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Halo |OT8| A Salt on the Control Room

F

FyreWulff

Member
Cabbie said:
If they reskinned the Plasma Launcher as a UNSC missile-pod like weapon I bet more people would have picked it up. That and un-nerfing it..
Click to expand...

Well, they did re-skin the missile pod in Reach.

5906550130_966a57d4da.jpg
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
Woorloog said:
Lock-on micro-missile launcher?
Cool.

It does seem people skip using the Covie weapons at times just because they're not human weapons... shouldn't be a design consideration though, since only stupid or bad people do that.

I feel people didn't use the Plasma Launcher because it was difficult to use... and it wasn't that common either. Of Reach's default, non-user-forged vehicle maps, Hemorrhage had it... any others? Can't remember.
Click to expand...

People have skipped over the Covy weapons because for whatever reason, Bungie has always made most of the Covy weapons blatantly inferior to the UNSC ones.

Hopefully 343 bucks that trend.
 
R

Risen

Member
bobs99 ... said:
It was a LOT easier to get laser dominance and vehicle dominance than it would be to get full power weapon dominance in MLG. On Standoff for example, in Team Slayer we would just take the hog, drive it over Laser Spawn to protect it, our guy would run in grab it, and within 15 seconds we had full control. Of course they had a hog, but with out laser it was easy to take them out. If the other team had a opening gambit, then things might get messier, but most of the time, the team that grabbed the laser within the opening of the match had full dominance for the full match.
.
Click to expand...

So what if my team does the same? See my post above... we have a clash over the power weapon and the winning team in that interaction profits... as they should. In your example, you out-played the other team.

Now - modify the rate of spawn, number of shots, and make dang sure the spawn point makes sense... and it's a weapon well designed.

The power of the laser was never the problem...

@Steely... no, it's not rock, paper, scissors game play. Those that hate it and defend it because they "want interesting vehicle-anti-vehicle combat" almost universally have the root of their argument in "it kills me too easily". Both sides DO have control over the game play, and in fact there is more control available with the laser in the game... and that's what many people decry. They think that control is bad. They despise seeing a team with a power weapon AND vehicles and blame the problem on the weapon rather than their own inability to control it, or the other team's ability to do the same.

It's over powered because it doesn't warn me
It's over powered because I am in a vehicle and I should be able to kill easily
It's over powered because it too easily kills me
It's over powered because the other team could get it
It's over powered because it's not interesting/nuanced enough

Those are the thoughts portrayed when hating on it...

I totally agree that it had too many shots, that on many maps or types there were too many of them placed, and perhaps even on too fast a respawn... but that's the end of the issue for me.

Power weapons should be powerful... they should not be slow, ineffective, or weak in any way. They should be modified by how many are placed, where placed, and amount of ammo. Then let two teams go at it and let the better team slap the worse team.


PS: Have I ever stated how much I love laser debate? It's almost a sure bet I'll post when I see laser posted. Now - I must work.
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
Steelyuhas said:
People have skipped over the Covy weapons because for whatever reason, Bungie has always made most of the Covy weapons blatantly inferior to the UNSC ones.

Hopefully 343 bucks that trend.
Click to expand...

Also true, though i wouldn't be surprised if some people simply don't use "because aliens".
Ah, Halo Reach beta Covie weapons... the Plasma Repeater, Needle Rifle, Plasma Pistol and Plasma Launcher, all so damn good.
Each one was nerferd for retail, in the Plasma Pistol's case its normal shot damage was nerfed needlessy, people rarely used that function in the beta.
 
F

feel

Member
Ramirez said:
Wait, is that a contest to have a drink with a bunch of MLG pros?

lol
Click to expand...
I laughed too.

But maybe they have +1s to some company's private cocktail party. Though it's hard to believe those guys wouldn't have some buddies that they would bring in to some cocktail party with them instead of unknown randoms off twitter if that were the case.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
Risen said:
@Steely... no, it's not rock, paper, scissors game play. Those that hate it and defend it because they "want interesting vehicle-anti-vehicle combat" almost universally have the root of their argument in "it kills me too easily". Both sides DO have control over the game play, and in fact there is more control available with the laser in the game... and that's what many people decry. They think that control is bad. They despise seeing a team with a power weapon AND vehicles and blame the problem on the weapon rather than their own inability to control it, or the other team's ability to do the same.

It's over powered because it doesn't warn me
It's over powered because I am in a vehicle and I should be able to kill easily
It's over powered because it too easily kills me
It's over powered because the other team could get it
It's over powered because it's not interesting/nuanced enough

Those are the thoughts portrayed when hating on it...

I totally agree that it had too many shots, that on many maps or types there were too many of them placed, and perhaps even on too fast a respawn... but that's the end of the issue for me.

Power weapons should be powerful... they should not be slow, ineffective, or weak in any way. They should be modified by how many are placed, where placed, and amount of ammo. Then let two teams go at it and let the better team slap the worse team.
Click to expand...

It's not about the power of the weapon for me, it's that it's a horrible weapon. It's an automatic kill, if I have the laser the other team can't use vehicles, period, and vice versa. That is rock-paper-scissors balance right there, there is no skill gap, there is no chance for either side, it's a pre-determined outcome.

Weapons like the Plasma Pistol, nades, brute shots, railguns, plasma launchers, rockets, etc give both the anti-vehicle and vehicle players room to execute an attempt at either destroying a vehicle or avoiding being destroyed. Gives more control to the player, gives players out and in vehicles more challenges and more interesting combat scenarios.
Woorloog said:
Also true, though i wouldn't be surprised if some people simply don't use "because aliens".
Ah, Halo Reach beta Covie weapons... the Plasma Repeater, Needle Rifle, Plasma Pistol and Plasma Launcher, all so damn good.
Each one was nerferd for retail, in the Plasma Pistol's case its normal shot damage was nerfed needlessy, people rarely used that function in the beta.
Click to expand...

I would agree that there's a possibility that some of it is people just gravitate to the UNSC weapons because they are the human weapons.

Shame nearly everything in the Covy sandbox was nerfed for Reach retail, much better balance in the beta.
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
Its not that it's necessarily overpowered... Though I think it is...

Its that it feels super cheap. You can get killed from anywhere on the map instantaneously. Just wasn't fun to get killed by that thing. Lock ons were much more interesting. Do you fire normally or spend an extra few seconds locking on. You can see the projectile coming.
 
F

Fracas

#fuckonami
Tawpgun said:
Laser debate?

There is no debate, its a dumb weapon.

Its a second sniper rifle.
Kills vehicles with no warning.
Any range.
EZ mode.

I love spontaneously combusting in vehicles.

Lock on rockets were perfect.
Click to expand...
I mostly agree with this.

I will also add that if the Laser must exist, let drivers have some kind of defense. Maybe flares or something.
 
R

Redford

aka Cabbie
Woorloog said:
Flares would be useful against missiles...
Smoke screen for more all around defense?
Click to expand...

The smokescreen idea is the only one that would work without being super fan-wanky.

Franklinator said:
so you want a counter to the laser, which is a counter to a vehicle
Click to expand...

This is someone else's idea, but I'd be fine if they just took the laser and made it like the focus rifle. You have to hold down for a second or two (after a short charge time, still).

Edit: Also, a smaller hip-fire reticule would go a long way.
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
monsterfracas said:
I mostly agree with this.

I will also add that if the Laser must exist, let drivers have some kind of defense. Maybe flares or something.
Click to expand...
I was thinking more along the line of if you start charging the laser, there's no stopping it, its gonna fire.

And at the same time your vehicle will give you a warning that there's a large energy spike in the local area.
 
T

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Are we talking about previous iterations specifically or how it will play out in Halo 4? I don't see the laser becoming the beastly sniper that is was in Halo 4.
 
ElRenoRaven

ElRenoRaven

Member
Yea I'm in and have always been in the Laser sucks total ass and should not have ever been added camp. Ruined Vehicular combat in halo totally. I'd even take the insane rocket lock on rocket before I'd take the laser.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
Risen said:
Then you were outplayed and do not deserve to be saved from that fate. You might as well be arguing that it's not fair for people to have all the power weapons in an MLG game on The Pit. If they do... it's YOUR fault, not the weapons and has nothing to do with it's balance.
Click to expand...

Joke post?

Teams could jump out to 50+ point leads because of one single encounter that happened in the first few seconds of the match, laughable to try and defend something like that.
 
D

daedalius

Member
I liked the new FUD video, should have some interesting characters.

Will be out of country for first episode, but I'm sure I'll catch it when I get back :p
 
A

Arnie

Member
My appreciation for anything FUD based is a direct exponent of how I'm feeling about Halo 4, so the video could've been the Master Chief playing tennis with a young Sergeant Johnson and I'd still have been ambivalent as fuck. The extent to which 343 are botching the promotion and unveiling of Halo 4 is sapping all my excitement for the franchise and it's expanded fiction.

FUD's a nice cherry on top of the cake, but without the cake it's just a cherry, and I'm fucking starving.
 
K

kylej

Banned
Risen said:
Then you were outplayed and do not deserve to be saved from that fate. You might as well be arguing that it's not fair for people to have all the power weapons in an MLG game on The Pit. If they do... it's YOUR fault, not the weapons and has nothing to do with it's balance.

People seriously gripe about no warning from a power weapon? And call it bad... they call it bad because it killed easily. The only support for it being poor is entirely centered around not being able to run mostly unchecked in a vehicle. And if not that, then the argument is that there were other weapons that also killed and were better because they were more elegant in that they gave more notice, or were slower moving... all of which boils down to they were better because they were less effective. Which is only to say that in the end, people enjoy the easy kills a vehicle provide, but they don't enjoy getting killed easily.

Get out...

Complain that there were too many, or it had too many shots, or that it was poorly placed... those are good arguments. Arguing that it is too powerful in the hands of infantry against vehicles is a terrible position in terms of game play balance. How many multi-kills were there in hogs on a map with a laser? (looking at you Standoff)?

In the end... if you are going to include very powerful vehicles in a game with infantry, there MUST be a powerful counter... you balance it by frequency of spawn, number of shots, and location.

Then the game plays like Halo... a level field (in terms of map and objects on map), with availability of that "imperfect balance" which is attained by skillful individual/team play, combined with control of weapons on the map.
Click to expand...

The Real Napsta said:
The Laser isn't OP, its a power weapon to control, just like anything else.

Don't have laser? Don't get in vehicles until you do. Simple.
Click to expand...

yep
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
The Real Napsta said:
The Laser isn't OP, its a power weapon to control, just like anything else.

Don't have laser? Don't get in vehicles until you do. Simple.
Click to expand...

An issue with this is that many maps are very difficult, if not impossible to control without either power weapons or vehicles. (Along with small idiotic things like Spartan Laser respawning while one is still in use with ammo)
But of course it could be argued this is a map design issue, giving too much weight for power weapons or vehicles.

Me, i don't have any real problem with the laser, i'd just make it somewhat easier to detect and nerf it slightly (one less shot, no scope).
 
T

The Real Napsta

Member
malfcn said:
Playing some Reach game me the Halo itch again, and learning towards the LE. But will those maps even be playable? Because I had Defiant, and except for the first week it was out I have never seen them.
Click to expand...

Having all the dlc makes it easier to get matches on dlc from my experience. I get matches on dlc semi regularly.
 
D

DesertFox

Member
Arnie said:
My appreciation for anything FUD based is a direct exponent of how I'm feeling about Halo 4, so the video could've been the Master Chief playing tennis with a young Sergeant Johnson and I'd still have been ambivalent as fuck. The extent to which 343 are botching the promotion and unveiling of Halo 4 is sapping all my excitement for the franchise and it's expanded fiction.

FUD's a nice cherry on top of the cake, but without the cake it's just a cherry, and I'm fucking starving.
Click to expand...

haha - yeah same here. FUD looks cool but that one Bulletin we got about it a few weeks back I was kinda upset that it took the spotlight off of potential H4 news.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
Got to say I like the laser, it promotes power weapon control it's useless in face to face contact and it's exclusively a vehicle counter for the majority of maps it's on, it's barely effectI've on a map like construct because it's so tight.

Rockets are a much worse offender in most smaller maps but even those are fine

4 shots and a longer charge time should help towards balancing
 
Hitmonchan107

Hitmonchan107

Member
Gazzawa said:
Just read it at the shop.
Click to expand...

The entire magazine is well-written and worth picking up. EDGE tells it straight -- i.e. their remark about the community's reaction to Halo 4's multiplayer. I love their willingness to point out troublesome areas, unlike other magazines that pretend every game is the Next Big Thing. If a publication as reserved as EDGE is excited about Halo 4, my hype is exponentially increased.
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
FyreWulff said:
Yes it did, even Halo 2 has a simple version of it

People like to downplay the technical feats of each Halo engine for some reason that I'll never understand
Click to expand...

Didn't Halo 3 tesselate the water? And Reach doesn't?

EDIT someone compared Halo 3 and Reach water in that same thread Plywood linked.
 
H

higherARC05

Banned
Woorloog said:
Didn't Halo 3 tesselate the water? And Reach doesn't?

EDIT someone compared Halo 3 and Reach water in that same thread Plywood linked.
Click to expand...

They both tessellated water. Just that in HALO 3 the water was interactive to a great part in all water found in the game.

Reach had interactive water but it was limited to some locations. But you can glitch the water where it wasn't suppose to interact by getting your torso in the water like in the first level in the river. Some reason the artists/engineers wanted to limit the interaction but it was still the same tech as HALO 3.

edit- And yes Frankie, I spend loads of time exploring and experimenting every single thing in any HALO game. So your water in HALO 4 better be lick-a-licious :)
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
higherARC05 said:
They both tessellated water. Just that in HALO 3 the water was interactive to a great part in all water found in the game.

Reach had interactive water but it was limited to some locations. But you can glitch the water where it wasn't suppose to interact by getting your torso in the water like in the first level in the river. Some reason the artists/engineers wanted to limit the interaction but it was still the same tech as HALO 3.
Click to expand...

Ah, i see. I guess the interactivity ate resources too much?
A shame really, water in Halo 3 was so great.
 
nillapuddin

nillapuddin

Member
Can the water in Reach carry weapons and stuff along a "current"?

I distinctly remember BR-ing a player with a shotgun on Valhalla on the stream, then someone else came at me, as I went to reload I accidently held it to hard and picked up the guys Shotgun and 1-shotted my attacker, we were like 10 or more feet down from where I started

Watching the replay was pretty awesome, the shotty literally followed me down stream
 
R

Risen

Member
Tashi said:
Nah I always played CS on PC. Better competition there too.



Don't know when I'll be home tonight but I will definitely do that.
Click to expand...

The "better competition" is because everyone can aim with a mouse lol, not because there are so many skilled players.

@ Ray... I'll be on... just not sure when.
 
F

Franklinator

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
The answer is clearly Rayman Origins, anyway

or perhaps Yoshi's Island

It's not all about fancy shaders and lighting effects, ya know

http://gamesters.org/Image/covers/yoshis-island-super-mario-advance-3/yoshis-island-super-mario-advance-3-image194683.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

True that

2D>3D
Click to expand...
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
nillapuddin said:
Can the water in Reach carry weapons and stuff along a "current"?

I distinctly remember BR-ing a player with a shotgun on Valhalla on the stream, then someone else came at me, as I went to reload I accidently held it to hard and picked up the guys Shotgun and 1-shotted my attacker, we were like 10 or more feet down from where I started

Watching the replay was pretty awesome, the shotty literally followed me down stream
Click to expand...

I believe it can, or has the ability to. It was mentioned in the Legendary commentary for Reach that there used to be a bug in the first level where Noble Team would get washed down the river because they were considered light enough for the current to pick them up
 
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