jim-jam bongs
Member
What derogatory terms???
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Gabe: Singleplayer games are like a film where your lead actor is retarded & autistic
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
What derogatory terms???
Deuterium
Member
Look, I am the opposite of being a PC policeman. I only joined this discussion a few pages ago.
I am not personally offended by Gabe's comments. However...and this is my entire point, I can understand that some people would be offended. In scanning these 28 pages (up to this point), it is apparent there is a fair amount of people who, indeed, are offended by his choice of words.
My point is, Gabe is a smart guy, and should have known better.
Like it or not, this Country and much of the Western world has become hypersensitive to certain words and phrases. What were once acceptable terms of conversation, are no longer "acceptable". Is this fair? Probably not...however, it is the world we live in.
What we say in private is simply not judged (fairly or unfairly) at the same level, or looked at with the same scrutiny as what is said in public, especially "on the record" during an interview in which the interviewee (Gabe) knew full well that his words would be published.
Am I saying he is a bad person, or deserves to be fired? Hell no. Am I saying he exercised poor judgement...well, yes. Are we all guilty of exercising poor judgement at some time? Again, yes.
I am not personally offended by Gabe's comments. However...and this is my entire point, I can understand that some people would be offended. In scanning these 28 pages (up to this point), it is apparent there is a fair amount of people who, indeed, are offended by his choice of words.
My point is, Gabe is a smart guy, and should have known better.
Like it or not, this Country and much of the Western world has become hypersensitive to certain words and phrases. What were once acceptable terms of conversation, are no longer "acceptable". Is this fair? Probably not...however, it is the world we live in.
What we say in private is simply not judged (fairly or unfairly) at the same level, or looked at with the same scrutiny as what is said in public, especially "on the record" during an interview in which the interviewee (Gabe) knew full well that his words would be published.
Am I saying he is a bad person, or deserves to be fired? Hell no. Am I saying he exercised poor judgement...well, yes. Are we all guilty of exercising poor judgement at some time? Again, yes.
Yes. Characters aren't programmed with limited abilities intentionally, the world just hasn't been built up enough to allow those types of deep interactions. What he said makes sense, sure. I just think it's backwards. It's more of a structural game failure than one of intention.
Luminous_Reaver
Neo Member
I don't see what the problem is. I think he was referring to the silent protagonist archetype. Characters like Link, and Freeman.
They're basically dumb as boards and they struggle with interaction (because they're silent, ha) so the player has to fill in for them.
They're basically dumb as boards and they struggle with interaction (because they're silent, ha) so the player has to fill in for them.
I would suggest bowing to uninformed opinions to maintain appearances is more foolish since it just perpetuates the problem. If there is nothing wrong with what he said, the problem is not his.
Acrylic7
Member
yes, but its the words that he chose to describe what he was referring to that is upsetting people. Even though he obviously meant no harm.
cicero
Member
You say that you aren't a PC policeman, and then you go and refute your own assertion by positioning yourself as a PC policeman. Also, my previous post still exists.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47348343&postcount=1372
Again though, either you are pushing this standard as a PC policeman, or you are making apologist arguments for it and allowing for its legitimacy as a standard, simply because it already exists as a force or pressure within society, so why bother? Why should I accept that standard or move towards it based on those illegitimate and inferior grounds? Societal hypersensitivity be damned, screw political correctness. It is shallow and fake BS that doesn't actually serve moves towards even-handed civility in public discourse, but only special pressure groups who can yell and beat their chests the loudest about perceived ills that never have to be actually proved. Only the perception of offense matters. Fake BS.
Indeed.
Luminous_Reaver
Neo Member
Should we call the thinkpol on Gabe for using unsafe words, or on the public for ascribing pejorative meaning to arbitrary words?
Which is a greater thought crime?
It's for that very reason that he chose the language of mental illness. The way characters interact with the world is a structural limitation that can't be overcome all that simply. It's simply the way that singleplayer protagonists are.
I don't see how what he said is insulting, though, unless it's insulting to be compared to singleplayer protagonists. They may not be perfect, but a number of them are quite well-liked, and have achieved great things.
I looked at the quote again, and given how unbelievably minor it was to his overall point (singleplayer games can be improved by increasing the verisimilitude of the world, like a film, but multiplayer games are like a sport where that doesn't matter very much), maybe it would have been best if he said nothing at all. At least in the case of this thread, it entirely sabotaged his talk.
Deuterium
Member
You say that you aren't a PC policeman, and then you go and refute your own assertion by positioning yourself as a PC policeman. Also, my previous post still exists.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47348343&postcount=1372
Hi Cicero,
I thought I was being careful to note that Gabe's choice of words were dissapointing, in my opinion. I even bolded "In my opinion" for emphasis.
Fair enough. We will just have to agree to disagree on this matter. As I said, we do not have to be happy with this Politically Correct world we live in...nevertheless, it is a reality. Again, it is my opinion that someone who is the head of a respected Company, with hundreds of people in his employ, would be more sensitive to this reality.
Cheers, mate.
cicero
Member
I would say that the title of this thread sabotaged this thread.
gutter_trash
Banned
considering Half-Life and Portal, I don't get where Gabe is going with this retarded comment.
jim-jam bongs
Member
This is now my favourite post in the thread.
You're bringing up a couple of games featuring totally mute protagonists; who the player controls from first person and very occasionally sees in a mirror; who can only interact with the world by shooting, flipping switches and throwing inanimate objects... and you can't see where he's coming from at all?
I hope the moderators have gathered useful data from this sick experiment.
I dunno. There are other threads on his talk, and they have no traction. No one is interested in actually discussing his points outside of debating whether or not he should have used the terms he did.
But I do know this, I don't want to play a movie and oftentimes npc's are far more engaging than a real person.
cicero
Member
Hello.
Honestly, I refer back to my previous comment.
I don't desire politically correct standards that effectively curtail and restrain public discourse, so I refuse to adhere to them or passively accept them. It is only a "reality" if one allows it to remain so. I hope Gabe has the guts to adhere to some kind of personal principle where he is not moved by either censure or praise.
I understood the meaning of what he said but his choice of word wasn't ideal. I'm not a political correctness stickler but I still expect the guy at the top of a huge company to do better than that.
Really wonder what would have happened in the thread if it was Kotick that used the word "retarded" and "autistic".
Really wonder what would have happened in the thread if it was Kotick that used the word "retarded" and "autistic".
jim-jam bongs
Member
You don't have a choice.
you missed his point entirely
Exactly.
Just to offer some background, I'm someone with autism and growing up I was always ashamed of who I was and the condition I had, because society as a whole looked down on people with mental illnesses. I suffered from my condition as a kid, but thankfully by the time I was in high school I had overcome it to the point that nobody would even believe me if I told them I was autistic, and my closest family and friends still can't believe that I had this condition at all when I was young. (basically they think of me as another person)
I know Gabe used those words to describe how absurd the lead character can act in a single player game, and I assume he didn't use those words out of malice, but yes he could have used a better choice of words given his position. Regardless even though I am happy to see people here not tolerate this kind of speak and make a stand against this, this is not a situation that merits it. The reaction here is blown out of proportion because there have been situations that are much more hateful and insensitive than this found practically anywhere(even on GAF) and I barely seen any reaction like this, but as soon as someone of stance like Gabe says it (and not even an offensive statement really) everyone gets up in arms.
I know Gabe used those words to describe how absurd the lead character can act in a single player game, and I assume he didn't use those words out of malice, but yes he could have used a better choice of words given his position. Regardless even though I am happy to see people here not tolerate this kind of speak and make a stand against this, this is not a situation that merits it. The reaction here is blown out of proportion because there have been situations that are much more hateful and insensitive than this found practically anywhere(even on GAF) and I barely seen any reaction like this, but as soon as someone of stance like Gabe says it (and not even an offensive statement really) everyone gets up in arms.
Lufiaddict
Member
If he had said this:
Personally, I do think so, since I'm under the impression that the problem stems from the word 'retard'. Maybe this word was absolutely neutral when it was introduced in the English language, but one can't deny that it has acquired a negative connotation through (mis)usage.
Or maybe this (if you want to keep the medical connotation of the word 'retard'):
Would have it been less disturbing? This question is for everyone, but I'd particularly like to know Gartooth's opinion.
Personally, I do think so, since I'm under the impression that the problem stems from the word 'retard'. Maybe this word was absolutely neutral when it was introduced in the English language, but one can't deny that it has acquired a negative connotation through (mis)usage.
I think they are all fine. He probably should have avoided using 'retarded' and 'autistic' in the first place given how seriously people treat those words, but the context in which he used them was to describe the actions of a lead character in a video game, rather than some kind of hate speech directed towards autistic/retarded people, at least that is my take from it.
Basically it is ok if he uses the words to describe the actions of characters. (such and such acts in a way that shows signs of autism) What I wouldn't be ok with, is if he equated how video game characters act to actual people with these conditions.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I like how we were equally horrified but at different parts of his post.
Welp, that's pretty much that then I guess. Thanks for your comments, Gartooth.
Lufiaddict
Member
I see your point. Thanks for replying.
SketchTheArtist
Member
I hope GTTV uses this thread in their arguments.
graywolf323
Member
or if Kotaku did it
Midnight Bliss
Member
I've always felt HL2 was just a physics tech-demo to showcase what the source engine was capable of for superior developers to make use with. Considering HL1 didn't age well, not sure what Newell has actually done besides throw a lot of money around and make stupid statements on the internet.
I actually had to ctrl+f to see if he said what the title claims he did. Kinda funny but terrible at the same time. I also can't remember the last time I've played a good multiplayer game online or offline in recent years. Modern multiplayer games are ruined by corruption and greed because video games as a business is bad for the quality of video games. And progress is limited and severed by wasted potential. See hats, Minecraft, Cash shops, LoL, WoW, D3, wider audience, EA, Activision.
I actually had to ctrl+f to see if he said what the title claims he did. Kinda funny but terrible at the same time. I also can't remember the last time I've played a good multiplayer game online or offline in recent years. Modern multiplayer games are ruined by corruption and greed because video games as a business is bad for the quality of video games. And progress is limited and severed by wasted potential. See hats, Minecraft, Cash shops, LoL, WoW, D3, wider audience, EA, Activision.
It's one of better examples of people not understanding multiple definitions or context (Retard =/= Retarded).
Word retarded is a slang for acting randomly or stupid. Or maybe everyone here got offended because they act retarded in singleplayer games when their friends are along, which is why there is a lot of hate in this thread.
It really has aged pretty well.
The first Half-Life set the standard for first-person storytelling. No other shooter had attempted to set their games in an environment with the level of realism that Valve brought to the table; a world stocked with other characters that respond to you and areas that existed to present story instead of action. But we can see by these comments that Valve has reached their limits in terms of iterating on that concept. I think all singleplayer protagonists face the same issues Gabe talked about, but Valve's games expose that more obviously than most. In multiplayer, that sort of thing doesn't matter at all.
I think singleplayer games can still tell stories even with 'autistic' protagonists, but it's something you have to work around. Half-Life 1 actually does a better job of this than its sequel, because character interaction with Gordon is much more limited. People only talk to you to point you from place to place. With Half-Life 2's gated rooms and side characters in need of development, the protagonists' social deficiencies become more obvious.
The other way to address it is to remove more control from the player as, say, The Walking Dead does. If you only let the player act in ways that make sense, they can't do anything that would go off-script.
That, or we go back to the days of Doom with arbitrary environments and color-coded card keys, built for nothing but the game. That'd be an ironic twist.
jim-jam bongs
Member
malingenie
Member
This thread keeps on giving! My mind has opened a lot towards the PC end of things since I came to the United States of America, but I still see uproars like this incredibly surprising. The difference between the title of the thread (a funny description of what singleplayer games' heroes are like) and what it has become about (linguistic/moralistic debate) was unexpected for me!
dragonfart28
Banned
A few of us were saying this as well.
Seems to be the concluding point in this dilemma.
Calling someone a "retard" and using a metaphor that includes mental retardation as a condition are different things. You fellows ought to read more closely and put words and sentences into context.
As a Special Ed teacher, I know I find my students can have huge difficulties with that task, but as members of the general population, y'all are held to a higher standard of thoughtfulness.
As a Special Ed teacher, I know I find my students can have huge difficulties with that task, but as members of the general population, y'all are held to a higher standard of thoughtfulness.
*snap* LOL
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Coldblooded.
la flama blanca
Banned
Dat Ether.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
P.C. Gamers peeved at un-P.C. words from purveyor of PC games
SlipperyFishes
Banned
A really poor choice of words, he might have thought that they would be accepted by the audience in the room but forgot that the outside world would have a listen.
Wrong words, wrong audience (is there even a right one for that?)
Regardless of the framing, I took it to mean an example where player agency is guided in single player games by way of handholding, not allowing you to break the constraints of having a voice in the world, having a hidden, greater intelligence than the world can see. Think of ultimately having little control over what you can actually do, or how they act in a physical capacity - wanting to express yourself, but you can't.
This is hard to phrase.
Wrong words, wrong audience (is there even a right one for that?)
Regardless of the framing, I took it to mean an example where player agency is guided in single player games by way of handholding, not allowing you to break the constraints of having a voice in the world, having a hidden, greater intelligence than the world can see. Think of ultimately having little control over what you can actually do, or how they act in a physical capacity - wanting to express yourself, but you can't.
This is hard to phrase.
I think I grok what he was going for, but it was really clumsily worded.
Following this chain of logic, you must have been swaddled in a belfry.
Give the controller to your spouse. What does the main character do?
Hell what do you do? Run to the corner and stare at textures.
Let retard go. Seriously. Words in the past have lost their power. By enshrining retard you're helping it retain status and creating a new taboo.
We've already gone through cretin, imbecile, moron, and idiot and none of those words have any power because there was a medical replacement.
Let retard go. I want a new word.
Hell what do you do? Run to the corner and stare at textures.
Let retard go. Seriously. Words in the past have lost their power. By enshrining retard you're helping it retain status and creating a new taboo.
We've already gone through cretin, imbecile, moron, and idiot and none of those words have any power because there was a medical replacement.
Let retard go. I want a new word.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Lets try yoritomo then.
clumsy words, i don't believe there was any malice but definitely clumsy.
clumsy words, i don't believe there was any malice but definitely clumsy.