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[infinityBCRT]

LTTP

Too good to be true seems to be the general consensus, so I won't go down that road, however, was there a mention of an MSRP

The document itself is real as ever. Its pretty much confirmed, The Verge posted that the take down notices from Microsoft lawyers were referring to published works by Microsoft pertaining to their "IEB (Interactive Entertainment Business) Roadmap".

http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/21/3094213/microsoft-take-down-request-xbox-720-doc-leak

Microsoft has received information that the domain listed above, which appears to be on servers under your control, is offering unlicensed copies of, or is engaged in other unauthorized activities relating to copyrighted works published by Microsoft.

1. Identification of copyrighted works:

Copyrighted work(s):
IEB Roadmap

Copyright owner: 

Microsoft Corporation

2. Copyright infringing material or activity found at the following location(s):

xxxxxxxxxxx-XBox-720-9-24-Checkpoint-Draft-1.pptx

 

[USC-fan]

“Interactive Entertainment Business (IEB) Roadmap”

Hmmmmm.....

 

[jeff_rigby]

“Interactive Entertainment Business (IEB) Roadmap”

Hmmmmm.....

Yes, please don't notice a Xbox361 is coming out in a few months, we don't want to impact Xbox360 sales. Please don't notice it's a "Project 10" XTV HDMI 1080P pass-thru similar to Sony Google TV Blu-ray pass-thru with similar features using Bing search, voice recognition, Kinect and Explorer with HTML5 apps instead of Android apps.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

I'm not sure why they bothered sending C+D's, especially since the general sentiment was that it was fake. They should've just let people assume it was fake.

Now, we all know it's legit, though probably out of date.

 

[USC-fan]

Yes, please don't notice a Xbox361 is coming our in a few months, we don't want to impact Xbox360 sales. Please don't notice it's a "Project 10" XTV HDMI 1080P pass-thru similar to Sony Google TV Blu-ray pass-thru with similar features using Bing search, voice recognition, Kinect and Explorer with HTML5 apps instead of Android apps.

I think the delay with the x361 could be all the fad problems at 28nm. It has backed everyone up and a lot of fad havent moved to 32/28nm.

To get to this smaller box than going to need 32/28nm chips.

This is from 2010 so i sure the road map has changed.

 

[Jonm1010]

I'm not sure why they bothered sending C+D's, especially since the general sentiment was that it was fake. They should've just let people assume it was fake.

Now, we all know it's legit, though probably out of date.

Heck maybe they see it as viral marketing now or a nice stalking horse.

Draw some attention to it, feel the responses, maybe build a little buzz. Sounds like a win win for me.

 

[Plinko]

What backfires? Its already passed the first trail and gone to the second set of shops to be offered.

With a $99 initial fee and a 2-year plan with small payments it passed.

I think things will be different when the hardware costs substantially more than it does under the current circumstances.

 

[iamshadowlark]

A gazillion background functionalities and a highly expanded Kinect sensor with a bigger movement database and better recognition. You'd expect as much from a standard feature, wouldn't you?



It's slightly faster than DDR3 and eats less power, from what I recall. However, it's not 12GB of DDR4 that's in the kits right now.



I will be more. If the kits are any indication, it will be like a mid-spec HTPC with a lot of external functionality in many regards and the memory to do so.

So is it not 12 GB or is it GDDR or something? If its the latter then that's insane.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think the delay with the x361 could be all the fad problems at 28nm. It has backed everyone up and a lot of fad havent moved to 32/28nm.

To get to this smaller box than going to need 32/28nm chips.

This is from 2010 so i sure the road map has changed.

Don't think so as in 2010 the Xbox361 was scheduled for Holiday season 2012 and Nov 2011 Xbox project 10 was announced (deliberately leaked) for Holiday season 2012 Xbox361=Project 10= XTV as 10 is roman numeral X.

No one is picking this up. Oban is either WiiU or SOC for both Xbox 361 and PS3.5 (my speculation) and that started production Dec 2011.

It seems now that recent speculation that the new main System on a Chip (SoC) for the Next Xbox (or Xbox 720, if you like) began production is apparently accurate; the SoC did indeed start production in late December of 2011. Sources tell us that the code name for the chip is Oban, and it is being produced by both IBM and Global Foundries for Microsoft.

If speculation is correct, which our sources believe it is, the power behind the next Xbox will be a PowerPC CPU that is married to an ATI Southern Islands GPU, or modified 7000 series. Continued rumors of an x86 compatible CPU seem to be bunk, just based on where the chip is being fab’d.

This first run of these 32nm Oban chips

If the Oban leak is correct and it's for the next Xbox then it's for a Xbox361 not Xbox 720 (too early). Continuing rumors for Xbox 720 being X86 are probably correct.

 

[sTeLioSco]

Heck maybe they see it as viral marketing now or a nice stalking horse.

Draw some attention to it, feel the responses, maybe build a little buzz. Sounds like a win win for me.

sending c&ds everywhere where the doc is stored?
i don't think microsoft has so much free time.....

 

[Plinko]

A gazillion background functionalities and a highly expanded Kinect sensor with a bigger movement database and better recognition. You'd expect as much from a standard feature, wouldn't you?

I guess. I just wonder what the reasoning is to have all of the background functions running at once.

 

[Dreamwriter]

That confirms it:

Is Ihned.cz a reputable site?

 

[Elios83]

I guess. I just wonder what the reasoning is to have all of the background functions running at once.

Microsoft wants the new Xbox to be a set-top box based on Windows 8 not just a gaming console.
They want users to be able to switch immediatly between different types of contents (games, TV, movies, internet, social networks).
Basically it's what Kutaragi wanted in his dreams for the PS3 when he stated in 2005 that the PS3 OS would support multiple contents simultaneously.....then of course on PS3 even having in-game XMB proved to be a challenge and cross game chat impossible (LOL).

 

[sTeLioSco]

Is Ihned.cz a reputable site?

dropbox restricting access to stored documents is the bigger deal.

 

[Plinko]

Microsoft wants the new Xbox to be a set-top box based on Windows 8 not just a gaming console.
They want users to be able to switch immediatly between different types of contents (games, TV, movies, internet, social networks).
Basically it's what Kutaragi wanted in his dreams for the PS3 when he stated in 2005 that the PS3 OS would support multiple contents simultaneously.....then of course on PS3 even having in-game XMB proved to be a challenge and cross game chat impossible (LOL).

I see--so they're going to market the thing as an all-around entertainment center as opposed to a video game system.

Interesting.

 

[Mindlog]

Don't think so as in 2010 the Xbox361 was scheduled for Holiday season 2012 and Nov 2011 Xbox project 10 was announced (deliberately leaked) for Holiday season 2012 Xbox361=Project 10= XTV as 10 is roman numeral X.

No one is picking this up. Oban is either WiiU or SOC for both Xbox 361 and PS3.5 (my speculation) and that started production Dec 2011.

If the Oban leak is correct and it's for the next Xbox then it's for a Xbox361 not Xbox 720 (too early). Continuing rumors for Xbox 720 being X86 are probably correct.

Kind of weird how that strategy dovetails with the Surface approach.

My whole take is something like the X361 being a set-top device and the 720 being a little something more like a home entertainment server. I remember discussing it with a few people over a year ago how disappointed we've been with the dawdling in SmartTV+ development. Everyone was sitting around waiting for Apple to kill them. At least Samsung is trying to move forward at pace. MS and Google have wasted too much time failing to fill an obvious need.

 

[i-Lo]

Lttp here. I am not really buying the whole 120W total system power draw for XBox 720. 50W SoC! Really?!

 

[Karak]

With a $99 initial fee and a 2-year plan with small payments it passed.

I think things will be different when the hardware costs substantially more than it does under the current circumstances.

Oh ok. I thought the 720 was coming out at 299. Which wouldn't equal any big changes. But ya if its a 499 system sure.

I guess. I just wonder what the reasoning is to have all of the background functions running at once.

Agreed. And you are right not only does it not make sense it doesn't even make programming sense for that to occur or take even near that amount of system power. If its not a misquote or just wild speculation, then it is a horribly, tragically unoptimized POS of an OS, almost supernaturally so
For all intents and purposes they would have to TRY to make it suck for it required even half of the current speculation.

 

[USC-fan]

Lttp here. I am not really buying the whole 120W total system power draw for XBox 720. 50W SoC! Really?!

That is low but I guess they are trying to get it in that form factor. I would think the next gen console would be around 150-250 watts.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Kind of weird how that strategy dovetails with the Surface approach.

My whole take is something like the X361 being a set-top device and the 720 being a little something more like a home entertainment server. I remember discussing it with a few people over a year ago how disappointed we've been with the dawdling in SmartTV+ development. Everyone was sitting around waiting for Apple to kill them. At least Samsung is trying to move forward at pace. MS and Google have wasted too much time failing to fill an obvious need.

Webkit2 and standards needed to be put in place and that is happening this September-October with the next Gnome Cycle. MS and Google provided their own browsers and Google Android apps instead of HTML5. Google with Google TV was too early. Notice 10' interface is now supported at many sites. Also Google is now rewriting their browsers to be Webkit webGL HTML5 compatible and Google-Netflix-Microsoft proposed a DRM for HTML5 <video> that will probably be implemented by this 2012 season.

 

[KageMaru]

Lttp here. I am not really buying the whole 120W total system power draw for XBox 720. 50W SoC! Really?!

The document was not made by an engineer, but instead someone from a different department such as marketing. So you should take the specs in there with a grain of salt.

 

[McHuj]

Lttp here. I am not really buying the whole 120W total system power draw for XBox 720. 50W SoC! Really?!

What's outrageous about a 50W SoC? Trinity models span the range of 17W-100W.

Yeah, a 50W SoC would probably pretty damn week, but doable. For comparison, the entire 360 Slim draws ~90W @ with a 45nm SOC. I'm guessing with 28nm version, it would be in the sub 50W range for the whole system.

 

[StevieP]

So is it not 12 GB or is it GDDR or something? If its the latter then that's insane.

You're not getting 12gb of GDdr into a standard-built mid range pc.

I guess. I just wonder what the reasoning is to have all of the background functions running at once.

This box is much more than a console

 

[onQ123]

Hell, I'm not even sure where anything is being confirmed on B3D... All just speculation and a bunch of new members asking questions.

lol

your avatar where is it from? is that a X inside the 8? like Xbox & Windows 8? which is also a loop & X is also 10?




Edit:


Xbox 720 Looks Legit & Windows Phone 8 Revealed! - IGN Daily Fix

 

[TheOddOne]

I'm now realising that this isnt just a minor thing here, this may be the biggest corporate secrets leak by a tech company of all time. Allows all their competitors to get ready to cockblock them.
Expect Apple & Google augmented reality glasses in the shops by next year.
Yeah i know about Google Glasses.

Still don't know what Sony can do to compete with this. I think the only thing they have is to give up the living room super-box dream and just make a shit hot machine and stick with the gamers.
Though then may still be stuck with sub-par ports, meh, next-gen is gonna be a bloodbath.

Then again, this document is from 2010. Multiple reports say that they have gone more agressive with the specs.

 

[iamshadowlark]

You're not getting 12gb of GDdr into a standard-built mid range pc.

Um could you just answer a question without making such smug statements? Especially when you're hilariously wrong. 12 GBs of GDDR is cake to fit inside a custom PC aka a dev kit.

 

[Ryoku]

Um could you just answer a question without making such smug statements? Especially when you're hilariously wrong. 12 GBs of GDDR is cake to fit inside a PC.

???

I think you're talking about DDR3. Not GDDR3/4/5. High end graphics cards have 2GB of GDDR5 memory (single GPU cards).

Besides, the rumor is that the devkits of the Xbox3 have 12GB DDR# memory, with Microsoft targetting 8GB.

 

[iamshadowlark]

???

I think you're talking about DDR3. Not GDDR3/4/5. High end graphics cards have 2GB of GDDR5 memory (single GPU cards).

Besides, the rumor is that the devkits of the Xbox3 have 12GB DDR# memory, with Microsoft targetting 8GB.

I know, I was asking him about the dev kit. They usually are custom built so they don't have normal constraints so yeah 12 GBs of GDDR whatever is highly plausible. The first PS3 box looked like this:

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I guess. I just wonder what the reasoning is to have all of the background functions running at once.

Being able to output different things to different devices at the same time?

I see--so they're going to market the thing as an all-around entertainment center as opposed to a video game system.

Interesting.

No different to what they're doing at the moment or what Sony's been doing with their consoles and portables for many years now.

 

[Globox_82]

Being able to output different things to different devices at the same time?




No different to what they're doing at the moment or what Sony's been doing with their consoles and portables for many years now.

Not really. I have yet to see one tv ad where either MS or Sony market their consoles for anything else other then games. Maybe in US its different.

 

[Ryoku]

I know, I was asking him about the dev kit. They usually are custom built so they don't have normal constraints so yeah 12 GBs of GDDR whatever is highly plausible. The first PS3 box looked like this:

Why do you think that 12GB GDDR memory is highly plausible in a devkit of a console that will not have 8GB of GDDR memory? I thought the rumor was 12GB DDR# in devkit with a target of 8GB DDR# in the console. Where did the GDDR come into play? Surely not purely due to the fact that devkits don't have normal console restraints, right? The fact that even high-end PCs don't have 8GB GDDR5 memory (let alone 12GB) should lead you to the idea that a console won't have that much GDDR5 memory, either--even in the devkits.

 

[monome]

I didn't even see the XBOX361-pass through-low cost- thing.

I'M EXCITE.
Just give me a HALO 4 themed one MS, and I'll forget I'm alreay buying a WiiU this year, and a 3DS XL...

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Not really. I have yet to see one tv ad where either MS or Sony market their consoles for anything else other then games. Maybe in US its different.

Marketing >>> TV ads.

 

[Globox_82]

man I want some solid leak of both PS4 and nextbox. Not some crap from 2+ years ago.

when did 360 stuff leak ?

 

[acm2000]

8 core cpu, 8gb ram, 7xxx gpu, and the 360 cpu too, sounds good to me, hope they let devs abuse the 360 gpu in xbox 3 games too, could offload stuff like ai, physics to the triple core ppc

 

[Globox_82]

8 core cpu, 8gb ram, 7xxx gpu, and the 360 cpu too, sounds good to me, hope they let devs abuse the 360 gpu in xbox 3 games too, could offload stuff like ai, physics to the triple core ppc

and what happened when you woke up?

 

[acm2000]

and what happened when you woke up?

well thats whats in this document, and the rumored specs from devs

 

[AzaK]

and 8gigs ddr4 in a console that can cost 300?(maybe with a kinect included)

Given the specs that just sounds mad unless.

1) MS take a massive loss
2) Wii U costs 11.95 to make


Btw: Is the doc available anywhere any more? Wouldn't mind taking a gander.

 

[acm2000]

Given the specs that just sounds mad unless.

1) MS take a massive loss
2) Wii U costs 11.95 to make

you forget how much sony lost on each ps3? wasnt it $400 or something crazy at launch

 

[Rösti]

Btw: Is the doc available anywhere any more? Wouldn't mind taking a gander.

It's available on Game Informer's site: http://www.gameinformer.com/cfs-fil...-SiteFiles/images-news-xbox720/xbox720doc.pdf

 

[GodfatherX]

you forget how much sony lost on each ps3? wasnt it $400 or something crazy at launch

historically all console makers take a loss at launch and recoup via license fees. Traditionally this loss has been around $50-150 per unit, the 360 fell in this range (I think around $100 for a core and $70 on a premium). The PS4 was the first I can remember with that large of a loss at launch.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Why do you think that 12GB GDDR memory is highly plausible in a devkit of a console that will not have 8GB of GDDR memory? I thought the rumor was 12GB DDR# in devkit with a target of 8GB DDR# in the console. Where did the GDDR come into play? Surely not purely due to the fact that devkits don't have normal console restraints, right? The fact that even high-end PCs don't have 8GB GDDR5 memory (let alone 12GB) should lead you to the idea that a console won't have that much GDDR5 memory, either--even in the devkits.

Sigh....try to keep up.


After I asked my question, steviep said there is not 12 GBs of DDR4 in the devkit. So I asked him which one is it, is there not 12GBs of ram or is there 12 GBs of GDDR5 or something. He then smugly/strangely replied with something about there is no way you are getting 12GBs in a standard built mid-range pc, which is irrelevant and doesn't provide any clarity at all. As I explained dev-kits are a different beast entirely.

And you are way off-base about PCs. For one GDDR isn't comercially available to consumers and secondly if you want to get technical, you can easily stick two 4GB cards in a high end pc to give you 8GBs or more if you desire. If you want 12GB nvidia does have special cards but they're more for professionals. So um yeah there are high-end PCs with 8GBs of GDDR5.

I probably shouldn't have asked stevie for info anyway cause welll........you see his tag

 

[KageMaru]

[/B]

Not really. I have yet to see one tv ad where either MS or Sony market their consoles for anything else other then games. Maybe in US its different.

What do you think the "It only does everything" marketing line refers to? =P

when did 360 stuff leak ?

2004 IIRC.

Sigh....try to keep up.


After I asked my question, steviep said there is not 12 GBs of DDR4 in the devkit. So I asked him which one is it, is there not 12GBs of ram or is there 12 GBs of GDDR5 or something. He then smugly/strangely replied with something about there is no way you are getting 12GBs in a standard built mid-range pc, which is irrelevant and doesn't provide any clarity at all. As I explained dev-kits are a different beast entirely.

And you are way off-base about PCs. For one GDDR isn't comercially available to consumers and secondly if you want to get technical, you can easily stick two 4GB cards in a high end pc to give you 8GBs or more if you desire. If you want 12GB nvidia does have special cards but they're more for professionals. So um yeah there are high-end PCs with 8GBs of GDDR5.

I probably shouldn't have asked stevie for info anyway cause welll........you see his tag

The amount of chips, not to mention the cost, for 8GB of GDDR5 would be a bit much for a console. Best people can hope for is a split pool of DDR and GDDR memory IMO.

 

[ExitPlanetDust]

Yes, please don't notice a Xbox361 is coming out in a few months, we don't want to impact Xbox360 sales. Please don't notice it's a "Project 10" XTV HDMI 1080P pass-thru similar to Sony Google TV Blu-ray pass-thru with similar features using Bing search, voice recognition, Kinect and Explorer with HTML5 apps instead of Android apps.

Hehe, yep.

 

[iamshadowlark]

The amount of chips, not to mention the cost, for 8GB of GDDR5 would be a bit much for a console. Best people can hope for is a split pool of DDR and GDDR memory IMO.

Well,


GDDR5 Is not really costly at all. I have the chart with component breakdown from the AMD briefing and can post it if you want. On amount of chips, AMD/Nvidia/Intel all have products with 8GBs GDDR5 on PCI-E sized cards coming late 2012/early 2013 and while I wouldn't personally bet on 8GB being the final number, for a Q3/4 2013 console it is hardly the unicorn you make it out to be. I'd say 6GBs GDDR5 with a 2 GB pool of DDR is a perfectly plausible estimate especially given the nature of the rather modest specs the document describe.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Digitimes rumor revisited July 2011: and microsoft-sony.com & sony-microsoft.com July 2011

Taiwanese component makers tell tech site DigiTimes that Sony is readying a new home console for 2012. But that's not the interesting part.
These component manufacturer sources tell DigiTimes that the PlayStation 4 PS3.5 - Xbox361 will feature body-movement controls like Microsoft's Kinect. That's the interesting, if not unexpected, part.

The PS3 currently has PlayStation Move motion controls, which are similar to the Wii's motion controls.

The report states Foxconn and Pegatron Technology will assemble the PS4 PS3.5 - Xbox361 for Sony. Foxconn and Pegatron Technology both assemble the PS3, which was originally manufactured in Japan.

Sources told DigiTimes that the 4 PS3.5 - Xbox361 will go into production at the end of 2011 for a 2012 launch. Apparently Sony will manufacture 20 million 4 PS3.5 - Xbox361 consoles for 2012.

Previously, Kotaku reported that 2014 seems likely for a new Sony or Microsoft console&#8212;2013 if either Sony or Microsoft feels pushed. 2013 seems like a far more realistic date for a new PlayStation 4 than 2012, which is next year.

Strike PS4 and substitute PS3.5 with HDMI Pass-thru or substitute Xbox361 for PS4.

Xbox361=PS3.5 = XTV with HDMI Pass-thru + Oban Japanese name + microsoft-sony.com & sony-microsoft.com July 2011

It's always bothered me, how can Sony sell 20 million in 1 year, the first year of a PS4 and likely at $399 or higher with few games. Xbox361 and PS3.5 having Exactly the same hardware sharing an economy of scale and SOC = inexpensive with little risk for each with a new XTV market and motion controls for both. Likely the SOC will have 1 gig of memory 2 PPC and 6 SPUs as well as state of the art I/O interfaces. Kinect interface with hardware support over what could be provided by a Xbox360 or PS3 and extra memory.

 

[Ashes]

urgh. Jeff. You're doing my head in.

 

[jeff_rigby]

urgh. Jeff. You're doing my head in.

I know but they are all describing the same thing and if Microsoft is releasing a XTV Xbox361 in 2012 then for sure Sony is releasing a PS3 with HDMI Pass-thru in 2012 as they both have been shown to be going after the same market with Sony even producing a Google TV and Google TV blu-ray with HDMI pass-thru.

You just have to consider them all rumors with some truth in them and it clicks. The authors of articles are confusing Next Xbox with Xbox 720 not Xbox361 and PS4 with PS3.5.

Get together and kill WiiU or rather keep current customers and grow a casual market that WiiU is targeting. Both Microsoft and Sony are planning to make money on XTV in all it's forms, WiiU apparently is not.

By the way this also means we are likely getting Backward compatibility on Both Xbox 720 and PS4 using the same PPC+SPU wafer and similar AMD GPU and support hardware to that in the SOC being used by both PS3.5 and Xbox361 with Emulation similar to the emulation both will use to emulate Xbox360 or PS3. BC should be the cost of the PPC+SPU wafer or about $30 (guess).

Big question is will the PPC and SPUs stay in the PS4 and Xbox 720 or will they be removed after 3 years? If they are staying then this augments (increases) the low latency CPU power in both for next generation Game console. If the Digitimes rumor is part accurate, only changing PS4 to PS3.5, then a final design and contracts were signed to manufacture it were in place July 2011. Microsoft registered the domain names sony-microsoft.com and microsoft-sony.com the same month. (Kinect interface was listed as in the PS3.5 which is to be released this 2012 holiday season). I guess it's possible that they are sharing just Kinect......but what advantage does Microsoft gain from this?

SPE 12/2009
Very good performance of general instructions
if(), switch(), for(), while() are fast in C/C++ language
Capable for different processing in parallel (Task parallel model)
2 SPEs for Physics engine, 2 SPEs for vision recognition, 2 SPEs for codec

GPGPU
Limited performance on general instructions
Not good for different processing in parallel (Task parallel model)
Suitable for processing large data with the same calculation (Data parallel model)

SPE is better for general purpose processing to adopt wide range of programming

This seems to indicate a use for SPUs in a PS4 and 6 months or so before the 1PPU4PPU patent was filed. The 1PPU4SPU module is compatible with the AMD HSA design.

 

[Death Dealer]

That screams fake, especially the final column of their timeline. I'm not buying it. It looks like a marketing intern threw it all together.

Microsoft's lawyers confirmed it was real. It's old but it's not fake. This is the plan they wanted to take back in 2010. And I've read on B3D rumor that Xbox next gen spec is finalized. Undoubtedly upgrade from this paper, well hopefully.
I think they had a different game plan than Sony. MS really had to think ahead with the hw, since they are attempting to do a ton more things than play games and movies. Sony was waiting up until last year and now to start looking at what chips are on the market and what they can build for a price, like vita. Cramming, it takes a year to design a console. And then production and QA takes several months. Supposedly PS4 design spec is still up in the air, I wonder if they do have two completely different systems - one mid range and one high end ? Not PS3 redesign but two possible versions of next gen. But some claim to know the latest SDKs now have 4GB GDDR5. Only 2GB in total against a possible 8GB MS system would be a big weakness. Sony should be finalizing soon, if they want to launch in 2013.

 

[LowEndTorque]

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.vg247.com/2012/06/22/leaked-56-page-xbox-document-broken-down-source-claims-legitimacy/