Support NeoGAF

[bennyc12]

It blows me away that people are trying to defend what Gaben said. It was in poor taste. He shouldn't have said it.

He was not using the terms in any clinical sense. He doesn't have a staff of autistic or mentally-challenged game testers working for him. There are no criteria on how to make games for the autistic or mentally challenged. His statement was a crude and inaccurate approximation of autism and retardation. Using "autistic" or "retarded" in the stead of "simple" or "unintelligible" is simply offensive.

Let me give you an example: There are varying degrees of autism and retardation. Say, if I'm autistic, my gaming skills may be on par with or exceed the gaming skills of someone who is not autistic. Someone who suffers from mental retardation may also be proficient in video games. It's akin to an automaker presenting a line of cars with advanced safety features saying "we design vehicles with women in mind," hinting that women are perhaps fragile, or poor drivers. Some women are poor drivers, but it's unacceptable to say women in general are poor drivers.

Point is, Gabe Newell inaccurately reduced a segment of the population (without exceptions) to a concept of simplicity. That's stereotyping.

 

[PBalfredo]

I don't really have an issue with the words he used, but I have issue with the way he used them. He's using them in a derogatory manner to suggest that the main protagonist being "retarded and autistic" is a bad thing.

It's not about being politically correct, it's about not being a dick.

Quick aside here, do you mean to say the condition of being retarded or autistic ever isn't a bad thing?

Note I'm talking about the condition being bad; not saying retarded people are bad people for being retarded.

 

[alexandros]

Again, I have to ask, if this was such a matter of fact, clinical description, then why did the audience laugh?

Because they are idiots who think the very word "retarded" is somehow funny. The same audience also laughed when Newell likened the wireless streaming of Miracast and Project Shield to a very long HDMI cable. Why did they laugh? I really have no idea.

People should just watch the video and take in the whole segment before jumping to conclusions. There really is nothing there.

 

[la flama blanca]

It blows me away that people are trying to defend what Gaben said. It was in poor taste. He shouldn't have said it.

He was not using the terms in any clinical sense. He doesn't have a staff of autistic or mentally-challenged game testers working for him. There are no criteria on how to make games for the autistic or mentally challenged. His statement was a crude and inaccurate approximation of autism and retardation. Using "autistic" or "retarded" in the stead of "simple" or "unintelligible" is simply offensive.

Let me give you an example: There are varying degrees of autism and retardation. Say, if I'm autistic, my gaming skills may be on par with or exceed the gaming skills of someone who is not autistic. Someone who suffers from mental retardation may also be proficient in video games. It's akin to an automaker presenting a line of cars with advanced safety features saying "we design vehicles with women in mind," hinting that women are perhaps fragile, or poor drivers. Some women are poor drivers, but it's unacceptable to say women in general are poor drivers.

Point is, Gabe Newell inaccurately reduced a segment of the population (without exceptions) to a concept of simplicity. That's stereotyping.

Gabe Newell is a human being, confirmed.

 

[tranciful]

It blows me away that people are trying to defend what Gaben said. It was in poor taste. He shouldn't have said it.

He was not using the terms in any clinical sense. He doesn't have a staff of autistic or mentally-challenged game testers working for him. There are no criteria on how to make games for the autistic or mentally challenged. His statement was a crude and inaccurate approximation of autism and retardation. Using "autistic" or "retarded" in the stead of "simple" or "unintelligible" is simply offensive.

Let me give you an example: There are varying degrees of autism and retardation. Say, if I'm autistic, my gaming skills may be on par with or exceed the gaming skills of someone who is not autistic. Someone who suffers from mental retardation may also be proficient in video games. It's akin to an automaker presenting a line of cars with advanced safety features saying "we design vehicles with women in mind," hinting that women are perhaps fragile, or poor drivers. Some women are poor drivers, but it's unacceptable to say women in general are poor drivers.

Point is, Gabe Newell inaccurately reduced a segment of the population (without exceptions) to a concept of simplicity. That's stereotyping.

You assume he's talking about the player (actual human) when he was talking about the character (virtual human who can only interact with the virtual world in limited ways because of the limitations of video games).

 

[bennyc12]

The name of a medical condition, but I guess you're too ignorant to know that?

Wrong. "Mental retardation" is the name of a medical condition. "Retard" is (though wasn't always) a derogatory term. Look it up.

 

[sflufan]

Quick aside here, do you mean to say the condition of being retarded or autistic ever isn't a bad thing?

Note I'm talking about the condition being bad; not saying retarded people are bad people for being retarded.

Exactly.

If given a choice, would an individual CHOOSE to have either of these conditions? Would they want to remove these conditions from a loved one?

If the answer to the first question is "no" and the answer to the second is "yes", then we can conclude that neither of these conditions is desirable and are therefore "bad" things.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I think it's easy to laugh at the term "retarded" or casually dismiss it when you have no real frame of reference on what it's like to have lived for 30+ years with someone who's "mentally retarded" (intellectually, cognitively and developmental disabled.) or provide support (bathing, wiping, feeding, medication.). Then watch your parents give up everything in order to provide in-home care. 24/7. 7 days a week. 365/year. Not one day off. Ever.

Then witness the stares of people when you want to do something as simple as take her to play in a park and watch others scurry away. Or deal with the stares when you want to take her to her favorites restaurant for her birthday. She may not be able to notice, but I do.

Or have to beg the security guard in the ER that she's seriously mentally disabled and needs a family member to be with her at all times or she's going to flip out and please waive the visiting hours rule...

Dealing with a situation like that with a family member that needs that type of constant care is daunting. Shitty comments by people that don't know wtf it's really like is irritating.

Am I particularly offended by Gabe's comments? I've heard them before. My feelings on it are like irritated skin that's developed a hard callous to protect it. It just reaffirms how out of touch many people are about mental disabilities.

Honestly, what hurts more than anything are people that won't even try to put themselves in someone else's shoes when concern about that word's brought up.

The problem is that intended or not it's a very subtle statement about how society regards such people. Their disability shouldn't be used as a punchline.

 

[Shaneus]

It's still insulting to many regardless and was un-needed. Imagine if a company that isn't particularly liked such as EA would have said this? This thread would have been at 100+ pages at this point.

I still don't see why it's considered insulting. Did he say that retarded people suck? That people with autism are lesser human beings?

No.

He implied that within the context of a game world where everyone is "normal", the protagonist is usually restricted to interactions in a similar way as someone with autism or mental retardation would in the real world. That's not insulting anyone, it's a fact that people diagnosed with those conditions have issues. If you take issue with anything, take issue from the literal meanings of those words (taken from Wikipedia):

Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior.

(Redirected from Retard) Mental retardation (MR) is a generalized disorder appearing before adulthood, characterized by significantly impaired cognitive functioning and deficits in two or more adaptive behaviors. It has historically been defined as an Intelligence Quotient score under 70. Once focused almost entirely on cognition, the definition now includes both a component relating to mental functioning and one relating to individuals' functional skills in their environment.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Using "autistic" or "retarded" in the stead of "simple" or "unintelligible"...

I'd agree if this was the case. But why do you think it is? Why can't treating the main character as developmentally retarded mean explaining things earnestly and without cynicism?

 

[bennyc12]

You assume he's talking about the player when he was talking about the character.

Doesn't change the argument whatsoever.

 

[moe6142]

FUCK YOU

 

[tranciful]

Doesn't change the argument whatsoever.

Well, it actually debunks your argument completely. It has nothing to do with making games for autistic customers, which is what you argued.

 

[mavs]

Doesn't change the argument whatsoever.

It invalidates all of it but the last sentence, which is really all you needed to say in the first place.

 

[cicero]

And if there were any autistic people in the audience?

Can you see how someone describing a character as autistic followed by a bunch of laughing could be hurtful?

No one is calling to remove all color from the English language. Just try to be decent person and choose your words a little better.

You are calling for the politically correct application of words based on whether or not ANY group or person might find them "hurtful". You are framing the issue as one of being a "decent person" or not. You have to completely remove the word from the obvious context and intent on Gabe's part, and the simple fact that it was a definitive use of that word, and suddenly make this about potential hurt feelings. As if that is actually the only "decent" legitimate basis or standards for any speech whatsoever. What that does is effectively curtail and restrain public discourse by creating special protected words, that would be ever-expanding in their scope, for special protected groups that are offended, or might possibly take offense.

Personally, I prefer free and open speech where public figures are allowed the ability to speak their minds without being restrained by BS ever shifting politically correct standards for speech. Will some people be "hurt" by such unrestrained speech? Of course. There will always be someone outraged, indignant, or "hurt" by just about anything. That isn't a legitimate reason to restrain it though.

 

[bennyc12]

I'd agree if this was the case. But why do you think it is? Why can't treating the main character as developmentally retarded mean explaining things earnestly and without cynicism?

The word "retard" has negative connotations. I don't think anyone can disagree with me on that front.

It doesn't follow that a person with autism or mental retardation must be explained things "earnestly and without cynicism." Again, that's reductive in the sense that you're saying that [as a demographic] the autistic and mentally handicapped cannot understand or follow directions/narrative without those directions/narratives being earnest and uncynical.

 

[la flama blanca]

Wrong. "Mental retardation" is the name of a medical condition. "Retard" is (though wasn't always) a derogatory term. Look it up.

And if Gabe intended it to be non offensive, wouldn't it not matter what the proper term was?

You're way too PC about this, god, this is why we have trophies for last place these days. Is it so awful when peoples feelings get hurt? Seriously come the fuck on.

 

[bennyc12]

Well, it actually debunks your argument completely. It has nothing to do with making games for autistic customers, which is what you argued.

The argument is that he's stereotyping. Still doesn't change that.

 

[bennyc12]

And if Gabe intended it to be non offensive, wouldn't it not matter what the proper term was?

You're way too PC about this, god, this is why we have trophies for last place these days. Is it so awful when peoples feelings get hurt? Seriously come the fuck on.

If you've done something wrong with the best of intentions, you've still done something wrong.

I never made a claim about the severity of his transgression. Only that it was wrong.

Oh, and he should apologize. Is it so awful when someone has to apologize?

 

[Baraka in the White House]

That's a lot of words about stuff that isn't Half Life 3, Gabe.

Get back to work.

Pretty much.

 

[Omega]

So do we put Half Life 3 in the same pile as The Last Guardian now?

I always had it there, but others seem to think there's a chance.

 

[la flama blanca]

If you've done something wrong with the best of intentions, you've still done something wrong.

And the world keeps spinning and nobody gives a flying fuck about those who focus on the negative and don't use any kind of adversity as a strength. This is the real world, there are no bumpers here.

 

[cicero]

The problem is that intended or not it's a very subtle statement about how society regards such people. Their disability shouldn't be used as a punchline.

The problem in this thread is that people, like you, are assuming that Gabe actually used it as some kind of punchline, ignoring the clear context of his comments and definitive use of the word. Maybe you could possibly detail out the proper limitations for the usage of those defined terms in everyday conversations. That, and show other words, not currently off-limits, that are allowable for use and that are as effective and in context for making his specific point.

 

[bennyc12]

And the world keeps spinning and nobody gives a flying fuck about those who focus on the negative and don't use any kind of adversity as a strength. This is the real world, there are no bumpers here.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

[Nome]

So do we put Half Life 3 in the same pile as The Last Guardian now?

I always had it there, but others seem to think there's a chance.

There's gameplay footage of Half Life 3?

 

[faceless007]

And the world keeps spinning and nobody gives a flying fuck about those who focus on the negative and don't use any kind of adversity as a strength. This is the real world, there are no bumpers here.

Some people obviously give many fucks about those people.

 

[Lingitiz]

So do we put Half Life 3 in the same pile as The Last Guardian now?

I always had it there, but others seem to think there's a chance.

Thing is, Valve has been pretty active since the last Half Life. Team Ico haven't done anything since SotC.

 

[Interfectum]

Everyone, lets take screenshots of our Origin game collection and send them to Gabe.

 

[la flama blanca]

Thank you for agreeing with me.

I totally agree with you for the most part, maybe what he said could be insensitive to some, but you can't come out and say it's wrong because that's simply subjective. Your focus on what he said being wrong is exactly what I'm opposed to because cherry picking someones words despite their motive or intention is just plain retarded.

 

[Hattori]

Gabe Newell douchebag confirmed.
(I still like your games though)

 

[cicero]

If you've done something wrong with the best of intentions, you've still done something wrong.

I never made a claim about the severity of his transgression. Only that it was wrong.

Oh, and he should apologize. Is it so awful when someone has to apologize?

He did NOTHING wrong though. He has no reason to apologize. That some people find some speech offensive isn't proof of some kind of an inherent illegitimate nature to that speech. That is one of the reasons why there is such a thing as protected free speech, so even morally outraged and indignant members of any and all offended groups/individuals, or their preachy white knight defenders, can't legally restrain ANY speech that offends them.

 

[Arnie]

Leaning towards boycotting Valve

I laughed at this.

 

[SomeOneInaHat]

We need more people like Gabe.

"Brevity is the soul of wit"

 

[bennyc12]

He did NOTHING wrong though. He has no reason to apologize. That some people find some speech offensive isn't proof of some kind of an inherent illegitimate nature to that speech. That is one of the reasons why there is such a thing as protected free speech, so even morally outraged and indignant members of any and all offended groups/individuals, or their preachy white knight defenders, can't legally restrain ANY speech that offends them.

So by your logic, the fact that some people find racist language to be offensive, there "isn't some kind of an inherent illegitimate nature to that [racist] speech."

Also, legal ≠ right

 

[robovanburen]

By the time this scandal boils over, Gabe Newell's reputation will be so tarnished that he'll have to find a job in an industry completely unrelated to mental health. Game development, maybe.

 

[Giggzy]

Meh, I don't find anything wrong with what he said. Sensitivity these days... We just love to stir drama.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The problem in this thread is that people, like you, are assuming that Gabe actually used it as some kind of punchline, ignoring the clear context of his comments and definitive use of the word. Maybe you could possibly detail out the proper limitations for the usage of those defined terms in everyday conversations. That, and show other words, not currently off-limits, that are allowable for use and that are as effective and in context for making his specific point.

Like I said, it's easy to have that attitude when you haven't dealt with the reality of mental "retardation" specifically the social stigma that such people often endure.

I know I know...context.

 

[la flama blanca]

So by your logic, the fact that some people find racist language to be offensive, there "isn't some kind of an inherent illegitimate nature to that [racist] speech."

Also, legal ≠ right

This is what Evilore was talking about.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

By the time this scandal boils over, Gabe Newell's reputation will be so tarnished that he'll have to find a job in an industry completely unrelated to mental health. Game development, maybe.

To be honest I always thought that game development was a form of mental illness.

 

[Deuterium]

The issue here is relatively simple.

The man is the head of a large Company, and has extensive experience in public speaking as well as giving interviews.

He never should have used his (poor) choice of words...and it is basically inexcusable for someone with aforementioned experience. I expect he will shortly issue a retraction / public apology, if he hasn't already.

 

[la flama blanca]

The issue here is relatively simple.

The man is the head of a large Company, and has extensive experience in public speaking as well as giving interviews.

He never should have used his (poor) choice of words...and it is basically inexcusable for someone with aforementioned experience. I expect he will shortly issue a retraction / public apology, if he hasn't already.

"has extensive experience in public speaking as well as giving interviews." Source?
And he won't because he is awesome. Eat it.

 

[cicero]

So by your logic, the fact that some people find racist language to be offensive, there "isn't some kind of an inherent illegitimate nature to that [racist] speech."

Also, legal ≠ right

I didn't state or imply that merely because it was legal it was right. And nothing you said here rebuts my specific comment: "That some people find some speech offensive isn't proof of some kind of an inherent illegitimate nature to that speech.". Since when has the issue of racist speech been debated solely on the grounds of the offensive nature of that speech instead of the inherent illogical and illegitimate nature of racism itself? Speech doesn't inherently and immediately become illegitimate because someone is offended by it.

So by your logic, the supposed offensive nature of Gabe's comments are legitimately analogous in some way to racist speech? And if we are talking about logic, your ridiculous and inane voiced standards for speech, which I and so many others find offensive, should be equally restricted or restrained socially, simply because it offends someone.

 

[Deuterium]

"has extensive experience in public speaking as well as giving interviews." Source?
And he won't because he is awesome. Eat it.

LOL, are you for real? Very classy post.

How long has Newell been the leader of Valve? How many internal and external presentations do you think he has had to make, not only to his peers, but to an extended audience, over the years. And as far as published interviews, I think that would be pretty easy to research.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

The issue here is relatively simple.

The man is the head of a large Company, and has extensive experience in public speaking as well as giving interviews.

He never should have used his (poor) choice of words...and it is basically inexcusable for someone with aforementioned experience. I expect he will shortly issue a retraction / public apology, if he hasn't already.

What words should he have used?

 

[Deuterium]

What words should he have used?

I think he could have gotten his meaning across with a different analogy or metaphor. In particular, I am surprised by the rather insensitive word choice...as it is quite possible there are employees working at Valve who have handicapped children, or family members.

 

[cicero]

What words should he have used?

Don't forget, any words they pick now probably will become "offensive" or illegitimate in the future, so he would have to prepare for that as well.

 

[cicero]

I think he could have gotten his meaning across with a different analogy or metaphor. In particular, I am surprised by the rather insensitive word choice...as it is quite possible there are employees working at Valve who have handicapped children, or family members.

Except that "rather insensitive word" has a dictionary definition and was used properly and in context. So what if there are employees working at Valve who have handicapped children, or family members. At what point is there any limit to limiting speech when the only standard is that it should be limited if it offends ANYBODY or ANY GROUP?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I think he could have gotten his meaning across with a different analogy or metaphor. In particular, I am surprised by the rather insensitive word choice...as it is quite possible there are employees working at Valve who have handicapped children, or family members.

Well, do you have any suggestions though? Can you think of a more effective analogy which conveys the same meaning he intended without being offensive?

 

[la flama blanca]

LOL, are you for real? Very classy post.

How long has Newell been the leader of Valve? How many internal and external presentations do you think he has had to make, not only to his peers, but to an extended audience, over the years. And as far as published interviews, I think that would be pretty easy to research.

I wouldn't equate running a company and having to speak to your employees or give presentations to being an expert in public speaking which you're claiming he is. Also, Gaben doesn't really give that many published interviews and while he does speak very well you can clearly see a tiny bit of timidness in his composure. The point is, he doesn't have to apologize because people like you are just making something out of nothing.

 

[gutter_trash]

Is this why Gordon Freeman doesn't talk?

oh snap