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[Phawx]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

 

[Wonder Cheese]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

Agreed.

 

[USC-fan]

The only thing that dedicated servers can offer is client-side processing for A.I.

Games such as Diablo 3 already do this. The game requires an internet connection at all times, and enemies, drops, loots are generated by the server which are then streamed to the player and back. All data and stats are handled by the server.

As for improved graphics.... Lol.

Nope that was just for drm. Diablo 3 doesnt use internet on consoles. They fool you...

 

[lefantome]

We should stop using the world cloud and start using the right name:

is a centralized server multiplayer. Nothing new.

 

[EagleEyes]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

I'll give you one guess. Some people are trying hard these days to make sure the Xbox One has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Its sad, immature and doesn't reflect well on the community at all.

 

[ElTorro]

We should stop using the world cloud and start using the right name:

is a centralized server multiplayer. Nothing new.

Well, there are things that are not really economically feasable on traditional non-scaling backend infrastructures, for instance, Map/Reduce-based[1] computations.

But this is, again, nothing that is really feasable for time-critical computations or anything else supposed to be "offloaded" from the console that hasn't been offloaded before. But it's pretty usefull to crunch large data sets efficiently.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MapReduce

 

[stryke]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

I don't think anyone said it was a bad thing.

 

[SanguineShark]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

Reactionary reflex to MS trying to spin the cloud into making the Xbone seem four times as powerful? They could have avoided all of this deserved mockery if they had simply stated realistic benefits of their dedicated server system from the beginning.

It does sound neat, though I wonder how practical for developers not within MS terms.

 

[GunFingers]

We should stop using the world cloud and start using the right name:

is a centralized server multiplayer. Nothing new.

Ever heard of Microsoft Orleans? It's a pretty significant deal, and likely part of what MS is offering to XO devs. Likely, though not certain. The latest news I'm aware of on the Orleans front was a mass market blurb penned by Mary Jo Foley.


Whether or not Orleans is, in fact, part of this, your comment is ludicrous. You're arrogantly dismissing the work of Microsoft in the cloud computing field. One of the best funded, best staffed groups in the entire world. Certainly hosted multiplayer is part of this, but if you only pay attention to the talk of fast, flexible scalability then you should be aware that there is much more going on that is beneficial to devs and, ultimately, gamers.

 

[TrueBlueHero]

This pretty much indicates that Azure isn't any kind of amazing wonder-technology (like I wrote before and is pretty evident).

You don't get the point at all.

Respawn is an independend developer with no loyalties at all and specific requirements for their upcoming game.

They both asked MS AND Sony however it was MS that shared the same vision and could guarantee full support that's why they focused on that platform.

As stated in the developer's article MS obviously offers the simplicity Respawn was looking for.

Plus costs are a key point too. With Azure being a MS service/product they can offer prices that probaby can't be matched by other providers if they wish so.
That's a huge advantage that shouldn't be underestimated because that's what probably pushes a developer to go for dedicated servers (cost-efficiency).

 

[R3TRODYCE]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

Nailed it

 

[LittleJohnny]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

Its Xbox One news, what did you expect? something positive? Lol

 

[famousmortimer]

Respawn is an independend developer with no loyalties at all

Respawn and EA got a rumored 50 million dollars to make the game exclusive. You don't think that using MS talking points was part of that deal?



I think it's awesome that Microsoft is using Azure for multiplayer games. The problem they have is with their bullshit messaging. The first thing they ever said about the cloud was "it's like having 5 xbox ones at your disposal" like it was magically going to make your system 'infinitely' more powerful. That was an outright lie. We knew it was an outright lie, the internet at large called them on the outright lie... and now they are explaining what "the cloud" really does.


And the thing is... what it really does is AWESOME! Dedicated servers for cheap (not free... like some had us believe), the ability for them to adjust dynamically based on how many are playing the game and where. And the ability to use it for very basic offloaded tasks. All of this stuff is AWESOME! If this is what they announced instead of that complete sack of lies I think people in general would be much more enthusiastic about it. This is microsoft's blunder, not ours.

 

[Schweinehund]

I'm more disappointed about the fact that we probably won't be able to have privately run dedicated servers on the pc version, without some modification.

Yes dedicated servers are great, a big part of that is gamers running them, so you can have a consistent community, moderation and modifications.

 

[link1201]

A bit more clarity.

This is from the Respawn forum..LINK

 

[harSon]

Respawn and EA got a rumored 50 million dollars to make the game exclusive. You don't think that using MS talking points was part of that deal?

I think it's awesome that Microsoft is using Azure for multiplayer games. The problem they have is with their bullshit messaging. The first thing they ever said about the cloud was "it's like having 5 xbox ones at your disposal" like it was magically going to make your system 'infinitely' more powerful. That was an outright lie. We knew it was an outright lie, the internet at large called them on the outright lie... and now they are explaining what "the cloud" really does.


And the thing is... what it really does is AWESOME! Dedicated servers for cheap (not free... like some had us believe), the ability for them to adjust dynamically based on how many are playing the game and where. And the ability to use it for very basic offloaded tasks. All of this stuff is AWESOME! If this is what they announced instead of that complete sack of lies I think people in general would be much more enthusiastic about it. This is microsoft's blunder, not ours.

If by rumor you mean "information" lodged deep within Michael Patcher's butt cheeks, then yes, a rumor certainly exists containing that information.

 

[ElTorro]

Voices of reason.

 

[andycapps]

Confirming what everyone already knew.. Cloud = dedicated servers. Which are a good thing, and it's nice that Microsoft is providing them, but trying to act like 3 servers are sitting there to help out your Xbox One with the graphics on level 3 is misleading (Respawn didn't say this, Microsoft has implied it).

 

[Calen]

Confirming what everyone already knew.. Cloud = dedicated servers. Which are a good thing, and it's nice that Microsoft is providing them, but trying to act like 3 servers are sitting there to help out your Xbox One with the graphics on level 3 is misleading (Respawn didn't say this, Microsoft has implied it).

The "cloud" (I strongly dislike that term) is raw compute power. That part is absolutely true.

The fact that we're using it as our dedi solution in the short term should in no way imply that's all we (or anyone else) *could* use it for. People will figure out nifty stuff to do with it! F'rinstance, I'd love to explore offloading low frequency lighting calculations for things like updated "static" lighting when the level environment changes. That's pretty far from cloud = dedicated servers.

 

[link1201]

The "cloud" (I strongly dislike that term) is raw compute power. That part is absolutely true.

The fact that we're using it as our dedi solution in the short term should in no way imply that's all we (or anyone else) *could* use it for. People will figure out nifty stuff to do with it! F'rinstance, I'd love to explore offloading low frequency lighting calculations for things like updated "static" lighting when the level environment changes. That's pretty far from cloud = dedicated servers.

Thanks for posting...interesting.

 

[StudioTan]

The "cloud" (I strongly dislike that term) is raw compute power. That part is absolutely true.

The fact that we're using it as our dedi solution in the short term should in no way imply that's all we (or anyone else) *could* use it for. People will figure out nifty stuff to do with it! F'rinstance, I'd love to explore offloading low frequency lighting calculations for things like updated "static" lighting when the level environment changes. That's pretty far from cloud = dedicated servers.

Thank you for posting this.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

Really don't understand why lighting keeps coming up as a thing to offload onto the cloud. It's like one of the most time sensitive and data rich things there is. Completely the opposite of the sort of service you want on a remote server.

 

[Calen]

Really don't understand why lighting keeps coming up as a thing to offload onto the cloud. It's like one of the most time sensitive and data rich things there is. Completely the opposite of the sort of service you want on a remote server.

Not necessarily.

REAL TIME lighting is something you need to do in as few milliseconds per frame as possible. Many games still have a huge precalculation step when maps are compiled that does higher quality global illumination from static light sources, so the average quality of the map is much higher without having to spend the CPU/GPU to do all that stuff in real time. If you have a "cloud style" compute farm, you could also do some of that higher quality stuff as light sources move around your map. It wouldn't necessarily matter that your secondary bounces and the other more subtle things took a second or two to update themselves.

 

[8bits]

Ever heard of Microsoft Orleans? It's a pretty significant deal, and likely part of what MS is offering to XO devs. Likely, though not certain. The latest news I'm aware of on the Orleans front was a mass market blurb penned by Mary Jo Foley.


Whether or not Orleans is, in fact, part of this, your comment is ludicrous. You're arrogantly dismissing the work of Microsoft in the cloud computing field. One of the best funded, best staffed groups in the entire world. Certainly hosted multiplayer is part of this, but if you only pay attention to the talk of fast, flexible scalability then you should be aware that there is much more going on that is beneficial to devs and, ultimately, gamers.

But but the cloud is PR bs. The cloud is nothing more than dedicated servers and we have had those for years! Microsoft just hates the consumer and wants to screw everyone over. Plus Microsoft doesn't even have the largest "cloud" so theres must suck!

Gosh...ignorance must be bliss....

 

[andycapps]

The "cloud" (I strongly dislike that term) is raw compute power. That part is absolutely true.

The fact that we're using it as our dedi solution in the short term should in no way imply that's all we (or anyone else) *could* use it for. People will figure out nifty stuff to do with it! F'rinstance, I'd love to explore offloading low frequency lighting calculations for things like updated "static" lighting when the level environment changes. That's pretty far from cloud = dedicated servers.

Thanks for the response. I dislike the term too. I suppose the key thing that someone has to think about if they're wanting to use this kind of server side power is if they're making an online only game such as Titanfall or how they're going to code for if the player is playing the game without being connected to the internet. I'm curious to see where these consoles go in the coming years and what developers are able to do with the hardware and the infrastructure that Microsoft has.

I think the main problem is that nobody is currently seeing anything of what the Cloud is currently doing that dedicated servers don't do. We're hearing about potential, and most gamers remember the potential of the "digital locker" that Sony promised, or blast processing, how Microsoft promised Toy Story graphics on the Xbox, or how my toaster and refrigerator could help with providing extra processing power for my console. So while we are probably jaded and should give these things time to see what happens, when we hear nebulous terms such as "cloud" thrown around, our bullshit alarm gets triggered. Sorry if I came across as dismissive in my comments, and I appreciate your additional clarification.

 

[StudioTan]

Not necessarily.

REAL TIME lighting is something you need to do in as few milliseconds per frame as possible. Many games still have a huge precalculation step when maps are compiled that does higher quality global illumination from static light sources, so the average quality of the map is much higher without having to spend the CPU/GPU to do all that stuff in real time. If you have a "cloud style" compute farm, you could also do some of that higher quality stuff as light sources move around your map. It wouldn't necessarily matter that your secondary bounces and the other more subtle things took a second or two to update themselves.

So is this based on Microsoft's "Orleans" project? http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-orleans-cloud-programming-model-gets-a-halo-test-drive-7000009300/

Basically they are providing developers with raw computing power in the cloud and have built in ways to access that with the SDK? So you can use the processing for anything that isn't latency sensitive?

EDIT: I see someone else brought up Orleans as well.

 

[ElTorro]

So is this based on Microsoft's "Orleans" project? http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-orleans-cloud-programming-model-gets-a-halo-test-drive-7000009300/

This is a programming model similar to actors [1] introduced in the 70ies. The core idea is to structure a distributed program into discrete units of computation that have their own thread of control, contain all necessary data and interact with other actors through asynchronous message passing (in contrast to shared memory).

This is not conceptually new, but has benefits for distributed software systems. For instance, every part of the software is semantically distributed by default, no matter if it is actually distributed or not.

The programming language Erlang focused on this model. Other contemporary frameworks are, for instance, Scala Akka [3].

From a software engineering point of view, it has many benefits that make a distributed system more manageable and scalable. However, it is no magic. It does not increase your performance on a single task. On the contrary, it rather adds some overhead. A major limitation, performance-wise, is that states and data have to be copied every time. This makes the system more robust, manageable, and scalable, but again, it adds overhead.

So, it is no game changer. Again, I am not discrediting the concept (I am actually working on that very concept myself), but I would like people to realize that it is no secret sauce.

[1] Agha, G. 1986. Actors: A Model of Concurrent Computation in Distributed Systems. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
[2] Armstrong, J., Virding, R. and Williams, M. 1993. Concurrent programming in ERLANG. Prentice Hall.
[3] Haller, P. and Odersky, M. 2009. Scala Actors: Unifying thread-based and event-based programming. Theoretical Computer Science. 410, 2-3 (Feb. 2009), 202–220.

 

[ElTorro]

People will figure out nifty stuff to do with it! F'rinstance, I'd love to explore offloading low frequency lighting calculations for things like updated "static" lighting when the level environment changes. That's pretty far from cloud = dedicated servers.

Would it make sense for you, from an economical point of view, to run such things on a cloud infrastructure that you have to pay for, even if the final game won't be changed significantly by the lighting employed?

 

[inpHilltr8r]

Not necessarily.

REAL TIME lighting is something you need to do in as few milliseconds per frame as possible. Many games still have a huge precalculation step when maps are compiled that does higher quality global illumination from static light sources, so the average quality of the map is much higher without having to spend the CPU/GPU to do all that stuff in real time. If you have a "cloud style" compute farm, you could also do some of that higher quality stuff as light sources move around your map. It wouldn't necessarily matter that your secondary bounces and the other more subtle things took a second or two to update themselves.

Well that makes sense. I talked to one of our lighting guys as well (I'm gameplay, not rendering). The actual set of coefficients you get back is pretty small, and cpu is cheap these days. The cost is mostly from i/o for the source data. So if you have the entire level including graphics, not just collision, in memory, it's entirely possible. Although it's still going to be a challenge. Our light baking takes anywhere from several minutes to an hour, and we have a large local farm. So I'm still skeptical as to the practicality, but the theory is reasonable. I wish you the best of luck with that! Looking forward to the game too.

 

[EGM1966]

That's the clearest explanation of anything XBone related so far - quite the relief at this point.

Have to say at this point it sounds like we're getting the benefits of Dedicated Servers more than anything else at this point, with the potential for "other stuff" later. Still, I'll take dedicated servers any day.

 

[schwabdizzle]

I think all of this is just a bunch of PR bullshit that was written in the contract for exclusivity between MS and Respawn. I am sure MS paid quite a bit of money for Titanfall and in the contract before payment, there is something in there written saying Respawn has to say its only possible with the cloud. I am calling BS on all this shit.

 

[Marleyman]

The "cloud" (I strongly dislike that term) is raw compute power. That part is absolutely true.

The fact that we're using it as our dedi solution in the short term should in no way imply that's all we (or anyone else) *could* use it for. People will figure out nifty stuff to do with it! F'rinstance, I'd love to explore offloading low frequency lighting calculations for things like updated "static" lighting when the level environment changes. That's pretty far from cloud = dedicated servers.

Awesome post; please tell more people in the industry to post on here as the cacaphony of people who know nothing but post the same drivel outweighs the ones who actually know.

 

[Marleyman]

I think all of this is just a bunch of PR bullshit that was written in the contract for exclusivity between MS and Respawn. I am sure MS paid quite a bit of money for Titanfall and in the contract before payment, there is something in there written saying Respawn has to say its only possible with the cloud. I am calling BS on all this shit.

So people who actually work with it are saying what they are saying because they are paid to? You know what, I now think YOU are paid to trash it...who is paying you?

 

[Metalmurphy]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

People are bent on Microsoft's spin on this.

 

[schwabdizzle]

So people who actually work with it are saying what they are saying because they are paid to? You know what, I now think YOU are paid to trash it...who is paying you?

So you know they are telling the truth? If someone gave me a lot of money, I would say anything to make them sound good.....wouldn't you?

 

[Grief.exe]

Can we at least agree that a console manufacturer having large infrastructure support at a subsidized price to devs/pubs is a good thing?

I'm really trying to wonder why people are so bent on trying to spin this.

Spend less time and money worrying about getting dedicated servers available. More time working on the perfect game.

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[Marleyman]

So you know they are telling the truth? If someone gave me a lot of money, I would say anything to make them sound good.....wouldn't you?

I take their word for it, by backing things up in here, over your baseless accusation. Once again though, who is paying YOU to talk it down and say it is BS?

 

[schwabdizzle]

I take their word for it, by backing things up in here, over your baseless accusation. Once again though, who is paying YOU to talk it down and say it is BS?

Well I do not buy in to the whole "not possible without the cloud". I am not trashing it, I am saying its a bullshit PR stunt.

 

[Suikoguy]

Wow, ElTorro is still trying to fight back the bullshit.

Dedication!

I've gotten too frustrated to fight back the PR Bullshit, as it's the same names in every thread.

But seriously, I consider myself a novice in regards to the subject, but ElTorro is an expert.

 

[Vol5]

The "cloud" (I strongly dislike that term) is raw compute power. That part is absolutely true.

The fact that we're using it as our dedi solution in the short term should in no way imply that's all we (or anyone else) *could* use it for. People will figure out nifty stuff to do with it! F'rinstance, I'd love to explore offloading low frequency lighting calculations for things like updated "static" lighting when the level environment changes. That's pretty far from cloud = dedicated servers.

So are you using the cloud to do low frequency calculations in TitanFall, or is it simply a case of "we could"?

 

[Takuya]

A bit more clarity.

This is from the Respawn forum..LINK

So there you have it, there is nothing special about it, it's just there.

 

[Twinduct]

Kinda sad to see more people being up in arms due to bullshit marketing and not about the actual issues something like Azure currently brings into the market.

 

[StudioTan]

Wow, ElTorro is still trying to fight back the bullshit.

Dedication!

I've gotten too frustrated to fight back the PR Bullshit, as it's the same names in every thread.

But seriously, I consider myself a novice in regards to the subject, but ElTorro is an expert.

And Calen is what?

 

[lastflowers]

And Calen is what?

an idiot console warrior, clearly.

EDIT: [sarcasm]

 

[Crisco]

I still don't get why they don't let console gamers host their own dedicated servers. PC games have been been doing this for decades. There are literally hundreds of hosting services ranging anywhere from $15/month to $70/month depending on player count for your own dedicated server that is hooked into a games ranking and matchmaking service. Hell, with broadband internet so ubiquitous, actually hosting your own server at home is easier than ever. It's not like the game data consumes much bandwidth, certainly less than any number of on demand video services.

 

[andycapps]

And Calen is what?

an idiot console warrior, clearly.

I can't tell which is sarcastic and which isn't but Calen is a programmer at Respawn. I think he probably knows more about this subject than any of us.

 

[yellow submarine]

Awesome post; please tell more people in the industry to post on here as the cacaphony of people who know nothing but post the same drivel outweighs the ones who actually know.

I'm going to try and explain why more devs don't post, but obviously it doesn't apply to the outliers who do.

Most companies have strict restrictions on how you can interact with the public as an "official" or named company rep without PR involvement. Those people who do it without PR's OK are usually subject to being fired if they say something that could be construed as negative. That's unless you're really high up (e.g. Don Mattrick going completely off message and telling you to buy a 360) or simply DGAF like Cliffy etc.

That's the reason why you don't hear self-identified devs posting. Because they don't want to be Adam Orth #2. Which is the smart thing to do, because GAF doesn't write your paychecks.

You'll hear plenty from anonymous accounts though, but then of course there's no way to tell if someone is who they say they are.

Just trying to help you understand why less devs post here with their real identities.

 

[link1201]

an idiot console warrior, clearly.

..really?

I found him to be a willingly and informative participate in a discussion about a game he is currently working on. I appreciate him taking the time to do so.

 

[ElTorro]

And Calen is what?

The discussion about Orleans and lighting in the cloud are separate. Just saying, before I get assigned to a camp...

 

[StudioTan]

I can't tell which is sarcastic and which isn't but Calen is a programmer at Respawn. I think he probably knows more about this subject than any of us.

That was both of our points (in case you don't know LastFlowers also works for MS, albeit on Windows Phone)

The discussion about Orleans and lighting in the cloud are separate. Just saying, before I get assigned to a camp...

No, I find find you insight valuable. I was simply asking a question, the Orleans stuff sounds interesting and I was curious if that was what MS is using with XB1.