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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"

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L

lastflowers

Banned
encephalon said:
"But I hate watching it, therefore I'd say it sucks" is just an illogical jump. It should end at "I hate watching it."

And how do you know? At face value, he's saying that Japanese games are of poor quality. That's what "Japanese games suck" means.
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Act like someone who interacts with other people and recognize hyperbole for what it is. Understand the sentiment behind it, and the reasoning behind the statement made. Then proceed to talk about how you disagree with his statement instead of supporting endless attacks on the man in public spaces. If don't support the latter, then hey...good on you for not being an idiot. If you think his statements justify the latter, then I disagree and shake my head in your general direction.

But I'm just being smug, and talking down to you. EDIT: And I aint perfect either. I'm a grade-a dumbass in many ways, and this could be one of 'em.

'you' might not be 'you'.

I think what he said was goddamn stupid in many ways, but he's been pretty entertaining in social media to the knee-jerk reactions.
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
encephalon said:
"But I hate watching it, therefore I'd say it sucks" is just an illogical jump. It should end at "I hate watching it."

And how do you know? At face value, he's saying that Japanese games are of poor quality. That's what "Japanese games suck" means.
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But his only metric for judging Japanese games is how much he's enjoyed recent ones he's played. Logic would state he hasn't played every Japanese game of the last 5 years. So when he says they suck, he's saying the ones he's played suck.

This is ultimately an issue of phrasing. It's obvious to me what he meant because common sense would tell you where he was coming from when he said the games sucked and what justification he could have for his opinion. If he had said "I haven't enjoyed any Japanese games recently" he'd be saying the exact same thing but in a manor people wouldn't be up in arms over.
 
S

SkyOdin

Member
Dave Meltzer said:
But his only metric for judging Japanese games is how much he's enjoyed recent ones he's played. Logic would state he hasn't played every Japanese game of the last 5 years. So when he says they suck, he's saying the ones he's played suck.

This is ultimately an issue of phrasing. It's obvious to me what he meant because common sense would tell you where he was coming from when he said the games sucked and what justification he could have for his opinion. If he had said "I haven't enjoyed any Japanese games recently" he'd be saying the exact same thing but in a manor people wouldn't be up in arms over.
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He is a game developer. One would presume that he should have a much better understanding of videogames and vocabulary of their design to be able to create a much more nuanced argument of why these games were bad. Just saying that he thinks a few games are bad isn't of interest to anyone, and is inappropriate for an industry forum such as the one where he originally made his remarks.

I think it is fair for people to expect better criticism that this. A good movie critic can break down a movie to the level of individual scene transitions and camera angles. There are a thousand different ways to substantiate an argument that a game is bad. Even casual forum discussion here on NeoGAF generally holds people to give some justification for their opinions. For example, the camera controls were clunky or the UI was obtrusive. The industry itself deserves that the developers themselves should hold their own discussion to a much higher level than casual forum discussions.
 
E

encephalon

Member
He maybe be using hyperbole, that doesn't mean he deserves the benefit of the doubt when making blanket statements. Furthermore, I can't help but feel that it's still an illogical jump. It requires you to assume that he's not suggesting what the word coming out his mouth mean. If someone says "I don't like _ people," no one is going to assume "oh well, I'm sure they're just judging the _ people they've met." It's entirely possible that he truly believes that Japanese games as a whole are of terrible quality. There are people out there who think that. If his opinion was more nuanced, he should have communicated that. It's not up to us to assume otherwise.
 
L

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Dave Meltzer said:
Not when you're talking about subjective things. If its my opinion that all dogs are secretly cats, I'm wrong. But if I think all jazz music ever created is awful, I can't be wrong.
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You can be wrong about subjective things too. Personal prejudices are still a subjective thing, and they can be wrong. If someone says: "xyz are the worst people in the world", he would be wrong, as there won't be any evidence to show that xyz are worse than any other nationality. Or something more severe like: "All mass murderers should be left alone to go around and continue murdering". Despite how it may sound to that person's deranged mind, it's a badly wrong position. As someone said earlier, only opinion that can't be wrong is someone's personal preference, and with a caveat that his preference only affects themselves (because if someone prefers to blow cigarette smoke onto a baby sitting in front of him, instead of blowing it away from the baby, he's still wrong).

These technicalities aside, the amount of uproar over Fish's comment is a bit unbelievable. It's got to be some kind of forced/feigned disgust, because his comments weren't *that* terrible. He seems more like a funny character than anything.
 
U

usea

Member
SkyOdin said:
He is a game developer. One would presume that he should have a much better understanding of videogames and vocabulary of their design to be able to create a much more nuanced argument of why these games were bad. Just saying that he thinks a few games are bad isn't of interest to anyone, and is inappropriate for an industry forum such as the one where he originally made his remarks.

I think it is fair for people to expect better criticism that this. A good movie critic can break down a movie to the level of individual scene transitions and camera angles. There are a thousand different ways to substantiate an argument that a game is bad. Even casual forum discussion here on NeoGAF generally holds people to give some justification for their opinions. For example, the camera controls were clunky or the UI was obtrusive. The industry itself deserves that the developers themselves should hold their own discussion to a much higher level than casual forum discussions.
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Artists aren't necessarily critics. In fact, the drive that pushes one to create art is often a disappointment or a lack of identification with the stuff that's out there already. Some artists have to tune out other work just to get things done. Not always, but it happens a lot.

Also, what he said wasn't an argument in a critique he wrote. It was an off the cuff remark in a wider context, live.
 
T

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
I love Fez. I love Phil Fish. If he spends another 5 years making a game, you can bet I will be interested. Especially if it's anywhere near as good as Fez.
 
diffusionx

diffusionx

Gold Member
Lord Error said:
These technicalities aside, the amount of uproar over Fish's comment is a bit unbelievable. It's got to be some kind of forced/feigned disgust, because his comments weren't *that* terrible. He seems more like a funny character than anything.
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I am still surprised people care, myself. He's wrong, but everybody's wrong about some stuff.

I thought that this thread was more of a perpetual Phil Fish says dumb shit thread.
 
V

Village

Member
Duffyside said:
Heh, "because of people like yoooouuuu." That's cute. I want to kiss that Kamiya face right now.

I didn't say he should buy it. I'm saying the delusion of self-importance by making a big stink of how "I won't buy your game, and you'll never get myyyyy money!" is laughable and childish. Really, he's making a big deal that Phil won't get, what, three dollars? Even less to Phil directly? Just don't buy it and move on.

Also, "unethical" DLC. Wow. Again, talk about not having any perspective.



"Phil's opinion on Japanese games is wrong because I like Japanese games."

Let me know when you realize how crazy this statement is.
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Some one commenting on something they may or may not want to purchase, and this thing is video game, on a video game forum. And they shouldn't comment because...
.....your whole statement is ass-backwards.
 
D

Durante

Member
SkyOdin said:
He is a game developer. One would presume that he should have a much better understanding of videogames and vocabulary of their design to be able to create a much more nuanced argument of why these games were bad. Just saying that he thinks a few games are bad isn't of interest to anyone, and is inappropriate for an industry forum such as the one where he originally made his remarks.

I think it is fair for people to expect better criticism that this. A good movie critic can break down a movie to the level of individual scene transitions and camera angles. There are a thousand different ways to substantiate an argument that a game is bad. Even casual forum discussion here on NeoGAF generally holds people to give some justification for their opinions. For example, the camera controls were clunky or the UI was obtrusive. The industry itself deserves that the developers themselves should hold their own discussion to a much higher level than casual forum discussions.
Click to expand...
I agree with this post.

I mean, it's fine to hold the (wrong) opinion that Japanese games generally "suck", but when speaking in a public forum from a position of authority it's perfectly understandable that there is an expectation of a somewhat higher level of discourse. If you speak in dumb, generalizing hyperbole people have a right to call you out on it.
 
Alec

Alec

Member
The Real Abed said:
I love Fez. I love Phil Fish. If he spends another 5 years making a game, you can bet I will be interested. Especially if it's anywhere near as good as Fez.
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+1. I have bought 4 copies of Fez on Steam to gift to various people, and I'll probably end up buying more than that.
 
R

Randy Monk

Member
Still can't believe some gamers have the opinion that recent Japanese games suck. Maybe they're implying JRPGs? What about fighting, sport, platforming, action, puzzle, beat em ups, etc?? Also is it a Japan vs western thing but what does western encompass? Only big studios or everything non Japanese?

Guess I'm gonna play Fez only when it's part of some bundle.
 
K

King_Moc

Banned
szaromir said:
There's absolutely nothing wrong about that opinion.
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There is when you express it in the way that he did. It was a shitty answer to a perfectly valid question from a japanese developer in a Q&A session. It came across as borderline xenophobic. He was pretty much mocking the guy.
 
P

PairOfFilthySocks

Member
szaromir said:
There's absolutely nothing wrong about that opinion.
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Yes there is, because it's a completely useless opinion. It's a display of wilful ignorance of an enormous amount of games based solely upon where they were made. The only reason a person makes an inherently easily debatable statement like that is to provoke a reaction. "American films suck." "French novels suck." Sure, you're welcome to make such a statement, but don't start playing the victim when your inflammatory is met with derision. And sorry, strawman-creators, that's the extent to which most people are responding to Fish's comments.

Of course, Fish's statement became all the more dubious when all he could back his statement up with was Skyward Sword, thereby making his ignorance clear to all.
 
breakfuss

breakfuss

Member
PairOfFilthySocks said:
Yes there is, because it's a completely useless opinion. It's a display of wilful ignorance of an enormous amount of games based solely upon where they were made. The only reason a person makes an inherently easily debatable statement like that is to provoke a reaction. "American films suck." "French novels suck." Sure, you're welcome to make such a statement, but don't start playing the victim when your inflammatory is met with derision. And sorry, strawman-creators, that's the extent to which most people are responding to Fish's comments.

Of course, Fish's statement became all the more dubious when all he could back his statement up with was Skyward Sword, thereby making his ignorance clear to all.
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Yeah, because many Japanese games don't follow certain conventions or share common themes and aesthetic features. Such ignorance!
 
A

AppleSmack

Banned
IMO, he is right. Japanese games this generation are terrible. They are so bad that there are only two decently made games that I was actually interested in: Bayonetta and Vanquish. I'm sure all of you are going to quote this and tell me how many other games made by Japanese developers you enjoyed but the fact is there is a serious drop in quality for japanese developers from last gen to the current gen. I enjoyed far more than 2 games made by japanese developers last gen.
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
AppleSmack said:
IMO, he is right. Japanese games this generation are terrible. They are so bad that there are only two decently made games that I was actually interested in: Bayonetta and Vanquish. I'm sure all of you are going to quote this and tell me how many other games made by Japanese developers you enjoyed but the fact is there is a serious drop in quality for japanese developers from last gen to the current gen. I enjoyed far more than 2 games made by japanese developers last gen.
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I think this can be directly attributed to many Japanese developers retreating to the "safer" handheld market and trying to appeal more to domestic tastes.

There are exceptions, of course. But it's a far cry from the Japanese dominance on consoles we're used to.


Obviously, this is only tangentially related to what Fish was actually alluding to (and that is something that he'd obviously also apply, maybe even in harsher terms, to western AAA development).
 
P

PairOfFilthySocks

Member
breakfuss said:
Yeah, because many Japanese games don't follow certain conventions or share common themes and aesthetic features. Such ignorance!
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If someone seriously thinks Japanese games share themes and features to such an extent that experiencing a handful of them allows said person to make a sweeping statement like Fish did, then yes, that person is ignorant as hell.

How bout you tell us what these conventions, common themes and aesthetic features are?
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
inm8num2 said:
zP8An6g.jpg
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A surefire way to get people talking about something is to tell them to shut up about it. :p

Don't tell me what to talk or not talk about!
 
R

Rogue_Ledr

Banned
ITs a hard truth folks, but for the most part ....... he is right!

Yes, there are some notable esceptions, but the majority of Japanese games are poor.
 
M

mullet2000

Member
pizzaroll said:
You're welcome.

(and no it doesn't make it okay, which is why he apologized and felt bad afterwards. keep on keeping on with the Gamer Outrage though)
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This is what I don't get. He apologized for the statement yet people keep ragging on him about it. People claim "well he acts like an asshole ALL the time!"

What other "asshole" things has he done exactly? He retorts back an people who bomb him with offensive shit on twitter sometimes, (suck my dick, choke on it) but I honestly haven't seen him do anything assholeish other than that japanese games comment.

Even his most recent one (the steam post) was because people were bombing his twitter with "FUCK YOU WE'RE GONNA BOYCOTT FUCK YOU FISH" comments. So his post said "boycott harder nerds." It was directed at those people, not the entire gaming community, come on now.

So what's left now, that he likes Vita over 3DS? Oh no...
 
R

Risette

A Good Citizen
mullet2000 said:
This is what I don't get. He apologized for the statement yet people keep ragging on him about it. People claim "well he acts like an asshole ALL the time!"

What other "asshole" things has he done exactly? He retorts back an people who bomb him with offensive shit on twitter sometimes, (suck my dick, choke on it) but I honestly haven't seen him do anything assholeish other than that japanese games comment.

Even his most recent one (the steam post) was because people were bombing his twitter with "FUCK YOU WE'RE GONNA BOYCOTT FUCK YOU FISH" comments. So his post said "boycott harder nerds." It was directed at those people, not the entire gaming community, come on now.

So what's left now, that he likes Vita over 3DS? Oh no...
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The only truly assholish thing he's done is worm out of properly fixing Fez on the 360.

Anything else being used against him is just petty.
 
I

inm8num2

Member
Haunted said:
A surefire way to get people talking about something is to tell them to shut up about it. :p

Don't tell me what to talk or not talk about!
Click to expand...

I didn't tell anyone to shut up about it. I said to let go of the anger/frustration over this. Phil Fish will never apologize and he's not going to change how he speaks.
 
Alec

Alec

Member
pizzaroll said:
The only truly assholish thing he's done is worm out of properly fixing Fez on the 360.

Anything else being used against him is just petty.
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The game is patched and is in perfect working condition. The problem was that less than 1% of people's existing save files weren't compatible with the patch and became corrupted. It was unfortunate, but the damage is long-past done and there has been nothing wrong with the game itself since it was patched.
 
N

Nohar

Member
... OK, give me a minute, I think I just lost my jaw. Must have dropped it somewhere around my desk, after I read about what Phil Fish did (also, the Twitter reactions).

I feel bad for the other people who participated in the conception of Fez. Fez is a good game, and it shouldn't get shunned because of the "debatable" opinion (and rude behaviour) of its director. Not that it is being shunned at all: the game sells quite well (fortunately, because it's a rather enjoyable game, and I think it deserves its success), and, well, he apologized (though I feel like he's apologizing because of how the community reacted, and maybe following some pressure from Microsoft, not because he feels really apologetic).

As for his "opinion" on the subject of japanese video games... I guess I'll share mine: I don't think japanese video games "suck", though I guess I have been a little disappointed lately. I don't feel like I'm experiencing the same "magic" in nowadays games than when I was playing older games. I'm not looking forward the new Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy or Tales of games. The one game that I just can't wait to play is Starbound, an another indie game. Though, I have to wonder if it's not my nostalgia which is getting the better of me. After all, nowadays games aren't bad. Lately, I've been enjoying "Fire Emblem: Awakening" a lot. But I miss other franchises, which don't seem to come back anytime soon, such as Suikoden (well, Suikoden set in the original background, not the one of the DS and PSP games), Breath of Fire, Shadow Hearts... Final Fantasy lost its touch since the Square-Enix merge and they completly destroyed the Mana world with average to mediocre games (something that really saddens me). Metroid is recovering from the aftermath of Other M, which, let's be honest, is a franchise killer. Darksiders was promising... But, well, we all know what happened to THQ, and this game isn't japanese.

It could be argued that japanese games are repeating the same tropes and are following the same codes for far too long (especially in JRPGs). Gameplay and graphics evolve, for the better and the worst, but some stories fail to move me anymore.
 
Darkmakaimura

Darkmakaimura

Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
So Phil Fish said something, that while has an inkling of truth, was still dumb in the way it was said.

He then goes recently about boycotters and how his game is #1 on Steam.

Granted, he shouldn't have opened his mouth that second time especially if what I hear about him thinking 'computers are only good for spreadsheets' line is true.

I checked his Twitter and the guy seems pretty down. The boycotter thing he said was no doubt out of anger, frustration and depression.

My look on this is if I were interested in Fez (I'm not) I would buy it despite his somewhat childish attitude. Fish is still not a racist or a homophobe or some religious nutjob. Maybe if he talked crap about tall, skinny people I could take it a bit personally but overall he's done nothing terribly wrong. He was just plain out dumb in his statements. That shouldn't prevent anyone from buying Fez if they legitimately think it's a good game.

This guy is not an Adam Orth - who actually insulted consumers. I dunno but after reading the Twitter, I actually kind of feel sorry for Mr. Fish.

It's time to stop giving the guy the John Kreese.
 
D

Dicer

Banned
When he goes beyond being a shit talking one hit wonder, then maybe he can talk smack about the industry... Until that happens he should keep his mouth shut, because nothing good ever comes out of it.
 
L

LeadenStride

Member
Maybe japanese games and their most succesful franchises have lost their magic, but in my opinion so have games in general, no matter where they're being made. In fact, I feel that a japanese game is more likely to have some soul, unlike most western games, that live mainly on high production values and not necessarily on factors I value more. But that's just my preference, I guess.

Can't speak about indie games though, they just are not my cup of tea.
 
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