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[jim-jam bongs]

oh snap

Yes "oh snap" indeed. Garry totally wasn't talking about Valve's own games when he was discussing the heuristics aspect of designing singleplayer and multiplayer experiences, he was generalising based on some stuff he overheard at E3 one year.

 

[Deuterium]

Except that "rather insensitive word" has a dictionary definition and was used properly and in context. So what if there are employees working at Valve who have handicapped children, or family members. At what point is there any limit to limiting speech when the only standard is that it should be limited if it offends ANYBODY or ANY GROUP?

This isn't a Free Speech issue. Gabe exercised his right to Free Speech...and I completely support that. All I am saying is that, in my opinion, it is dissapointing that a person in his position and experience did not have the presence of mind to realize his particular analogy/example/metaphor might be uniquely offensive to a large group of people. Am I demanding he apologize. No. Do I think he will realize that an apology or explanation may be warranted (even if it is purely politically or financially motivated)...yes.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

This isn't a Free Speech issue. Gabe exercised his right to Free Speech...and I completely support that. All I am saying is that, in my opinion, it is dissapointing that a person in his position and experience did not have the presence of mind to realize his particular analogy/example/metaphor might be uniquely offensive to a large group of people. Am I demanding he apologize. No. Do I think he will realize that an apology or explanation may be warranted (even if it is purely politically or financially motivated)...yes.

Can you please answer my question? How could he have conveyed that same meaning with a different analogy?

 

[daviyoung]

Context seems to be an offensive word for a lot of people

 

[bennyc12]

Except that "rather insensitive word" has a dictionary definition and was used properly and in context. So what if there are employees working at Valve who have handicapped children, or family members. At what point is there any limit to limiting speech when the only standard is that it should be limited if it offends ANYBODY or ANY GROUP?

Again, apply this to racial slurs. Why isn't it socially acceptable to use terms that are offensive to a specific race?

If I referred to African Americans as "negroes," I'd be using the correct dictionary definition. Though doing so would be inappropriate.

You're making this too easy, guy.

 

[Artanisix]

Like I said, it's easy to have that attitude when you haven't dealt with the reality of mental "retardation" specifically the social stigma that such people often endure.

I know I know...context.

/roll eyes.

I used to be a teacher's assistant for a class of severely mentally disabled and challenged high school children. I've seen how tough it is for them to interact with mentally healthy people. It would piss me off to no end when some snarky high school kid would whisper at his friends and point out "oh watch out guys, retards coming through!" when my students had done nothing wrong other than be themselves. Teaching and nurturing these kids was some of the most meaningful work I ever did.

The difference with Gabe and the high school kids is that he did not use retarded and autistic in a derogatory manner towards retarded or autistic people. He used very precise language that made it very easy to understand what he was talking about. People getting upset over Gabe's choice of words really need to take a step back and understand the context of the situation.

 

[bennyc12]

Can you please answer my question? How could he have conveyed that same meaning with a different analogy?

He didn't need to use analogy. He could have stated the qualities the analogy referred to.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Again, apply this to racial slurs. Why isn't it socially acceptable to use terms that are offensive to a specific race?

If I referred to African Americans as "negroes," I'd be using the correct dictionary definition. Though doing so would be inappropriate.

You're making this too easy, guy.

Yeah fuck the United Negro College Fund, those racist fuckers.

He didn't need to use analogy. He could have stated the qualities the analogy referred to.

Why? His analogy conveyed exactly the meaning he intended, and his use of the words was in no way pejorative.

 

[bennyc12]

/roll eyes.
The difference with Gabe and the high school kids is that he did not use retarded or autistic in a derogatory manner. He used very precise language that made it very easy to understand what he was talking about. People getting upset over Gabe's choice of words really need to take a step back and understand the context of the situation.

He did not intentionally use it in a derogatory manner.

 

[daviyoung]

Again, apply this to racial slurs. Why isn't it socially acceptable to use terms that are offensive to a specific race?

If I referred to African Americans as "negroes," I'd be using the correct dictionary definition. Though doing so would be inappropriate.

You're making this too easy, guy.

there is a Spanish record label called Blanco Y Negro, I don't know how they live with themselves

 

[bennyc12]

Yeah fuck the United Negro College Fund, those racist fuckers.

Not sure if you're trolling, or if you're actually serious.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Not sure if you're trolling, or if you're actually serious.

Oh I'm quite serious about the fact that context is important.

 

[ShirAhava]

Gonna add this to my big pile of reasons not to support valve (other than the steam platform)

 

[bennyc12]

Oh I'm quite serious about the fact that context is important.

The stereotyped remarks about the autistic and mentally handicapped provide plenty of context.

 

[cicero]

This isn't a Free Speech issue. Gabe exercised his right to Free Speech...and I completely support that. All I am saying is that, in my opinion, it is dissapointing that a person in his position and experience did not have the presence of mind to realize his particular analogy/example/metaphor might be uniquely offensive to a large group of people. Am I demanding he apologize. No. Do I think he will realize that an apology or explanation may be warranted (even if it is purely politically or financially motivated)...yes.

My comment was: "At what point is there any limit to limiting speech when the only standard is that it should be limited if it offends ANYBODY or ANY GROUP?". I wasn't framing this as being about legal restrictions on speech, but just limiting speech in general. My comment still stands. At what point is there any limit to that?

It is not disappointing, because Gabe didn't do anything disappointing. Only if you frame this issue in politically correct terms and ideals does this issue become relevant to what you are saying. Why should Gabe, or anyone else, walk around on eggshells, because something he might say might be unintentionally misconstrued, or intentionally misconstrued, into something that was obviously not contextual to anything he was saying? Why should he conform to some idiotic and inane politically correct social pressure regarding entirely innocuous and innocent words that he used, or frantically be concerned about future mistakes that could occur?

I posted this in reply to someone else, I see it as generally applying to your comments as well.

You are calling for the politically correct application of words based on whether or not ANY group or person might find them "hurtful". You are framing the issue as one of being a "decent person" or not. You have to completely remove the word from the obvious context and intent on Gabe's part, and the simple fact that it was a definitive use of that word, and suddenly make this about potential hurt feelings. As if that is actually the only "decent" legitimate basis or standards for any speech whatsoever. What that does is effectively curtail and restrain public discourse by creating special protected words, that would be ever-expanding in their scope, for special protected groups that are offended, or might possibly take offense.

Personally, I prefer free and open speech where public figures are allowed the ability to speak their minds without being restrained by BS ever shifting politically correct standards for speech. Will some people be "hurt" by such unrestrained speech? Of course. There will always be someone outraged, indignant, or "hurt" by just about anything. That isn't a legitimate reason to restrain it though.

 

[daviyoung]

The stereotyped remarks about the autistic and mentally handicapped provide plenty of context.

your stereotyping?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

The stereotyped remarks about the autistic and mentally handicapped provide plenty of context.

What stereotyped remarks? Specific examples, taken from what he said, of how his context makes his analogy offensive or derogatory.

 

[Artanisix]

He did not intentionally use it in a derogatory manner.

He did not use it in a derogatory manner, period.

 

[la flama blanca]

The stereotyped remarks about the autistic and mentally handicapped provide plenty of context.

Looks like you're the one making the connection, do you have a problem with the handicapped?

 

[Deuterium]

Can you please answer my question? How could he have conveyed that same meaning with a different analogy?

Hello Jim-Jam,

Perhaps he could have compared the single-player protagonist/avatar to a "philosophical zombie", which is a term used in cognitive neuroscience. Or, he might have simply described the protaganist as being "dumb as a stump".

 

[cicero]

Again, apply this to racial slurs. Why isn't it socially acceptable to use terms that are offensive to a specific race?

If I referred to African Americans as "negroes," I'd be using the correct dictionary definition. Though doing so would be inappropriate.

You're making this too easy, guy.

You might try actually responding to my response to you instead of commenting as if I didn't. Perhaps you missed it?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47346709&postcount=1349

So by your logic, the fact that some people find racist language to be offensive, there "isn't some kind of an inherent illegitimate nature to that [racist] speech."

Also, legal ≠ right

I didn't state or imply that merely because it was legal it was right. And nothing you said here rebuts my specific comment: "That some people find some speech offensive isn't proof of some kind of an inherent illegitimate nature to that speech.". Since when has the issue of racist speech been debated solely on the grounds of the offensive nature of that speech instead of the inherent illogical and illegitimate nature of racism itself? Speech doesn't inherently and immediately become illegitimate because someone is offended by it.

So by your logic, the supposed offensive nature of Gabe's comments are legitimately analogous in some way to racist speech? And if we are talking about logic, your ridiculous and inane voiced standards for speech, which I and so many others find offensive, should be equally restricted or restrained socially, simply because it offends someone.

 

[adixon]

That's...pretty bad. I mean what is he trying to say, 'retarded' or 'autistic' people are bad? Unlike-able? Come on gaben! Get your act together!

Also what's wrong with movies about retarded or autistic people? Hell even an action movie with a retarded or autistic lead role would be interesting.

Wow, was trying to catch up on this thread but I just can't do it... truly amazing how many different bad interpretations people are managing to get from this sentence. Most of which have nothing to do with single player game design at all!

 

[daviyoung]

Perhaps he could have compared the single-player protagonist/avatar to a "philosophical zombie", which is a term used in cognitive neuroscience. Or, he might have simply described the protaganist as being "dumb as a stump".

unfortunately "dumb" is a minefield too

 

[Shaneus]

The stereotyped remarks about the autistic and mentally handicapped provide plenty of context.

He didn't use them in terms of stereotypes. He used them in terms of their literal meaning:

Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior.

(Redirected from Retard) Mental retardation (MR) is a generalized disorder appearing before adulthood, characterized by significantly impaired cognitive functioning and deficits in two or more adaptive behaviors. It has historically been defined as an Intelligence Quotient score under 70. Once focused almost entirely on cognition, the definition now includes both a component relating to mental functioning and one relating to individuals' functional skills in their environment.

 

[cicero]

He did not intentionally use it in a derogatory manner.

And you are privy to his real intents, how exactly? We are arguing based on the obvious context of his comments and his clear definitive usage of the words. You are arguing based entirely on the possible offense that could be taken by others as the underlying basis for what should be considered derogatory. That despite there being a literal dictionary definition for these words specifically describing something. There is no limit to your conveniently applied standard other than that someone, anyone, has taken an offense at something, thusly making any legitimate use of a dictionary definition illegitimate and derogatory.

Bravo.

 

[Deuterium]

unfortunately "dumb" is a minefield too

That was why I was careful to link the state of being "dumb" with an inanimate object. And no offense to trees...as a stump is no longer a living tree, and hence, inanimate.

<< Insert Ralph Fiennes scene from "In Bruges" >>

 

[adixon]

That was why I was careful to link the state of being "dumb" with an inanimate object. And no offense to trees...as a stump is no longer a living tree, and hence, inanimate.

<< Insert Ralph Fiennes scene from "In Bruges >>

Yes, but you are perhaps forgetting that that stump is some living tree's ancestor, are you not sir.

 

[daviyoung]

That was why I was careful to link the state of being "dumb" with an inanimate object. And no offense to trees...as a stump is no longer a living tree, and hence, inanimate.

<< Insert Ralph Fiennes scene from "In Bruges >>

but being dumb is a human condition, so it's identical to autism (a human condition) being linked to an inanimate object (a character)

 

[Joe Lee]

Well this escalated quickly.

 

[cicero]

unfortunately "dumb" is a minefield too

Indeed it is!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dumb

dumb: 1. lacking intelligence or good judgment; stupid; dull-witted. 2. lacking the power of speech (often offensive when applied to humans): a dumb animal.

 

[Deuterium]

but being dumb is a human condition, so it's identical to autism (a human condition) being linked to an inanimate object (a character)

Except that acting or doing something "dumb" is not, in and of itself, indicative of having a general mental impairment. Intelligent people (such as Gabe) do dumb things all the time.

Heck, I myself do at least three dumb things before breakfest each day.

 

[cicero]

Except that acting or doing something "dumb" is not, in and of itself, indicative of having a general mental impairment. Intelligent people (such as Gabe) do dumb things all the time.

I, myself, do at least three dumb things before breakfest each day.

And at least one thing after lunch. *cough* breakfast *cough*

EDIT: I do like "breakfest" better though. It would make sitting down to eat a burrito even more of a party than it already is.

 

[Metroid In A Glass Tube]

In all fairness to Gabe, he kind of physically looks like the ones he was slandering.

 

[Lulubop]

In all fairness to Gabe, he kind of physically looks like the ones he was slandering.

You can't be serious.

 

[la flama blanca]

In all fairness to Gabe, he kind of physically looks like the ones he was slandering.

What have you done.

 

[Metroid In A Glass Tube]

You can't be serious.

Need I say more?

 

[daviyoung]

I was going to reply to you Deuterium, but I feel like a new ride has started and I want to get on it

we shall postpone this for another day

 

[Liseda]

Well this escalated quickly.

No shit, I can't actually believe that this thread is over 25 pages now.

 

[Deuterium]

And at least one thing after lunch. *cough* breakfast *cough*

EDIT: I do like "breakfest" better though. It would make sitting down to eat a burrito even more of a party than it already is.

LOL, I never said I was limited to three (3) dumb actions during the course of the day...as my misspelling of breakfast aptly demonstrates.

 

[VVIS]

I don't see the problem, guys.

 

[Acrylic7]

whoop de do, he said something stupid that he shouldn't have said. This happens to everyone at least once in their life.

 

[colt45joe]

i thought it was weird what he said. i didnt understand why he said it. it came out of nowhere. then i thought that maybe he was talking about/poking fun at his main character in the half life series.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Hello Jim-Jam,

Perhaps he could have compared the single-player protagonist/avatar to a "philosophical zombie", which is a term used in cognitive neuroscience. Or, he might have simply described the protaganist as being "dumb as a stump".

The former is too obscure to be effective, the latter isn't really what he was even saying. It conveys the basic concept, but the issue is one of communication and comprehension rather than intellect.

 

[rakanishu]

He's talking about the intrinsic disconnect between the player and the character, which can make the character look like retarded and autistic within the context of the game world moments.

Should have been first reply. Maybe the haters in here would get it. Stop getting offended by words just because you don't understand the context.

 

[Cyborg]

Gabe is eating to much burgers it causes his brain to act sttupid

 

[fse]

Wow people on here overreact to the littlest things...

edit: and now fat gabe jokes? ugh.

 

[Apath]

The word "retard" has negative connotations. I don't think anyone can disagree with me on that front.

It doesn't follow that a person with autism or mental retardation must be explained things "earnestly and without cynicism." Again, that's reductive in the sense that you're saying that [as a demographic] the autistic and mentally handicapped cannot understand or follow directions/narrative without those directions/narratives being earnest and uncynical.

All words that describe/reference someone with a mental disability have a negative connotation. It is impossible to sugar coat it. See: Special.

 

[AkuMifune]

The former is too obscure to be effective, the latter isn't really what he was even saying. It conveys the basic concept, but the issue is one of communication and comprehension rather than intellect.

Semantics. He could have easily described the features of autism he was referring to specifically without dragging derogatory terms into it. Socially awkward, limited ability for human interactions, obesity, whatever he meant.

It's still more of a dumb analogy than offensive.

 

[Lufiaddict]

(Disclaimer: I didn't read most of the >1300 posts that preceed this one... sorry if I'm beating a dead horse)
I immediately found the quote offensive. Now I'm trying to determine what gave me that feeling, and I think it all comes from the word 'retarded', because it's so often used as an insult. The wikipedia article on mental retardation touches this subject:

Retarded comes from the Latin retardare, "to make slow, delay, keep back, or hinder," so mental retardation means the same as mentally delayed. The term was recorded in 1426 as a "fact or action of making slower in movement or time." The first record of retarded in relation to being mentally slow was in 1895. The term retarded was used to replace terms like idiot, moron, and imbecile because retarded was not (then) a derogatory term. By the 1960s, however, the term had taken on a partially derogatory meaning as well. The noun retard is particularly seen as pejorative; as of 2010, the Special Olympics, Best Buddies and over 100 other organizations are striving to eliminate the use of the "r-word" (analogous to the "n-word") in everyday conversation.

Now, when I read 'retarded and autistic', my first reaction is to be even more offended. I guess that in my mind, the pejorative connotation of 'retarded' taints 'autistic' because these two words are linked with 'and'. So it's as if he was using the word 'autistic' as an insult, which is shocking to me. Let's be clear, I'm sure that's not what he intended, I'm just trying to understand why I instinctively thought he did.

 

[Apath]

Semantics. He could have easily described the features of autism he was referring to specifically without dragging derogatory terms into it. Socially awkward, limited ability for human interactions, obesity, whatever he meant.

It's still more of a dumb analogy than offensive.

Is it really dumb if I could perfectly visualize and understand his point based on it?