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[Polari]

I don't see how an 8 core Jaguar processor is easier to program with...unless those cores are better at general processing than CELL's SPUs.

Which they are. It's a relatively standard x86 processor. Cell is a strange beast in comparison.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

WiiU owners may be vindicated yet in their belief that there will be at most just more than a marginal difference between WiiU and XB3/PS4.

no chance. Will it be HD vs non-HD? No. But it will be a big difference.

 

[i-Lo]

That's a very eloquent argument you got there. I'm convinced.

Let me put this link here so that you can understand that all games being developed today are created to use all the power available in the consoles, not the PCs. Maybe you know more than John Carmack.


http://www.gamefront.com/carmack-we-do-not-see-the-pc-as-the-leading-platform-for-games/

I wonder if Carmack was consulted by either or both parties during the development of their next gen wine cooler friendly boxes.

 

[thehypocrite]

Carmack sorta corrected himself on the "2x power" quote. I'm on mobile so I'm not going to be googling that for you.

Excellent argument. Not to mention that wasn't even the point.

 

[Shayan]

If an 8 core jaguar processor is really 2X Cell, I wonder why they didn't just go with 2 CELLs in the PS4, which would allow for backwards compatability and developers at this point are already used to dealing with the SPE's.

Is it just that integrating it into one chip with AMD would be too challenging?

that 2x perf gain is also theoretical and pc processors are not as efficient as SPEs

I also believe that SONY has enough time to actually come up with a cell cluster . I am sure if they ask IBM , they can shrink it down to 15nm-22nm by the end of the end

 

[beast786]

False.

Then how come GTA,Assasian creed , witcher 2 etc all minimum PC requirement is way more than the final spec of 360/ps3?

 

[Foil]

It really isn't fine. They won't make PS3's forever, and all PS3's will break eventually.

I was talking about being fine for the base PS4, which I assume will only have minor BC, maybe with PS1 games and possibly PS2 titles.

The add-on I suggested would support all retail and digital titles from PS1-PS3. Believe me, as somebody who lost a 60GB unit and has a slim that isn't doing so hot these days I want BC as much as anyone. But I also doubt Sony will add that extra cost to the PS4 hardware. For me, it seems like a BC add-on is the only solution that should please most people.

It would suck having to buy an add-on, but I'd rather have that then nothing. Assuming it's priced properly.

 

[Valnen]

will everyone's ps3 vanish when ps4 comes out?

not worth it for anyone. i'd rather sony keep the price down.

Then pass the cost onto the consumer by making it an optional attachment or higher priced SKU. Whatever they do, some form of BC with PS3 is simply necessary simply because the PSN exists and people have digital libraries they want to keep.

 

[shinra-bansho]

WiiU owners may be vindicated yet in their belief that there will be at most just more than a marginal difference between Wii U and XB3/PS4.

Are you referring solely to the difference in CPUs?

IIRC, someone (Durante?) calculated that in terms of floating point performance the Wii U CPU was around 15 Gflops; while the Jaguar cores are 12.8 Gflops per core?

Not sure how they compare with regard to other metrics.

 

[Tagg9]

Are you referring solely to the difference in CPUs?

IIRC, someone (Durante?) calculated that in terms of floating point performance the Wii U CPU was around 15 Gflops; while the Jaguar cores are 12.8 Gflops per core?

Not sure how they compare with regard to other metrics.

Exactly. We're still looking at 15Gflops vs. 100+GBflops on Durante and Orbis.

 

[Proxy]

Exactly. We're still looking at 15Gflops vs. 100+GBflops on Durante and Orbis.

lol.

 

[pieatorium]

lol.

Durante is at least 10 terror flops

 

[i-Lo]

Are you referring solely to the difference in CPUs?

IIRC, someone (Durante?) calculated that in terms of floating point performance the Wii U CPU was around 15 Gflops; while the Jaguar cores are 12.8 Gflops per core?

Not sure how they compare with regard to other metrics.

So it's effectively 102.4 GFlops. So what's the alleged processing power of Steamroller in comparison?

Exactly. We're still looking at 15Gflops vs. 100+GBflops on Durante and Orbis.

What's GBFlops? Also, Durante won't be too happy to go from a "he" to an "it".

Durante is at least 10 terror flops

Durante creates success FROM visual FLOPs.

 

[googleplex]

I don't see how an 8 core Jaguar processor is easier to program with...unless those cores are better at general processing than CELL's SPUs.

They are.

 

[Globox_82]

So do we expect new rumors during next week? maybe even tomorrow?

 

[Reiko]

Damn, Durante has insanely powerful life vitals in TFLOPS.

 

[Spongebob]

So do we expect new rumors during next week? maybe even tomorrow?

Monday probably to maximize hits.

 

[rdrr gnr]

I don't need to know the specs tomorrow but just announce when you are going to announce things so my life has structure and meaning.

 

[Globox_82]

Just reread that nowgamer rumor, it sounded like complete fanboy crap, so I looked at the source...misterx? I clicked the link that led to the blog....and I recognized who that idiot is. It's that Russian xbox fanboy if I am correct. I can't believe they made an article based on that. Desperate for hits maybe. But wow he mentions ray tracing engines in other posts lol...

 

[Reiko]

Just reread that nowgamer rumor, it sounded like complete fanboy crap, so I looked at the source...misterx? I clicked the link that led to the blog....and I recognized who that idiot is. It's that Russian xbox fanboy if I am correct. I can't believe they made an article based on that. Desperate for hits maybe. But wow he mentions ray tracing engines in other posts lol...

A specialized Ray Tracing unit would change the game.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

WiiU owners may be vindicated yet in their belief that there will be at most just more than a marginal difference between WiiU and XB3/PS4.

this

IBM PowerPC 750-based tri-core processor "Espresso" reportedly clocked at 1.24 GHz.
AMD Radeon High Definition processor codenamed "Latte" with an eDRAM cache built onto the die reportedly clocked at 550 MHz.
2 GB total, consisting of four 512 MB (4 Gb) DDR3-1600 DRAM chips at 12.8 GB/s total bandwidth, with 1 GB reserved for the operating system and unavailable to games

is nowhere near the performance you're going to get from orbis or durango. pretty pathetic specs for a 2012 machine if you ask me. orbis and durango however sound very much "next-gen"

 

[Dark_AnNiaLatOr]

A specialized Ray Tracing unit would change the game.

I feel like the crippled level of ray tracing possible right now would be greatly overshadowed by global illumination in next-gen engines.

 

[Swifty]

I don't see how an 8 core Jaguar processor is easier to program with...unless those cores are better at general processing than CELL's SPUs.

Cell is a heterogeneous CPU architecture. x86 isn't. Makes things a lot easier.

 

[Globox_82]

remember this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kve7A1NxiUM

we know ms will do something like this again, but I doubt sony will.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Cell is a heterogeneous CPU architecture. x86 isn't. Makes things a lot easier.

Full HSA, heterogeneous x86

 

[McHuj]

Sorry could you explain to me the second paragraph? Also did you mean that 8 core CPU including L2 cache fabricated at 28nm will be take up 40-50mm (not nm)?
.

Yes. An 8-core Jaguar based CPU should be around 40-50mm on 28nm. I was trying to say that if you wanted to make a closer apples-to-apples comparison of the WiiU and potential 8 core jaguar CPU (without benchmarks or real world apps), you would have to look how those CPU's would look on the same process node and the Jaguar based CPU would be massive in comparison to the WiiU CPU. And unless AMD are a bunch of idiots, those transistors will be doing a lot more work per clock.

So it's effectively 102.4 GFlops. So what's the alleged processing power of Steamroller in comparison?

Depends on the clock speed. In theory, 4 steamroller cores @ 3.2 GHz would have the same theoretical performance as an 8 Jaguar cores @ 1.6 GHz. The FPU unit isn't improved over piledriver/bulldozer in steamroller. And it's still shared between two cores. Steamroller would have better single threaded code performance for stuff like branches, integer math, maybe more efficient utilization of the FPU, but not necessarily better theoretical throughput in terms of flops.

 

[TUROK]

as is the myth of "console optimization" netting you some kind of doubling of power.

Ah, now I understand your tag.

If you want to ignore the very tangible benefits of programming for an exact hardware specification, you do not belong here.

A specialized Ray Tracing unit would change the game.

Not if you understand how silly that sounds.

 

[shinobi602]

For those of you disappointed by the specs (which aren't 100% confirmed) so far, let me put some things in perspective for you.

These are running on ancient-ass hardware. I'm talking antique GPU equivalents to about a 7600GT (PS3) and around dual 6800 Ultras (360), and shitty 512mb of ram.

The PS4 and 720 absolutely obliterate these specs wise. Jaws will drop. Maybe not right at launch, but they will eventually. Stop worrying.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

For DF to be that excited about the specs in the article really says something as well. They would have torn this thing apart if there were any bottle necks and caveats.

 

[Reiko]

For DF to be that excited about the specs in the article really says something. They would have torn this thing apart if there were any bottle necks and caveats.

Yep. The missing pieces of Durango and Orbis specs hint that we will be dealing with 2 monstrous new consoles.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

remember this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kve7A1NxiUM

we know ms will do something like this again, but I doubt sony will.

Wow, had no idea Drew Barrymore was in an xbox commercial.

 

[grimshawish]

is nowhere near the performance you're going to get from orbis or durango. pretty pathetic specs for a 2012 machine if you ask me. orbis and durango however sound very much "next-gen"

By next gen am taking it you mean a jump over the PS3/360 as oppose to what it actually means which is just a description of the devices competing over a similar time period...

...then I'd say only Orbis really sounds anything special.
Durango strikes me as a device that could have problems after the start of the gen.

For DF to be that excited about the specs in the article really says something as well. They would have torn this thing apart if there were any bottle necks and caveats.

They don't know much more though.
Simple reason? Their excited for next-gen and bored of current gen systems which is quite understandable given they've been doing analysis of games for a few years now which can't stand up to a pretty basic rig they set up.

 

[funkystudent]

remember this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kve7A1NxiUM

we know ms will do something like this again, but I doubt sony will.

I remember geoff keighley saying Microsoft have a tight relationship with Viacom and thats why things like this and the kinect cirque du soleil thing happened and he even said it was why spike didnt show Sony's e3 show last year.

If Sony wanted to do a TV unavailing they would need to do it somewhere other then MTV or Spike which seem to be the only channels that seemed to be interested in doing such a th.......


Wait..... its 2013. They could just do something on Youtube and it would be just as successful. Yeah they should do something live over youtube.

 

[StevieP]

Ah, now I understand your tag.

If you want to ignore the very tangible benefits of programming for an exact hardware specification, you do not belong here.

if you want to tag quote me, look through my history and compare them to this leak. That's not even necessary, however, considering in the exact same quote I mentioned you gain more resources by having a game console dedicated to gaming. However,

1. A magical 2x gain is a myth, because hardware is still bound to physics. A pitcairn-like chip is still that.
2. There will be much more resources dedicated to non-gaming apps this time around anyway

 

[Spongebob]

Yep. The missing pieces of Durango and Orbis specs hint that we will be dealing with 2 monstrous new consoles.

Let's not get carried away here.

 

[i-Lo]

Yes. An 8-core Jaguar based CPU should be around 40-50mm on 28nm. I was trying to say that if you wanted to make a closer apples-to-apples comparison of the WiiU and potential 8 core jaguar CPU (without benchmarks or real world apps), you would have to look how those CPU's would look on the same process node and the Jaguar based CPU would be massive in comparison to the WiiU CPU. And unless AMD are a bunch of idiots, those transistors will be doing a lot more work per clock.

Depends on the clock speed. In theory, 4 steamroller cores @ 3.2 GHz would have the same theoretical performance as an 8 Jaguar cores @ 1.6 GHz. The FPU unit isn't improved over piledriver/bulldozer in steamroller. And it's still shared between two cores. Steamroller would have better single threaded code performance for stuff like branches, integer math, maybe more efficient utilization of the FPU, but not necessarily better theoretical throughput in terms of flops.

Thank you for the explanation.

Ah, now I understand your tag.

If you want to ignore the very tangible benefits of programming for an exact hardware specification, you do not belong here.

I don't think he's denying that there is a benefit when coding to exact specs but he states that's not as large as 35% (of untapped performance).

To think a bit further down the line, coding to exact hardware spec isn't the only plus when it comes to closed box; resolution and choice of locking the framerate also grants added advantage.

Let's not get carried away here.

Yea, you tell'em it's WiiU x 1.84

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

By next gen am taking it you mean a jump over the PS3/360 as oppose to what it actually means which is just a description of the devices competing over a similar time period...

...then I'd say only Orbis really sounds anything special.
Durango strikes me as a device that could have problems after the start of the gen.



They don't know much more though.
Simple reason? Their excited for next-gen and bored of current gen systems which is quite understandable given they've been doing analysis of games for a few years now which can't stand up to a pretty basic rig they set up.

They have enough information to form a verdict on the overall foundation of the system. If you have any experience reading their articles DF is extremely analytical. They very rarely throw excitement around and never drop hyperbole. Even with a truly impressive graphical achievement they are very matter of fact about the sacrifices and benefits in any game. I trust their outlook on the potential of these systems a great deal and especially more than people on gaf. For them to look at the Orbis specs and see nothing but epic potential for the system means a lot.

 

[Polari]

For those of you disappointed by the specs (which aren't 100% confirmed) so far, let me put some things in perspective for you.

Let's also remember what the launch titles looked like:

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Let's also remember what the launch titles looked like:

I remember the wall being impressive.

 

[Spongebob]

Let's also remember what the launch titles looked like:

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/ve3d/images/01/35/13589_project-dark-zero-nudies-20050513053222175_normal.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

I doubt the difference between next-gen launch games and late next-gen games will be nearly as big.

 

[Derrick01]

Let's also remember what the launch titles looked like:

PDZ didn't look like that most times.

 

[shinobi602]

I doubt the difference between next-gen launch games and late next-gen games will be nearly as big.

I'm willing to bet they will be. They always are. Logically that is the case as devs find more ways to circumvent limitations and unlock overlooked potentials in each system.

 

[TUROK]

if you want to tag quote me, look through my history and compare them to this leak. That's not even necessary, however, considering in the exact same quote I mentioned you gain more resources by having a game console dedicated to gaming. However,

1. A magical 2x gain is a myth, because hardware is still bound to physics. A pitcairn-like chip is still that.
2. There will be much more resources dedicated to non-gaming apps this time around anyway

I didn't mention anything about a 2X gain and omitted that part of the quote because whoever suggested it is probably doesn't have any idea what they're talking about.

Your second point is irrelevant. Developers will still know exactly how much RAM, CPU, and GPU resources they will have at their disposal, and being able to program with that in mind is highly highly beneficial.

 

[Spongebob]

I'm willing to bet they will be. They always are. Logically that is the case as devs find more ways to circumvent limitations and unlock overlooked potentials in each system.

Going from last gen to this gen devs had to get accustomed to programmable shaders and multicore CPUs. Next-gen devs won't have anything like that to deal with.

 

[NBtoaster]

Let's also remember what the launch titles looked like:

It had next gen walls

 

[i-Lo]

I doubt the difference between next-gen launch games and late next-gen games will be nearly as big.

Judging by the history of the games released for all the 3D consoles to this day and trend of significant observable visual upgrade the titles received from the launch to twilight year, your scepticism is unwarranted.

 

[Mr.Green]

I'll admit. There was a part of me that hoped MS or Sony would make a deal with IBM, Intel or AMD and come up with crazy new tech like Quantum computing or chips made of graphene or something and blow our minds.

I guess we'll have to settle for fucking laptop parts.

 

[Reiko]

Judging by the history of the games released for all the 3D consoles to this day and trend of significant observable visual upgrade the titles received from the launch to twilight year, your scepticism is unwarranted.

Don't worry. I've read posts like these last gen. And every gen we're proven wrong.

Atari/NES/Genesis/MasterSystem/SNES/N64/PSX/PS2/Dreamcast/Saturn/3DO/Jaguar/Gamecube/Xbox/PS3/Xbox 360/Wii... etc

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I doubt the difference between next-gen launch games and late next-gen games will be nearly as big.

You must be new to this whole console business. PC gamer jumping in?

 

[Death Dealer]

For them to look at the Orbis specs and see nothing but epic potential for the system means a lot.

IF everything they say about PS4 is true, I'm pleased. 8 core Jaguar (that's a boon, everyone thought Durango would have more cores, which in AMD hw means more threads), 4GB of fast GDDR5, 1.8+ TF GPU, multiple co-processors etc. And today's flops are more efficient than RSX's flops, plus DX11.5 etc, the GPU is more than a 10X jump in performance. They wouldn't give it all that bandwidth if it was a slouch. I can't believe some are disappointed in these specs, or honestly expected next gen consoles to match top of the line PCs. It's no less than a generational leap over PS3.