs. Game console volumes justify/make practical a custom memory for a game console. The interface between SOC to memory outside the SOC is another "Game console volume justifies/makes economically practical" the cost of a custom interface.
Just to be clear about custom memory interface; current DDR memory controllers are 64 bit wide and to create a 256 bit buss you use 4 DDR memory controllers. A custom DDR memory controller connected to custom memory might be ONE 256 bit DDR memory controller that would be replaced in the next refresh with a HMC "Copper"multi-serial interface or an optical (1Tbye/sec) interface. Game consoles don't need expandable memory so the most cost effective design is to include the memory inside the SOC with a 256 or 512 bit interface. If this is not possible this generation then a 256 bit external interface allows for an easy refresh to support 256 bit memory inside the SOC in 2 years.
Sony Invents Optical Communication Glasses for Work & Play
I guess Glasses is going to be the big thing Next Gen Sony , MS & Google.
I guess Glasses is going to be the big thing Next Gen Sony , MS & Google.
thehypocrite
Member
The HUDs will be awesome Next Gen. Great news.
Sony Invents Optical Communication Glasses for Work & Play
I guess Glasses is going to be the big thing Next Gen Sony , MS & Google.
2009 prototype
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ngf6hMWSmFA#t=543s
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Turned out he was right
if they was that far along in 2009 I can only imagine how they will be when they hit retail, & also it look like they will work with the new sony smart watches
we are almost at the point in the future where all the TV Shows & Movies used to take us when we was kids.
Jetsons where is my flying car & robot maid? & I'm not talking about this
where is Rosie?
Tom Hanks is always awesome.
This been posted yet?
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-xbox-720-leak-fact-or-fantasy
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-xbox-720-leak-fact-or-fantasy
Feel free to giggle at my tag all you'd like. The kits are literally similar to standard pcs even if your source is only web leaks. The type of memory you'd find the amount of 12gb (or 8gb) in pcs at the moment is?Sigh....try to keep up.
After I asked my question, steviep said there is not 12 GBs of DDR4 in the devkit. So I asked him which one is it, is there not 12GBs of ram or is there 12 GBs of GDDR5 or something. He then smugly/strangely replied with something about there is no way you are getting 12GBs in a standard built mid-range pc, which is irrelevant and doesn't provide any clarity at all. As I explained dev-kits are a different beast entirely.
And you are way off-base about PCs. For one GDDR isn't comercially available to consumers and secondly if you want to get technical, you can easily stick two 4GB cards in a high end pc to give you 8GBs or more if you desire. If you want 12GB nvidia does have special cards but they're more for professionals. So um yeah there are high-end PCs with 8GBs of GDDR5.
I probably shouldn't have asked stevie for info anyway cause welll........you see his tag
Or, to put it in different terms: 8gb of gddr5 ain't happening. Ryoku has more correctly conveyed what I was trying to say but was too lazy to type due to crappy smartphone touch typing.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
He was dismissing it on Twitter. Must be pretty embarrassed now.
Sony Invents Optical Communication Glasses for Work & Play
I guess Glasses is going to be the big thing Next Gen Sony , MS & Google.
I already have to wear glasses, so this idea can go to hell for all I care. I damn sure don't want gaming glasses, lol.
I doubt he's embarrassed. Most of the article has him trying to still disprove it, albeit now, it's dismissive of Microsoft's plans rather than show it up as poor man's 50+ pages fake.
mclaren777
Member
I have the PDF and Powerpoint versions of this document if anybody still needs it.
LowEndTorque
Member
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
Yeah, Microsoft actively trying to remove the doc must have been the reason why he wrote that article. But still, this whole thing is so funny.
Don't read too much into that. The doc is old.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Read the document. What are the most important things I should take out of it?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Going by what's coming first;
1) By this Sept-October the PS3 browser will be finished and soon after Sony will announce a new cheaper PS3 with HDMI pass-thru. A major PS3 firmware update will completely change the XMB with 3-D, browser always loaded, Skype, Google Talk, HTML5 apps, webview windows from the XMB and more. Xbox will have essentially the same, both will have a Kinect and Kinect like interface.
2) Augmented reality also starts after Sept of 2012 with features building to the Launch of the PS4 in 2013. A whole new generation starts then with the hardware to support more advanced everything.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Ryoku said:
High end cards for high end pcs good sir. They cost hundreds sure but that wasn't the point, because the memory isn't whats ballooning the price. Not at all. And whether you meant the majority of high-end pcs or whatever is still irrelevant because we are discussing custom-built devkits, which again don't have the same constraints. Again fitting 12GBs in a devkit is hardly a tall order for Sony/MS if they choose todo so.
And you are correct about the Nvidia professional level 12GB cards even though I don't know why you think them being built for gaming is relevant. We are discussing development hardware.
You quoted the post I replied to kagemaru with and in it I clearly say that I don't expect 8GBs of GDDR5 in the final console. I don't know why you keep trying to suggest that I expect that or even 12 because of this discussion? You usually include double the memory in devkits for debug/profiling purposes hence why I was asking for clarification of the rumor.
Ryoku said:
Well I have had back-and-forths with stevie a few times now and a smug tone is not below him.
On chip counts, Rigby uncovered a while back that Micron was making custom memory solutions for next-generation consoles so who knows what they are cooking up. I wouldn't invest too much thought into standard configurations.
No problem.
Surely you meant not similar at all?
jeff_rigby
Banned
My opinion is the Oban SOC that started production Dec 2011 is both the Xbox361 and PS3.5 SOC and it's at 32 nm with 1 gig of Wide I/O stacked RAM in the SOC.
This is my opinion and hindsight based on the Digitimes rumor, Xbox Code10 project, Xbox361 in the Xbox 720 powerpoint as well as Microsoft-sony.com and sony-microsoft.com. Also when you start to look at how a HDMI pass-thru and standby mode/low power mode Xbox 360 and PS3 could be made, it's obvious, at least to me. You have a massive redesign or use existing AMD building blocks and enough PPC and SPUs to make emulation possible for both on the same SOC.
One chip for both consoles, with enough horsepower to emulate both at same levels as original consoles [they would probably not want to piss off 60+mil userbases from both camps by providing games that preform way better on these redesigns...]?
Im skeptical.
Graphics Horse
Member
That's politer than how I'd have put it.
bgassassin
Member
I think Oban has a better chance of being for Wii U than PS360 remodels.
A bit OT:
The more PC-like these component configurations appear to be the more i begin to wonder - why bother purchasing any of these next gen consoles, as currently slated, when a powerful PC should logically be able to emulate them with somewhat greater ease than ever before
The more PC-like these component configurations appear to be the more i begin to wonder - why bother purchasing any of these next gen consoles, as currently slated, when a powerful PC should logically be able to emulate them with somewhat greater ease than ever before
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yup.
1) SOC = performance increase of 2 node shrinks
2) Stacked DRAM give enough memory performance that XDR and eDRAM are not needed.
Key here is for Xbox, it's just upgraded hardware, for PS3 the AMD GPU is a big jump over the PS3 GPU and that should free up SPUs....there should be unused cycles.
It will have 2 PPC and at least 6 SPUs in it and most likely a ARM processor for Trustzone (DRM)
Most likely a USB 3.0 and something like Display port that can direct drive LCD glasses as well as HDMI 1080P pass-thru. This is necessary for next generation accessories to be sold now.
And it's going to be a PS3.5 not PS3. Check out discussions on a PS3.5. It has to have more than 512 meg for the emulation overhead so most likely 2 512 meg Wide I/O stacked memory packages are in the SOC. Anything not used by emulation can be used by Sony for additional OS features like Cross game chat.
The question is what will Sony support given they don't want to fragment the PS3 user base. According to Digitimes it has a Kinect interface for the PS3.5 and of course the Xbox 361 has a Kinect interface.
Accessories can be made for the PS3 but will cost more than those made for the PS3.5 and PS4. Expect bundle after bundle for the PS3.5.
Very possible. Oban is a Japanese name for a blank oblong gold coin and that would work for WiiU. In any case what I described is coming this holiday season and the news report have Oban being made for Microsoft not the Wii.bgassassin said:
If you look into what would be required to produce a refreshed PS3 or Xbox360 with HDMI pass-thru and low power modes it rapidly becomes evident that using AMD building blocks and emulating a PS3 or Xbox 360 is the more practical course. Key here is stacked memory and AMD building blocks plus IBM TSV substrate.Graphics Horse said:
Barcelona Super Computer center made the Cell simulator software for IBM and most likely, according to rumors, was involved in the PS4 and Cell (this in 2011).
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
There's a myriad of reasons, but not to get into that whole debate again, the most obvious one is you want to play games that are not available on PC. Unless you were literally talking about emulation - I'm afraid that's not happening anytime soon.
-MikePriester-
Member
I find it very hard to believe most of what you say, I don't know why as its very detailed and to the point, but, you are telling me there is going to be a PS3.5 with Kinect ? This late into the generation?
Where do you get your information from?
The only thing that can somehow make me believe in this oban x361/ps3.5 rumor is that inverview with Sony exec, in which he stated that the company is prepared to spend around 1 billion for chip r&d.
I dont see how PS4 APU [with more or less standard design, one newish CPU and GPU smacked together] can worth so much money. This oban however will have stacked ram on it, and that will not be chap to implement.
I dont see how PS4 APU [with more or less standard design, one newish CPU and GPU smacked together] can worth so much money. This oban however will have stacked ram on it, and that will not be chap to implement.
jeff_rigby
Banned
http://kotaku.com/5817874/report-the-playstation-4-will-have-kinect+style-motion-controls. The same month this rumor came out Microsoft reserved the domain names sony-microsoft.com and microsoft-sony.com.
Then investigate what it would take to create a refreshed PS3 and XBox 360 with HDMI Pass-thru and low power modes. It would cost less to use AMD building blocks and emulate; this is key! Then add that in Dec 2010 Sony published a patent for 1PPU4PPU building blocks that would work in HSA platforms...Cell was DEAD in it's current form but could be used in HSA platforms like AMD SOCs.
Take the oban and PS4 rumor and remove the speculation that it's for next generation as the article points out it can't be next generation...what does that leave.
It's more expensive in small quantities as it's currently CUSTOM memory but in quantity it's cheaper, faster, uses less power and produces less heat. Micron is making CUSTOM and semi-custom memory for game consoles. With both Sony and Microsoft using it there is an economy of scale.DieH@rd said:
With just about everything in one SOC you have a very cheap platform for Xbox361 and PS3.5.
-MikePriester-
Member
A lot of speculation and guess work maybe, don't get me wrong, you could be very right, but one has to question where you are gathering all this information from.
I'm hoping you're wrong to be honest as id prefer the next gen much sooner and these machines would likely push it back.
So, with the 361, what will it have over the 360? What features will HDMI pass thru give us and will I be playing 360 games with better graphics?
specialguy
Banned
His take is pretty right on for anybody who knows a little about tech. On it's face the document is pretty dumb, other than as a grab bag of broad reaching ideas to give us some ideas of broad plans. The tech specifics are nonexistent or unrealistic/nonsensical.
I dont think the guy who did this doc is very smart, he's an ex zune guy.
specialguy
Banned
Huh?
361 is just going to be a lower cost 360.
It's interesting, a year or two ago there was lots of rumors of a 360 on a SOC, Oban might have been that and Charlie mistook it for next gen stuff.
Anyways, it's likely they're planning that ultra low cost 360 revision, when it will hit is unknown. But I think that may be why they dont do any price drop, they wait for it. It could be in 2013 imo.
That and the fact they're cheapasses, and Xbox division is now considered a "profit center"
Epics bitching came long after these docs were made. Its very possible MS has since increased the specs.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Now you are asking questions I can't answer. Game side would have to have upscaling to either 720P or 1080P to allow for easy windows and overlay. That might not be noticed by the average gamer. I'd expect better kinect (more accurate) and better voice recognition (more accurate) and most likely accessories will be cheaper for the Xbox 361 than for Xbox 360.
As to dashboard, always loaded fast start with a hibernate mode and Google TV Plus features. Haven't you kept up with what's been leaked for the Xbox360. Bing voice and gesture control as well as HTML5 apps and Web Browser. Skype is coming and expect a little augmented reality included in Skype. What can be done will floor you. Same for PS3.5
2011 Xbox360
HTML5 Webstack on Xbox 360
Scotch/XTV Apps Platform Services for Xbox 360, Phone and PC.
2012
Solve Home Networking + Content Passthrough
Xbox 361: Low cost Xbox 360 with HDMI pass-thru
NUI Remote for TV experiences
HD Homerun + HDMI Pass Through + Home Networking
XTV Pay TV Service: Full Screen TV @1080P, Overlays (VC +Full Screen) 720P
Additional Web/OTT content
For instance HD Homerun is a dual Digital tuner that connects to the home network and sells for under $99.00. It's been the tuner of choice for XMBC which is a open source software for a home Media entertainment center that runs on a PC. This will allow watching TV using the HD Home Run tuner and having overlay windows on an older Xbox360. Only when using a Cablebox or set top box is HDMI pass-thru needed. IF you have RVU then it's not needed and the Xbox can control the DVR, play movies, watch live TV and overlay without pass-thru. But you will be burning 90+ watts no matter what you do unless you have a Xbox 361 or PS3.5.
Proelite
Member
They recently said 1 teraflop is the minimum for full featured UE4.
Considering all the hints of a 1 teraflop machine by insiders on Neogaf and beyond3d, it's probably 4x. 8x 360 is actually more than 2.5 teraflops and is very optimistic.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I think you mean ps3, 360 is rated and .25 Tflops.
I see your math skill are not that great. If 360 has 0.25trflops then 8x can't be more then 2.5trflops. It's actually 2trflops.
-MikePriester-
Member
I understand what you are saying Jeff as I have been keeping up. I just find it hard to find a reason why when next gen is 'just around the corner'.