Support NeoGAF

[Lancehead]

Way back when, the difficulties and time involved with game development, and game magazine lead times, seemed to organically evolve a situation where game publishers had their PR and even development arms intertwined to a degree with the print magazines. In order to get your write up, article, or review into the appropriate issue, the journalist / reviewer had to be given advance copies of software. And much of the time those weren't retail products. They were pre-gold "reviewable" code, that was promised to be a fair look at the final product.

In a way, publishers still have to get reviews out before games release. But now it has to do with hype marketing, meeting quarterly estimates, meaning most sales will be within the launch window. So getting reviews out there early is important to them.

 

[Fistwell]

"It's a business, we have to make money, so of course it's okay to lie and deceit."

The labial implications are just too much.

 

[Tzeentch]

-- Games "Journalism": Self-respect and integrity now on sale for bargain-basement prices and tshotshkes.

 

[Dr Dogg]

yes that's definitely her, on her own blog using the same avatar:

Cheers. I was thinking for a second there that I posted a red herring.

Seams the problem with using Gravatar is you're easily matched up.

 

[LegendofJoe]

The journalism industry is in crisis in just about every sector, not just in video games. In my personal opinion it's the largest impediment to progress we face today. They are supposed to be the bulwark that protects everyone from the excesses of industry and government. And almost across the board they are failing.

The core of the problem is where the media sources its income. Their customers are us, the people, not the industry/goverment they report on. Right now they largely receive their money from the people/companies they supposed to investigate and report on. When they become your paymaster corruption is inevitable. That needs to change as soon as possible. A la carte television, reader subscriptions, etc. need to replace adversiting dollars as the driving source of income in the media. The world will be a much more better place if that happens because there will be less PR washed bullshit floating around obfuscating the truth. As a result people will make better choices on the things they buy, places they support, people they elect, etc.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

 

[Gomu Gomu]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

Ugh. This is the worst. You can disagree with us, you know. No need to be a dick about it with this passive aggressive BS.

 

[Raitosaito]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

The circle jerking on twitter is funny.

"Hey, we're not effected by PR so their influence totally doesn't exist."

 

[ghst]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

#twitterisforcowardswhovaluevapidsentimentoverdiscourse

 

[Dr Dogg]

The journalism industry is in crisis in just about every sector, not just in video games. In my personal opinion it's the largest impediment to progress we face today. They are supposed to be the bulwark that protects everyone from the excesses of industry and government. And almost across the board they are failing.

The core of the problem is where the media sources its income. Their customers are us, the people, not the industry/goverment they report on. Right now they largely receive their money from the people/companies they supposed to investigate and report on. When they become your paymaster corruption is inevitable. That needs to change as soon as possible. A la carte television, reader subscriptions, etc. need to replace adversiting dollars as the driving source of income in the media. The world will be a much more better place if that happens because there will be less PR washed bullshit floating around obfuscating the truth. As a result people will make better choices on the things they buy, places they support, people they elect, etc.

To be fair for someone like me who has worked in print media for 9 years the events over the last few days hardly comes as a shock and I don't even work in the Games Industry.

I've seen colleagues have nice trips away for the weekend, spa packages for them and their partners, staying in posh hotels, trips to high profile sporting events all for articles the have 'written in all good faith' when in fact they are horrendously skewed.

Advertising revenue is seen as far more important than actual integrity for the top level downwards and to most of the younger people employed where I have worked the extra incentives easily turn them.

 

[AkuMifune]

#twitterisforcowardswhovaluevapidsentimentoverdiscourse

God, so true. Instead of engaging the conversation in any meaningful way just spout off nonsense from your little protected throne room.

He's always been this way though.

 

[NervousXtian]

I hate to say it, but that Sterling post is pretty spot on.

Those that want to believe it's all bought and paid for are going to believe that.. probably even if you removed everything from the PR machine.

Even a site who doesn't accept gifts, are they not prone to buying into hype and advertising?

Does it really even matter?

 

[Megasoum]

Ugh. This is the worst. You can disagree with us, you know. No need to be a dick about it with this passive aggressive BS.

God, so true. Instead of engaging the conversation in any meaningful way just spout off nonsense from your little protected throne room.

He's always been this way though.

Yup...both him and Justin McElroy have been known to do that kind of shit multiple time in the past. They lurk here and then go on twitter to crap on the forums instead of simply engaging in the conversation and giving arguments. The worst kind of cowards.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Why didn't N'Gai just say NeoGaf.......people are so weak.

 

[SolidSnakex]

And this story will die out and not a damn thing will change. "Journalists" will say hollow words about this being a good thing to think about for the industry, but will do nothing to institute or consider real change. The silence of the mainline sites with no indication that they will be covering or doing any kind of independent research or reporting on this news is disturbing, and at the same time unsurprising.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is surprised about the lack of coverage from the big sites. An employee of IGN had this to say

As we write this article on the morning of Friday 26th, French has as yet issued no clarification on any of the points raised in response to his tweet. His only further comment was a reply to a tweet by Colin Campbell, a former UK journalist and magazine publisher now employed by IGN in California, which accused those who were criticising Eurogamer and Wainwright of "sententious, self-righteous cant".

Which is why the following isn't surprising at all...

We haven't highlighted how Intent Media has been at the forefront of debasing videogames journalism for years, along with VG24/7 and many others. We haven't even told you the story of how IGN's Colin Campbell, mentioned above and a winner of the GMA's "Games Industry Legend" award, is directly implicated in the practice of covertly selling review scores for advertising – something this writer can verify from first-hand personal knowledge.

http://wosland.podgamer.com/the-wainwright-profile/#more-14177

As some are saying, this hole goes very deep. And that's why i'm not surprised that the big sites are keeping a distance from this.

It's more than just touching this story though, it's about confronting this entire culture of incest between PR and the gaming press, other than a few seasoned cynics no-ones going to have the balls to face this issue head on.

The amazing thing is that Rab's followup article suggests that the relationship between journalists and PR is even worse than he initially thought when he wrote the Eurogamer article. I don't expect much from the major sites, but as you can see from the quotes that I posted above, it does look like we're finally going to get to see some of the smaller players blow the lid on some of the dirty practices that happen at this sites.

 

[ShowDog]

I feel like the total number of professional, adequately paid gaming writers in the world is rather low. And the ratio of professionals to hobby writers must be abysmal given that so many people are writing for free or for perks.

The economics of running/staffing a website are a much bigger part of this than has been discussed. If there were visible opportunities to become a respected, adequately compensated writer in the gaming media, I think it would naturally attract higher quality writers. But those positions are few and far between, so talented people are more likely to look elsewhere.

Having been a hobby writer myself, and eventually making it into the offices of one of the major U.S. websites as an intern and then a freelancer, personally I couldn't take it. The us-vs.-them mentality when it came to readers and competing sites was stupid. The fact that getting free stuff from companies caused writers to boast was ridiculous. I had my writing censored. To say nothing of all the inefficiency and wasted time, hiring of friends, etc.

Maybe the solution isn't just making sure paid writers are honest, it's about improving the self-respect of all those thousands of unpaid writers. Websites have access to this giant pool of enthusiasts who are willing to produce content with no regard for integrity or fair compensation, and not because they're bad people. They're just caught up in the excitement of being "part of the industry", at getting a peek behind the curtain, and being treated like they're special. If these people took themselves a little more seriously, if they were a little less willing to sacrifice their time and energy for a pat on the back, maybe the term "gaming journalist" would mean a little bit more.

This is a good post. I had an extremely brief stint as a "game writer" after graduating from University with a Journalism degree. The pay is beyond awful and it takes extreme dedication for someone with talent to stay in that field. I work in sewage and wastewater now (lol) and have zero regrets.

I don't think many of those muddying the line between PR and journalism are bad people... I just think they have no idea wtf they are doing. I've ignored gaming media outlets entirely for the last 6 years at least. Unfortunately it means I'm stuck on GAF instead ;p

 

[BigDes]

Ok Proof that she is promoting Tomb Raider on her Twitter in exchange for something form the SquareEnix PR team.

He even says "I"m sure she isn't" ... then why even post, if he is sure she is not guilty then why call her out? Obviously he does think she is guilty of this. That was a blatant contradiction in his article.

Because he wasn't talking about guilt, implied or otherwise

He was talking about perception

 

[axisofweevils]

There's a great guest post by Robert Florence on John Walker's blog

http://botherer.org/2012/10/26/guest-post-robert-florence-on-the-last-few-days/

I am furious. I am furious because yesterday the games PR and marketing men flung a few people under a bus, and today they’re probably sipping drinks at the Golden Joystick awards. I am furious that some people think we should all just “move on” from this, allowing the PR people to get back to their narrative. I am furious that some are saying that it’s “just games”. It’s not games. It’s writing. And writing matters. Writing always matters.

But I am also heartened by the response of many people out there. I’ve had messages of support from the writers I respect, and from many fellow gamers. I want to thank everybody for their kindness, because it has been a pretty awful week. Awful, partly, because I’ve discovered that the games press is controlled by PR to a greater extent than I had ever dreamed – and I’m a pessimist.

Those who have been angry about all this – don’t investigate the people, investigate the system. Please write about games. Don’t go to any parties. Don’t go on the trips. Don’t care about exclusives. Just write passionately about games. You can contribute hugely to the scene without ever once speaking to a PR person. Cut them out of the equation.

I felt like giving up writing about games yesterday. Today I just want to get back to it.

So please, let this be an end to it. And please let this be a start to something better.

 

[jett]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

The time when I respected N'Gai seems so far away right now.

 

[Osiris]

The amazing thing is that Rab's followup article suggests that the relationship between journalists and PR is even worse than he initially thought when he wrote the Eurogamer article. I don't expect much from the major sites, but as you can see from the quotes that I posted above, it does look like we're finally going to get to see some of the smaller players blow the lid on some of the dirty practices that happen at this sites.

The best thing to do is assume the default position that they're all dirty-as-fuck unless proven otherwise. A shame for those that are not, but I think the few that are not are the exception, not the rule, or worse, blisteringly ignorant about the very industry they are supposed to write about.

 

[Neuromancer]

It's stands out doesn't it.

Have any of them even uttered a word about this whole affair? Really puts it into perspective.

Gotta circle the wagons.

 

[ghst]

Why didn't N'Gai just say NeoGaf.......people are so weak.

Atten Shonhor has changed her status to: very UNhappy with SOMEONE (dnt ask)

 

[Az]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

I'd rather get called out by name, hate posts like this.

 

[Rufus]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

Games press lives and dies by access, PR meters out access. I wonder, too.

 

[NervousXtian]

Advertising revenue is seen as far more important than actual integrity for the top level downwards and to most of the younger people employed where I have worked the extra incentives easily turn them.

Yet, that's kind of the core problem. News outlets have to pay the bills, and since you can't make enough money off circulation.. it's about ads.. ads bring in money. With no money, you have no news outlet.

Advertisers no this, and are going to naturally try and have some sway. Naturally some people are going to think all outlets relent to this persuasion.

No easy solution, things have changed and there's really no way to un-change them.

Investigative journalism costs money, and can cost quite a bit of money. Someone has to fund it.. and even if it's a private person paying it all.. does not their agenda enter into the equation?

So we deal with glowing previews for games that end up sucking. It happens, and in reality a studio isn't going to let you see their game that's not finished and have it ripped to shreds and then invite someone back after that. You could argue we'd get better games if it happened.. maybe? Doubtful though, we'd probably just end up with less coverage.

We also deal with games (GTAIV and Skyrim PS3) that getting rated too high for whatever reason. Yet, across the board I don't see many aggregate scoring for games that is really far off when taken in fully.

So again, I'm not entirely sure there's this huge problem to begin with.

Sterling's right, stop calling most of these guys journalists, when they really aren't.

 

[NoirVisage]

Why didn't N'Gai just say NeoGaf.......people are so weak.

you do know there are other message boards right?

this is getting ridiculous.

 

[Tzeentch]

-- He forgot to add #marketingshill to his hashtag.

 

[Ragingbegal]

Lauren Wainwright:

"This is how the journalism industry works sadly. It’s done all the time in all different journalism sectors.

Thing is journalism is a buisiness. People like to pretend that it’s not but the most important thing is page views and sponsorship deals. Without them you make no money and can’t pay your writers or host your website.

Also when someone is being interviewed they are still speaking on behalf o their company. Journalists aren’t just going to their houses and asking them questions about that person. It’s about the game and/or company. They have every right to attribute quotes to the company because of the way interviews are set up."​

Err... wow. See, this is the shit I'm talking about.

As a "real" journalist who works in the newspaper industry, I'll tell you Wainwright is absolutely full of it. Any journalist/reporter who falls in line with this kind of nonsense is not long for the field. How she has a job is baffling to me.

"They have every right to attribute quotes to the company because of the way interviews are set up."

This just hurts my head. The proper way to quote this would be, "Director of Communications for Sony John Smith said..." or "according to a Square Enix spokesperson." Not the company itself.

 

[conman]

The journalism industry is in crisis in just about every sector, not just in video games. In my personal opinion it's the largest impediment to progress we face today. They are supposed to be the bulwark that protects everyone from the excesses of industry and government. And almost across the board they are failing.

The core of the problem is where the media sources its income. Their customers are us, the people, not the industry/goverment they report on. Right now they largely receive their money from the people/companies they supposed to investigate and report on. When they become your paymaster corruption is inevitable. That needs to change as soon as possible. A la carte television, reader subscriptions, etc. need to replace adversiting dollars as the driving source of income in the media. The world will be a much more better place if that happens because there will be less PR washed bullshit floating around obfuscating the truth. As a result people will make better choices on the things they buy, places they support, people they elect, etc.

You're right. And what really sucks is that readers/viewers/listeners have responded with cynicism rather than calls for change. So many readers/viewers just roll their eyes when they see an example of blatant partisanship or corporate bias in the media. But we all should expect more rather than just assume "that's the way it is."

Or worse, that same cynicism comes from the gaming press themselves. I hate it when I hear members of the gaming press say that they're "not journalists." They then use that as an excuse to say or do whatever they want without any sort of accountability or responsibility. Have some balls. Fine, you don't want to call yourself a "journalist." But don't then use that as an excuse to act like a childish d-wad who can rant about whatever you want and act like an awful gamer stereotype of the self-righteous basement dweller.

It's one thing for us as readers to say that these folks "aren't journalists." That's our prerogative. But it's another thing altogether for idiots in the press to say that about themselves. It's like saying "I'm a douchebag," acting like one, and then expecting to be treated with respect for "being honest" about it.

 

[JABEE]

The time when I respected N'Gai seems so far away right now.

Yep. I was one of the people who liked N'Gai on Out of the Game. His twitter is filled with responses from other "journalists" making jokes about it as if it's not a real issue. They make these jokes on twitter, but not here. They don't post stories on their website addressing this issue. They joke about it among their PR and consultant buddies.

 

[I'm an expert]

Lol at N'gai.. I'd put him right up there with Keighley as a "journalist".

 

[ChosenPredator]

Why didn't N'Gai just say NeoGaf.......people are so weak.

probably because he'd automatically lose against the collective minds of Neogaf

 

[conman]

Yep. I was one of the people who liked N'Gai on Out of the Game. His twitter is filled with responses from other "journalists" making jokes about it as if it's not a real issue. They make these jokes on twitter, but not here. They don't post stories on their website addressing this issue. They joke about it among their PR and consultant buddies.

It's because it's so pervasive and familiar. It's a "non issue" to them because it's the life they live. They see it all the time. But one dude decides to write about it for the sake of the reading/gaming public, and he suddenly becomes the bad guy. And we readers are made out to be the idiots for overreacting.

A-holes.

 

[Kinyou]

Why didn't N'Gai just say NeoGaf.......people are so weak.

Because then he might have to backtrack like the guy who said that 4chan and Neogaf are launching an "attack campaign" against Lauren.

 

[Codeblue]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

Missing the point or willingly ignorant? Can't tell. I guess defending your position isn't really a skill most people in this business have.

 

[Rufus]

Lol at N'gai.. I'd put him right up there with Keighley as a "journalist".

Well, he's been a consultant for a while now.

 

[JABEE]

Lol at N'gai.. I'd put him right up there with Keighley as a "journalist".

He's not a journalist anymore. He owns his own gaming consultant company with someone else. They do mock reviews for publishers so that companies can figure out metacritic scores for games. "This idea or concept seems like more of an 84 concept than a 91."

 

[Kraut]

Ugh. This is the worst. You can disagree with us, you know. No need to be a dick about it with this passive aggressive BS.

This has nothing to do with disagreeing. People want to believe that positive reviews are bought and paid for, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them. There's no debating with that kind of mindset.

Yup...both him and Justin McElroy have been known to do that kind of shit multiple time in the past. They lurk here and then go on twitter to crap on the forums instead of simply engaging in the conversation and giving arguments. The worst kind of cowards.

Like I said above, challenging people's childish ideologies on a message board accomplishes nothing for them. N'gai's comparison to conspiracy theorists is spot on: no reasonable person bothers "debating" 9/11 nutters because they know everything they say will fall on deaf ears. The same is true here.

 

[EternalGamer]

The time when I respected N'Gai seems so far away right now.

Same. It is a pretty lame passive aggressive dismissal.

 

[I'm an expert]

He's not a journalist anymore. He owns his own gaming consultant company with someone else. They do mock reviews for publishers so that companies can figure out metacritic scores for games. "This idea or concept seems like more of an 84 concept than a 91."

Funny, gaf would do that for companies for free.

 

[Lombax]

As a "real" journalist who works in the newspaper industry, I'll tell you Wainwright is absolutely full of it. Any journalist/reporter who falls in line with this kind of nonsense is not long for the field. How she has a job is baffling to me.

"They have every right to attribute quotes to the company because of the way interviews are set up."

This just hurts my head. The proper way to quote this would be, "Director of Communications for Sony John Smith said..." or "according to a Square Enix spokesperson." Not the company itself.

I think you nailed it in your first sentence. It is a stretch to call many of these people journalists at this point I just view them as an extension of marketing departments.

Don't get me wrong it sounds like a fantastic gig but seriously its not journalism.

I think the point where everything went wrong was when many of these folks started saying "because we are in the industry..." utter nonsense but at the same time it reveals a lot.

 

[Raitosaito]

This has nothing to do with disagreeing. People want to believe that positive reviews are bought and paid for, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them. There's no debating with that kind of mindset.



Like I said above, challenging people's childish ideologies on a message board accomplishes nothing for them. N'gai's comparison to conspiracy theorists is spot on: no reasonable person bothers "debating" 9/11 nutters because they know everything they say will fall on deaf ears. The same is true here.

I don't think everybody believes positive reviews are bought out or payed for. A lot of discussion earlier was how people can be influenced on a subliminal level, and choose to say it's impossible such a thing can happen. Shawn Elliot posted something earlier in this thread citing some evidence for that.

No one is saying they just go around handing out great scores, but that the relationship between a Journalist and a PR should not be something as comfortable as it is now.

 

[LegendofJoe]

To be fair for someone like me who has worked in print media for 9 years the events over the last few days hardly comes as a shock and I don't even work in the Games Industry.

I've seen colleagues have nice trips away for the weekend, spa packages for them and their partners, staying in posh hotels, trips to high profile sporting events all for articles the have 'written in all good faith' when in fact they are horrendously skewed.

Advertising revenue is seen as far more important than actual integrity for the top level downwards and to most of the younger people employed where I have worked the extra incentives easily turn them.

That's great you work in print media and still stand up for the core tenets of what it means to be a journalist. It should be one of the most respected professions in the world full of people who not only respect the profound importance of what they do, but who also take pride in avoiding the easy path of becoming too chummy with advertisers.

I myself have never worked in the media, but my grandmother was the editor of the local paper where I grew up for 30 years and before she died a few years ago we had conversations regarding how scared she was about the future prospects for an independent, unbiased media. The rise of partisan news stations, in particular, terrified her and she left this world in doubt for its future because of it. It's sad that so few people are aware of the terrible influence it has on people. If you feed people ignorance and ego stroking BS don't be surprised if you see it regurgitated back to you. Feed them the unbiased facts though and for the most part positive things will happen.

 

[conman]

This has nothing to do with disagreeing. People want to believe that positive reviews are bought and paid for, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them. There's no debating with that kind of mindset.

His twitter post reduces all of us reacting with concern to "conspiracy theorists." He's being reductive to make himself feel somehow above it all, and smarter than the rest of us because he knows how it really works. It's a shitty argumentative tactic designed to belittle and dismiss those of us who are (reasonably) up-in-arms over this. We're not all "conspiracy theorists."

Like I said above, challenging people's childish ideologies on a message board accomplishes nothing for them. N'gai's comparison to conspiracy theorists is spot on: no reasonable person bothers "debating" 9/11 nutters because they know everything they say will fall on deaf ears. The same is true here.

Like N'gai, you're unfairly reducing us all to "conspiracy theorists." Most reasonable folks know that game reviewers don't really get directly paid for writing positive reviews. It's a deeper, subtler, and more pervasive problem connecting games coverage and PR. That's not a "conspiracy," nor is it blatant bribery.

A lot of these public figures in the gaming industry are spitting in gamers' eyes right now. They're reacting with ugly forms of defensiveness.

 

[Rufus]

This has nothing to do with disagreeing. People want to believe that positive reviews are bought and paid for, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them. There's no debating with that kind of mindset.

Like I said above, challenging people's childish ideologies on a message board accomplishes nothing for them. N'gai's comparison to conspiracy theorists is spot on: no reasonable person bothers "debating" 9/11 nutters because they know everything they say will fall on deaf ears. The same is true here.

This is true for people who actually say that every review is bought and paid for. However, you'd be a fool to assume that all the marketing, and PR work is for naught, which is a much broader issue and what people here are actually responding to. But the easy to attack, tinfoil hat wearing straw men is much more interesting.

 

[zlatko]

Hi N'Gai (lol).

Huh I didn't know Whoopi Goldberg had a twitter account and took an interest in the game's industry. Weird.

 

[Gomu Gomu]

I don't think everybody believes positive reviews are bought out or payed for. A lot of discussion earlier was how people can be influenced on a subliminal level, and choose to say it's impossible such a thing can happen. Shawn Elliot posted something earlier in this thread citing some evidence for that.

No one is saying they just go around handing out great scores, but that the relationship between a Journalist and a PR should not be something as comfortable as it is now.

Because it needs to be posted on every page:

Read these posts from fartofwar.

Post #1
Post #2
Post #3

You are just rationalizing to internally justify that your opinion is incorruptible. It is not. Even at an unconscious level.

 

[Lime]

Apparently N'Gai Croal deleted Shagg's tweet about Wainwright's explicit comment on "It's a business, we have to make money by doing ad revenue." Talk about dismissing any form of engagement of his misunderstanding of the situation.

 

[NoirVisage]

This has nothing to do with disagreeing. People want to believe that positive reviews are bought and paid for, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them. There's no debating with that kind of mindset.



Like I said above, challenging people's childish ideologies on a message board accomplishes nothing for them. N'gai's comparison to conspiracy theorists is spot on: no reasonable person bothers "debating" 9/11 nutters because they know everything they say will fall on deaf ears. The same is true here.

a voice of reason is a beautiful thing, glad to see this.

Huh I didn't know Whoopi Goldberg had a twitter account and took an interest in the game's industry. Weird.

wow. this is something.

 

[Rodhull]

Huh I didn't know Whoopi Goldberg had a twitter account and took an interest in the game's industry. Weird.

Erm....ok.