Support NeoGAF

[brain_stew]

Are you writing this on a cell phone?

Oops a daisy!

 

[XtremeXpider]

Orbis is most likely going to cost less to build than durango even without kinect going by these specs.

Why? can you elaborate?

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Dave Kujan: A rumor's not a rumor that doesn't die...

 

[El_Chino]

Seems like GAF needs a new leak.

 

[Vol5]

Stacking DDR3 memory is going to increase its bandwidth?

It can do depending on the design, but there are heat issues (along with the production and current cost).

 

[oversitting]

Why? can you elaborate?

The eSRAM is going to have low yields at the start of production. Itself will be about 80mm^2, the move engine are looking to be serious logic blocks which could be quite large. The 8GB is DDR3 ram is going to cost a bit more than the GDDR5 if they can't get 8Gb chips for cheap. Just for processing the system will probably have total chip area of ~300mm, which includes many new elements which probably don't have good yields at 28nm.
CPU= ~60mm^2
GPU+ect = ~160mm^2
eSRAM = ~80mm^2
total = ~300mm^2

PS4 is going with things AMD can design for cheap and with production already known. The GPU/CPU are both modified AMD chips already in production. Total die area will probably be slightly less than the XB3.
CPU= ~60mm^2
GPU= ~212mm^2
total= ~272mm^2

given how newer more custom designs take longer to get production cost down, its likely the ps4 will actually be somewhat cheaper to produce at least at the start of the generation.

 

[nib95]

The eSRAM is going to have low yields at the start of production. Itself will be about 80mm^2, the move engine are looking to be serious logic blocks which could be quite large. The 8GB is DDR3 ram is going to cost a bit more than the GDDR5 if they can't get 8Gb chips for cheap. Just for processing the system will probably have total chip area of ~300mm, which includes many new elements which probably don't have good yields at 28nm.
CPU= ~60mm^2
GPU+ect = ~160mm^2
eSRAM = ~80mm^2
total = ~300mm^2

PS4 is going with things AMD can design for cheap and with production already known. The GPU/CPU are both modified AMD chips already in production. Total die area will probably be slightly less than the XB3.
CPU= ~60mm^2
GPU= ~212mm^2
total= ~272mm^2

given how newer more custom designs take longer to get production cost down, its likely the ps4 will actually be somewhat cheaper to produce at least at the start of the generation.

You mentioned 8GB of DDR3 could be more expensive than 4GB of GDDR5, however contract prices currently show 8GB of DDR3 to be around $20-$30, whilst it's $70 and above for GDDR5. I'm sure Sony and Microsoft will get special rates, but how did you conclude DDR3 could be more expensive?

 

[AgentP]

The eSRAM is going to have low yields at the start of production. Itself will be about 80mm^2, the move engine are looking to be serious logic blocks which could be quite large. The 8GB is DDR3 ram is going to cost a bit more than the GDDR5 if they can't get 8Gb chips for cheap. Just for processing the system will probably have total chip area of ~300mm, which includes many new elements which probably don't have good yields at 28nm.
CPU= ~60mm^2
GPU+ect = ~160mm^2
eSRAM = ~80mm^2
total = ~300mm^2

PS4 is going with things AMD can design for cheap and with production already known. The GPU/CPU are both modified AMD chips already in production. Total die area will probably be slightly less than the XB3.
CPU= ~60mm^2
GPU= ~212mm^2
total= ~272mm^2

given how newer more custom designs take longer to get production cost down, its likely the ps4 will actually be somewhat cheaper to produce at least at the start of the generation.

You should link your source, B3D I'm guessing, I've seen similar estimates there. We have enough wannabe insiders and technical people around here. Show your work or your source.

 

[aegies]

The eSRAM is going to have low yields at the start of production. Itself will be about 80mm^2, the move engine are looking to be serious logic blocks which could be quite large. The 8GB is DDR3 ram is going to cost a bit more than the GDDR5 if they can't get 8Gb chips for cheap. Just for processing the system will probably have total chip area of ~300mm, which includes many new elements which probably don't have good yields at 28nm.
CPU= ~60mm^2
GPU+ect = ~160mm^2
eSRAM = ~80mm^2
total = ~300mm^2

PS4 is going with things AMD can design for cheap and with production already known. The GPU/CPU are both modified AMD chips already in production. Total die area will probably be slightly less than the XB3.
CPU= ~60mm^2
GPU= ~212mm^2
total= ~272mm^2

given how newer more custom designs take longer to get production cost down, its likely the ps4 will actually be somewhat cheaper to produce at least at the start of the generation.

Orbis is also a single chip SOC, and has a more aggressive target for working CUs and such. They're more likely to get bitten in the ass on yield issues.

 

[Proelite]

You mentioned 8GB of DDR3 could be more expensive than 4GB of GDDR5, however contract prices currently show 8GB of DDR3 to be around $20-$30, whilst it's $70 and above for GDDR5. I'm sure Sony and Microsoft will get special rates, but how did you conclude DDR3 could be more expensive?

He is saying 16 chips of DDR3 could be more expensive than 8 chips of GDDR5.

You have to factor in the motherboard design costs of 16 chips.

 

[nib95]

He is saying 16 chips of DDR3 could be more expensive than 8 chips of GDDR5.

You have to factor in the motherboard design costs of 16 chips.

Sounds a but implausible to me given the cost discrepancies. But who knows.

 

[DieH@rd]

Orbis is also a single chip SOC, and has a more aggressive target for working CUs and such. They're more likely to get bitten in the ass on yield issues.

AMD designed 28nm GPUs with much higher firepower, and they all have great yields. PS4 is using nothing exotic in its APU [SoC means that southbrige is inside the chip, I dont think that will be the case here] and manufacture will be smooth.

 

[Phonomezer]

Where's the source suggesting the Durango rumours are 10 months old?

 

[Deuterium]

Where's the source suggesting the Durango rumours are 10 months old?

There is just something a bit silly about this whole thing...when we start questioning "sources" which purportly are dealing in "rumors". Has the whole world gone crazy?

Until Microsoft releases something official, or until a credible Developer goes on the record...all this is speculation and heresay.

 

[Phonomezer]

There is just something a bit silly about this whole thing...when we start questioning "sources" which purportly are dealing in "rumors". Has the whole world gone crazy?

......


yes.

 

[Proelite]

AMD designed 28nm GPUs with much higher firepower, and they all have great yields. PS4 is using nothing exotic in its APU [SoC means that southbrige is inside the chip, I dont think that will be the case here] and manufacture will be smooth.

You mean north bridge.

 

[[Clark Gable]]

What I don't understand is, why do people think 1080p x2 MSAA is not enough for next gen games. When in reality we probably won't even have that, resolutions will probably variable.

 

[Karak]

What I don't understand is, why do people think 1080p x2 MSAA is not enough for next gen games. When in reality we probably won't even have that, resolutions will probably variable.

Expectations have been set VERY high due to the length of this cycle and technology available now.

 

[Proelite]

What I don't understand is, why do people think 1080p x2 MSAA is not enough for next gen games. When in reality we probably won't even have that, resolutions will probably variable.

1080p 2xMSAA + TXAA + 60fps is way more than enough

 

[i-Lo]

Expectations have been set VERY high due to the length of this cycle and technology available now.

Looking at your avatar, it makes me wonder how Frosbite 2 would fare given it has been touted as a cross generational engine. Makes me wonder how ME4 will look.

 

[NBtoaster]

1080p 2xMSAA + TXAA + 60fps is way more than enough

TXAA wont be happening without nvidia cards.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Is this fake?

 

[Dark_AnNiaLatOr]

Is this fake?

How does that signify Xbox? Regardless, where did you find that image?

 

[XtremeXpider]

How does that signify Xbox? Regardless, where did you find that image?

In another forum, I guess it is a fake.

EDIT: Maybe the sign mean Next Thing

 

[eso76]

In another forum, I guess it is a fake.

EDIT: Maybe the sign mean Next Thing

Looks more like a tablet if anything.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Looks more like a tablet if anything.

Yes, Surface Pro?

 

[thuway]

Seems like GAF needs a new leak.

We know almost everything about these machines. I would rather someone talk about the new controllers or launch titles.

I am curious to hear what "programmer" GAF has to say about the specs and ports between both machines.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

1080p 2xMSAA + TXAA + 60fps is way more than enough

Hell I'd be happy with the choice of 1080p and no AA or 720p and 2xAA and a solid 30fps....I really think this is more realistic.

 

[dragonelite]

Hell I'd be happy with the choice of 1080p and no AA or 720p and 2xAA and a solid 30fps....I really think this is more realistic.

That wasn't good enough for this gen let stand next gen.

 

[endresults]

Is this fake?

Looks like a stylized battery power graphic.

 

[XtremeXpider]

That wasn't good enough for this gen let stand next gen.

1080p/60+2xMSAA is ok for me.

Looks like a stylized battery power graphic.

Yes, like a phone or tablet battery.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Hell I'd be happy with the choice of 1080p and no AA or 720p and 2xAA and a solid 30fps....I really think this is more realistic.

I personally don't think 720p is realistic at all.

Walk into best buy,walmart target etc. and even the cheapest tv's are 1080p....

It would be stupid for Microsoft/Sony to release consoles that can't play games natively at 1080p.....


But that's just my opinion of course.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

TXAA wont be happening without nvidia cards.

I rather get SMAA, SMAA T2X, MLAA, and at least 1.5-2x MSAA then.

 

[mrgreen]

The specs of Durango and Orbis just show how far PC and laptop hardware has come since the launch of the 360.

Top-end mobile GPUs and CPUs are so close in power to desktop ones nowadays. I read how similar the speeds are of a certain Alienware i7 laptop CPU and a leading desktop CPU. It is incredible when you consider the power difference both systems use. I don't know what the deal is with GPU differences in top end mobiles and desktops but it doesn't take a genius to see that the mobile version could be very powerful indeed.

And when you think about how all that power will be used so incredibly more efficient in a console it really makes me moist thinking about the day I get to play Halo 5 and Just Cause 3 on the next consoles. Well, I hope the Durango won't be like a PC too much when it comes to system resources and meory useage etc.

 

[Karak]

I rather get SMAA, SMAA T2X, MLAA, and at least 1.5-2x MSAA then.

SMAA really is fantastic. It has its issues but as an overall solution I love it.

 

[LukeTim]

You mean north bridge.

Given how I have been put down in this thread before, I will approach this with caution.

I think that you may be thinking of the relatively recent movement of the Northbridge MMU and PCI-Express functionality onto the CPU die, which Intel has done... and AMD has been doing for even longer.

With an SoC (System on Chip), the CPU, MMU, GPU and other processing units which may or may not be included such as Video Encode/Decode etc. and other controllers are all on a single die... So the south bridge functionality would be there too?

I am not sure, that's just my understanding. I am prepared to be wrong about this.

 

[TheGuardian]

I am curious to hear what "programmer" GAF has to say about the specs and ports between both machines.

I would rather keep my job

 

[JaggedSac]

Is this fake?

Those are app icons. The marketplace icon looks like it might be the WP8 one, because it isn't the W8 one. Perhaps a teaser for a new app, possible home management app? Or a the rumored phone they are creating. If it is real.

 

[XtremeXpider]

I would rather keep my job

A simple "don't worry guys" is welcome...

 

[eso76]

That wasn't good enough for this gen let stand next gen.

I don't think 1080p is even in question.

Most games are 720p this gen (yes, most, regardless of what people say) and that would be the first generational leap without an increase in resolution.
We might see games in 960p or 800p, but new consoles are definitely aiming for 1080, no doubt.

Having said that, being able to choose between full HD and semi HD + better AA would be nice.
Especially since I'm still playing on a 720p panel

 

[mrgreen]

Saying that, I'm very worried that the Durango's CPU will be like the Wii U's. I know there are 8 cores but they look very slow, and surely it would be better to have 4 cores at 4 ghz, or so?

 

[XtremeXpider]

Saying that, I'm very worried that the Durango's CPU will be like the Wii U's. I know there are 8 cores but they look very slow,

Orbis will use the same cores for CPU...

And please, Wii U CPU is even slower than Xbox 360 and Durango CPU.

and surely it would be better to have 4 cores at 4 ghz, or so?

not necessarily

 

[Krabardaf]

What I don't understand is, why do people think 1080p x2 MSAA is not enough for next gen games. When in reality we probably won't even have that, resolutions will probably variable.

Because some rendering path, mainly deferred rendering, involve rendering multiple 1080p buffers and then combine them into a final image.
I don't have the math, but if you have three or more 1080p buffers, which is common in that scenario, it may not fit in the ESRAM.

But apparently, as scently indicates, ESRAM may not serve the same purpose as EDRAM. So the issue might not be so important than it was on 360.

Saying that, I'm very worried that the Durango's CPU will be like the Wii U's. I know there are 8 cores but they look very slow, and surely it would be better to have 4 cores at 4 ghz, or so?

WiiU CPU is far less efficient at the same clock speed. Really, there is no reason to think that the CPu will be like the WiiU one.

 

[mrgreen]

Orbis will use the same cores for CPU...

And please, Wii U CPU is even slower than Xbox 360 and Durango CPU.



not necessarily

Do you know that for a fact? If so then that's brilliant and exactly what I want to hear.

EDIT: I thought you wrote "definately not", not "not necessarily", I must have just read what I wanted it to say lol.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Do you know that for a fact? If so then that's brilliant and exactly what I want to hear.

Well, fact.... no, but rumors. Wii U CPU is PowerPC and Durango/Orbis CPUs are x86. And if you trust in vgleaks, Wii U CPU is based on the Wii CPU, but faster and multicore.

 

[mrgreen]

Well, fact.... no, but rumors. Wii U CPU is PowerPC and Durango/Orbis CPUs are x86. And if you trust in vgleaks, Wii U CPU is based in Wii CPU (but faster and multicore).

ok thanks. Power PC, x86, they both sound good to me but I don't know anything about PC CPU tech and all that.

Something like the Ipad 3 CPU must be extremely powerful to allow such a high resolution, when you think about how the Mac book needs an i7 CPU to handle the same display. So it looks very promising for what they will be able to do with the Durango (why is it called that?)

 

[Lord Error]

Orbis will use the same cores for CPU...

PS4 apparently has an additional compute unit which would be dedicated to offloading CPU tasks like physics and whatnot.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

PS4 apparently has an additional compute unit which would be dedicated to offloading CPU tasks like physics and whatnot.

Does this secret unit handle... sauce?

 

[Lord Error]

Does this secret unit handle... sauce?

I've only ever seen Eurogamer report on this, but they did have the most detailed-sounding rumor about it so far.

 

[Doffen]

Those are app icons. The marketplace icon looks like it might be the WP8 one, because it isn't the W8 one. Perhaps a teaser for a new app, possible home management app? Or a the rumored phone they are creating. If it is real.

They are using the same icon for Windows Store and Windows Phone Store.