Support NeoGAF

[Elios83]

Lol, there's someone going by the name "superdae" trying to pull a fast one on teamxbox. Yay, detailed specs

The one with 8GB GDDR5 + 2GB embedded video memory and shitty GPU (<1Teraflops)?
Seems totally bullshit to me, it would be completely unbalanced even if possible (which is not, with current GDDR5 chips it's not feasible even to have just 4GB of RAM in a console, let alone 8GB, and 2GB of embedded memory is just LOL).

 

[jaypah]

I don't believe that for a second. 2GB of eDRAM for the GPU? 8GB GDDR5 for system RAM? Even if the planets align tomorrow and it was true, why would you need such memory for a modified HD7770?

At least it's entertaining.

I wouldn't even go so far as 'entertaining'. Lunacy maybe?

 

[mrklaw]

The one with 8GB GDDR5 + 2GB embedded video memory and shitty GPU (<1Teraflops)?
Seems totally bullshit to me, it would be completely unbalanced even if possible (which is not, with current GDDR5 chips it's not feasible even to have just 4GB of RAM in a console, let alone 8GB, and 2GB of embedded memory is just LOL).

And if you could have 8Gb GDDR5 (which you can't), you wouldn't then need edram really, and certainly not 2GB.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I wouldn't even go so far as 'entertaining'. Lunacy maybe?

Those specs are lunacy yes. But it entertains me that these kids bother to write such lengthy drivel. If you're going to the trouble, make it vaguely believable!

 

[JonathanPower]

The actual hardware design of the Vita is pretty good - and by that I mean simple. The market just isn't there for that device (or a high-end portable gaming-only machine in general).

The market would be there, if only Vita had Android. An Android powered high-end gaming system would have sold much better.

 

[jaypah]

Those specs are lunacy yes. But it entertains me that these kids bother to write such lengthy drivel. If you're going to the trouble, make it vaguely believable!

oh, ok yeah. That part is entertaining. They would do better just being vague instead of trying to sound knowledgeable and not knowing what the terms mean.

 

[1st Course]

Can anyone remind what were the DDR3 memory prices were like in 2005/2006 like? I know most of you guys leans toward the idea that they will use GDDR5 but what about the cost? Sony will save money by going DDR4, no?

 

[RoboPlato]

Can anyone remind what were the DDR3 memory prices were like in 2005/2006 like? I know most of you guys leans toward the idea that they will use GDDR5 but what about the cost? Sony will save money by going DDR4, no?

An old leak said that they were aiming at 2Gb GDDR5 which is why GDDR4 has stayed in the mix while making predictions. Fast RAM like that would be necessary for a proper framebuffer. DDR4 would be cheaper but also slower. There are solutions to this like 3D stacking but it's not quite mature enough for the console timeline.

At this point I'm thinking a few Gb of DD4 with GDDR5 or eDRAM for a framebuffer.

 

[Proelite]

8GB GDDR5 and 2GB of Edram?

Might as well skip the next generation Sony because Microsoft went forward in time and got future tech.

Could be aliens though.

 

[Insane Metal]

I'm betting on 4GB of TOTAL RAM.

 

[i-Lo]

8GB GDDR5 and 2GB of Edram?

Might as well skip the next generation Sony because Microsoft went forward in time and got future tech.

Could be aliens though.

Clearly you don't see Fringe ;P

I wonder for Sony is at least 6GB DDR3/4 is a possibility with some eDRAM or whether we'll see 4GB DDR3/4 and 2GB GDDR5....

 

[RoboPlato]

I'm betting on 4GB of TOTAL RAM.

I'm guessing 4Gb total if they go GDDR5. Probably more than that if it's a combination of stuff.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Seems like a waste to use GDDR5 RAM for OS purposes.

 

[Globox_82]

Is SuperDae that Russian xbox fanboy blog lunatic?

 

[RoboPlato]

Seems like a waste to use GDDR5 RAM for OS purposes.

It would need very little to run them so more could be used for games. Still, that's only in a unified GDDR5 pool.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Did I miss something? Sony rumoured to have shit for RAM?

 

[Proelite]

I'm betting on 4GB of TOTAL RAM.

Orbis maybe.
Durango naw.

 

[Globox_82]

Orbis maybe.
Durango naw.

naw for both naw

 

[Tears For Fears]

2gb of edram, must have missed the pigs flying. Lunacy.

 

[Globox_82]

Someone is pointing out that SuperDae on teamxbox site is not the "real" one, since his English sucks! So yeah BS - confirmed. (not that we needed it)

 

[Kaako]

I really hope we at least get some better, more official info during CES in January. But I doubt it. :/
Love the spec/system architecture talk when it comes to next gen consoles.

 

[i-Lo]

Orbis maybe.
Durango naw.

And then 2GB reserved for OS... may be: Troll Face
Given how PS3's OS started out and because Sony aren't a software company it won't surprise me. I had hoped that they may seek Google's help (android integration) but the hearsay in this thread still points to Linux.

 

[AzBat]

2GB edram could 2 gigaBIT, not gigaBYTE, in other words: 265MB(megabyte) edram, much closer to being realistic than 2 gigabyte, but still way over the top if you ask me.

 

[Elios83]

I'm guessing 4Gb total if they go GDDR5. Probably more than that if it's a combination of stuff.

It really depends on whether they're using a single APU or a CPU/APU + discrete GPU.
If there is just a big APU and a single bus they might go for 4GB of total GDDR5 memory, it would be kinda expensive as it would require to have 16 memory chips on the motherboard (but still nothing like the 60GB PS3 motherboard which had the whole PS2 hardware in a corner ).
In that case they might have to take the plunge at launch considering that less than 4GB of total memory is out of question, then as soon as 4Gbit chips are available they can use just 8 chips, redesign the system and cut their costs as usually.
If they have a discrete GPU then it's much easier.
They can use a split memory architecture just like the PS3, 4GB of DDR3 memory for CPU and 2GB of GDDR5 for the GPU.
Imo this would be a better soution but it depends on the architecture they have chosen, if they're using embedded memory, how much,etc

 

[K.Jack]

No because even the 7850 (~1.7TFLops) desktop version is better than the 8800M (~0.99TFlops) and if there is a 8900M I doubt it will be double the GFlops of the 8800M to at least reach the Pitcairn medium level card...

1. You're ignoring that the 7970M is a full spec (downclocked) desktop 7870.

2. There is an 8970M. It will be faster than the 7970M. It will be double the 8800M, just like 7900M was double 7800M (which has the same core count and specs as 8800M).

 

[Ashes]

@K.Jack on that note, I found a comparison:

A first look at AMD Radeon HD 8790M

edit: note. 8790m's code name is Mars. Planetery names... hmm...

 

[jeff_rigby]

It really depends on whether they're using a single APU or a CPU/APU + discrete GPU.
If there is just a big APU and a single bus they might go for 4GB of total GDDR5 memory, it would be kinda expensive as it would require to have 16 memory chips on the motherboard (but still nothing like the 60GB PS3 motherboard which had the whole PS2 hardware in a corner ).
In that case they might have to take the plunge at launch considering that less than 4GB of total memory is out of question, then as soon as 4Gbit chips are available they can use just 8 chips, redesign the system and cut their costs as usually.
If they have a discrete GPU then it's much easier.
They can use a split memory architecture just like the PS3, 4GB of DDR3 memory for CPU and 2GB of GDDR5 for the GPU.
Imo this would be a better soution but it depends on the architecture they have chosen, if they're using embedded memory, how much,etc

danhese007 just emailed me this Sony patent.

"An SCE patent filed in 2009 but now been updated in july that talks about having a low power and high power GPU in a system. What you've been talking about for the longest time."

DYNAMIC CONTEXT SWITCHING BETWEEN ARCHITECTURALLY DISTINCT GRAPHICS PROCESSORS Published December 20th 2012. This is describing a APU + GPU and the context switching between low power and high power GPUs.

So we now have three points, the 8000M AMD ADVERTISING DECK that was embargoed till Dec 17 2012, the tweet that Beta platforms are shipping and this patent. All in the same time period.

PS4 is APU + GPU using as a base the 8000M MOBILE GPU GPU in APU is deliberately a lower power GPU.

The apparatus of claim 2 wherein the first GPU is a high power GPU and the second GPU is a low power GPU having lower power consumption than the high power GPU and a maximum processing capacity that is less than a maximum processing capacity of the high power GPU.

the Radeon HD 8000M is based entirely on the new Graphics CoreNext (GCN) micro-architecture, supports DirectX 11.1, and AMD's equivalent of NVIDIA Optimus, the Enduro Technology, which dynamically switches between discrete and integrated GPUs, which coupled with AMD ZeroCore power technology, completely turn off discrete GPUs at low graphics processing loads.

 

[Kaako]

Regarding APU + GPU architecture that is looking quite likely for the PS4, would it be unrealistic to expect 2GB of DDR5 for second(higher power) GPU alone or will they have shared DDR5 pool?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Regarding APU + GPU architecture that is looking quite likely for the PS4, would it be unrealistic to expect 2GB of GDDR5 for second(higher power) GPU alone or will they have shared GDDR5 pool?

Considering the effort and extra expense to have a APU + GPU and switching between GPUs to save energy, using GDDR5 memory which is very fast but uses much more energy is not likely.

 

[thuway]

Considering the effort and extra expense to have a APU + GPU and switching between GPUs to save energy, using GDDR5 memory which is very fast but uses much more energy is not likely.

You are saying Sony is going for an A10 + 8970m?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Considering the effort and extra expense to have a APU + GPU and switching between GPUs to save energy, using GDDR5 memory which is very fast but uses much more energy is not likely.

GDDR5 would be reserved for high power, graphically intensive tasks; other tasks will use lower power memory, it's not all going to be GDDR5 if they go that route

 

[Ashes]

You are saying Sony is going for an A10 + 8970m?

I think jeff is going for a A10 with jaguar cores.

 

[jeff_rigby]

GDDR5 would be reserved for high power, graphically intensive tasks; other tasks will use lower power memory, it's not all going to be GDDR5 if they go that route

That's possible but I suspect one memory pool with APU and second GPU on the same transposer/MCM. It's the cheaper and more robust design and fully HSA. More expensive to design as it will be semi custom but long term more powerful and cheaper.

Edit: In the patent it describes separate GDDR memory for each of the GPUs and Virtual memory for each from a common memory pool.

Each of the GPU 103, 104 may have a corresponding associated video RAM (VRAM) 107A, 107B. Each VRAM 107A, 107B allows the CPU 101 to process an image at the same time a GPU 103, 104 reads it out to a display controller 108 coupled to the display 110. By way of example, the VRAM 107A, 107B may be implemented in the form of dual ported RAM that allows multiple reads or writes to occur at the same time, or nearly the same time. Each VRAM 107A, 107B may contain both input (e.g., textures) and output (e.g., buffered frames). Each VRAM 107 may be implemented as a separate local hardware components of each GPU. Alternatively, each VRAM 107 may be virtualized as part of the main memory 102.

I think jeff is going for a A10 with jaguar cores.

ha ha, No a Pennar/Samara base @ 20nm with second GPU 20nm and in the larger planet class. That's what I hope anyway. Kabini core @ 28nm or Samara @ 20nm. If Samara then both TSMC and GloFlo can make the chipsets and supply should be less of a concern. In the following roadmap for 2013; Kaveri has been canceled and Richland is the only Desktop APU in other Roadmaps and it is a 2010 32nm SOI with updates to GPU and CPU to 2011 designs. Considering the effort to dynamically switch to the low power GPU, the A10 and Richland are not options. Best would be Samara, second best Kabini.

 

[thuway]

That's possible but I suspect one memory pool with APU and second GPU on the same transposer/MCM. It's the cheaper and more robust design and fully HSA. More expensive to design as it will be semi custom but long term more powerful and cheaper.

What are we considering as the second GPU?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

That's possible but I suspect one memory pool with APU and second GPU on the same transposer/MCM. It's the cheaper and more robust design and fully HSA. More expensive to design as it will be semi custom but long term more powerful and cheaper.

I don't see how it would be more powerful. GDDR5 is the best stuff out right now for VRAM and 2GB gives plenty of speed for 1080p. I suspect a split RAM pool would be for the best.

 

[iamvin22]

What are we considering as the second GPU?

well based on the patent and the link jeff linked im guessing something significant?!? rigby can you help me on this?

...great find.

 

[jeff_rigby]

well based on the patent and the link jeff linked im guessing something significant?!? rigby can you help me on this?

...great find.

Probably one of the two missing 8000M GPUs coming Q2 2013 and likely 20nm because of size/power. ALL 20nm in 2013 will be LPM silicon, this is why only Mobile is showing up on the GloFlo/AMD roadmap, Richland is 32nm and SOI.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

So, we're looking at a 600 gflop gpgpu integrated in the APU, plus a 2+ tflop discrete gpu? Sounds pretty beastly

Definitely happy to see that it wasn't a gimped single chip solution

 

[jeff_rigby]

So, we're looking at a 600 gflop gpgpu integrated in the APU, plus a 2+ tflop discrete gpu? Sounds pretty beastly

Definitely happy to see that it wasn't a gimped single chip solution

Yup, APU has be very power efficient as with RVU, IPTV streaming and XTV the PS4 will likely be on all the time the TV is on at a minimum. It's what I have been going on about for months. It's a key design constraint and eliminates the A10 or Richland (Kaveri is not coming in 2013) as the APU.

Edit: The patent information just made it to BY3D. It will be interesting to see if they can put it together....not enough speculation/research and missing patsu posting like he used to. Wow, arijoytunir got it very fast.

 

[Reckless Onion]

this thread gives me a headach. but i still enjoy reading the rumours.

 

[B.O.O.M]

I'm not tech savvy but I guess with that kind of a set up we will see a big jump over current gen?

 

[Proelite]

Starsha Apu and Thebes.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Starsha Apu and Thebes.

I take it you are referring to a sweetvar26 post that was deleted:

PS4:

New Starsha GNB 28nm TSMC
Milos
Southern Islands

DX11
SM 5.0
Open CL 1.0
Quad Pixel pipes 4
SIMDs 5
Texture Units 5TCP/2TCC
Render back ends 2
Scalar ALUs 320""

Milos is probably a 20nm Volcanic Islands desktop GPU so you have Southern Islands and Volcanic islands at the same time.

GNB is new with the Samara/Pennar (Jaguar) APU and @ 20nm the Forge database to produce it was ported from TSMC to GloFlo.

GNB core (Graphics North Bridge) is based on the AMD fusion core technology, The GNB is a fusion of Graphic processor, power optimizer, audio processor, south bridge and north bridge which share a common interface with system memory.

 

[iamvin22]

I take it you are referring to a sweetvar26 post that was deleted:

PS4:



Milos is probably a 20nm Volcanic Islands desktop GPU so you have Southern Islands and Volcanic islands at the same time.

GNB is new with the Samara/Pennar (Jaguar) APU and @ 20nm the Forge database to produce it was ported from TSMC to GloFlo.

what do you think the discrete/ customized gpu will be?

 

[Glorified G]

what do you think the discrete/ customized gpu will be?

Probably what was in the leaked spec sheet. 1.8tflop pitcairn-esque gpu.

 

[RoboPlato]

Good patent find, Jeff. What kind of performance are we looking at in the APU card? I assume the discrete card will be around 2Tflops.

 

[Proelite]

I really think they setup for beta kits will be/ is
A10 with 384 SPUs 512 gflops
The 768 spu 7850 that was leaked earlier. 1.3 teraflops

Equaling the rumor of 4 core cpu and 1152 spu from vgleaks, also 1.8 teraflops.

Final kit will be the same spu count but 25-30% more efficient.

Compare that to 1.2-1.5 teraflops for Durango.

 

[Melchiah]

Capcom feels it's relevant to ask how interested you are in owning the PS4 and Xbox 720 in the next 12 months: http://www.capcom-unity.com/sven/blog/2012/12/20/we-need-your-input

Please become true!

 

[DieH@rd]

Someone tried to impersonate SuperDaE on teamxbox forums and wrote a about X720 bullshit specs
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=681409&page=2
Real SuperDaE quickly confirmed that this crap [2GB of EDRAM :lol:, IBM 6core cpu with 4way SMT = 32cores :rofl] was posted from fake account
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1687758&postcount=16672



edit - And now more exciting news, SCEA posted a patent application for "DYNAMIC CONTEXT SWITCHING BETWEEN ARCHITECTURALLY DISTINCT GRAPHICS PROCESSORS":

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...68".PGNR.&OS=DN/20120320068&RS=DN/20120320068
"Graphics processing in a computer graphics apparatus having architecturally dissimilar first and second graphics processing units (GPU) is disclosed. Graphics input is produced in a format having an architecture-neutral display list. One or more instructions in the architecture neutral display list are translated into GPU instructions in an architecture specific format for an active GPU of the first and second GPU."


It seems that they are aiming for APU+GPU combination in PS4. As for architecturaly disctinct graphic processors, they will most likely use 7xxx for APU and 8xxx for discrete GPU... but off course, who knows. Maybe they are just doing preemptive patenting for their patent war chest.

 

[B.O.O.M]

Someone tried to impersonate SuperDaE on teamxbox forums and wrote a about X720 bullshit specs
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=681409&page=2

Real SuperDaE quickly confirmed that this crap [2GB of EDRAM :lol:, IBM 6core cpu with 4way SMT = 32cores :rofl] was posted from fake account
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1687758&postcount=16672

more like superFake amiright?