I'm now expecting that to be around may,a few weeks after TLOU comes out.
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Backwards compatibility is a complete non issue for either system. Nobody cares.
Question about the Cell. Disregarding the pain in the ass it is to develop for if Sony continued to utilize it could it be more power than a more typical CPU?
I can refuse to buy anything. That's the potential customer relationship. If a product doesn't have what I want/require, I don't have to buy it. I will not repurchase games I already own, and I want all my PS games accessible from my PlayStation. These aren't some crazy demands, this is how it should be.
BruceLeeRoy: Then I might as well buy some other system, if none of them will play the games I already possess. What does the PS4 offer me that the others don't if not the PlayStation brand?
Do you have Xbox and Xbox 360 as well?
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
You are representing the .0001% of gamers that would actually care about this. People bitched and moaned on here when PS3 dropped its BC but it made absolutely no difference to sales. Its ridiculous for Sony to go to the lengths they did with the PS3 to offer a feature the vast majority of their customers wont use. Plus they realized "Why should we offer BC when we can sell HD versions of these games and make some money off them"
Its not happening.
No. I currently have 1 console, a backwards compatible PS3, and I play my games (PS1/PSN/PS2/PS3) on it.
So are you going to buy Xbox and Xbox 360 games if you went out to buy XB3 or perhaps Wii or GC games if you were to buy WiiU? If not then no matter the console you end up in the same place. However, I am pretty sure that software emulation that allows for PS3 to be backward compatible with PS1 games, may see it implemented in PS4 as well. And if we're lucky perhaps there may be emulation to allow PS4 owners to play PS2 games. From what I've read given the difference x86 instruction set architecture and Cell are so intricate it may not be possible for PS4 to play PS3 games. I am still wondering if Gaikai may alleviate some of that problem. Also, PS4 going the route of x86 signals that most likely all playstations after PS4 (should Sony make it that far) would remain backward compatible due to the same lineage.
Regarding gaikai i think yoshida hinted that they'll start offering 'legacy' content on it first.
I think his argument is that he has bought into that PS ecosystem with PS1, PS2, PS3 and PSN games and he'd like to keep playing these games on the new console. It's a reasonable enough argument. It's important for people who have been PS owners in all 3 generations. Not so much for new first time buyers.
I was going to buy a WiiU, and play some of the Wii games I didn't get a chance to play, but I also don't buy region locked consoles since I like playing Japanese and American released games. Seeing how it looks like BC is not being included, it seems unlikely that I am going to buy any consoles this generation, and if I do, it won't be till the end of the generation so that I can pick up some things on the cheap. But I'm working with limited info, so I will have to see what they offer when they announce their new devices(MS/Sony). I bought my 60GB PS3 with BC on launch, and replaced my PS2, which replaced my PS1, so I held up my end of the deal with Sony. I will reconsider if I find out the PS4 has BC, or hold off to see what the 5(if it ever comes to fruition) adds it back.
BruceLeeRoy: I agree, it doesn't seems like it's happening. Well hopefully they can make up the loss of my business selling HD ports to others.
I wasn't doubting the importance of his legitimate argument but the pointing out the futility of changing systems predicated on his choice to build an ecosystem with other brands.
Karak
Member
Ya for sure a valid point. As a feature it can sway someone towards not getting a system, or perhaps getting a system later than they planned. Especially a launch system in an ecosystem that already exists like the PS systems. Depending on your own thoughts it mattered more from PS2 to PS3 than from PS3 to PS4. But again that depends. For me it mattered far more going from PS2 to PS3 for the obvious reasons of total system library numbers and desire to play that many games.
I keep an open mind for every new system though. Never know what it can offer. I also have no problem having old ones plugged in.
SEGA SATURN YYYAAAA
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
We have gone over this time and again, it has been explained by Arne, and numerous other people... there is nothing to payback. Those losses were absorbed (because MS was profitable during those various fiscal years) and written off in same fiscal years they occurred, there isn't a rolling tab that investors expect to be paid back to the penny.
If Surface and Win 8 mobile are any indication, MS is still very willing to invest in things will probably won't have any kind of immediate return. With Windows being eroded and the PC landscape blurring, it's more than likely that "owning the living-room" is more important than ever.
I absolutely agree MS is more budget-minded with Xbox, and that they aren't willing to lose as much... but they are in a better position than Sony to lose more for longer IF it suits their needs.
Some of you make it sound as if investors are screaming for the gaming division to be shutdown, and that's just not the case.
Karak
Member
It is indeed exactly the opposite. As another person said it is considered their largest avenue for growth and that corresponds to where we are today with some of the living room technologies. MS is not risk adverse, especially seeing the current trends for gaming-living room space- and perhaps even true mobile style devices.
With the sheer number of 360 games I have I will be super happy with them if they do BC.
Interesting update. I emailed my cousin last night and asked him what the misconception is concerning the next gen MS system last night and his response this morning was, "If everything follows the current design trends imagine bigger and better. See you in a couple weeks Seymour."
...my name is not Seymour. However Seymour Cray was the inventor of the first supercomputer?!? He was also a character from Little Shop of Horrors hahahahahaha.
EDIT: someone found the post for me where someone else calls it a supercomputer.
I can't find the post but I thought someone somewhere said something about AMD thinking that the Xbox was a supercomputer or something like that? Anyway I have no idea but that seems odd as fuck. Then again the dude is odd as fuck. When I see him I am going to punch him right in the damn mouth.
Evolution_1ne
Banned
I would love for someone to explain how it wouldn't
Melchiah
Member
I'm probably interpreting those wrong, but combined they make it sound like the PS4 project was delayed because of the X3 project.
Karak
Member
Christ. Thanks Melchieh for finding the post I needed as well hahahaha!
I was looking for that post way back a couple weeks ago but it was right here. In that same post the other guy says supercomputer as well. That seems like such an odd...term. Maybe it has something specific to do with parallelism or multi cpu or something.
I was looking for that post way back a couple weeks ago but it was right here. In that same post the other guy says supercomputer as well. That seems like such an odd...term. Maybe it has something specific to do with parallelism or multi cpu or something.
Dr. Zoidberg
Member
Some people here believe the proliferation of downloadable game libraries this past generation means BC is more important than ever. For me, I am not sure who to believe, but based on what we know I'm not expecting a good BC solution from either one. (And no, gakai-style streaming is not a good solution, IMO). If one of them was able to pull off some sort of BC miracle, it could be a huge marketing point for the first year if driven home with the public.
Thats correct. Some of the initial losses were absorbed and others were written off. The xbox division has been very profitable for years now. Its not like investors are looking back at 2003 earnings and screaming for losses to be paid back.
At any rate even if the PS4 project was delayed his friend thought that both would be out next fall.
I think BC is a bigger issue than ever before. Main reason is this time we have digital titles. A lot of folks have a library of digital titles they have bought and expect those games to work on the successor, just like a iPhone user expects all there apps to work on the next iPhone. Also this time there are many online games that have built up communities. For example someone who plays Halo 4 or SSFIV online a lot and would like to play that game for many years but they don't want to keep an old system plugged in just to play that game.
Then a few years later they may stop playing them and go on to SSFV on the ps4.
Melchiah
Member
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
lol, poor sony, first cell, now ps4.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I don't know if anything actually happened to Sweetvar here at Gaf, but he just posted yesterday.
All the talk of deleted posts, being banned and a C&D order seem a bit OTT.
Anyway, reading that latest post purportedly by Sweetvar, it reads to me that the PS4 is closer to being finished and ahead of the 720?
Not since the September ones. it seems 50/50 if they will implement them at the moment. Expect online codes with all games next gen bare minimum.
phosphor112
Banned
More hardware doesn't mean more power. They have rumors of TV functionality and such. That hardware wouldn't go toward games.
Same goes for Sony losses which are so often trotted out.
I don't think MS will shut it down, more that you can't just assume that MS has more money to play with compared to Sony, just because the rest of the company has more money. The Xbox division has to present and get approval for its plans and the investment needed. It's been around over ten years now and is perhaps more likely to be at a stage where MS would like some growth and returns. So there won't be a bottomless purse to spend from
Sony use precisely that kind of rhetoric with the Ps3 launch at E3 in 2005. It was bullshit then, and if MS put a ton of weak CPUs in the Xbox 3 it'll be bullshit this time too.
Karak
Member
This wasn't MS, in so much as a company line. This was a hardware designer comparing the two, that DOESN'T work at MS. And 1 internal MS employee working on the system who seemed to use the same language in concert. The term is interesting not a demarked spot on a technical sheet. As a term used to differentiate the 2 by someone with the design chops, it indicates a difference of some kind. As an internal word used to hint or explain the system it could be anything. However, the 2 together seems to indicate a culture within the design teams in describing a difference between 2 systems.
Damn now THAT is something I should have asked him about too. Shit I totally forgot that rumor.
Good point. That is something that bears thought for sure.
I can't wait to hear more. So far the rumours have MS delayed, Sony delayed, Sony weaker, Sony stronger, MS with IBM CPU, MS with AMD CPU, 2Gb for PS4 all the way up to 12Gb for MS. HDMI pass through, stacked ram, edram, Edam (yum)
Basically every combination has been covered and we don't know anything concrete.
Basically every combination has been covered and we don't know anything concrete.
Karak
Member
Just the ARM security thing which was hinted at as a separate item used to combat piracy in some way. But obviously piracy in no way equals used games. So hopefully this is just another thing that combats burned disks, hacked harddrives and so forth and doesn't restrict games being used.
Of course it would give us a good leap. I don't understand how being weaker than the XB3 would result in disappointing graphics.
I'm looking at the whole picture. I think it's fair to say Sony learned their lessons regarding the hardware and tools, I think the system will be priced better than the PS3, I think the system will be competitive with performance, we know Sony has plenty of talent to create games, etc.
So while I understand that it's unfortunate BC may not make it, that doesn't mean the PS4 won't be a great system.
This is kind of a broad question, much like how it's hard to determine how the Wii-U's CPU compares to the Xenon/Cell chips. When comparing Cell to say a Jaguar set up, the Cell would definitely provide better floating point performance, but lack when handling general purpose code. Single thread performance is shit on the Cell and that's an area that should improve with something like Jaguar.
With the bulk of FP calculations done on the GPU, along with advancements of GPGPU, the actual need or place of a chip like Cell is less and less. I prefer not to link to it, but there was a recent thread at B3D talking about the Cell and basically how it was not the dev's ideal choice for a CPU, check it out if this interests you.
I would love to see you explain how it would.
Oh of course, I was talking about Jeff's assertion about the possibility of GPU processing power for XB3 punching well above 2TF but below 5TF whereas the PS4's APU solution would, at max, be churning out 2TF.
Perhaps I should have been more clear. Looking at the way 77XX cards perform when paired with 6GB system RAM and Core i5 or i7 (things that PS4 would never hope to have) it can seen that Cape Verde can't even perform at a steady 30fps when pushed to 1080p (at near max setting) on "Current gen" PC games (on a game as old as 2007). So what hope in hell would PS4 have in playing next-gen games as portrayed by Epic, Lucasarts, Ubisoft or SE?
Unless coding to the metal can work miracles, are we to assume that what we see here is the extent of "generational shift" on PS4?
And pertaining to the why it matters if PS4 is much weaker than XB3, I've already stated it has to do with attach rates of third party software.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I've got no problem with this.
Restrict used games I have a huge problem with. I don't think it was a coincidence that those "rumors" about restricting used games came out so widespread and at the same time.
Oh sorry, I guess jumped the gun on your question =p
Well I doubt we'd see a stock version of this card, so it's hard to say. However, yes, we could still see a good leap in performance even if they based their GPU on that card IMO. It all depends on what modifications are made.
I don't see the PS4 (or XB3) being much weaker than the competition, so there really is no concern for 3rd party support IMO.
Karak
Member
I think the use of codes, and various other things somewhat do this on their own. A very small amount but it works better than a chip designed to just lock them out. I do not agree with restricting used games nor do I think that they artificially hit publishers as hard as they would like us to think. Then again I don't have the numbers to back that up. Just what I think.
Publishers need to really get on the ball when it comes to game costs including sales, and deals and so forth. Consoles just are not there yet. If I were a publisher I would love to get 10.00 for an old game rather than someone else get it...so I would just put the damned thing on sale
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
yeah, ps4 is only gonna give us current gen games at high resolutions and some form of AA.
did you somehow miss that 7 year old consoles are doing titles like last of us, gow4, beyond, halo 4, forza horizon and gears judgement?
trying to see what the ps4 and xb3 are gonna be able to achieve by looking at reviews desktop cpu's and gpu's is just silly.
Graphics Horse
Member
Yeah that was one of Sweetvar26's posts that vanished.
Don't hate me. I get depressed ;P
While what you say unequivocally true, it's just a hard pill to swallow that a GPU like the Cape Verde on a rig like that would struggle to run a 5 year old game on 1080p with 4xAA, among other things, would somehow be elevated to a whole new level when it goes into a console that doesn't comprise of the aforementioned ancillary specs. The final proof is undoubtedly in the pudding, but the more speculations I read about surrounding PS4 the more knots form in my stomach.
RE: Backwards Compatibility
Now that both MS and Sony have a mature online store and digital marketplace, the expectation from consumers is that buying new iterations of hardware will allow their existing digital software library to work. Sure, with gaming, it's a far bigger task to achieve this, but if you look at the recent gaming hardware launches, they've all allowed for this.
The 3DS lets you transfer and play your DSi games. The Wii U does the same for your WiiWare and VC games. The Vita lets you play (most of) your PS1, PSP and Minis games.
Outside of gaming, this is the defacto way to do things. You buy a new iPhone/iPad, and you know it will play your existing iOS library. Same with Samsung Galaxy etc. Same with a PC. Imagine buying a new PC and then your Steam library no longer worked. 'Hey, just have two PCs', some might stupidly say.
Let's imagine the iPhone 6 comes out next year, and was based on different hardware so lost backwards compatibility. What would the impact be? You'd have a bunch of pissed of consumers, but more to the point, Apple would see long time customers go over to Samsung or other providers. The best weapon that Apple have in the phone and tablet market is their mature digital marketplace ecosystem which ties customers to their hardware. If your apps were just tied to a single iPhone, consumers would have nothing to stop them switching over to Android.
The other point is if the PS4/Xbox3 didn't play current gen games, the existing digital games would no longer have a hardware platform, so once 360/PS3 sales dry up, these games would no longer be bought. If they're playable on future consoles, they will continue to sell and generate revenue for the platform holders. Again, imagine if you bought a new phone/tablet/laptop, you couldn't buy songs/movies/games/apps for it that were released before the hardware.
So BC is not just beneficial to the consumers, but to Sony and MS too.
My gut feeling is that the next Xbox will have BC (as MS seem far more astute around generating revenues from their platforms), but the PS4 probably won't.
Now that both MS and Sony have a mature online store and digital marketplace, the expectation from consumers is that buying new iterations of hardware will allow their existing digital software library to work. Sure, with gaming, it's a far bigger task to achieve this, but if you look at the recent gaming hardware launches, they've all allowed for this.
The 3DS lets you transfer and play your DSi games. The Wii U does the same for your WiiWare and VC games. The Vita lets you play (most of) your PS1, PSP and Minis games.
Outside of gaming, this is the defacto way to do things. You buy a new iPhone/iPad, and you know it will play your existing iOS library. Same with Samsung Galaxy etc. Same with a PC. Imagine buying a new PC and then your Steam library no longer worked. 'Hey, just have two PCs', some might stupidly say.
Let's imagine the iPhone 6 comes out next year, and was based on different hardware so lost backwards compatibility. What would the impact be? You'd have a bunch of pissed of consumers, but more to the point, Apple would see long time customers go over to Samsung or other providers. The best weapon that Apple have in the phone and tablet market is their mature digital marketplace ecosystem which ties customers to their hardware. If your apps were just tied to a single iPhone, consumers would have nothing to stop them switching over to Android.
The other point is if the PS4/Xbox3 didn't play current gen games, the existing digital games would no longer have a hardware platform, so once 360/PS3 sales dry up, these games would no longer be bought. If they're playable on future consoles, they will continue to sell and generate revenue for the platform holders. Again, imagine if you bought a new phone/tablet/laptop, you couldn't buy songs/movies/games/apps for it that were released before the hardware.
So BC is not just beneficial to the consumers, but to Sony and MS too.
My gut feeling is that the next Xbox will have BC (as MS seem far more astute around generating revenues from their platforms), but the PS4 probably won't.
Karak
Member
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
isn't rsx supposed to be a god awful gpu? half the bus width of the 7800,really bad at some kind of graphical operations, etc? look at what it's accomplishing. great looking 1st party games, some superior 3rd party games, some on par and some worse. cell has advantages and disadvantages, and the split room ram plays a part on it too. xenos and xenon and the ram configuration on 360 also have advantages and disadvantages and look what it's capable of.
again, you CAN'T compare what these consoles will be able to do by looking at what some "identical" parts are doing in the desktop or laptop space.
next generation ballpark has already been established and it's samaritan, watch_dogs, star wars and agnis philosophy. if we reach them (or not) or even surpass them as the years go is unknown and can't be measured by what pc's are doing today. if the ps4 or xb3 are strong or weaker doesn't really matter because we've already seen what we're supposed to expect from both consoles.
both consoles will have advantages and disadvantages, neither will be "perfect", it's a matter of finding a good balance between all components.
edit: also, i don't hate you
jeff_rigby
Banned
I didn't say that:
Both consoles could be APU + GPU and exactly the same gaming performance or Xbox3 could have some of the GPU reserved for serving to handhelds.
The same reason MS had screwed up BC for the 360; Nvidia.