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[specialguy]

They recently said 1 teraflop is the minimum for full featured UE4.

Considering all the hints of a 1 teraflop machine by insiders on Neogaf and beyond3d, it's probably 4x. 8x 360 is actually more than 2.5 teraflops and is very optimistic.

Depends what you mean though, video cards can use their flops much more efficiently today, so who knows, a 1TF modern GPU might be something like 8X 360 in practice.

I'm pretty sure even the most modest specced 720 would be 6-8X 360 in practice, and after taking in the rumors of 16X RAM and so forth.

I think you mean ps3, 360 is rated and .25 Tflops.

We're just talking GPU's I think, in which 360/PS3 are similar. I call them both .25 TF machines.

 

[clashfan]

They recently said 1 teraflop is the minimum for full featured UE4.

How many teraflop is the wiiu?

 

[Biggzy]

We're just talking GPU's I think, in which 360/PS3 are similar. I call them both .25 TF machines.

It's really amazing actually, what developers have squeezed out of 250 GFLOP boxes.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I understand what you are saying Jeff as I have been keeping up. I just find it hard to find a reason why when next gen is 'just around the corner'.

Xbox360 and PS3 sales are leveling off and will go into a slump in 2013. A cheaper PS3 and Xbox360 is needed. Since a MAJOR redesign is needed (refresh to the PS3 with die size reduction to 32nm would require a redesign (major cost)) why not go for every cost saving measure possible and that allows upgrading the hardware. This is why the overdue PS3 refresh was put off till now.

2012 is a technology dividing line due to TSVs and AMD building blocks which are now economically possible due to TSVs allowing a substrate to build SOCs. It also allows for inexpensive "stacked" memory and more. AMD has been planning this for 5 years as has IBM. The research papers published by IBM are telling.

 

[bgassassin]

They recently said 1 teraflop is the minimum for full featured UE4.

Considering all the hints of a 1 teraflop machine by insiders on Neogaf and beyond3d, it's probably 4x. 8x 360 is actually more than 2.5 teraflops and is very optimistic.

Sweeney only said things get interesting beyond 1TFLOP. To run a "full featured" UE4 could be 3+ TFLOPs for all we know.

It's really amazing, actually what developers have squeezed out of 250 GFLOP DX9-level boxes.

fixed

 

[dragonelite]

i really don't know anything about hardware specs so are these specs in the document good for next gen or is it just a incremental step?

From what i heard it was in the 6~8 times this gen but i think microsoft heard sony was aiming for 10~ times ps3 as a minimum so microsoft went back to the drawing board.

 

[Ryoku]

How many teraflop is the wiiu?

Like 7.

 

[Proelite]

I see your math skill are not that great. If 360 has 0.25trflops then 8x can't be more then 2.5trflops. It's actually 2trflops.

Xenos + Xenon ~ 330 gigaflops.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

anyone got a mirror? Pm me

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

How many teraflop is the wiiu?

Unknown. People have been guesstimating everything from like 380 to 800.

 

[bgassassin]

Like 7.

He said TFLOPs not hamsters.

Unknown. People have been guesstimating everything from like 380 to 800.

480.

Though that's an intentional low ball and not something I expect.

 

[specialguy]

480.

Though that's an intentional low ball and not something I expect.

I would continue to ask why the games show nothing of the sort as a machine with a GPU 2X PS360.

 

[bgassassin]

I would continue to ask why the games show nothing of the sort as a machine with a GPU 2X PS360.

We've had that debate on B3D. The answers don't change just because you might not accept them.

 

[Antiochus]

The uneffectual denial yet non denial all but confirms the basic legitimacy of this draft document

 

[Ryoku]

480.

Though that's an intentional low ball and not something I expect.

480 TFLOPs? Seems legit.

 

[Syphon Filter]

I'm watching the 05 MS conference. That is how much i cant wait till they finally talk about the next system.

 

[bgassassin]

^ Eight years is too long of a wait.

480 TFLOPs? Seems legit.

*rereads posts*

Totally legit.

 

[Syphon Filter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sgWTi_betA&feature=relmfu

hah ironic don mattrick was in the 05 ms conference.

 

[StevieP]

Surely you meant not similar at all?

Nope, I meant what I typed

 

[Dark Octave]

If the new Xbox ends up looking like that LOL!

 

[StevieP]

If the new Xbox looks like that LOL!

Nah the whole thing was proof-of-concept with stock images and all that.

 

[onQ123]

I would continue to ask why the games show nothing of the sort as a machine with a GPU 2X PS360.

Weak CPU & Devs have to get use to taking advantage of the GPGPU & also there is a 2nd display in the controller. give it time it will show.


(I Hope)

 

[Ashes]

wiiu will have awesome looking games. just look at tLoU.

 

[shinra-bansho]

So is my understanding correct in that the:

XBOX720 has:

• stronger CPU
• slightly weaker GPU
• more RAM (8GB?), but slower?
• stronger CPU and RAM may be more towards being a Windows 8 box?

PS4 has:

• weaker CPU
• slightly stronger GPU
• less RAM (2GB, maybe 4GB at max), but faster?

 

[Globox_82]

So is my understanding correct in that the:

XBOX720 has:

• stronger CPU
• slightly weaker GPU
• more RAM (8GB?), but slower?
• stronger CPU and RAM may be more towards being a Windows 8 box?

PS4 has:

• weaker CPU
• slightly stronger GPU
• less RAM (2GB, maybe 4GB at max), but faster?

No one knows!
This is bs talk. Maybe around gdc next year we get some legit leak

 

[bgassassin]

So is my understanding correct in that the:

XBOX720 has:

• stronger CPU
• slightly weaker GPU
• more RAM (8GB?), but slower?
• stronger CPU and RAM may be more towards being a Windows 8 box?

PS4 has:

• weaker CPU
• slightly stronger GPU
• less RAM (2GB, maybe 4GB at max), but faster?

I would say that's a good early summary.

 

[Unregistered007]

stronger cpu I guess for additional help with Kinect v2?

where are people getting facts or rough estimates about PS4?

 

[iamshadowlark]

Nope, I meant what I typed

Ohhhh. Guess you enjoy being wrong lol.

 

[joshwaan]

I really do hope the PS4 get's 4GB I really do

I'm really loving my PS3 more then my Xbox atm, PSN has so many good deals on games over Xbox live.

I have a feeling the PS4 will do really well in the next gen, I hope Sony do what they said they are focusing on the core gamer.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

So is my understanding correct in that the:

XBOX720 has:

• stronger CPU
• slightly weaker GPU
• more RAM (8GB?), but slower?
• stronger CPU and RAM may be more towards being a Windows 8 box?

PS4 has:

• weaker CPU
• slightly stronger GPU
• less RAM (2GB, maybe 4GB at max), but faster?

Don't forget KINECT SHADES, lol.

 

[StevieP]

Ohhhh. Guess you enjoy being wrong lol.

I will readily admit if I was wrong.

Ddr# plays a much more prominent role in this console due to the priorities placed on volume.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think Oban has a better chance of being for Wii U than PS360 remodels.

Rumor control article has more information and is skeptical that Oban is the Xbox 720 SOC:

Speaking of the GPU in the Oban

IGN, meanwhile, said its sources confirmed that mass production of the system’s GPU (it did not say it was part of a combo chip or multi-chip package) will begin by the end of 2012, but it will not be based on AMD’s 7,000 series. Rather, it will be based on the 6000 series, like the ATI Radeon HD 6670 (pictured in a PC add-on card at top). That chip has DirectX 11 support, multi-display output, 3D, and 1080 high-definition output. It is priced at about $79.99.

In my opinion; SimiAccurate, IGN, Kotaku are all getting the Xbox361 mixed up with the Xbox720.

In order to support low power modes and HDMI 1080P pass-thru will require a modern AMD GPU and support hardware similar to the hardware in the Xbox 720. A heavily downscaled and modified AMD 6000 series GPU @ 40nm would do this and process (40nm) as well as design were available. Oban was taped out and started production Dec 2011 before the 7000 series @ 28nm were available. So Oban is too early to contain a 7000 series GPU and it's mentioned that the CPU is PPC @ 32nm again, too early to have the more efficient 28nm and with heat an issue (remember the 16 CPU rumors) this does not make sense as a Xbox 720 SOC even one as a test bed for developers.

I'd guess the GPU in both the PS4 and Xbox 720 will be a 8000 series GPU.

Again, this Oban SOC is said to be made for Microsoft and in my opinion the Dec 2011 run was the Yield test for the Xbox361 SOC which has probably been in mass production for a couple of months. Sony seems to think (Digitimes rumor) their version will sell 20 million the first year. It has to be very cheap and/or inexpensive and packed with features to sell 20 million the first year.

 

[Broman1978]

It would be fun if CliffyB could comment about next-gen in this thread! =P

 

[bgassassin]

More information: http://venturebeat.com/2012/01/25/rumor-control-xbox-720-chips-in-prototype-production/

Speaking of the GPU in the Oban



In my opinion; SimiAccurate, IGN, Kotaku are all getting the Xbox361 mixed up with the Xbox720.

In order to support low power modes and HDMI 1080P pass-thru will require a modern AMD GPU and support hardware similar to the hardware in the Xbox 720. A heavily downscaled and modified AMD 6000 series GPU @ 40nm would do this and process (40nm) as well as design were available. Oban was taped out and started production Dec 2011 before the 7000 series @ 28nm were available. So Oban is too early to contain a 7000 series GPU and it's mentioned that the CPU is PPC @ 32nm again, too early to have the more efficient 28nm and with heat an issue this does not make sense as a Xbox 720 SOC.

Again, this Oban SOC is said to be made for Microsoft.

I definitely agree with the assessment that the rumors are getting mixed up as that's something we've talked about as well when it comes to the possibility of Oban and Wii U.

If this does end up being for 361 though, I don't understand the business sense behind it. 361 seems way too late in 360's life and too close to Xbox 3's launch to have adequate sales.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

I have a feeling the PS4 will do really well in the next gen, I hope Sony do what they said they are focusing on the core gamer.

Sony's strategy with Vita is to focus on the core gamer.

 

[McHuj]

If this does end up being for 361 though, I don't understand the business sense behind it. 361 seems way too late in 360's life and too close to Xbox 3's launch to have adequate sales.

Given that this is two years old, 361 maybe have been scrapped completely. 2 years ago, no one anticipated that 28nm was going to turn out to be as big of a clusterfuck as it has been. I think that delayed a lot of people's roadmaps and may have killed something like the 361.

But it could also be something that will be targeted at the India, China, Brazil markets. PS2 had (still has?) a strong life there.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Sony's strategy with Vita is to focus on the core gamer.

Its not really the same scenario though...I mean what competition from other mediums will the home market have?

 

[bgassassin]

Given that this is two years old, 361 maybe have been scrapped completely. 2 years ago, no one anticipated that 28nm was going to turn out to be as big of a clusterfuck as it has been. I think that delayed a lot of people's roadmaps and may have killed something like the 361.

But it could also be something that will be targeted at the India, China, Brazil markets. PS2 had (still has?) a strong life there.

I agree it could have been scrapped, but that doesn't completely address the existence of Oban and it being associated with 361. At the same time however the Loop rumor would suggest 361 is still alive at least up till last year.

 

[Raistlin]

jeff_rigby,

Just wanted to mention that the legend of this thread is only continuing to grow I was watching some podcasts on Roku last night and happened to find one about the document.


http://cnettv.cnet.com/8301-33245_53-57457270-288.html

As if actual Microsoft product launches haven't been in the news enough this week (ahem, Surface tablet and Windows Phone 8), rumors of the road map for the long-anticipated new Xbox are heating up.

A PowerPoint presentation posted to NeoGAF forums claims to divulge Microsoft's secret product launch plans. No, not the launch codes -- this isn't a nuclear crisis, though the excitement among Xbox gamers is verging on nuclear. (See what I did there?) The document has NOT been

The best part is it keeps flashing a text blurb on the actual video mentioning this thread throughout the discussion.


You are a legend

 

[KageMaru]

He was dismissing it on Twitter. Must be pretty embarrassed now.

He admits they doubted the leaks before. Don't really see what's embarrassing about looking into it further.

 

[MikeE21286]

I'm watching the 05 MS conference. That is how much i cant wait till they finally talk about the next system.

I'm watching the Sony 05 one myself lol

http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/sonys-e3-2005-presentation/50921

 

[Raistlin]

He admits they doubted the leaks before. Don't really see what's embarrassing about looking into it further.

The embarrassing part is that like many in this thread, it was a knee jerk reaction without researching the details.


It's one thing state you're skeptical and looking into it. It's another to outright dismiss it on the onset.

 

[alternade]

If 1 teraflop is the minimum for UE4, what was the minimum for UE3?

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I'm watching the Sony 05 one myself lol

http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/sonys-e3-2005-presentation/50921

It's a lovely reminder of how much can change in a single year. The disconnect between the promises of 2005 and the reality of 2006 was tremendous.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I agree it could have been scrapped, but that doesn't completely address the existence of Oban and it being associated with 361. At the same time however the Loop rumor would suggest 361 is still alive at least up till last year.

This was the first thing I thought of as the Xbox720 powerpoint is 2 years old but the Project 10 rumor is from Nov 2011 and I believe it's a Xbox361. Then the Digitimes rumor was July 2011 and I think it's the PS3.5 so they are coming. Oban though is either WiiU or it's Xbox 361, I'm only going by the news report that Oban was made for Microsoft. Anything is possible I guess as rumors are really screwed up. Is this the same as last generation or is PS3.5 and Xbox361 adding to the confusion?

Both PS3 and Xbox have broken Keys

Sony has been working toward full XTV support on the PS3 for years, this was my point in the browser thread. Webkit2 will have full HTML5 <video>, SCG and WebGL support this year. Microsoft is putting a browser in the Xbox360 for the first time at about the same time.

There is also a need for a cheaper casual game platform for the living room. If PS3.5 sells for $199 (with Kinect like accessory) then PS4 may sell for $399.

Given that this is two years old, 361 maybe have been scrapped completely. 2 years ago, no one anticipated that 28nm was going to turn out to be as big of a clusterfuck as it has been. I think that delayed a lot of people's roadmaps and may have killed something like the 361.

Oban is 32nm and the GPU if 6000 series AMD would be 40nm. That won't have any impact as IBM has been doing 32nm SOI for a year (what SPUs require to run cooler at 3.2Ghz).

 

[makingmusic476]

It's a lovely reminder of how much can change in a single year. The disconnect between the promises of 2005 and the reality of 2006 was tremendous.

lol

That dude with the glasses that would always demonstrate Kinect is announcing Fight Night, Wada is announcing Final Fantasy XII. Things change so much!

 

[GhostTrick]

I would continue to ask why the games show nothing of the sort as a machine with a GPU 2X PS360.

PS3/360 were like 10x Xbox. Did you see something 10x at their launch ? No. So be patient.

 

[specialguy]

PS3/360 were like 10x Xbox. Did you see something 10x at their launch ? No. So be patient.

yep. pgr3 blew my mind when i picked it up at launch. others have pointed at kameo.

sure later software improved a lot, but there was generational experiences.

 

[bgassassin]

If 1 teraflop is the minimum for UE4, what was the minimum for UE3?

1 TFLOP is not the minimum.

This was the first thing I thought of as the Xbox720 powerpoint is 2 years old but the Project 10 rumor is from Nov 2011 and I believe it's a Xbox361. Then the Digitimes rumor was July 2011 and I think it's the PS3.5 so they are coming. Oban though is either WiiU or it's Xbox 361, I'm only going by the news report that Oban was made for Microsoft. Anything is possible I guess as rumors are really screwed up. Is this the same as last generation or is PS3.5 and Xbox361 adding to the confusion?

Both PS3 and Xbox have broken Keys

Sony has been working toward full XTV support on the PS3 for years, this was my point in the browser thread. Webkit2 will have full HTML5 <video>, SCG and WebGL support this year. Microsoft is putting a browser in the Xbox360 for the first time at about the same time.

There is also a need for a cheaper casual game platform for the living room. If PS3.5 sells for $199 (with Kinect like accessory) then PS4 may sell for $399.

You only focused on one part of my post instead of the whole thing. I brought up Loop.

 

[dragonelite]

yep. pgr3 blew my mind when i picked it up at launch. others have pointed at kameo.

sure later software improved a lot, but there was generational experiences.

Yep just rewatched the 360 reveal 2005 E3 and dam it really looks like we jumped a half gen in between. From Gears 1 to Judgement and Halo 3 to Halo 4. And this is on the same hardware that is why i want next gen to be 10 times more powerful.

So atleast more devs can choose for 1080p@60fps and at those hw level 16xAF is almost free. Atleast on pc 16xAF doesn't give me a performance drop on my 6950.