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Halo |OT9| One Final Effort Is All That Remains

B

bobs...onGaf

Member
FyreWulff said:
It doesn't solve it completely but it gets rid of a lot of it. People are going to quit under any system. It was a goddamn scourge in Halo 2.

I dunno, I'm just coming from a different perspective, having studied and built mental and social elements of game matching systems. Terms like loss anxiety and player expectation are seared into my brain.
Click to expand...

I haven't read into that stuff, but it seems strange voting and losing the vote is statistically proven to retain players? I thought it would be the other way... Lose the vote and you want to quit because the option you find fun was vetoed and something you dislike came up. That's phycologically pretty powerful, and I know it has put me off matches in the past.

I personally like voting systems and think the games better for them, but i don't think I believe that they help retain players if a player loses the vote, I imagine they have the potential to be damaging in some circumstances. Not that I care, I still prefer choice to no choice.
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
Wahrer Machine said:
Feels like Halo. This gif needs more love, it gives me major Halo CE vibes right down to the Suppressor, which seems like the Halo CE Plasma Rifle and the Plasma Repeater had a kid that looked mostly like the Plasma Rifle, acted like the Repeater, and grew up into a really sexy combination of both.
Click to expand...
Looks like Metroid!
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
bobs99 ... said:
I haven't read into that stuff, but it seems strange voting and losing the vote is statistically proven to retain players? I thought it would be the other way... Lose the vote and you want to quit because the option you find fun was vetoed and something you dislike came up. That's phycoligically pretty powerful, and I know it has put me off matches in the past.

I personally like voting systems and think the games better for them, but i don't think I believe that they help retain players.
Click to expand...

343 still sees failed votes in Reach (and I assume Halo 4). So if you vote for CTF and it loses out to Assault, 343 still gets the data that you wanted CTF but didn't quite get the votes. When they see a lot of players doing this, they then know that CTF should be weighted more so the voting results improve.

And yes, voting systems are proven to retain players and reduce quitting. All my docs would be internal memos and the like, but there's a reason more and more developers have started hiring people with psychology degrees.

It's really the same concept that if I tell everyone they can either have pie or cake and I'll choose it randomly, more people are going to be pissed than if I let them vote on having the pie or cake as a group. Or if you've had a kid or a younger sibling, giving them a vote (even if you rig it) will go over better than if you just say "you're doing this now".
 
B

bobs...onGaf

Member
FyreWulff said:
343 still sees failed votes in Reach (and I assume Halo 4). So if you vote for CTF and it loses out to Assault, 343 still gets the data that you wanted CTF but didn't quite get the votes. When they see a lot of players doing this, they then know that CTF should be weighted more so the voting results improve.

And yes, voting systems are proven to retain players and reduce quitting. All my docs would be internal memos and the like, but there's a reason more and more developers have started hiring people with psychology degrees.

It's really the same concept that if I tell everyone they can either have pie or cake and I'll choose it randomly, more people are going to be pissed than if I let them vote on having the pie or cake as a group. Or if you've had a kid or a younger sibling, giving them a vote (even if you rig it) will go over better than if you just say "you're doing this now".
Click to expand...

Yeah it's good to see phycology being taken more seriously, it ties very heavily with ux but people seem to disregard it which is stupid.

I would to have a job in the gaming industry that centred around designing for player behaviour, would be very interesting.
 
G

GodlyPerfection

Member
FyreWulff said:
343 still sees failed votes in Reach (and I assume Halo 4). So if you vote for CTF and it loses out to Assault, 343 still gets the data that you wanted CTF but didn't quite get the votes. When they see a lot of players doing this, they then know that CTF should be weighted more so the voting results improve.

And yes, voting systems are proven to retain players and reduce quitting. All my docs would be internal memos and the like, but there's a reason more and more developers have started hiring people with psychology degrees.

It's really the same concept that if I tell everyone they can either have pie or cake and I'll choose it randomly, more people are going to be pissed than if I let them vote on having the pie or cake as a group. Or if you've had a kid or a younger sibling, giving them a vote (even if you rig it) will go over better than if you just say "you're doing this now".
Click to expand...

Matchmaking game selection plays a huge role in quitting and player retaining. I sat here for a bit thinking of a system that may promote more positive feelings on the decisions. Rather than having teams lose a vote and have to play a gametype/map combination, what would happen if we let each team pick either the map or the gametype one after the other? I haven't spent any time fleshing out scenarios or feelings, but wanted to throw it out there for discussion while this topic is still current. :)

I feel like something like this would result in a more positive reaction to the selection. Losing out would be local to the team which would typically much easier to accept than losing out to opponents in the voting process. One team would pick the map and the other team would pick the gametype on the map so each team would get at least one thing they want. So say we are playing objective... "Well since they picked Swordbase, let's not pick oddball and instead vote for Stockpile." I foresee this creating more reasonable combinations being picked. And in the end each team can be satisfied that at least they got the map/gametype they wanted. Only a few individuals would be disappointed, but it wouldn't be too bad because those they lost out to would be aligned with them not against them.

Now of course other scenarios like free-for-all and randoms need to be analyzed, but it could be a start to something. Another problem with this is a bit more time taken for the selection process, but that may be an acceptable price to pay for a more complimentary and more widely accepted selection. I also haven't taken the time to think about how this would affect the data mining side of things, but it was a quick idea to throw out there for discussion. I may take some time to flesh it out more and tweak it to something that could really work.

Thoughts?
 
J

JohnOfMars

Banned
Need some help, HaloGAF. I think I'm going insane dealing with my Xbox.

Does anyone connect their Xbox to a monitor?

My Xbox Slim displays black bars at the top & bottom for the monitor's native resolution. It didn't use to do this.

LGw4Pl.jpg


The native resolution is 1680 x 1050. I've selected that on the Xbox. But it doesn't display properly. No resolution displays properly. And the monitor works just fine and dandy with my laptop. My monitor has no stretch or position toggles. Microsoft Tech Support said that it's the monitor's fault. I tried it on 3 different monitors. All the same result. Tech support then replied that I shouldn't use a monitor even if the resolution is supported. I was advised to use a TV only since the Xbox doesn't really display anything but 720p & 1080p. I've tried different cables, too: HDMI straight, HDMI to DVI & the official Microsoft VGA cord.

Can anyone with an Xbox and monitor confirm whether this is something that's always been there and that I'm insane or if this is indeed an error?

Thank you so much. Sorry to hijack the thread; I just didn't know where else to turn.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
bobs99 ... said:
Yeah it's good to see phycology being taken more seriously, it ties very heavily with ux but people seem to disregard it which is stupid.

I would to have a job in the gaming industry that centred around designing for player behaviour, would be very interesting.
Click to expand...

Speaking of which, I'll answer the PM you sent me during PAX, I just finally saw them now.

Also Homeboyd, PMs


Epyon MX said:
Need some help, HaloGAF. I think I'm going insane dealing with my Xbox.

Does anyone connect their Xbox to a monitor?

My Xbox Slim displays black bars at the top & bottom for the monitor's native resolution. It didn't use to do this.

LGw4Pl.jpg


The native resolution is 1680 x 1050. I've selected that on the Xbox. But it doesn't display properly. No resolution displays properly. And the monitor works just fine and dandy with my laptop. Microsoft Tech Support said that it's the monitor's fault. I tried it on 3 different monitors. All the same result. Tech support then replied that I shouldn't use a monitor even if the resolution is supported. I was advised to use a TV only since the Xbox doesn't really display anything but 720p & 1080p. I've tried different cables, too: HDMI straight, HDMI to DVI & the official Microsoft VGA cord.

Can anyone with an Xbox and monitor confirm whether this is something that's always been there and that I'm insane or if this is indeed an error?

Thank you so much. Sorry to hijack the thread; I just didn't know where else to turn.
Click to expand...

My Xbox here in Nebraska is hooked up via VGA and doesn't have problems, although it's a standard 1080p monitor. It worked fine in 1280x1024 before though. You sure your monitor doesn't have something like a crop or scale function turned on/off?

edit: it might also be that your monitor forgot the vertical stretch settings and you have to go set them again for that resolution mode
 
M

MaDGaMEZ

Neo Member
Epyon MX said:
Need some help, HaloGAF. I think I'm going insane dealing with my Xbox.

Does anyone connect their Xbox to a monitor?

My Xbox Slim displays black bars at the top & bottom for the monitor's native resolution. It didn't use to do this.

LGw4Pl.jpg


The native resolution is 1680 x 1050. I've selected that on the Xbox. But it doesn't display properly. No resolution displays properly. And the monitor works just fine and dandy with my laptop. My monitor has no stretch or position toggles. Microsoft Tech Support said that it's the monitor's fault. I tried it on 3 different monitors. All the same result. Tech support then replied that I shouldn't use a monitor even if the resolution is supported. I was advised to use a TV only since the Xbox doesn't really display anything but 720p & 1080p. I've tried different cables, too: HDMI straight, HDMI to DVI & the official Microsoft VGA cord.

Can anyone with an Xbox and monitor confirm whether this is something that's always been there and that I'm insane or if this is indeed an error?

Thank you so much. Sorry to hijack the thread; I just didn't know where else to turn.
Click to expand...

Double check the native resolution on the monitor? I use a Samsung Series 7 and don't have this issue using HDMI on my Xbox, I have it to automatically detect. I used to use an alienware and it detected it as a monitor and gave me all the different resolutions I could use, what do you have your display settings at? Also what model Dell is that, with that res its probably because 16:10 is the ratio where Xbox does 16:9 so its giving the bars, if this was not the case before there should be a stretch setting to the monitor.
 
R

Risen

Member
FyreWulff said:
343 still sees failed votes in Reach (and I assume Halo 4). So if you vote for CTF and it loses out to Assault, 343 still gets the data that you wanted CTF but didn't quite get the votes. When they see a lot of players doing this, they then know that CTF should be weighted more so the voting results improve.
.
Click to expand...




While they see it, and record it, what they get from it is up to interpretation. How do they know I voted for CTF, the map, or the game type settings (such as BR starts)... Or even that I voted the lesser of all evils?

They cannot... there are too many variables and subjective reasoning that goes into the vote. The only way to help the data being collected be interpreted correctly is to offer fewer variables within the vote.

Otherwise, they may have no idea if CTF lost to Assault, or if Countdown lost to Zealot, or if AR's lost to DMR's.

Point being... the voting system needs to change drastically in order for the data to have real use.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Epyon MX said:
Need some help, HaloGAF. I think I'm going insane dealing with my Xbox.

Does anyone connect their Xbox to a monitor?

My Xbox Slim displays black bars at the top & bottom for the monitor's native resolution. It didn't use to do this.

LGw4Pl.jpg


The native resolution is 1680 x 1050. I've selected that on the Xbox. But it doesn't display properly. No resolution displays properly. And the monitor works just fine and dandy with my laptop. My monitor has no stretch or position toggles. Microsoft Tech Support said that it's the monitor's fault. I tried it on 3 different monitors. All the same result. Tech support then replied that I shouldn't use a monitor even if the resolution is supported. I was advised to use a TV only since the Xbox doesn't really display anything but 720p & 1080p. I've tried different cables, too: HDMI straight, HDMI to DVI & the official Microsoft VGA cord.

Can anyone with an Xbox and monitor confirm whether this is something that's always been there and that I'm insane or if this is indeed an error?

Thank you so much. Sorry to hijack the thread; I just didn't know where else to turn.
Click to expand...
Your monitor is 16:10, so if you'd have vertical stretching if you wanted it to use the whole screen. Some monitors offer different scaling options, but seeing as yours doesn't have anything to fiddle with I'd say you should just deal with the letterboxing. You get the proper aspect ratio this way.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Risen said:
While they see it, and record it, what they get from it is up to interpretation. How do they know I voted for CTF, the map, or the game type settings (such as BR starts)... Or even that I voted the lesser of all evils?

They cannot... there are too many variables and subjective reasoning that goes into the vote. The only way to help the data being collected be interpreted correctly is to offer fewer variables within the vote.

Otherwise, they may have no idea if CTF lost to Assault, or if Countdown lost to Zealot, or if AR's lost to DMR's.

Point being... the voting system needs to change drastically in order for the data to have real use.
Click to expand...

You can figure out trends and if it's the map or gametype or the combination with math. The problem with making voting too granular is then people spend too much time at the voting stage and not at the playing stage.

Of course you can solve some this by making matchmaking more streamlined.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
I'm 80% sure I'm buying Borderlands 2 on launch day. I'll definitely want to get a HaloGAF crew going.
 
C

Computron

Member
Rickenslacker said:
Your monitor is 16:10, so if you'd have vertical stretching if you wanted it to use the whole screen. Some monitors offer different scaling options, but seeing as yours doesn't have anything to fiddle with I'd say you should just deal with the letterboxing. You get the proper aspect ratio this way.
Click to expand...

yep.

I had this on an older 16:10 monitor but then I tried it on a newer one with scaling and it filled the screen.
 
D

Demoncarnotaur

Member
Hypertrooper said:
The core mechanic of Halo 4 is like Halo. At least if "Core mechanic"="Core gameplay"

Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn - Joyride
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks for posting. Ok, I love the fact that he has a HUD, we now know what it looks like inside a marines helmet, haha. Weird that they have radar and ODSTs don't though. I can't wait to see the Warthog in action during FUD, I expect good things. One question though, why does it sound so funny?

Shadders said:
All of you complaining about the Promethean design will be the first to complain when they change it in Halo 5.
Click to expand...

Really? Im not allowed to dislike a design? And if the design changed in Halo 5 in a way that made sense, I really don't see myself complaining. Especially since its all armor and has room to change dramatically.

lybertyboy said:
We shot a fun segment with the GB crew earlier this week. Expect new footage of previously seen content. Don't expect pro-level donging.
Click to expand...

Oh nice, it should be fun to watch and listen to em talk about it.. GB vids are always fun to watch.

kylej said:
was browsing that movie picture thread

Tron+Legacy+Olivia+Wilde+on+Couch.jpg


now I see where that new cortana haircut comes from. I dig.
Click to expand...

Yup, I really can't see that as being a coincidence either.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
FyreWulff said:
You can figure out trends and if it's the map or gametype or the combination with math. The problem with making voting too granular is then people spend too much time at the voting stage and not at the playing stage.

Of course you can solve some this by making matchmaking more streamlined.
Click to expand...

We actually get really good data, but the thing that always breaks all voting data is vertical ordering and passive/inattentive players. There isn't another way to do it, but you get most of the viable data from "exceptions" as well as other more nuanced patterns.
 
W

willow ve

Member
FyreWulff said:
343 still sees failed votes in Reach (and I assume Halo 4). So if you vote for CTF and it loses out to Assault, 343 still gets the data that you wanted CTF but didn't quite get the votes. When they see a lot of players doing this, they then know that CTF should be weighted more so the voting results improve.

And yes, voting systems are proven to retain players and reduce quitting. All my docs would be internal memos and the like, but there's a reason more and more developers have started hiring people with psychology degrees.

It's really the same concept that if I tell everyone they can either have pie or cake and I'll choose it randomly, more people are going to be pissed than if I let them vote on having the pie or cake as a group. Or if you've had a kid or a younger sibling, giving them a vote (even if you rig it) will go over better than if you just say "you're doing this now".
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that data they collect is very skewed. You can't determine the statistics when the voting is made public in real time. If you give 12 people the choice of 4 restaurants and each person gets a single, public, vote by the 7th or 8th person they're no longer voting for what they actually want, but what they can live with based on the two most popular choices.

I might really really want Taco Bell - but Long John Silvers and Burger King each have 3 votes already when I vote... So I choose BK. I didn't actually want to go to BK, but the public nature of the vote skewed my data.

Does 343 collect data on what every first click is in matchmaking? Because a lot of people change their vote after more have been cast.

FyreWulff said:
It was only mentioned that they can see non-winning votes, we don't know if they track what you hit first.
Click to expand...

And therein lies the caveat; if they can't see what I really wanted, which is what I voted right off the bat, then their data is skewed. They're essentially seeing the lesser of two evils (essentially the same as American Presidential Elections).
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Stinkles said:
We actually get really good data, but the thing that always breaks all voting data is vertical ordering and passive/inattentive players. There isn't another way to do it, but you get most of the viable data from "exceptions" as well as other more nuanced patterns.
Click to expand...

Was it ever considered to turn on Reach's ability to hide/lock votes in more MM playlists? I know it supports this. That's one aspect I never really got into because nothing I worked on had that ability. I dunno if that's just something only Arena can do


willow ve said:
Yeah, but that data they collect is very skewed. You can't determine the statistics when the voting is made public in real time. If you give 12 people the choice of 4 restaurants and each person gets a single, public, vote by the 5th or 6th person they're no longer voting for what they actually want, but what they can live with based on the two most popular choices.

I might really really want Taco Bell - but Long John Silvers and Burger King each have 3 votes already when I vote... So I choose BK. I didn't actually want to go to BK, but the public nature of the vote skewed my data.

Does 343 collect data on what every first click is in matchmaking? Because a lot of people change their vote after more have been cast.
Click to expand...

It was only mentioned that they can see non-winning votes, we don't know if they track what you hit first.
 
P

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
Epyon MX said:
Need some help, HaloGAF. I think I'm going insane dealing with my Xbox.

Does anyone connect their Xbox to a monitor?

My Xbox Slim displays black bars at the top & bottom for the monitor's native resolution. It didn't use to do this.

http://i.imgur.com/LGw4Pl.jpg

The native resolution is 1680 x 1050. I've selected that on the Xbox. But it doesn't display properly. No resolution displays properly. And the monitor works just fine and dandy with my laptop. My monitor has no stretch or position toggles. Microsoft Tech Support said that it's the monitor's fault. I tried it on 3 different monitors. All the same result. Tech support then replied that I shouldn't use a monitor even if the resolution is supported. I was advised to use a TV only since the Xbox doesn't really display anything but 720p & 1080p. I've tried different cables, too: HDMI straight, HDMI to DVI & the official Microsoft VGA cord.

Can anyone with an Xbox and monitor confirm whether this is something that's always been there and that I'm insane or if this is indeed an error?

Thank you so much. Sorry to hijack the thread; I just didn't know where else to turn.
Click to expand...
Your monitor is 16:10, Xbox is 16:9. It's supposed to display those black bars otherwise the image would be stretched.*


*I game on a 16:10(1680x1050) monitor, it displays black bars.
 
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