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[SolidSnakex]

Where is that image from, and what does it mean? They can't seriously mean that it took some teams 12 month to render their first triangle on the PS3? I've heard some horror stories about the PS2 architecture and lack of APIs early on, but while early PS3 devkits were a bit cumbersome I've never really heard anything about any issues getting its GPU up and running.

And no of course that's not because x86. If there's any truth to it, it's about Sony being ready with decent APIs earlier

He mentioned in the presentation that the time to triangle that he's referring to is the time that it'd take a developer to create an engine that comes close to what the hardware is capable of in terms of triangle count. That's how he judges hardware complexity.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

- Tools for x86 platforms are still more mature than for Cell
- Not only programmers, but also artists have to worry less about staying within a given memory/polygon/texture budget, and can focus more on content creation

Now, in what way is making a given game for PS4 harder than for PS3?

(FWIW, I really don't care what platforms Atlus targets, I always thought the post-2 Persona entries were incredibly overrated)

Well, context matters too. What sort of experience does Atlus have with x86? Actually what's the state of documention for x86 tools in Japanese generally? Would it be more difficult for Atlus specifically to shift everything over to this architecture, or easier to just keep going on the one they know already?

 

[wsippel]

Do we know who Index' creditors are? I'm asking because Nintendo often lends money to 3rd parties, and in light of their collaborations, I wouldn't be all that surprised if they were one of their creditors. Even if Index only received an advance payment for SMTxFE, they'd most likely have to return the money if they can't finish the project, effectively making Nintendo a creditor.

 

[Durante]

Well, context matters too. What sort of experience does Atlus have with x86? Actually what's the state of documention for x86 tools in Japanese generally? Would it be more difficult for Atlus specifically to shift everything over to this architecture, or easier to just keep going on the one they know already?

Those are questions I can't answer. But given their lack of consistent output on PS3, there at least seem to be no obvious indications that they had a productive content creation pipeline in place on that platform.

 

[mclem]

- Tools for x86 platforms are still more mature than for Cell
- Not only programmers, but also artists have to worry less about staying within a given memory/polygon/texture budget, and can focus more on content creation

Now, in what way is making a given game for PS4 harder than for PS3?

Don't forget that we're dealing with a situation where they already have a PS3 engine. I think that's a significant factor.

The other thing I should highlight is that we're talking about Persona here; unless we're dealing with a wild'n'crazy genre shift, it's a turn-based JRPG. One of the biggest issues I had with my time in development was, well, the player. You couldn't trust 'em! In an FPS (say), having to safeguard against all the crazy stuff a player may choose to do is a challenge; they might abuse physices, they might get themselves into a weird location, they might search out a spot that allows them to fall out of the world; there's such a massive range of elements active at any given time that you have a combinatorial explosion of complexity which you need to safeguard against at any given time.

Persona isn't really like that. The actual player agency at any given point is extremely low, and extremely confined. Combat is simple and deterministic (from a coding standpoint, I hasten to add!). As for exploring the world; you've got a player on a map, fair enough, but there's not a lot that can interfere with the player at any given time. At *most* I could see Persona having the world exploration complexity of, say, Yakuza, and even then the actual things that can affect the player character are very few and far between.

I will stick my neck out, here: The challenges Catherine posed for gameplay programming were probably greater than the challenges a Persona would pose for gameplay programming. And they've conquered those. I should make absolutely clear: I'm not talking *design* (the game design of Persona will be more complex than Catherine's), but the difficulty of implementing that design.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Those are questions I can't answer. But given their lack of consistent output on PS3, there at least seem to be no obvious indications that they had a productive content creation pipeline in place on that platform.

I thought that was specifically one of the intents for Catherine?

Atlus also developed 3 Wii games and have one Wii U game in development, so they have more experience with Power Architecture game production than just Catherine too. Meanwhile they've developed no x86 based games themselves, right?

 

[duckroll]

Do we know who Index' creditors are? I'm asking because Nintendo often lends money to 3rd parties, and in light of their collaborations, I wouldn't be all that surprised if they were one of their creditors. Even if Index only received an advance payment for SMTxFE, they'd most likely have to return the money if they can't finish the project, effectively making Nintendo a creditor.

Index has debts amounting to about 245 million USD. The creditors who matter are almost certainly banks and/or investment firms who they took out loans from.

 

[mclem]

Index has debts amounting to about 245 million USD. The creditors who matter are almost certainly banks and/or investment firms who they took out loans from.

Would any saviour have to take *all* those debts on?

 

[duckroll]

Would any saviour have to take *all* those debts on?

Nope.

 

[Durante]

Atlus also developed 3 Wii games and have one Wii U game in development, so they have more experience with Power Architecture game production than just Catherine too. Meanwhile they've developed no x86 based games themselves, right?

CPU ISA is mostly irrelevant, particularly for a "non-AAA" dev like Atlus. From that perspective developing for PS3 and PS4 is probably more similar than developing for 2 entirely different platform holder's APIs/toolchains, even if the platforms feature a somewhat similar ISA.

In the end, I don't think that they'll make a platform decisions based on technical merits anyway. My point was simply that there are also no technical or budgetary reasons why PS4 development should inherently be more expensive than PS3 -- unless you are making an "AAAA" game.

 

[wsippel]

Index has debts amounting to about 245 million USD. The creditors who matter are almost certainly banks and/or investment firms who they took out loans from.

That's quite a bit more than I expected, no wonder they're effectively bankrupt...

 

[YuriLowell]

C'mon Sega buy them, Sega parent company Sammy is rolling in cash, and Sega recently bought a THQ studio at auction, so maybe they will buy this too.

If Sega bought them we would never get any games stateside.

 

[beril]

I thought that was specifically one of the intents for Catherine?

Atlus also developed 3 Wii games and have one Wii U game in development, so they have more experience with Power Architecture game production than just Catherine too. Meanwhile they've developed no x86 based games themselves, right?

Eh isn't Catherine using Gamebryo? Which is as good as dead, and they probably wouldn't want to reuse regardless.They announced that they were working on a new internal engine in 2011. But yea there's no way it's for PS4, certainly not exclusively. They stuck with the PS2 until 2008, and has barely released anything for this generation; they're not the company to rush to new consoles.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

CPU ISA is mostly irrelevant, particularly for a "non-AAA" dev like Atlus. From that perspective developing for PS3 and PS4 is probably more similar than developing for 2 entirely different platform holder's APIs/toolchains, even if the platform feature a somewhat similar ISA.

In the end, I don't think that they'll make a platform decisions based on technical merits anyway. My point was simply that there are also no technical or budgetary reasons why PS4 development should inherently be more expensive than PS3 -- unless you are making an "AAAA" game.

Ideally sure, but again, how relevant is that to Atlus' case specifically? It doesn't matter if PS4 development isn't generally more expensive than PS3, it matters if it would be for a small Japanese developer who's actually delivered PS3 product like Atlus. There aren't budgetary concerns with starting ground up on a new architecture?

 

[kirby_fox]

If anyone is buying Atlus out, it will be a long time it sounds before they're even put up to auction. If anything, a company would invest money and own a share of Atlus rather than having it as a whole- something I see none of the big 3 doing.

And even if Atlus did go up for sale, I don't see the big 3 doing anything then either. After THQ went up for auction and no reaction from them I don't see Atlus being a major player either. Their titles are somewhat niche in the marketplace.

Investors will likely be someone outside of gaming, rather than inside. And that's even if they need investors, I'm not sure if they would be allowed to spinoff as their own company or not.

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

Index has debts amounting to about 245 million USD. The creditors who matter are almost certainly banks and/or investment firms who they took out loans from.

That surely means almost no one from the big three console manufacturers would buy them put. Maybe they will just buy the IP's once they go bankrupt.

 

[wildfire]

Index has debts amounting to about 245 million USD. The creditors who matter are almost certainly banks and/or investment firms who they took out loans from.

Where did you dig up this information?

 

[onilink88]

Hoping for the best possible outcome for Atlus in this mess.

You really don't want Nintendo to buy Atlus. They ruined Monolithsoft when they bought them. The same would happen to Atlus.

How the fuck did Nintendo ruin Monolith?

 

[Samurai_Heart]

You really don't want Nintendo to buy Atlus. They ruined Monolithsoft when they bought them. The same would happen to Atlus.

Please elaborate

Where did you dig up this information?

http://www.screwattack.com/news/atlus-parent-company-has-filed-bankruptcy

 

[FluxWaveZ]

If anyone is buying Atlus out, it will be a long time it sounds before they're even put up to auction. If anything, a company would invest money and own a share of Atlus rather than having it as a whole- something I see none of the big 3 doing.

Why would it take a long time when Index themselves are saying they're looking for a solution concerning the games division ASAP?

 

[ugoo18]

You really don't want Nintendo to buy Atlus. They ruined Monolithsoft when they bought them. The same would happen to Atlus.

Im going to assume that's sarcasm?

 

[Flarin]

I am avoiding this thread as much as I can. I refuse to believe something bad can happen to ATLUS. The denial is strong here. Hoping for the best.

Ditto. Until they officially say they're closing up shop or get bought out I refuse to accept the end of Atlus.

 

[Lunar15]

Why would it take a long time when Index themselves are saying they're looking for a solution concerning the games division ASAP?

Not to mention, in matters of debt and bankruptcy, things move fast. People don't like waiting for money.

 

[Malvingt2]

You really don't want Nintendo to buy Atlus. They ruined Monolithsoft when they bought them. The same would happen to Atlus.

how did Nintendo do that?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

My money, if there was a pool going, would be on either SCE or Tencent Holdings.

 

[Meelow]

You really don't want Nintendo to buy Atlus. They ruined Monolithsoft when they bought them. The same would happen to Atlus.

Lol what?

 

[Dorj]

You really don't want Nintendo to buy Atlus. They ruined Monolithsoft when they bought them. The same would happen to Atlus.

If by "ruined" yo meant "letting them produce the best jrpg ever" than by all means Nintendo, go on, ruin Atlus hard.

 

[Coconut]

My money is on them being picked up by marvelous entertainment.

 

[funkystudent]

Microsoft wouldnt make a lot of sense and it would pretty much kill all the neat portable games Atlus does which would suck. But if they are going to a 1th party I am going to say MS purely because we can not have nice things.


But I think its more likely they merge with some other mid tier Japanese publisher.

 

[Cactus]

While I'd prefer Atlus to avoid being acquired by certain companies, my main concern is that nobody bites and their IPs/talent are distributed.

Everyone here seems to be against Nintendo/Sony, but if no third-party company has interest, I'd take Ninendo/Sony exclusive games over the death or distribution of Atlus IPs.

I mean, can you imagine Persona 5 from Nomura and SMT5 from Imageepoch?

 

[wsippel]

My money, if there was a pool going, would be on either SCE or Tencent Holdings.

I'd consider Nintendo more likely than SCE because they already seem to have a pretty close business relationship, but I agree on Tencent. Definitely one of the most likely candidates in my opinion.

 

[SpeedySwaf]

I think the reason why people were bringing up Sony and Nintendo so much is because they're the most prominent Japanese companies in gaming, and have the money to make a purchase like this (if it comes down to that). Japanese third parties that could feasibly make an acquisition are either relatively obscure (Gung Ho), or have reputations that aren't all the rosey anymore (Capcom, Square Enix). Western third parties would have zero interest in the series.

Whoever Atlus ends up with, it'll just have to be someone who's willing to let them do their own thing at their own pace. Their titles may be niche, but given the number of sequels each has, they're obviously successful to some degree and can operate virtually independently.

 

[RPGamer92]

While I'd prefer Atlus to avoid being acquired by certain companies, my main concern is that nobody bites and their IPs/talent are distributed.

Everyone here seems to be against Nintendo/Sony, but if no third-party company has interest, I'd take Ninendo/Sony exclusive games over the death or distribution of Atlus IPs.

I mean, can you imagine Persona 5 from Nomura and SMT5 from Imageepoch?

Mara: now with more belts and zippers!

 

[Sseklebeast]

Ouch if Mara was caught in one of those zippers.

 

[Meia]

Ouch if Mara was caught in one of those zippers.

Ao rated confirmed.

 

[Seik]

You really don't want Nintendo to buy Atlus. They ruined Monolithsoft when they bought them. The same would happen to Atlus.

Dat heavy blasphemy.

 

[pirata]

Except they've got an engine that works on both Cell and 360 hardware

Now, it's entirely possible that Catherine's basically held together with spit and blu-tak and would fall apart if the engine was pushed into being used for a different title, but I was under the impression that part of the point of developing Catherine was to give them precisely that option.

They're not using the Catherine engine anymore.

And, yeah, the Catherine project started out as a technical test for P5, which makes their sudden change of engine suspect. I think there's a good chance that the game either became next-gen or cross-gen with the engine switch. Not a sure thing, of course, but a good chance. A few reasons why before people ridicule me:

1. It's in Atlus' interest to create a bunch of SMT demon models that they can use for a whole generation.
2. Persona (and to a lesser extent, SMT in general) is a far bigger thing than it was when P4 released, especially outside of Japan. Unfortunately, the series has been relegated to systems that no one has or is paying any attention to outside of Japan (PSP, Vita, PS2 years after most people had upgraded and right before backwards-compatibility was phased out). If it came out on a popular system, people would pay more attention to it and be able to actually play it.
3. No backwards compatibly means that people would have to drag out their old consoles to play it, and the Persona audience probably overlaps a good deal with people who will upgrade in the first year or two of the PS4's life.
4. Being a next-gen RPG will probably get it a good deal of attention.
5. Judging from comments from the creators, this will probably be their most ambitious game ever.
6. I think Persona team is starting to think of themselves as world-class developers (and not undeservingly, in my opinion), as shown by their fancy new studio logo and stuff. Or maybe not. Just speculation.
7. P5 wouldn't be the only game to make the jump in 2011: both Versus and the Last Guardian (the latter heavily rumored) were switched to PS4 in that year.
8. The mods on GAF have been hinting at it for a while.

I could go on, but you get the idea. In short, P5 on PS4 is not a crazy proposition.

 

[w1gglyjones]

I don't give a damn about Persona 4, but I just preordered a copy of Shin Megami Tensei IV for that very reason.



You really don't want Nintendo to buy Atlus. They ruined Monolithsoft when they bought them. The same would happen to Atlus.

A fraction of Monolith Soft is owned by the founders/developers. Nintendo didn't ruin shit. Monolith is being run the way everyone wants. Stop speading lies.

 

[crazygambit]

The importance people give to x86 is silly.

Whatever issues people may have had with Cell really has nothing to with it being PPC rather than x86. The PS4 CPU has a more straight forward setup in general, but I can imagine having 8 cores could still be a pretty huge hassle.



Where is that image from, and what does it mean? They can't seriously mean that it took some teams 12 month to render their first triangle on the PS3? I've heard some horror stories about the PS2 architecture and lack of APIs early on, but while early PS3 devkits were a bit cumbersome I've never really heard anything about any issues getting its GPU up and running.

And no of course that's not because x86. If there's any truth to it, it's about Sony being ready with decent APIs earlier

Time to triangle means the time it takes to create a render engine that comes close to the theoretical maximum performance of the hardware.

For PS3 that meant assembly on the SPUs. It was described by Cerny as solving a rubix cube for everyone of your algorithms.

 

[bonercop]

seeing y'all freaking out over this is mad entertaining. I'm more interested in seeing the gaf reaction to what's going to happen to Atlus than what's going to happen to Atlus.

 

[wrowa]

I'm not sure what Sony's interest in Atlus would be in the first place. Atlus' games don't sell a lot, even their most popular franchise barely moves a million units worldwide if at all. At the same time there's a relatively big publishing arm attached to the company, especially in the US, that Sony would need to pay for without having a use for it.

I honestly fail to see what would Atlus make a worthwhile investment for them.

I can at least somewhat understand the people throwing Nintendo's name around, since the company has alread some sort of partnership going on that they are financially invested in, but even then the burdens seem still too huge as that a Nintendo buyout would seem likely to me.

 

[Logash]

I'm not sure what Sony's interest in Atlus would be in the first place. Atlus' games don't sell a lot, even their most popular franchise barely moves a million units worldwide if at all. At the same time there's a relatively big publishing arm attached to the company, especially in the US, that Sony would need to pay for without having a use for it.

I honestly fail to see what would Atlus make a worthwhile investment for them.

I can at least somewhat understand the people throwing Nintendo's name around, since the company has alread some sort of partnership going on that they are financially invested in, but even then the burdens seem still too huge as that a Nintendo buyout would seem likely to me.

Not to mention that they are bleeding money and are investing in a very powerful console that they will probably lose money on in the first year. I don't think Sony will buy them but I'm also not sure Nintendo would either. They have that huge war chest but do you think they would really spend money on a company that does niche game like that. I don't know.

 

[Meelow]

Nintendo buying Atlus would be interesting.

Nintendo/Atlus vs Sony/Square.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Nintendo buying Atlus would be interesting.

Nintendo/Atlus vs Sony/Square.

Heh. Sony and Square. That's cute.

 

[Meelow]

Heh. Sony and Square. That's cute.

To this day, I'm surprised Sony never bought Square outright.

 

[Logash]

Nintendo buying Atlus would be interesting.

Nintendo/Atlus vs Sony/Square.

Add Monolith to that. They arguably made the best JRPG this generation and showed up Square on a system that is way weaker. To be fair though, 15 looks amazing and I can't wait to check it out.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

To this day, I'm surprised Sony never bought Square outright.

They probably could have, but The Spirits Within pretty much tanked that plan. They still do own a minority stake in the company, but not nearly enough to have any influence any longer.

 

[w1gglyjones]

People keep saying how Sony or Nintendo should buy Atlus because it makes sense for them.

No one actually is trying to think about what makes sense for Index and Atlus. They will decide who to sell to, so they will sell to the place that is the best fit for Atlus.

 

[gngf123]

Nintendo buying Atlus would be interesting.

Nintendo/Atlus vs Sony/Square.

Add Monolith Soft, and move Square into a more neutral position.

Sony get Final Fantasy, Nintendo get Dragon Quest (kind of, damn localization).

 

[Meelow]

Add Monolith to that. They arguably made the best JRPG this generation and showed up Square on a system that is way weaker. To be fair though, 15 looks amazing and I can't wait to check it out.

Add Monolith Soft, and move Square into a more neutral position.

Sony get Final Fantasy, Nintendo get Dragon Quest (kind of, damn localization).

Nintendo/Atlus/Monolith vs Sony//Level 5(console wise), Nintendo-Square-Sony.

They probably could have, but The Spirits Within pretty much tanked that plan. They still do own a minority stake in the company, but not nearly enough to have any influence any longer.

What happened with The Spirits Within?