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[Shao Kahn Going Shopping]

Not really. The manuscript one could be useful for writers. Just not at the price and not for his suggestions. Tycho is a bit... uh... verbose at times and for most writers that isn't a good thing.

It really depends on how much you value their input. Jeez, the hourly rate...

 

[-COOLIO-]

Not really. The manuscript one could be useful for writers. Just not at the price and not for his suggestions. Tycho is a bit... uh... verbose at times and for most writers that isn't a good thing.

he knows hes verbose though and that's his personal style, but he's very well read and essentially writes a short story every two days so im assuming he's have more to offer than 'make it wordier'. i love thier comics and i think he has a lot of real wit, if i were filthy rich id be interested to know what he thought of a script or whatever that i wrote.

 

[Alvarius]

He uses verbosity for comedy, and I think he's funny.

Anyway, it comes down to whether he intends to edit what he's given -- like actually work with the writer -- or if 'offer suggestions' means an email that says: "Make it shorter." "Develop this guy."

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

He uses verbosity for comedy, and I think he's funny.

Anyway, it comes down to whether he intends to edit what he's given -- like actually work with the writer -- or if 'offer suggestions' means an email that says: "Make it shorter." "Develop this guy."

Here's the specific reward description: "Jerry Holkins will do a Beta Read of your work (novel or otherwise), providing notes and opinions throughout."

 

[-COOLIO-]

Here's the specific reward description: "Jerry Holkins will do a Beta Read of your work (novel or otherwise), providing notes and opinions throughout."

oh goddamn. could definitely be worth it then. i wonder if theirs a page limit, i imagine hes a very fast reader though.

 

[TheSeks]

He uses verbosity for comedy, and I think he's funny.

I'm not saying he's a bad writer, he isn't. But he takes five paragraphs in his "post of the day"/comic posting newsletter thing to say "we're playing this game. We are/aren't enjoying it. These are the reasons why: blah blah blah. There you have it."

He starts to wax poetic and that's really... not... "good" for most writers. For his style, that's great and all. But yeah... not good for most aspiring writers.

 

[Roland Garros]

I'm not saying he's a bad writer, he isn't. But he takes five paragraphs in his "post of the day"/comic posting newsletter thing to say "we're playing this game. We are/aren't enjoying it. These are the reasons why: blah blah blah. There you have it."

He starts to wax poetic and that's really... not... "good" for most writers. For his style, that's great and all. But yeah... not good for most aspiring writers.

That's his style though, there's no evidence to suggest he's not well-versed in the intricacies of what makes a good story. Throughout his career I think he's provided enough to suggest he's quite a good storyteller.

I can see why the style of his verbose news posts would irritate some people (personally I love it), but that's just one string to his bow.

 

[mclem]

I thought you weren't allowed to circumvent kickstarter like this?

Double Fine did the same; I think it's okay for high-ticket items that would be negotiated in special cases, but you can't circumvent Kickstarter (for instance, with Paypal) without having cleared your goal.

 

[Jintor]

Actually, for $2,500, depending on the size of your script or project, that's not actually terrible.

 

[Terra Firma]

Eh, they made PAX. They still have a ton of karma to burn.

It's not them I'm worried about. If this actually gets funded, it would legitimize any big producer or corporation using KS as another money-suck for its fans under similar BS reasons as this KS.

 

[mclem]

It's not them I'm worried about. If this actually gets funded, it would legitimize any big producer or corporation using KS as another money-suck for its fans under similar BS reasons as this KS.

Kickstarters (that aren't actually lying about what they're offering you!) are legitimised by their success (or otherwise).

If there's people out there willing to fund a project, it seems reasonable to allow them to do so.

 

[Gaspode_T]

I gave this same argument the other day - but I would be totally fine with this if it was on a sister site of kickstarter called "crowdfund.com" or something, funding existing things is totally different than funding new things...period!

 

[ultron87]

Kickstarters (that aren't actually lying about what they're offering you!) are legitimised by their success (or otherwise).

If there's people out there willing to fund a project, it seems reasonable to allow them to do so.

I do wonder when one of these high profile ones is going to just blow up in the backers faces. And I'm not suggesting that it is going to happen to any currently funding or ongoing ones, just that it has to happen eventually, right?

 

[Uncompromisable]

I think the big point of contention is that PA is a private company and therefore are worth something, say if they were to sell the website and characters. By giving them money for free it's maybe close to investing except that you don't get a stake in any of it despite actively contributing to their brandworth and product.

Now how is this really different from say Tim Schaffer which will end up selling his game for profit in the end?

 

[Shao Kahn Going Shopping]

Now how is this really different from say Tim Schaffer which will end up selling his game for profit in the end?

I'd say it'd only be similar if advertisers were going to pay for Tim's game initially, but if they didn't want that to happen and instead wanted the fans of the game to pay for its development, as it'll exist either way.

 

[Chris Remo]

I think the big point of contention is that PA is a private company and therefore are worth something, say if they were to sell the website and characters. By giving them money for free it's maybe close to investing except that you don't get a stake in any of it despite actively contributing to their brandworth and product.

Now how is this really different from say Tim Schaffer which will end up selling his game for profit in the end?

The Double Fine game would not have gotten made at all were it not for the Kickstarter. It would have been pretty much impossible to fund through other means.

 

[Loxley]

Forbes published a good article about this.

The objection regarding the amount of money that Penny Arcade want to raise is due, in my opinion, to a simple failure to understand the overheads involved in running a business employing 14 people. The objections based on it not being a ‘specific project’ strike me as ridiculous: It has a clear aim, is bounded in time and purpose, and the rewards are mostly of some genuine value even, so it clearly is a discrete project, even if it’s not the same sort of project as what we’re used to seeing. And the idea that already successful projects shouldn’t use Kickstarter is just weird: you need to have an established community before crowdfunding will even work for you, so cutting off the most successful would be self-defeating in the extreme for Kickstarter.

The amount of dogma that’s grown up around Kickstarter in the few short years it has been running is surprising. One Kickstarter commenter said “KS is generally reserved for new inventions”, which is clearly not the case. Many of the most successful projects are founded on the basis of an existing property. Order of the Stick, a web comic which has been around for nearly a decade, used Kickstarter to fund reprints of its existing books as well as new work, raising $1.2 million in the process. And smaller projects like Fireside Magazine and P Craig Russell’s Guide to Graphic Storytelling have used Kickstarter not just to do one issue, but a second and, in all likelihood, further issues as well.

 

[border]

Now how is this really different from say Tim Schaffer which will end up selling his game for profit in the end?

The people that supported DoubleFine are actually getting a game. The people that supported this are getting a banner ad removed.

 

[Uncompromisable]

The people that supported DoubleFine are actually getting a game. The people that supported this are getting a banner ad removed.

sure but it still reasonably voids the private vs. non-profit debate. I agree the value proposition sucks, but who knows, i bet at least half the kickstarted games have very dubious value propositions. Will the game ever get made and will it meet expectations?

 

[LiK]

The people that supported DoubleFine are actually getting a game. The people that supported this are getting a banner ad removed.

and whatever rewards you'll get depending on tier.

 

[gfdoom]

Once you have enuff hardcore fans, they'd pay for anything. PA's kickstarter proves it.

 

[GamerVoice]

Forbes published a good article about this.

I like how "using Kickstarter to fund a physical reprint of a book" is equated to "give us money so we don't have to worry about advertisers to keep doing the same shit we've done for years"

 

[LiK]

Goal reached.

 

[JonathanEx]

More stretchgoals added.

To be honest - if you take it as a year of comics, plus those extra things if reached, I think it's a pretty good project.

 

[SelfCon]

The Double Fine game would not have gotten made at all were it not for the Kickstarter. It would have been pretty much impossible to fund through other means.

Bingo.

 

[Ceebs]

I hope it reaches the podcast level. I really liked their podcasts when they would do them.

Why is one of goals not a new full length D&D podcast though?!

 

[Curufinwe]

I like how "using Kickstarter to fund a physical reprint of a book" is equated to "give us money so we don't have to worry about advertisers to keep doing the same shit we've done for years"

Is that a typo, or is her first name really Suw?

 

[Stormwatch]

Why can't they just make an iOS/Android app without raising $750,000? A lot of other online comics do that already.

 

[JonathanEx]

Why can't they just make an iOS/Android app without raising $750,000? A lot of other online comics do that already.

Because they're going to hire the world's most expensive app developer at $750k.

No, I kid. I presume it's a combination of time and resources and finances being elsewhere - including with ads, and importantly, not making things that mean people don't go to the website and so thus make less money.

 

[mik]

The Double Fine game would not have gotten made at all were it not for the Kickstarter. It would have been pretty much impossible to fund through other means.

That's utter nonsense.

 

[Stormwatch]

I presume it's a combination of time and resources and finances being elsewhere - including with ads, and importantly, not making things that mean people don't go to the website and so thus make less money.

That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Curufinwe]

That's utter nonsense.

No, it's the truth directly from Tim Schaefer's mouth.

http://www.giantbomb.com/news/16-million-and-counting/3981/

It was kind of out of necessity that we came up with a game--it was kind of as a sidenote. I was still nervous about, you know, if we just said “Hey, we’re making a game, give us $2 million.” That would have been hard. But then I thought about adventure games, and now that makes it an interesting proposition for fans because they’re able to fund something that we couldn’t have done without them. We could not have gone to a publisher and said we wanted to make a graphic adventure--at all. Maybe if we were only asking for $100,000 or something.

GB: Have you tried?

Schafer: I haven’t pitched a straight classic adventure. It’s just not worth it. I know, for a fact, [they would say no].

 

[GamerVoice]

No, it's the truth directly from Tim Schaefer's mouth.

http://www.giantbomb.com/news/16-million-and-counting/3981/

Well, he would say that.

 

[mik]

Also from him (and the Kickstarter page):

To finance the production, promotion, and distribution of these massive undertakings, companies like Double Fine have to rely on external sources like publishers, investment firms, or loans. And while they fulfill an important role in the process, their involvement also comes with significant strings attached that can pull the game in the wrong direction...

Crowd-sourced fundraising sites like Kickstarter have been an incredible boon to the independent development community... They give the developers the freedom to experiment, take risks, and design without anyone else compromising their vision.

Of course it would have been more difficult than simply asking their fans for money. But I don't believe for a second that there's no way DF could have raised $400 grand on their own. They'd have just had to work for it--the way lots of grown-ups do. I don't blame them for trading that for the ability to play with someone else's money--and having no real demands/responsibilities to deliver a return on that investment. It's nice work if you can get it.

 

[Curufinwe]

You can not believe it all you want, but I'll take his word over yours any day of the week since, you know, he's an actual developer of video games who deals with the demands of publishers all the time.

 

[mik]

...and wants donations to make his game.

 

[GamerVoice]

You can not believe it all you want, but I'll take his word over yours any day of the week since, you know, he's an actual developer of video games who deals with publishers all the time.

Didn't Notch offer to fund Psychonauts 2? I'm sure if he did there's also some ridiculous millionaire who would finance a 400k game.

 

[FyreWulff]

Also from him (and the Kickstarter page):



Of course it would have been more difficult than simply asking their fans for money. But I don't believe for a second that there's no way DF could have raised $400 grand on their own. They'd have just had to work for it--the way lots of grown-ups do. I don't blame them for trading that for the ability to play with someone else's money--and having no real demands/responsibilities to deliver a return on that investment. It's nice work if you can get it.

The game industry does not work like a Republican fantasyland. There are game genres that publishers will STRAIGHT UP not even consider. It doesn't matter how hard you "work for it", they will just not entertain the pitch at all.

 

[Curufinwe]

...and wants donations to make his game.

The minimum reward was $15 and includes a copy of the game, so no one who "donated" is going to go empty handed.

 

[Chris Remo]

Also from him (and the Kickstarter page):



Of course it would have been more difficult than simply asking their fans for money. But I don't believe for a second that there's no way DF could have raised $400 grand on their own. They'd have just had to work for it--the way lots of grown-ups do. I don't blame them for trading that for the ability to play with someone else's money--and having no real demands/responsibilities to deliver a return on that investment. It's nice work if you can get it.

Tim has found funding for an entire independent studio's worth of employees for 12 years across seven shipped games and several more in development. Almost every game is funded with a different kind of arrangement, based on what's feasible for the project's size, nature, and scope. Is that grown-up enough for you?

If you think the Kickstarter hasn't imposed a huge amount of responsibility on us, you're mistaken. An independent studio like Double Fine would be in huge trouble if it alienated nearly a hundred thousand of its fans.

 

[mik]

Exactly. Like I said, I don't really blame him for taking his foot off that particular pedal. Getting it made would not be impossible. It would be considerably more difficult.

 

[Chris Remo]

Exactly. Like I said, I don't really blame him for taking his foot off that particular pedal. Getting it made would not be impossible. It would be considerably more difficult.

The foot isn't even off that pedal. We have several other projects in development, nearly all of which is funded in a different way. As many feet as possible are on as many pedals as possible at all times. The Kickstarter and documentary process have also introduced a great deal of additional demands on time and attention that are not typically there during regular development cycles; it is not a method for autopilot.

 

[mik]

We have several other projects in development, nearly all of which is funded in a different way.

Those are non sequiturs to be proud of.

 

[Curufinwe]

Those are non sequiturs to be proud of.

So condescending and so ignorant at the same time.

 

[Roland Garros]

Those are non sequiturs to be proud of.

Can a mod change the t in unbeatable to an r?

 

[SouthernDragon]

It's almost as if mik thought he was posting on gameFAQs or something.

 

[Monocle]

Those are non sequiturs to be proud of.

Wow, I mean really?

 

[FStop7]

Somebody's trying to make a name for himself.

 

[FyreWulff]

Guys I can totally get my super-niche genre game funded. I just have to convince people with lots of money to make a bad investment. If I just try hard enough and put heart into it, they'll part with all their money!

 

[HyperCubed4]

It's almost as if mik thought he was posting on gameFAQs or something.

Now now, let's not say anything rash. Besides, do game developers ever post on GameFAQs anymore? Pretty sure they retired the "VIP" level years ago.

I can see where the Penny Arcade guys are coming from; they want to be funded by the fans, not the advertisers. But does it really hinder them to be funded by the advertisers? I can see the intent, but I don't think it's necessary.

As for mik... wow. I don't know what to say, really.