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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer

S

systemfehler

Member
156d.jpg


From the 8000 mobile presentation - suffice to say that I don't like that picture at all :-(
 
A

Ashes

Banned
Hammer24 said:
Why? The first 360 dev kits were Macs, how exactly did that hurt MS?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I'm not following your line of reasoning. We are talking about different things.

Before the launch of the Xbox 360, several Alpha development kits were spotted using Apple's Power Mac G5 hardware. This was because the system's PowerPC 970 processor running the same PowerPC architecture that the Xbox 360 would eventually run under IBM's Xenon processor. The cores of the Xenon processor were developed using a slightly modified version of the PlayStation 3's Cell Processor PPE architecture. According to David Shippy and Mickie Phipps, the IBM employees were "hiding" their work from Sony and Toshiba, IBM's partners in developing the Cell Processor.[24
Click to expand...

Edit: Put simply, one would expect hardware architecture to be similar to final hardware. E.g. Amd hardware. And not their [Amd's] competitors.
 
S

StevieP

Banned
The PowerPC in the 360 is NOT the 970 (it's the PPE from the Cell x3). However, the 970 is definitely compatible with the Power ISA, as the PPE is.

Just like the Intel Xeons in the kits are compatible with Jaguars or whatever x86 CPU AMD is customizing for MS.
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
Ashes1396 said:
Edit: Put simply, one would expect hardware architecture to be similar to final hardware. E.g. Amd hardware. And not their [Amd's] competitors.
Click to expand...

Again: why? Alpha kits should give you an idea what to expect from final hw, not be exactly the same. If only a competitors parts can represent this early, why not use them?
 
A

Ashes

Banned
StevieP said:
The PowerPC in the 360 is NOT the 970 (it's the PPE from the Cell x3). However, the 970 is definitely compatible with the Power ISA, as the PPE is.

Just like the Intel Xeons in the kits are compatible with Jaguars or whatever x86 CPU AMD is customizing for MS.
Click to expand...

Oh never mind.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
systemfehler said:
156d.jpg


From the 8000 mobile presentation - suffice to say that I don't like that picture at all :-(
Click to expand...
The big news is in the fine print at the bottom<grin>

"Launch deck 8000M December 2012 NDA Embargo date December 17, 2012 3PM" and in Game Consoles. Leaves out the WiiU so unless there are others then it's in Xbox3 and PS4.

Also remember the rumors of a big announcement soon.
 
P

Pranay

Member
Regarding the "indies" talk, i think they will play a important part next gen and dont be surprised if their are many 3rd party indie exclusives as well.

Even though the traditional console model didnt suit the indies this gen but their efforts from Sony and MS on them, next gen i definately see a change in the model as both crytek and ubi stated
 
S

systemfehler

Member
jeff_rigby said:
The big news is in the fine print at the bottom<grin>

"Launch deck 8000M December 2012 NDA Embargo date December 17, 2012 3PM" and in Game Consoles. Leaves out the WiiU so unless there are others then it's in Xbox3 and PS4.

Also remember the rumors of a big announcement soon.
Click to expand...

So either the PS4 or 720 get a "lousy" 1TF GPU if not some mysterious third party (Apple handheld, Steambox, etc.) takes the blame. Now I even wish we would get a decent Pitcairn GPU instead of a "smartphone solution".
 
M

Mr. MondayNight

Member
jeff_rigby said:
The big news is in the fine print at the bottom<grin>

"Launch deck 8000M December 2012 NDA Embargo date December 17, 2012 3PM" and in Game Consoles. Leaves out the WiiU so unless there are others then it's in Xbox3 and PS4.

Also remember the rumors of a big announcement soon.
Click to expand...
Could they be talking about the Steam Box?
 
S

StevieP

Banned
systemfehler said:
So either the PS4 or 720 get a "lousy" 1TF GPU if not some mysterious third party (Apple handheld, Steambox, etc.) takes the blame. Now I even wish we would get a decent Pitcairn GPU instead of a "smartphone solution".
Click to expand...

They're just saying "hey, we're in all the game consoles. Hurrah" here
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
systemfehler said:
So either the PS4 or 720 get a "lousy" 1TF GPU if not some mysterious third party (Apple handheld, Steambox, etc.) takes the blame. Now I even wish we would get a decent Pitcairn GPU instead of a "smartphone solution".
Click to expand...

The slide absolutely does not link the 8000 (mobile or otherwise) to consoles. The slide is talking about Radeon strengths in general.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
StevieP said:
Yeah, I guess I should've clarified with binary-compatible in this case. You can run x86 code on an x86 processor of any make :)
Click to expand...

Why intel Xeon and Nvidia? I think you can use Amd alternatives, if that is what is going to be in final hardware.
 
D

deadlast

Member
jeff_rigby said:
The big news is in the fine print at the bottom<grin>

"Launch deck 8000M December 2012 NDA Embargo date December 17, 2012 3PM" and in Game Consoles. Leaves out the WiiU so unless there are others then it's in Xbox3 and PS4.

Also remember the rumors of a big announcement soon.
Click to expand...
Jeff, I'm with on the big 2 going with mobile architecture. It makes the most sense for power/heat standpoint. Also ms has a thermal engineering position open in the Xbox division.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
gofreak said:
The slide absolutely does not link the 8000 (mobile or otherwise) to consoles. The slide is talking about Radeon strengths in general.
Click to expand...
"Launch deck 8000M December 2012 NDA Embargo date December 17, 2012 3PM" and we have a tweet that the Xbox3 Beta is shipping on the same day. AMD is also under NDA and has a roadmap of dates that they can release information on Next generation.
 
E

ekim

Member
http://pastebin.com/LJsmkiZ6

The terms include the following:

Physical Access

You must unpack, use, and store the Durango Alpha kit in a secure location that can be accessed only by those authorized to do so. A secure location must:

Have locked entry doors, with only persons authorized to access the Durango Alpha kit able to gain entry.

Always be screened from view by the public as well as against those unauthorized to access the hardware.

User Access

You must restrict access to the Durango Alpha kit to persons with a business need, and with confidentiality obligations to the licensee. Before granting access to the Durango Alpha kit, you must deliver a confidentiality briefing covering these security requirements, with a copy of this exhibit to each person requesting access. The briefing is designed to remind the individual of his or her confidentiality obligations and the extreme confidentiality of the Durango Alpha kit.

Confidentiality

You must not discuss the Durango Alpha kit with members of your organization, except as necessary to conduct business. You must not discuss the Durango Alpha kit with members of your household—including family members and friends. You must not disclose any information concerning the Durango Alpha kit on public Internet Web sites, such as blogs, newsgroups, or forums. All media inquiries concerning the Durango Alpha kit should be directed to Microsoft.

Audit

Microsoft may elect, at any time, to conduct an audit of these security requirements. Violations of these security requirements may constitute a material breach of the Durango Alpha kit license.
Click to expand...

May or may not be legit.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
deadlast said:
Jeff, I'm with on the big 2 going with mobile architecture. It makes the most sense for power/heat standpoint. Also ms has a thermal engineering position open in the Xbox division.
Click to expand...
I think they were forced to go with Mobile as 28nm Performance silicon has too many issues. There are three wafer "formulas" and LPM low power mobile is what both TSMC and GloFlo are going to with 20nm and TSMC uses it with Jaguar APUs @28nm. I'm guessing they have higher yields with mobile. Mobile GPU designs on LPM can be clocked up to the same speed as Jaguar or 1.6Ghz with turbo mode 2.4 Ghz but as speed increases it gets less efficient and hot. Clock speeds on these mobile GPUs can be increased in a console up to the heat dissipation limit.

Using LPM silicon could also be a reason why we won't have BC as SPUs in Cell and PPU in Xbox 360 run at 3.2Ghz which is way above the limits of SLP silicon.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=504928&highlight=amd+mobile+gpu
 
S

systemfehler

Member
jeff_rigby said:
I think they were forced to go with Mobile as 28nm Performance silicon has too many issues. There are three wafer "formulas" and SLP super low power is what both TSMC and GloFlo are going to with 20nm and TSMC uses it with Jaguar APUs @28nm. I'm guessing they have higher yields with mobile. Mobile GPU designs on SLP can be clocked up to the same speed as Jaguar or 1.6Ghz with turbo mode 2.4 Ghz but as speed increases it gets less efficient and hot. Clock speeds on these mobile GPUs can be increased in a console up to the heat dissipation limit.

Using SLP silicon could also be a reason why we won't have BC as SPUs in Cell and PPU in Xbox 360 run at 3.2Ghz which is way above the limits of SLP silicon.
Click to expand...

But even a 7770 with a 80W TDP has ~1.2TFlops compared to ~1TFlops for the high-end 8000 mobile series. MS might squeeze out a little bit more but what is the goal here? A 100W system with 1.5TFlops? Sony going with off the shelf components might not even reach that in this case...
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
jeff_rigby said:
"Launch deck 8000M December 2012 NDA Embargo date December 17, 2012 3PM" and we have a tweet that the Xbox3 Beta is shipping on the same day. AMD is also under NDA and has a roadmap of dates that they can release information on Next generation.
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell that date is simply when the embargo for the 8000M news expired and has zero to do with any consoles.

The slide is IMO very clearly just a summary of why Radeon is great as opposed to any one chip.

Who knows whether a 8000 or 8000M derived chip will be in consoles or not, but I don't think that slide adds anything to speculation about that.
 
G

Globox_82

Banned
systemfehler said:
But even a 7770 with a 80W TDP has ~1.2TFlops compared to ~1TFlops for the high-end 8000 mobile series. MS might squeeze out a little bit more but what is the goal here? A 100W system with 1.5TFlops? Sony going with off the shelf components might not even reach that in this case...
Click to expand...

lol we are not getting 1.5tflops machines.
Didn't EPIC guy say that you need 2.5tflops to run UE4? Chill
 
G

Globox_82

Banned
Reiko said:
There will always be 60fps games every gen. That hasn't changed at all.
Click to expand...

Dude what? read comment, and to what I am replying.
He said

shinra-bansho said:
If you're expecting most games to run at 1080p next gen, you should probably just start being disappointed now.
Click to expand...


I replied

Globox_82 said:
i am not. same goes for 60fps nonsense
Click to expand...

since I have to draw things to some, pay attention to "MOST GAMES". my comment on what some believe that every next gen game is going to be 1080 60fps. Happy?
 
R

Reiko

Banned
Globox_82 said:
Dude what? read comment, and to what I am replying.
He said




I replied



since I have to draw things to some, pay attention to "MOST GAMES". my comment on what some believe that every next gen game is going to be 1080 60fps. Happy?
Click to expand...

But that goes without saying. Expecting every game to be 1080p & 60fps is ludicrous.

Not every developer has the balls of Polyphony Digital.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
jeff_rigby said:
The big news is in the fine print at the bottom<grin>

"Launch deck 8000M December 2012 NDA Embargo date December 17, 2012 3PM" and in Game Consoles. Leaves out the WiiU so unless there are others then it's in Xbox3 and PS4.

Also remember the rumors of a big announcement soon.
Click to expand...

maybe its just a 'hey look we're great, we have fingers in all pies' generic business slide, and the 'consoles' refers to Xbox 360. Its about AMD generally for context, not specifically to the 8000M range?

regardless, isn't a top end mobile GPU equivalent to a high-mid range desktop GPU? Isn't a 680M basically a GTX670? So a top end 8000M could be equivalent to an 8850/8870? Just lower clocked desktop part.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
I'd love to see a 8core apu in a console - just cause. :p
Amd chips single thread performance is kinda lackluster in comparison to the competition. Even if there are some who say anything above mid range priced intel i5 is over kill ( in terms of value/fps in games) anyway.

Not that either desktop or mobile will see a 8core apu.* :p



*next year.
 
G

Globox_82

Banned
Reiko said:
But that goes without saying. Expecting every game to be 1080p & 60fps is ludicrous.

Not every developer has the balls of Polyphony Digital.
Click to expand...

I guess you missed some threads in last few months where they have been talking about it. You would be surprised how many expected it to happen - but when it is obvious it won't here comes PC master race...
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
ekim said:
http://www.techpowerup.com/177432/A...es-Detailed-Performance-Figures-Released.html

See the slides there. I also made a thread about this news. it's on page 2. :p
Click to expand...

from that link

In its press-deck, AMD compared the HD 8870M to NVIDIA's current-generation GeForce GTX 650M GDDR5, HD 8770M to HD 7670M (which is based on the dated VLIW5 architecture), and HD 8690M to the HD 7590M.
Click to expand...

eww, don't want. Looks like they are showcasing the first chips to market which are likely to be mass market for mid range laptops, and we'll hear more about top end mobile and desktop in 2013.
 
S

systemfehler

Member
mrklaw said:
maybe its just a 'hey look we're great, we have fingers in all pies' generic business slide, and the 'consoles' refers to Xbox 360. Its about AMD generally for context, not specifically to the 8000M range?

regardless, isn't a top end mobile GPU equivalent to a high-mid range desktop GPU? Isn't a 680M basically a GTX670? So a top end 8000M could be equivalent to an 8850/8870? Just lower clocked desktop part.
Click to expand...

No because even the 7850 (~1.7TFLops) desktop version is better than the 8800M (~0.99TFlops) and if there is a 8900M I doubt it will be double the GFlops of the 8800M to at least reach the Pitcairn medium level card...
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
systemfehler said:
No because even the 7850 (~1.7TFLops) desktop version is better than the 8800M (~0.99TFlops) and if there is a 8900M I doubt it will be double the GFlops of the 8800M to at least reach the Pitcairn medium level card...
Click to expand...

yeah, noticed that after from ekim's linked page.

I think this slide and 8000M info is a red herring. Power is too low unless they are looking at it for a companion GPU on the APU side (and with a discrete GPU).
 
Vol5

Vol5

Member
nasos_333 said:
I happen to own a A10 PC and is really mediocre stuff

The GPU barely surpasses xbox 360 one
Click to expand...

Which on die GPU? If it's the 6670 that's a pretty big jump from the 360. Need to remember, and this is absolutely key, is that PC games have to be programmed with the lowest common denominator. Consoles on the flip side can be programmed to it's strengths as all models contain the same chipset. You can't really compare the two.
 
D

DieH@rd

Banned
Maybe 8000M series has the best performance/power that AMD can create, even better than regular desktop 8000 cards.

Both MS and Sony will surely want to take the most optimized and efficient architecture, and scale it up to their demands [lets say up to 140W of GPU power in the bestest case scenario :) ].
 
D

deadlast

Member
jeff_rigby said:
I think they were forced to go with Mobile as 28nm Performance silicon has too many issues. There are three wafer "formulas" and SLP super low power is what both TSMC and GloFlo are going to with 20nm and TSMC uses it with Jaguar APUs @28nm. I'm guessing they have higher yields with mobile. Mobile GPU designs on SLP can be clocked up to the same speed as Jaguar or 1.6Ghz with turbo mode 2.4 Ghz but as speed increases it gets less efficient and hot. Clock speeds on these mobile GPUs can be increased in a console up to the heat dissipation limit.

Using SLP silicon could also be a reason why we won't have BC as SPUs in Cell and PPU in Xbox 360 run at 3.2Ghz which is way above the limits of SLP silicon.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=504928&highlight=amd+mobile+gpu
Click to expand...
Wow Jeff, I put a lot less thought into my conclusion. I looked at my M11x and thought about how much more powerful laptops were compared to my 360 and how much smaller they were. Mobile architecture just makes sense.
 
K

KageMaru

Member
Karak said:
I don't know. He rarely says much but when he does he has yet to NOT tell me the truth. So I guess time will tell:) I personally will be on the lookout for some kind of hardware partner announcement in the next couple months that is unexpected as well as a unique difference between these 2 systems. If the misconception somehow indicates the makeup of the system itself with Seymour being the dropped hint I can only expect some kind of multi-chip arrangement not done within the other system. I am not saying 1 will be ulta powerful. It could be security + something to do all the extra's we keep hearing about. Though that doesn't really hit as a misconception.
Click to expand...

Unless you mean an announcement from your cousin, I'm not sure I would wait for a public announcement until the system is officially revealed. =p

Ashes1396 said:
Oh I understand that. But using competitor hardware seems like a bad a idea.
Click to expand...

With earlier kits, getting something out there for developers to get results is more important than the hardware itself.

Hammer24 said:
Why? The first 360 dev kits were Macs, how exactly did that hurt MS?
Click to expand...

The CPU in earlier 360 kits was faster than the Xenon in single threaded performance, I'm sure that hurt some people. =p

gofreak said:
As far as I can tell that date is simply when the embargo for the 8000M news expired and has zero to do with any consoles.

The slide is IMO very clearly just a summary of why Radeon is great as opposed to any one chip.

Who knows whether a 8000 or 8000M derived chip will be in consoles or not, but I don't think that slide adds anything to speculation about that.
Click to expand...

You guys should listen to this man.

Also it makes no sense to use mobile parts in a console.
 
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