MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
As far as LR goes, there isn't much to talk about. Don't even have a viable big bad yet. And if Lumina is supposed to be that I may as well get hyped for Fairy Fencer.
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Lightning Returns starts to appear in Los Angeles
- Thread starter Perfo
- Start date
As far as LR goes, there isn't much to talk about. Don't even have a viable big bad yet. And if Lumina is supposed to be that I may as well get hyped for Fairy Fencer.
Yea. I realized there really isn't much else to say at this point lol
PshycoNinja
Member
Serious question : what are their western sales? Last I checked, games like MGR sold like 300k here.
It really seems that the west has turned largely away from JP games that aren't Nintendo backed
Metal Gear Solid 4: NA - 2.5 million +
EU - 1.5 million +
And the Kingdom Hearts series does extraordinarily well in NA and EU even the portable titles.
Okay last thought: why is 13-2 not considered successful in that same fashion when the game sold 2 million. I am just asking.
Edit : psycho, I mean games after 2010. 13 sold a ton too but game sales overall dropped after 2010. I argue FF 13-2 is a victim of this rather than perceived fan backlash.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Success in sales and success in the eyes of the fanbase are different things Toth. They used XIII-2 as a DLC experiment. And they had a success in that regard.
However the failure to be noted is the Original sales of it's predecessor and how many dropped off along with all the returns the game had, and the very quick price drop.
And only now are they releasing a version of the game that packs in most of the DLC content. Which I believe is currently Japan only.
Because it was a huge drop off from XIII. FFX had about 6.6m and FFX-2 had over 4m, this is the kind of number difference one might expect to see going to a sequel like this.
PshycoNinja
Member
Because going from 6M+ to 2M is a significant drop-off and is terrible for a FF game. I personally don't think Konami found MGR that big of a success.
Completely different expectations too. SE expected XIII-2 to do a lot better then what it did and is the reason why Kitase made that ridiculous statement saying "We don't want to call LR, XIII-3 because then people think they have to play the last game to play this one and understand it."
That1BlackGuy
Member
I don't think criticizing FFXIII makes you a SquareEnix hater per-se, it's simply that this particular installment wasn't a lot of people's cup of tea. Every FF has been derisive for the most part (started with V as far as I remember).
No secret that I disliked XIII and liked FFXIII-2, but even that game had it's criticisms like any title. XIII-2 fixed a lot issues I had with XIII, yes they did in a "check off" fashion but they did it nonetheless:
____
+I like how they furthered improved upon the battle system and streamlined it.
+I really dug the Historia Crux mechanic and how it allowed you to replay scenarios with
different options if you so chose to. I also liked that many of the environments didn't feel as constricted as the original.
+I absolutely adored the OST for this game, very different and experimental. Wish they didn't take out the vocals for Invisible Invaders though.
+I enjoyed the overall cast much more than the original, Noel and Caius in particular however Serah was serviceable.
+I liked the Pokemon'ish third party member deal they had going.
+Aesthetically I thought the game looked great but then again I don't really care about reused assets and while good performance is always welcome, the game didn't crash so I'm" good.
+One of the most important things was how surprisingly quirky it was. FFXIII didn't have much of that at all.
-Battles for the most part were easy and I wish the Bleed mechanic played a more prominent role in battle; that could've been a goldmine as far as challenging the player and adding an extra layer to combat.
-The plot left a lot to be desired and borderline nonsensical, it felt like they were trying to do a reset and a sequel at the same time and using the paradox deal as a copout for both story design and choice making. Everything in the game feels inconsequential.
-Chocolina, I know what they were going for but the execution just didn't hit it.
-I wish Serendipity was more fleshed out as a lot of the games just didn't hold my attention for long.
-Performance issues; this isn't necessarily a thing for me like I said but it does hampers others ability to enjoy the game.
I could have someone just as easily strike down all of my positive points but at the end of the day if you enjoyed the game you enjoyed it. Hopefully LR turns out satisfactory.
No secret that I disliked XIII and liked FFXIII-2, but even that game had it's criticisms like any title. XIII-2 fixed a lot issues I had with XIII, yes they did in a "check off" fashion but they did it nonetheless:
____
+I like how they furthered improved upon the battle system and streamlined it.
+I really dug the Historia Crux mechanic and how it allowed you to replay scenarios with
different options if you so chose to. I also liked that many of the environments didn't feel as constricted as the original.
+I absolutely adored the OST for this game, very different and experimental. Wish they didn't take out the vocals for Invisible Invaders though.
+I enjoyed the overall cast much more than the original, Noel and Caius in particular however Serah was serviceable.
+I liked the Pokemon'ish third party member deal they had going.
+Aesthetically I thought the game looked great but then again I don't really care about reused assets and while good performance is always welcome, the game didn't crash so I'm" good.
+One of the most important things was how surprisingly quirky it was. FFXIII didn't have much of that at all.
-Battles for the most part were easy and I wish the Bleed mechanic played a more prominent role in battle; that could've been a goldmine as far as challenging the player and adding an extra layer to combat.
-The plot left a lot to be desired and borderline nonsensical, it felt like they were trying to do a reset and a sequel at the same time and using the paradox deal as a copout for both story design and choice making. Everything in the game feels inconsequential.
-Chocolina, I know what they were going for but the execution just didn't hit it.
-I wish Serendipity was more fleshed out as a lot of the games just didn't hold my attention for long.
-Performance issues; this isn't necessarily a thing for me like I said but it does hampers others ability to enjoy the game.
I could have someone just as easily strike down all of my positive points but at the end of the day if you enjoyed the game you enjoyed it. Hopefully LR turns out satisfactory.
Didnt XIII-2 sell out its first shipmentin Japan?
Sounds like they had reasonable expectations there. They just overestimated in the west.
PshycoNinja
Member
*Throws hands in the air*
I give up. There is no getting through.
If you think XIII-2 was the "victim" of this "collapse" of the console industry in Japan and not backlash from fans then you are just as blinded by the light as Square Enix is.
Meccanical
Member
Welcome to the legion of ignoring the shit out of Toth.
That is a fair point, I do think I remember hearing that. Perhaps they shouldn't have made a game they expected to sell poorly though?
Can you show me actual data to support your conclusion? I am only using hard facts to base my argument.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Agreed. Like XIII series all you want. It's subjective.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Also MGR is a big shift in the MGS series. In a full action game, with a totally new plot with a few mentions and characters related to the past games. A more proper comparisson would be Dirge of Cerberus.
XIII-2 is still a full FF game in mechanics and a direct sequel to a main game.
XIII-2 is still a full FF game in mechanics and a direct sequel to a main game.
Heart Attack
Member
I liked both FF 13, and 13-2. So much hate from gaffers.
PshycoNinja
Member
What the fuc---?!?
You are using numbers and deriving your own conclusions from it while I see the numbers as displeased FF fans (with the drop off rate WW not just Japan). That coupled with the massive price drop in NA and EU not more then a month later with stores basically putting it on clearance for $15-$20 and its pretty clear to see the picture.
I don't ignore you guys. Are you so unwilling to defend your viewpoint?
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Except it retconned the first one's ending and consistently break's it's worlds rules by making vague new ones up designed to break those rules. Crystals within.
Proof of these stores selling the game for cheap? How much of the sales were discounted? do we have a number? No? Again show hard facts.
No it did not retcon the first one's ending.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, especially this (and the horror of Chocolina during dramatic story moments). I was intrigued when that feature rolled out near the beginning, but it really never felt like it was utilized in fear-inducing way except that very battle, the final battle, and the requiem DLC. I'd like to see them explore features like this to create more intense and varied battles.
Speaking of which, the game felt quite easy ESPECIALLY considering the fact that there was an Easy mode. I figured the inclusion of easy mode would allow them to let loose a little with the normal mode, but they didn't.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I thought it was still bullcrap regardless. Made basically fun of you for playing the first IMO.
If you want a different term I'll give you Story Writer Asspull.
We've been over this in other threads. Retcon is the wrong word but it's the exact same thing as a retcon.
If joe dies at the end of game A but comes back to life with magic that did not exist in game A's world before at the 'extended end of game A' that plays at start of game B it's not much different. The time travel stuff was made to be a huge part of the franchise from how they handled it in FFXIII-2 and it barely had a couple of mentions in XIII. They retconned what the series was about without actually using a 'retcon'.
Edit: I realize my joe dies statement sounds a bit contrived, but then FFXIII-2 is, but I mean if you're shoving time travel stuff into the ending of FFXIII when showing it in FFXIII-2, just because it took place 'after' what we saw or whatever, doesn't make it any better.
tiggerkiddo
Member
It's such a decisive game...there will always be this war until Squeenix moves on to something else.
PshycoNinja
Member
What the crap are you talking about?
http://www.giantbomb.com/final-fantasy-xiii-2/3030-33883/forums/disappointing-first-week-sale-in-japan-529886/
http://n4g.com/news/957637/final-fantasy-xiii-2-sells-350k-first-month-in-the-us#c-6357559
You know the facts you're just ignoring them and trying to find ways to spin this. Does it matter how well it did or didn't do it it's first month? We were talking about both games LTD sales. Come on man I know you're smarter then this.
Edit: The point is this. You said you blamed the "collapse" of the console industry in Japan for the low XIII-2 numbers. I called BS and showed that worldwide XIII-2 dropped off. Proving my point it was displeased fans and not just a singular occurrence in Japan. Then you asked for first months sales completely trying to derail the main point.
Lol yes it did. And how did they explain away the first games end? Paradoxes!! (._. )
I enjoyed 13 very much. Not a great game by Final Fantasy standards though. 13-2 was great too but take away Lightning and Serah and the whole 13 connection, Keep Noel, Yeul and Caius and you have a really great story.
Can't say im looking forward to this that much though. Like everyone said, I dont have anything against Lightning, but I'm just sick of her.
Can't say im looking forward to this that much though. Like everyone said, I dont have anything against Lightning, but I'm just sick of her.
Aeriscloud
Banned
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Well, it was "promoted" as a sequel. Who knew it would become a cluterfuck in terms of plot and lore?...
...Well I kinda smell it, but SE intention was to sell it as a real sequel with our favorite characters again on it!.
It certainly deflated a bit of the first one's ending. I don't like the idea that their final victory was effectively reduced to being cause an unintroduced character waved their hand. The theme of the first one's ending is fighting fate, taking it into their own hands. To not just roll over and let those in power walk over them. 2 goes back and makes it feel a bit the opposite. They fought, but it wasn't them that made their victory so.
They overcome the will of the captors, but they are still subjected to the will of those that are beyond them. I didn't hate this, I just found it a bit contrived.
XIII-2 did pull a retcon. The
happy ending
everyone was turned into a c'eith in Orphan's Cradle
Arguable.
Sequels often add more to the world than the previous entries. We hardly know much of the world of Gran Pulse to begin with so the sequel obvious had a great opportunity to flesh out the world of Gran Pulse. The new elements in FFXIII-2 didn't contradict any previous information established in FFXIII, only supplements it. What you're saying makes no sense. The XIII series' theme is still about trying to fight and overcome fate.
Okay thank you for the facts, this is good. However, I counter with this: Sales were down a ton yes but were those numbers not consistent with every big name title released then that was not a FPS or AC? I'll look into it later and get back to you.
zeopower6
Member
Doesn't a retcon usually imply that facts were changed? (Like suddenly, someone is around that wasn't around originally or in this case) Nothing really changed from XIII->XIII-2 in terms of the ending leading to XIII-2, we just saw what happened directly afterward.
And just curious but how did XIII-2 'explain that plothole'?
The time travel stuff was still barely introduced at first in XIII-2, and everyone was essentially pretending it was always there in the game world. The biggest sin of FFXIII and FFXIII-2 is their horrendous world building. Both in plot and design.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
FFS, go away Lightning, nobody likes you, you woefully underdeveloped dull-as-dishwater twat.
Exentryk
Member
There may be a male baddie that is yet to be announced, with some connection to Caius. Personally, Caius is a pretty crappy villain, and needs to go.
That1BlackGuy
Member
100% Agreed, those battles were the only times where the mechanic actually factored into the dynamic of the battle and forced me to adjust accordingly. I really wanted more of that and am hopeful they do something like that with Lightning Returns or even another future FF title in general. Leaving money on the table and all that jazz.
You know I had actually forgot they had an Easy mode which makes it even more perplexing that they didn't add a notable layer of challenge to the regular mode. I don't know maybe they were trying to make it more accessible since some sections of FFXIII were difficult but then again, wouldn't that be what the Easy mode was for.
Femmeworth
Banned
I was expecting one of those advertisements on the side of a building or something. Oh Perfo.
I might buy Versus twice to show SE that it's pretty unacceptable that we had to see three Lightning games before getting it. If everyone buys Versus then it will show them how big of a mistake it was to focus on Lightning, then maybe we can get a less Toriyama focused FF future.
I think I should go to sleep
It didn't rewrite the ending no, but it pulled a sneak attack by changing the assumed end. If you reaally want to get technical about it then it isn't one, but the shock factor makes it feel every bit like a retcon, especially considering XIII-2's completely different focus from XIII.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon
According to TV Tropes, XIII-2 would classify as a revision retcon.
As for the plothole,
in XIII it seemed like the party was saved from their curse as l'cie by THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP AND WILLPOWER, with no explanation given otherwise; fast forward to XIII-2 and it's revealed that it was the goddess Etro who saved the party, by sending her power through Etro's Gate. At this point in time Etro was already in the 'netherworld' so to speak, and was slowly dying from being engulfed in chaos. In opening the gate some chaos flowed through and pulled Lightning into Valhalla, as well as distorting reality and causing a rift down the timeline, creating infinite alternate time worlds and voids that would all ultimately dissolve into entropy as Etro faded away and chaos began to flow through the gate. So basically, the party surviving and defeating Orphan in XIII doomed all of reality. Caius, having lived for hundreds of years and being able to see everything thanks to Yeul, saw this and decided to take an alternate option by just destroying time outright. This also means every main character in the XIII saga was a pawn from start to finish.
friskykillface
Banned
I liked final fantasy XIII and have the collectors edition of XIII-2 sealed waiting for me to play.
Bleh I should have bought another since it was $10 on clearance at a closing Sony store .
Bleh I should have bought another since it was $10 on clearance at a closing Sony store .
War? It's whining.