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[tipoo]

Didn't Marcan and even Iwata confirm something along the lines of their being no fixed function hardware?

When/where, and when/where, respectively?

 

[Fourth Storm]

And that is where I run into a problem with what you are suggesting. Didn't Marcan and even Iwata confirm something along the lines of their being no fixed function hardware?

I can see where you are getting the 160 claim from now, if you are only counting only 4 of the chips as shaders.

This is not fixed function the way you are thinking of it. It's a component common to all R700 hardware. Most of the Radeon setup engine is actually still fixed function. Iwata and Marcan (if they did make such specific statements, I can't recall) were surely talking about the shading hardware in particular - as in, it doesn't function like a 3DS or Gamecube with dedicated hardware for lighting, bump mapping, etc.

Edit: I corrected the previous posts. I meant to identify all N blocks as shaders - just a typo.

Thank you.

NP

 

[krizzx]

When/where, and when/where, respectively?

For Iwata, it was when he was talking about the backward compatibility. He said that AMD augment the already present chip to do things for the Wii without using any of the Wii hardware.

For Marcan, I forgot the exact statement he made. I will have to look it up.

This is not fixed function the way you are thinking of it. It's a component common to all R700 hardware. Most of the Radeon setup engine is actually still fixed function. Iwata and Marcan (if they did make such specific statements, I can't recall) were surely talking about the shading hardware in particular - as in, it doesn't function like a 3DS or Gamecube with dedicated hardware for lighting, bump mapping, etc.

If this is true, then it seems I have been operating under the wrong understanding. I have never heard this information before, though that is mostly the result of conversation with people about the TEV. Everytime I think I have a better understanding, someone comes in and tells me something completely different than what the last guy said.

At first I was told the GC/Wii had no shaders, then there were people saying the GC/Wii didn't have programmable shaders like modern GPUs that use Shader Modal 1.1-5 but used a different shader called the TEV, then I was told that the TEV wasn't a shader and was just fixed function, then I was told that they weren't really fixed function but hybrid shaders and now I'm being told that modern AMD GPUs still use fix function hardware. I've been receiving a lot of mixed info over the years.

I'm going to need to take a break on that one.

 

[MDX]

When/where, and when/where, respectively?

Shiota Yes. The designers were already incredibly familiar with the Wii, so without getting hung up on the two machines' completely different structures, they came up with ideas we would never have thought of. There were times when you would usually just incorporate both the Wii U and Wii circuits, like 1+1. But instead of just adding like that, they adjusted the new parts added to Wii U so they could be used for Wii as well.


Well we dont know what they mean by adjusting.
And what they actually had to adjust to make it happen.
But it was a hardware solution.

 

[tipoo]

For Iwata, it was when he was talking about the backward compatibility. He said that AMD augment the already present chip to do things for the Wii without using any of the Wii hardware.

I recall that statement, I don't see what it has to do with the argument you two are having. Iwata said that instead of just adding in the Wii chips (1+1 he said), they merged the functionality of the two. I don't see why that precludes blah blah, when he was just talking about the backwards compatibility method.

 

[MDX]

I wouldn't say that. I would say that they just not fully utilizing it with most games being ports. I was also presenting it to explain the huge geometry increase observed in some of the first party games when compared to last gen games.

And this would be because Nintendo didnt have documentation ready for many developers?

 

[krizzx]

And this would be because Nintendo didnt have documentation ready for many developers?

That's more where I was leaning, but it was mostly towards the fact that the games were simply ports.

Games like ZombiU show a HUGE bump in geometry over what typical last gen games normally demonstrate.

Then we have the Bayonetta 2's characters modal having over twice the triangles as she has in the PS3/360 version.
http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1699978&postcount=1174


Then we have the more rounded Sonic model shown in the Sonic and Mario at the Olympics games compared to the Sonic games on the PS3/360 with the new trailer for Lost World added in.

[/QUOTE][/IMG]

There was also a statement by Frozenbyte that the Wii U version of Trine 2 had added Geometry.

It is no one thing that led me to this conclusion.
I can think of no better method to explain the polygon bump. I have no doubt in my mind that the Wii U is capable of twice the polygon output that the 360/PS3 are. The ground up games are clearly showing it.

 

[joesiv]

I'm going to need to take a break on that one.

This is likely the case. "Fixed Function" is a general term for a block that has a single function. In some cases, such as shading and lighting, these can be fixed function (think Hollywood), now a days these are not fixed function and much more programmable. However, other things that aren't general shading and lighting can be "fixed function", a basic example would be tesselation, it is a bunch of circuitry that has a single purpose to tesselate, it can't be reprogrammed to contribute to shading or anything like that.

I believe you are confusing fourth storms mention of "fixed function" for these other tasks, with what iwata was mentioning regarding the Hollywoods "fixed function" shading and lighting engine.

At first I was told the GC/Wii had no shaders, then there were people saying the GC/Wii didn't have programmable shaders like modern GPUs that use Shader Modal 1.1-5 but used a different shader called the TEV, then I was told that the TEV wasn't a shader and was just fixed function, then I was told that they weren't really fixed function but hybrid shaders and now I'm being told that modern AMD GPUs still use fix function hardware. I've been receiving a lot of mixed info over the years.

GPU hardware is generally based off of OpenGL or DirectX features, and specs, so when people talk about programmable shaders they are generally talking about how the hardware lines up with OpenGL/DirectX's definitions. GC's was an old school way of doing things (reminents from ArtX for sure), so while you could do some neat things with the TEV, it wasn't "programmable", and instead relegated to being considered "fixed function".

 

[tipoo]

ZombieU shows a huge in caps lock bump in geometry? To be honest, I don't see it. Graphics may be subjective in impression but geometry alone should be apparent to anyone, how is it that ZombieU shows much more geometry than say GOW Ascension?

 

[krizzx]

ZombieU shows a huge in caps lock bump in geometry? To be honest, I don't see it. Graphics may be subjective in impression but geometry alone should be apparent to anyone, how is it that ZombieU shows much more geometry than say GOW Ascension?

How? You just compare analyze.

Look for vertices and roundness. The more individual object in the environment, the more geometry its using.


Take the picture I used. The table to the left has every board rendered individually. Normally it would just be one chunk with drawn on boards on the texture. Then there are the baskets, the palette in the back and various other loose objects just scattered about the environment. That is not even getting into the detail to the zombies themselves. They have fingernails and teeth. There are chains hanging from the ceiling in then the holes in the shelves in the background. That is not even counting all of the other stuff rendered to the side and behind him in that scene. You don't generally see loose object like that in last gen games because they eat up resources for breakfast.

 

[Donnie]

N1-N8 are definitely the shaders. J1-J4 are in all likelihood fixed function interpolation units. Admittedly, I have not found much support for that notion, but the only counter seems to be that, starting with DirectX11 cards, AMD made interpolation a programmable function of the SPUs. That needn't be the case in Latte, and we must not fall into the trap of saying, "This would be better, so Nintendo must have included it." That logic has come back to bite us again and again.

Out of interest why do you consider it so likely that those 4 blocks are interpolation units? Have you seen a R700 design with those units identified to compare? Because that seems like a he'll of a lot of fixed function hardware just for that task. I could be wrong, but I'd be very interested in seeing a few comparison pics.

 

[tipoo]

How? You just compare analyze.

Look for vertices and roundness. The more individual object in the environment, the more geometry its using.


Take the picture I used. The table to the left has every board rendered. Normally it was just be one chunk with drawn on boards. Then there are the baskets, the pallete in the back and various other loose objects just scattered abou tthe environment. That is not even getting into the detail to the zombies themselves. They have fingernails and teeth.

And what's lacking here?

http://images.vg247.com/current//2012/06/God-of-War-Ascension-SP_005-noscale.jpg

 

[krizzx]

And what's lacking here?

http://images.vg247.com/current//2012/06/God-of-War-Ascension-SP_005-noscale.jpg

Take a good look at the wood. Most of it is in contiguous chuncks taht are just drawn on. They are all indiividually rendered. The same with the box they are pushing. Most of it is flat textures, not complex geometry.

The human character models aslo don't have a lot of detail int them. They are wearing few and cloths have no wrinkles or creases.

Biggest of all, is the overall amount of indivual object on screen. The more instances, the more the more stress on the GPU

There is big difference in how much geometry is being shown in this screen and the one I posted for ZombiU. Analyze them yourself. It is quite clear.

 

[bobeth]

Wow. This thread needs to die..

 

[joesiv]

Take a good look at the wood. Most of it is in contiguous chuncks taht are just drawn on. They are all indiividually rendered. The same with the box they are pushing. Most of it is flat textures, not geometry.

Unfortunatly, games from different developers, or just different games altogether can't be used for comparisons, especially if you're trying to use it to prove more or less powerful hardware. having worked in the game industry for nearly 10 years, things like props, are never built with much regard to hardware power. In general props are very low geo. Sometimes when designers, or artists push too much, the game will blow up, and if it's found a prop is too heavy in poly count, they'll reduce that specific one, or spread it over different zones, but that's rare.

Besides, different teams or developers will have different art directions, and different poly budgets for different things such as main character versus NPC versus enviroment.

IMO ZombiU has decent lighting, but it doesn't strike me as very poly heavy (NPC's or environments).

 

[krizzx]

Unfortunatly, games from different developers, or just different games altogether can't be used for comparisons, especially if you're trying to use it to prove more or less powerful hardware. having worked in the game industry for nearly 10 years, things like props, are never built with much regard to hardware power. In general props are very low geo. Sometimes when designers, or artists push too much, the game will blow up, and if it's found a prop is too heavy in poly count, they'll reduce that specific one, or spread it over different zones, but that's rare.

Besides, different teams or developers will have different art directions, and different poly budgets for different things such as main character versus NPC versus enviroment.

IMO ZombiU has decent lighting, but it doesn't strike me as very poly heavy (NPC's or environments).

You are way offbase. That is not what I am doing. To many people come in here for no other reason than to debate hardware strength.

I am focusing on a single specific aspect as it relates to the GPU. I am comparing the games purely to show the Wii U GPU's increase in polygon performance and why I believe it has two rasterizers.

I am not going to argue which game I think looks better or impressive. I'm analyzing the geometry purely. Lighting has no bearing on this. The politics of game development have no bearing on this.

If you which to debate this with me then please, provide some form of visual proof or documentation to support your claim as I have.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Out of interest why do you consider it so likely that those 4 blocks are interpolation units? Have you seen a R700 design with those units identified to compare? Because that seems like a he'll of a lot of fixed function hardware just for that task. I could be wrong, but I'd be very interested in seeing a few comparison pics.

Paint time? Paint time.

Apparently, there are 32 hardware interpolators in total (so 8 per block) and this is on all R700 cards, no matter the amount of ALUs.

Edit: Jeez krizz, you're telling off someone with 10 years in dev experience? Dude!

 

[MDX]

That's more where I was leaning, but it was mostly towards the fact that the games were simply ports.

Games like ZombiU show a HUGE bump in geometry over what typical last gen games normally demonstrate.

So you think Latte has a dual geometry engines like the
the AMD Radeon HD 7970 GPU for example has?

 

[blu]

Forgive my ignorance... how does this relate to the 2GB of total memory? OS only uses 300MB?

Ok, let me elaborate.

The app/game has a 32bit address space (by virtue of ppc750cl being a 32bit design) - that means the CPU can address 4GB of unique 'effective addresses'. Now, all bits and pieces of physical addresses (that means memory pools, IO space, etc) maps into the address space of the CPU, but the mapping can be (read: usually is) different for 'userspace' (aka game/app) and 'kernel space' (aka the OS). What we have on that diagram is supposedly the mapping for userspace. So, according to that, the app sees:

• 1GB of its own designated space; we take this as 'the granted 1GB' and won't pay further attention to it.
• ~700MB of space which includes OS interfaces and specialized mem pools (read: MEM1), which reside outside of the granted app mem, but is nevertheless mapped into the app effective address space.

My point is that aside from those OS parts that the app directly interacts with and are mapped into the app address space, there's apparently ~300MB from the system-reserved pool which remain unmapped - which for all intents and purposes should constitute the OS itself, along with its private data structures and buffers.

Seems like a gigantic waste, I agree. Kind of like the 1 GB of RAM used for system applications that run like molasses.

Unless Nintendo are intentionally gimping the system so that there is room for improvement in each wave of titles. Insane, but perhaps true. And as we can see, even without access to MEM1, Wii U is holding its own against current gen, so you could argue that the 32MB really isn't necessary this early in the console's life. Iwata did claim that only 50% of Wii U's power was being utilized - a vague general statement, but this could in part explain his reasoning for saying that.

I assume the 'libraries' designation there has more to do with the way this memory is managed, than with what resides in it. Like how in a PC app you have heap memory managed by the runtime heap management libraries, even though you have that mem provided to you by OS' own app memory manager (google for memory arena). Well, on the WiiU that arena mem is always statically-granted as fixed 1GB, *but* the MEM1 is not - it's subject to some form of specialized dynamic management.

 

[krizzx]

Paint time? Paint time.

Apparently, there are 32 hardware interpolators in total (so 8 per block) and this is on all R700 cards, no matter the amount of ALUs.

Edit: Jeez krizz, you're telling off someone with 10 years in dev experience? Dude!

I'm not trying to be rude or tell him off. I'm just tired of people outright dismissing evidence I use with nothing to substantially disprove it or back their own statement.

I just want to focus on one thing at a time.

Right now, I am analyzing the geometry. If he believes that ZombiU is not showing a substantial bump in geometry over the average game on the PS3/360 then I would like to see something that supports this claim, not just, "but it doesn't strike me as very poly heavy". I'm looking for facts, and supported opinions.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Take a good look at the wood. Most of it is in contiguous chuncks taht are just drawn on. They are all indiividually rendered. The same with the box they are pushing. Most of it is flat textures, not complex geometry.

The human character models aslo don't have a lot of detail int them. They are wearing few and cloths have no wrinkles or creases.

Biggest of all, is the overall amount of indivual object on screen. The more instances, the more the more stress on the GPU

There is big difference in how much geometry is being shown in this screen and the one I posted for ZombiU. Analyze them yourself. It is quite clear.

Yeah just look at that shoulder. Smooth as butter. Also, can you show me the screens where Zombi U is pushing dozens of zombies on screen? I haven't seen those yet.

 

[krizzx]

Yeah just look at that shoulder. Smooth as butter. Also, can you show me the screens where Zombi U is pushing dozens of zombies on screen? I haven't seen those yet.

It's rare occurrence do to the way the game play is structured. Fighting more than 2 Zombies at once is extremely hard, so you rarely see more than 2 or 3 on screen except for event fights like the Tower of London and the near end game mall area.

I would probably have to take them myself because I've seen no photos of them

In multilayer, you can spawn over 12 zombies on the screen at once as well that the player character being rendered.

 

[joesiv]

You are way offbase. That is not what I am doing. To many people come in here for no other reason than to debate hardware strength.

I am focusing on a single specific aspect as it relates to the GPU. I am comparing the games purely to show the Wii U GPU's increase in polygon performance and why I believe it has two rasterizers.

I am not going to argue which game I think looks better or impressive. I'm analyzing the geometry purely. Lighting has no bearing on this. The politics of game development have no bearing on this.

If you which to debate this with me then please, provide some form of visual proof or documentation to support your claim as I have.

I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion, from my experience as a game developer. I'm not sure how I could be off base. I'm speaking directly to pure polygon counts. Fact is, from the multiple developement houses I'ved worked for (EA/Radical/United Front Games), polygon counts (which are created by artists), never really took into account the platform, in some cases, they were just pulled from a general pool of art assets.

I'm not talking which looks better or worse, I'm just talking about art (polygon models) in general. You can't look at a table that has a few extra polygons and come to the conclusion that the tech has a dual rasterizers. It's a stretch.

You could get the same table from zombiU on any gamecube game as well, all depends on where the poly budgets are going... heck you could get the same table in a PS2 game too, it means nothing regarding hardware. It would only mean something if it was the same game developed for both consoles, and one console allowed for greater polycount.

By the way, the examples that you show with God of War, there are plenty of areas in that, such as the ground, and even the wheel in the background, that show just as much geo for wooden boards type art.

 

[Schnozberry]

Yeah just look at that shoulder. Smooth as butter. Also, can you show me the screens where Zombi U is pushing dozens of zombies on screen? I haven't seen those yet.

There are times in the game where you may have up to 15 zombies on screen if you're an idiot trying to Rambo through a level. It didn't have an appreciable effect on framerate if I'm remembering correctly. They could also dynamically scale the detail, so it could be meaningless.

 

[krizzx]

I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion, from my experience as a game developer. I'm not sure how I could be off base. I'm speaking directly to pure polygon counts. Fact is, from the multiple developement houses I'ved worked for (EA/Radical/United Front Games), polygon counts (which are created by artists), never really took into account the platform, in some cases, they were just pulled from a general pool of art assets.

I'm not talking which looks better or worse, I'm just talking about art (polygon models) in general. You can't look at a table that has a few extra polygons and come to the conclusion that the tech has a dual rasterizers. It's a stretch.

You could get the same table from zombiU on any gamecube game as well, all depends on where the poly budgets are going... heck you could get the same table in a PS2 game too, it means nothing regarding hardware. It would only mean something if it was the same game developed for both consoles, and one console allowed for greater polycount.

Sorry for my rudeness. The longwinder argument earlier with Jordann and some others has caused a sharp drop in my patience and made me a tad bit apprehensive. I mistook you for one of them.

I was referring to when you made this statement when I said off base"prove more or less powerful hardware." and the comment about the lighting.

I'm not trying to debate overall hardware strength at this point. I'm just focusing on pure polygon output of the GPU. The Bayonetta 2 photo is the biggest thing that leads me to this. I cannot dismiss a bump from 50k to 130k easily.

In the God of War screen, there were certainly similar objects, but I was counting the overall amount. There the table, then the pallet, then shelves, then the baskets, then cans, then the fixtures hanging from the selling, then other loose object, then the individual zombies themlves with there wrinkled, torn cloths, fingernails and teeth.

I'm not trying to say that what you are saying is outright wrong though. Your development experience is clearly better than mine if you been at it for 10 years. I've only recently started trying to seriously develop games on my own in the past year. I've been doing graphics design for about 6 years, so I like to analyze imagery and I have a pretty good eye for intricate detail.

I would rather see photographic evidence then just read words. A picture tales a thousand words as it goes.

 

[phosphor112]

I'm not trying to be rude or tell him off. I'm just tired of people outright dismissing evidence I use with nothing to substantially disprove it or back their own statement.

I just want to focus on one thing at a time.

Right now, I am analyzing the geometry. If he believes that ZombiU is not showing a substantial bump in geometry over the average game on the PS3/360 then I would like to see something that supports this claim, not just, "but it doesn't strike me as very poly heavy". I'm looking for facts, and supported opinions.

Going by eye isn't analyzing. You were better off pulling that 130k figure from Bayo 2.

 

[joesiv]

Sorry for my rudeness. The longwinder argument earlier with Jordann and some others has caused a sharp drop in my patience and made me a tad bit apprehensive. I mistook you for one of them.

I was referring to when you made this statement when I said off base"prove more or less powerful hardware." and the comment about the lighting.

I'm not trying to debate overall hardware strength at this point. I'm just focusing on pure polygon output of the GPU. The Bayonetta 2 photo is the biggest thing that leads me to this. I cannot dismiss a bump from 50k to 130k easily.

Forgiven.

I get confused because, when talking about polygon output, that IS talking about how powerful the hardware is, isn't it? With regards to polygon throughput anyways.

The bayonetta 2 thing is a bit overblown for what we know. If you walk through a developement house, you'll see modelers working on high poly models all the time, it doesn't mean that it's the gameplay LOD, might be NIS model, could be anything. Given the animation seemed to be scripted for that sequence, already it's hinting at a non-gameplay model. However we'll just have to wait and see.

Btw, on Prototype and Sleeping Dogs we used higher poly models and textures in NIS's for the characters.

 

[krizzx]

Going by eye isn't analyzing. You were better off pulling that 130k figure from Bayo 2.

I can assure, that I have ample experience in graphics analysis. You certainly cannot know everything just by looking at the picture, but it can tell you a lot if you know what to look for.

Forgiven.

I get confused because, when talking about polygon output, that IS talking about how powerful the hardware is, isn't it? With regards to polygon throughput anyways.

The bayonetta 2 thing is a bit overblown for what we know. If you walk through a developement house, you'll see modelers working on high poly models all the time, it doesn't mean that it's the gameplay LOD, might be NIS model, could be anything. Given the animation seemed to be scripted for that sequence, already it's hinting at a non-gameplay model. However we'll just have to wait and see.

Btw, on Prototype and Sleeping Dogs we used higher poly models and textures in NIS's for the characters.

This is understandable. Thanks for the response. This gives me something more to look into.

 

[phosphor112]

Take a good look at the wood. Most of it is in contiguous chuncks taht are just drawn on. They are all indiividually rendered. The same with the box they are pushing. Most of it is flat textures, not complex geometry.

The human character models aslo don't have a lot of detail int them. They are wearing few and cloths have no wrinkles or creases.

Biggest of all, is the overall amount of indivual object on screen. The more instances, the more the more stress on the GPU

There is big difference in how much geometry is being shown in this screen and the one I posted for ZombiU. Analyze them yourself. It is quite clear.

God Of War's frame rate is unlocked. It ranges from 30fps to 50+

Seems a bit disingenuous to compare it to a 30fps game (one that isn't even locked that frame rate).

I can assure, that I have ample experience in graphics analysis. You certainly cannot know everything just by looking at the picture, but it can tell you a lot if you know what to look for.

You mentioned "holes" in the shelf. That's nothing more than a texture.

So, my faith in your abilities is pretty slim.

 

[krizzx]

God Of War's frame rate is unlocked. It ranges from 30fps to 50+

Seems a bit disingenuous to compare it to a 30fps game (one that isn't even locked that frame rate).



You mentioned "holes" in the shelf. That's nothing more than a texture.

So, my faith in your abilities is pretty slim.

I was never counting the smaller holes as geometry it is clear as day that those are part of a big texture. A really high res texture at that, though I don't think anyone believe the Wii U is not capable of much higher resolution textures at this point.I speaking of the bigger ones on the corner. Those wholes do look be made using geometry.

 

[lherre]

Going by eye isn't analyzing. You were better off pulling that 130k figure from Bayo 2.

We have another JordanN polycount master

 

[phosphor112]

I was never counting the holes as polygons, but what you could see through them towards the back. It is clear that those are textures. Really high res textures at that, though I don't think anyone believe the Wii U is not capable of much higher resolution textures at this point.

Impressive? Not really.

Also, your quote here...

That is not even counting all of the other stuff rendered to the side and behind him in that scene. You don't generally see loose object like that in last gen games because they eat up resources for breakfast.

That's not how rendering works. You don't render everything in the world around you, only the things visible on screen.

Also, culling...

 

[krizzx]

Impressive? Not really.

Also, your quote here...



That's not how rendering works. You don't render everything in the world around you, only the things visible on screen.

Also, culling...

That mostly depends on the game. In this case. You can actually get in a corner and view the entirety of everything on screen at once. ZombiU loads entire sections of the game.

I cannot attest to what you find impressive. That is your opinion, and I doubt you would find anything on this hardware impressive.

 

[phosphor112]

That mostly depends on the game. In this case. You can actually get in a corner and view the entirety of everything.

What does that have to do with anything? With that logic, I can say GoW is rendering more because the camera is panned so far back. You also talk like there is no such thing as LOD models. Moving farther back will cause lower LOD's to take place in those things that you see across the room.

 

[krizzx]

What does that have to do with anything? With that logic, I can say GoW is rendering more because the camera is panned so far back. You also talk like there is no such thing as LOD models. Moving farther back will cause lower LOD's to take place in those things that you see across the room.

I'm not saying that at all, but I saw no signs of models or textures being swapped ever in that game regardless of distance. There seemed to be only 1 level of detail. The entire seemed to use the same basic models for everything, both zombie and survivor. It witness no lod swapping taking place in that game.

 

[phosphor112]

I'm not saying that at all, but I saw no signs of models or textures being swapped ever in that game regardless of distance. There seemed to be only 1 level of detail.

Even PC exclusive games have LOD's. Surely a Wii U game will have them as well.

The only games that I can think of that don't are super old ones that simply "fade out" entities, or something like a 2.5 game.

 

[krizzx]

Even PC exclusive games have LOD's. Surely a Wii U game will have them as well.

The only games that I can think of that don't are super old ones that simply "fade out" entities, or something like a 2.5 game.

That is a different argument altogether. Of course the Wii U will have them. Even the Wii had them, but in ZombiU I saw none in use.

Its not hard to spot texture and model swapping taking place in a game. Something like that would have stood out to me.

Not all games use LOD swapping. LOD models have to be made and scripted. The hardware doesn't produce them itself the last time I checked. I'm guessing the long load screens alleviated the need for it. You generally only see that used in games with huge draw distances. There is no need for a such a thing in ZombiU.

 

[bgassassin]

I do not ignore facts. I have taken every reasonable argument brought about into consideration.

What I am saying is what I have concluded at the end of the day after analyzing all of the facts presented by everyone.

Your exploitations have been duly noted. I have taken what you, Zomie, blu and BGAssasin have said an analyzed it myself.

Bg correlated direct design similarities between Brazos and Latte and provided direct visual proof to support his. Logically it would follow that manufacturers will reuse components in chip design. I see no reason to discount this at this point. I have seen arguments brought against it, but none that outweigh it.

Then there are still the two facts that we can confirm.

Latte has 5 duplicate components near the base of the GPU and that it is a custom design. From there, I did research in order to look for an explanation.

Slow down partner. Remember I only posed the dual engine idea as a hypothetical. Having that Brazos info should help us better identify what's going on in Latte. Just making it known that I don't need to be right just like I don't need Fourth to be wrong. I just want us to figure out what is going on in this die shot.

Fourth, I saw your post and will have a response for some of it later.

 

[krizzx]

Slow down partner. Remember I only posed the dual engine idea as a hypothetical. Having that Brazos info should help us better identify what's going on in Latte. Just making it known that I don't need to be right and just like I don't need Fourth to be wrong. I just want us to figure out what is going on in this die shot.

Fourth, I saw your post and will have a response for some of it later.

Don't take my statement the wrong way.

I just want this to be figured out just as much as you and that just seemed like the most likely possibility and quickest solution at that point. It was like a puzzle that all of the pieces suddenly fit together for. I wont die if turns out to be wrong, though. It was just a hypothesis.

I'm still not completely removing it from the realm of possibility. At least not until we can get some kind of positive I.D. on the fixed function theory.

 

[phosphor112]

That is a different argument altogether. Of course the Wii U will have them. Even the Wii had them, but in ZombiU I saw none in use.

Its not hard to spot texture and model swapping taking place in a game. Something like that would have stood out to me.

Not all games use LOD swapping. LOD models have to be made and scripted. The hardware doesn't produce them itself the last time I checked. I'm guessing the long load screens alleviated the need for it. You generally only see that used in games with huge draw distances. There is no need for a such a thing in ZombiU.

It has them. It's a modern rendering technique. They would be STUPID not to. The heavy fog that lingers throughout the game can be easily used to cover LOD swapping.

Also, GT5 is a great example of a game that is super great at LOD swapping. You can hardly tell when it switches from the high LOD's to the mid range ones, and then the mid range ones to the low end models.

 

[krizzx]

It has them. It's a modern rendering technique. They would be STUPID not to. The heavy fog that lingers throughout the game can be easily used to cover LOD swapping.

Also, GT5 is a great example of a game that is super great at LOD swapping. You can hardly tell when it switches from the high LOD's to the mid range ones, and then the mid range ones to the low end models.

And GT5 is also a game with a huge draw distance like I said.

ZombiU is not GT5 and GT5 is not a Wii U game. The Wii U doesn't have the graphical limitations of the PS3. There are few open ended environments with a huge draw distance in ZombiU, and I recall no texture or model swapping. I doubt the game had need for them. It would have been an unnecessary expense for a game like this one on hardware this strong.

The fog isn't thick enough to hide something like that.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I assume the 'libraries' designation there has more to do with the way this memory is managed, than with what resides in it. Like how in a PC app you have heap memory managed by the runtime heap management libraries, even though you have that mem provided to you by OS' own app memory manager (google for memory arena). Well, on the WiiU that arena mem is always statically-granted as fixed 1GB, *but* the MEM1 is not - it's subject to some form of specialized dynamic management.

Thanks for that explanation. Aaaand, yeah I'm gonna have to google some of that stuff. haha. Ah, I wish I had more time to learn programming, maybe make an indie game some day.

Slow down partner. Remember I only posed the dual engine idea as a hypothetical. Having that Brazos info should help us better identify what's going on in Latte. Just making it known that I don't need to be right and just like I don't need Fourth to be wrong. I just want us to figure out what is going on in this die shot.

Fourth, I saw your post and will have a response for some of it later.

Looking forward to it! Hope that I didn't seem to be putting down any of your speculation, analysis, and contributions to these threads. I appreciate it all, and it's been a fun ride. From everything we've learned over the past few months, though, and especially now with that Brazos annotation, I just cannot get behind the idea of a dual setup engine.

 

[bgassassin]

Don't take my statement the wrong way.

I just want this to be figured out just as much as you and that just seemed like the most likely possibility and quickest solution at that point. It was like a puzzle that all of the pieces suddenly fit together for. I wont die if turns out to be wrong, though. It was just a hypothesis.

I'm still not completely removing it from the realm of possibility. At least not until we can get some kind of positive I.D. on the fixed function theory.

No problem.

It's just that while I felt I identified similar components, the actual labeling was guess work.

Looking forward to it! Hope that I didn't seem to be putting down any of your speculation, analysis, and contributions to these threads. I appreciate it all, and it's been a fun ride. From everything we've learned over the past few months, though, and especially now with that Brazos annotation, I just cannot get behind the idea of a dual setup engine.

We're both giving our views of it. I'm not bothered by what you said as we're trying to justify our view in certain areas which in turn means if there is a discrepancy in our view along the way then the opposing view is going to be "put down". I kinda find if funny that our main point of contention seems to be Block W, haha. And that is a major part of my response.

By the way were you able to download that document?

 

[ArchangelWest]

I'll just take this opportunity to state that for all that I may agree with or disagree with, I appreciate everyone on this thread who has or is actively seeking the truth.

 

[Nightbringer]

I am going to ask something... Any of you with inside info can confirm if the GPU has got a VCE unit?

 

[Argyle]

Edit: Jeez krizz, you're telling off someone with 10 years in dev experience? Dude!

Haha, my favorite was a few pages back when he basically called ERP @ B3D incompetent for his opinion that the GC was the worst hardware last time around:

I go by facts. "A" developers claim means nothing. A good developers claim means a lot more. There were "developers" that claimed the GC was incapable of texture effect like bump mapping and that it couldn't do bloom. But it did it in launch games. Only the PS2 was incapable of those things that gen.

For what it's worth I've been working on games for well over a decade and ERP was a seasoned programmer when I first started...

If anyone is curious, here is the thread about that on B3D. He states the basis for his opinion quite clearly: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=61761

 

[JordanN]

We have another JordanN polycount master

Pfft, he wishes he could be me. I actually have game modeling experience.

 

[prag16]

I am going to ask something... Any of you with inside info can confirm if the GPU has got a VCE unit?

Not sure, but the xbone overall looks like a VCR unit. Does that help?

 

[megabytecr]

Outsider looking in.

Everything is guess work as I see it, some have more weight than others, but everything is speculation, so I give everyone the benefit of the doubt until, if ever, new information is leaked.

The next exclusive games might bring more to the table but I don't know, we are early in the console life, so I don't think even Nintendo might push this box much on the coming games. I have hopes for Mario 3D and Retro's game, but lately I am lowering expectations.

 

[blu]

Not sure, but the xbone overall looks like a VCR unit. Does that help?

*tips hat*