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U.S. taps half-billion German phone calls, internet links in month: report

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Espresso

Banned
The United States taps half a billion phone calls, emails and text messages in Germany in a typical month and has classed its biggest European ally as a target similar to China, according to secret U.S. documents quoted by a German newsmagazine.

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The revelations of alleged U.S. surveillance programs based on documents taken by fugitive former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden have raised a political furor in the United States and abroad over the balance between privacy rights and national security.

Exposing the latest details in a string of reputed spying programs, Der Spiegel quoted from an internal NSA document which it said its reporters had seen.

The document Spiegel cited showed that the United States categorized Germany as a "third-class" partner and that surveillance there was stronger than in any other EU country, similar in extent to China, Iraq or Saudi-Arabia.

"We can attack the signals of most foreign third-class partners, and we do it too," Der Spiegel quoted a passage in the NSA document as saying.

It said the document showed that the NSA monitored phone calls, text messages, emails and internet chat contributions and has saved the metadata - that is, the connections, not the content - at its headquarters.

On an average day, the NSA monitored about 20 million German phone connections and 10 million internet data sets, rising to 60 million phone connections on busy days, the report said.

While it had been known from disclosures by Snowden that the United States tapped data in Germany, the extent was previously unclear.

News of the U.S. cyber-espionage program Prism and the British equivalent Tempora have outraged Germans, who are highly sensitive to government monitoring having lived through the Stasi secret police in the former communist East Germany and with lingering memories of the Gestapo of Hitler's Nazi regime.

A Spiegel report on Saturday that the NSA had spied on European Union offices caused outrage among EU policymakers, with some even calling for a suspension to talks for a free trade agreement between Washington and the EU.

In France, Der Spiegel reported, the United States taps about 2 million connection data a day. Only Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand were explicitly exempted from spy attacks.

Snowden, a U.S. citizen, fled the United States to Hong Kong in May, a few weeks before the publication in the Guardian and the Washington Post of details he provided about secret U.S. government surveillance of internet and phone traffic.

He has been holed up in a Moscow airport transit area for a week after U.S. authorities revoked his passport. The leftist government of Ecuador is reviewing his request for asylum.

Source: Reuters

Update:

Leading trans-Atlantic analysts have reacted with shock and horror to the weekend revelations by SPIEGEL regarding the extent to which the American National Security Agency (NSA) spied on Germany and on European Union facilities.

"This is a very serious problem for the trans-Atlantic relationship," said Heather Conley, director of the Europe program for the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. "It will make Washington's work with Europe more difficult on a full range of issues, such as (the trans-Atlantic free trade agreement). Add this to a pre-election environment (in Germany) and the challenge becomes greater."

The revelations are "very awkward," agrees Charles Kupchan of Georgetown University. In the administration of President Bill Clinton, Kupchan was in charge of European issues on the National Security Council. Jack Janes, from the influential American Institute for Contemporary German Studies, says: "US Secretary of State John Kerry and possibly the president will have to address this publicly soon. They can't stall any longer."

A statement from German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Monday further indicated the volatility of the situation. "The monitoring of friends -- this is unacceptable, it can't be tolerated. We're no longer in the Cold War," the chancellor said through a spokesman. Merkel confirmed that she had already voiced her displeasure to the White House over the weekend and has demanded a full explanation.

An NSA spokesman on Sunday said that European concerns will be addressed using diplomatic channels. He added that the NSA does not comment on specifics ofintelligence gathering operations but said "as a matter of policy, we have made clear that the United States gathers foreign intelligence of the type gathered by all nations."

Vague Statements

US President Barack Obama, who is currently on a visit to Africa, has consistently defended the American data monitoring program, the size of which has been revealed in recent weeks due to information obtained by whistleblower Edward Snowden. During a visit to Germany in June, Obama said that "the encroachment on privacy has been strictly limited by a court-approved process." He has several times said that the surveillance program is tightly focused and exists to defend the US from terrorism.

Such a vague statement, however, will likely no longer be enough given the revelations of widespread spying on European Union facilities as well as on allies both in Europe and elsewhere. "The US must reach out to European capitals quickly and provide an in-depth consultation on the NSA program," Conley says.

Sources familiar with the ongoing discussion in the White House regarding the revelations say that the Obama administration will attempt to make clear that the surveillance measures were carried out in coordination with the secret services of other countries. It remains questionable, however, whether any countries will want to admit to such cooperation. European politicians, it seems certain, will have no interest in making such an admission.

There is also plenty of room for trans-Atlantic strife when it comes to Edward Snowden and the degree to which Europeans base their complaints about American spying on information attributed to him. "Using him as the basis of accusations is going to raise tensions in Congress and the White House with Europe as long as he is seen as a criminal in the US," Janes says. "It may not matter what his revelations say." But, Janes says, there is growing Congressional pressure on the Obama administration to tighten regulations relating to secret surveillance programs.

'Now We Don't Trust Him'

Trans-Atlantic observers see the planned US-EU free-trade agreement as being a potential victim of the spying revelations published this weekend by SPIEGEL and on Monday by the Guardian. Known as the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), economists on both sides of the ocean hope the deal will provide a significant boost to European and American economies.

But the fury in Europe over NSA's overreach -- and ensuing suspicion -- could ultimately endanger the project. Already, European Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding has called the deal into doubt and concerns have been voiced that the US has also engaged in industrial espionage. Furthermore, the accelerating spat has clearly shown that Europeans have a radically different attitude to digital privacy and data protection than do Americans. Europeans, for example, have long been demanding stricter regulations for Facebook and Google.

Green Party politician Malte Spitz attracted attention over the weekend with a guest editorial in the New York Times in which he reminded readers of the demonstrations in Germany against data retention for six months in accordance with a European Union directive. "Given our history, we Germans are not willing to trade in our liberty for potentially better security. Germans have experienced firsthand what happens when the government knows too much about someone."

The title of his piece: "Germans Loved Obama. Now We Don't Trust Him

Source: Der Spiegel
 

syko de4d

Member
It´s really suprising how much more they spy on germany than on other countrys

The NSA allegedly monitored about 20 million German phone calls and 10 million internet connections on an average day, and up to 60 million phone calls on busy days, totaling a half-billion monitored communications in a month, according to the latest report.
vs.
In France, the NSA reportedly only monitored about 2 million connections per day.

thats a huge difference, the only reason can be economic espionage...
 

TCRS

Banned
According to the Spiegel the spying was concentrated on west and south Germany, the indsutrial heartland of Germany... this can only be industrial spying, it doesn't make any sense otherwise.
 
N

NinjaFridge

Unconfirmed Member
According to the Spiegel the spying was concentrated on west and south Germany, the indsutrial heartland of Germany... this can only be industrial spying, it doesn't make any sense otherwise.

Must've been the chinese
 

syko de4d

Member
According to the Spiegel the spying was concentrated on west and south Germany, the indsutrial heartland of Germany... this can only be industrial spying, it doesn't make any sense otherwise.

What? Never heard of Bavarian Terrorist? Oktoberfest is just a big recruiting for new Terrorists.
 

Samyy

Member
It´s really suprising how much more they spy on germany than on other countrys


vs.


thats a huge difference, the only reason can be economic espionage...

Its better for America if the rest of the world has a healthy economy?
I don't know where your getting economic espionage from
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
You guys don't think other countries are doing the same shit to us?

The NSA is Supposed to do these things
 

TCRS

Banned
Its better for America if the rest of the world has a healthy economy?
I don't know where your getting economic espionage from

See my post above. Spying is concentrated on west and south, where the industry is. I also posted this in the other thread:

The Echelon spy system, whose existence has only recently been acknowledged by US officials, is capable of hoovering up millions of phone calls, faxes and emails a minute.

Its owners insist the system is dedicated to intercepting messages passed between terrorists and organised criminals.

But a report published by the European Parliament in February alleges that Echelon twice helped US companies gain a commercial advantage over European firms.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm published on Thursday, 6 July, 2000

Even back then 'terrorists' was the favourite excuse. Some people might understand now why we Europeans are so uneasy about this, especially Germany. We're being monitored at the same level as Saudi-Arabia and China and they are going for our source of prosperity. Fucked up.
 

wrowa

Member
According to the Spiegel the spying was concentrated on west and south Germany, the indsutrial heartland of Germany... this can only be industrial spying, it doesn't make any sense otherwise.

But Obama said we're friends. He even took of his jacket, because "We can be a little more informal among friends."

It's kind of sad that we're just going to have to accept this. There's nothing you can do, the US is still too important of a business partner as that anyone is able to risk having a healthy relationship to the country.
 
See my post above. Spying is concentrated on west and south, where the industry is. I also posted this in the other thread:

Echelon evolved out of Cold War espionage arrangements set up by the US and UK in 1948, and later bringing in Australia, Canada and New Zealand, in their capacity as Britain's Commonwealth partners.

Ah yes, the usual suspects.

Note that all 5 of these countries routinely run/participate in various data collection programs.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Got to prevent that 4th Reich from ever happening.

The thread title is disingenuous when it comes to the size. There aren't even a half billion phones in Germany. You can't say the same phone is hacked twice and list that as two phones.
 

KevinRo

Member
Ah yes, the usual suspects.

Note that all 5 of these countries routinely run/participate in various data collection programs.

They're called the 5 eyes for a reason.

And boohooo big bad U.S.A spying on countries. Only if we lived in a world where no country has a spy agency.
 
Got to prevent that 4th Reich from ever happening.

The thread title is disingenuous when it comes to the size. There aren't even a half billion phones in Germany. You can't say the same phone is hacked twice and list that as two phones.

On an average day, the NSA monitored about 20 million German phone connections and 10 million internet data sets, rising to 60 million phone connections on busy days, the report said.

Its in the article.
 
Got to prevent that 4th Reich from ever happening.

The thread title is disingenuous when it comes to the size. There aren't even a half billion phones in Germany. You can't say the same phone is hacked twice and list that as two phones.

The thread title doesn't say half a billion phones, it's phone links.
 

iddqd

Member
Great stuff, spying on other countries to get some technological scoop but it's all in the name of SAFETY and security.

This stuff would have been bonkers in any sci fi novel 20 years ago.

And what will be the repercussions? My guess is zero.
 
In France, Der Spiegel reported, the United States taps about 2 million connection data a day. Only Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand were explicitly exempted from spy attacks.

I like how Canada is exempt from American spying yet Americans are the ones that blather on about being free. But of course we have our own governments spying on us to some extent so American intervention is hardly needed :(
 

Kusagari

Member
I like how Canada is exempt from American spying yet Americans are the ones that blather on about being free. But of course we have our own governments spying on us to some extent so American intervention is hardly needed :(

The only reason Canada, and those other countries, aren't spied on by the US is because your own government is spying on you and giving the info to the US.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Great stuff, spying on other countries to get some technological scoop but it's all in the name of SAFETY and security.

This stuff would have been bonkers in any sci fi novel 20 years ago.

And what will be the repercussions? My guess is zero.

Haha no. Maybe in sheer volume I'll give you
 

Jacobi

Banned
This shit is inexcusable, but our politicians just love seeing us getting raped in the ass by our "ally" (note that I like the Americans, just hate your (and our) shitty-ass government)

Also, I'm not protesting in public against this shit because I wanna have an US trip this year and I don't want problems with the TSA...
 
It seems there are secret deals going on:

http://pastebin.com/hhjPU911

And some good journalism here:

http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/39/39408/1.html

(German)

Automatic translation:

Listening in Adenauer's Germany and into new territory
Markus Kompa 29.06.2013
Secret treaties with the Western victorious powers of monitoring are still in force

As is known only since last year by filing releases, the various governments of the federal public had concealed the monitoring rights of the Three Powers and here about some even deceived. Still exist alongside the NATO SOFA claims to the closest cooperation on protection of the Constitution and the Federal Intelligence Service.

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Much was known only in recent years on the relationship of the young Federal Republic to the victors. As described confidant of Willy Brandt in 2009, Egon Bahr, that Brandt 1969 after moving to the Federal Chancellery got an unexpected visitor: The head of government of the three Western powers in a most strictly secret document should include subject at the Berlin issue. Parts of the Basic Law had been secretly placed in favor of "non-cancelable Winners rights" from the beginning overridden. Bahr remembers the outrage Brandts, since such a submission to violate his oath of office. As the new Chancellor heard that his three predecessors had also signed that letter, he finally gave up his resistance.

A far more piquant state secret concerned the ausbedungenen of the three Western victorious powers of their secret powers on the territory of the Federal Republic - which were in fact even the Basic Law. The Freiburg historian Prof. Dr. Josef Foschepoth it became the first to strictly inspect hitherto secret documents and publish them in his book Monitored Germany (2012).

The three Western Allies wanted the Germans to concede their territory not to be a threat to peace again, nor should they fall prey to the influence of communism from the East. As of 1945, the Western powers had as a former military government to monitor even legally be praying, post and telecommunications, and in particular about filter out propaganda from the East. Thereto changed in 1949 and the entry into force of the Basic Law nothing, although this right guaranteed in Article 5 paragraph 3 GG, a censorship would not take place. The interception of communications was based on the "security of the occupying powers", although after the then Article 10 of the Basic Law in the Telecommunications and secrecy only because of a law should have been encroached, but it was not like that.

The allied services dealt with the interception for obvious reasons, mainly German personnel and urged Adenauer, the German Federal Republic, it may also relieve organizationally. The federal government was not happy about the fact that the Western powers listened in at will, including senior diplomats, politicians and clergy.

Five brochures rating

The German authorities were heavily involved about the censorship that was only with a lot of imagination to bring the Constitution into line. Thus, the lawyers found creative ways to circumvent the Constitution itself, about the lack recognized borders actually incompetent customs et cetera. Letters were already about to open because you have so herein may smuggle diamonds. And if you ever knew of the Eastern propaganda randomly included in this way, a knowingly re-routing for the postal workers would have been a criminal participation in state decomposition. The seemingly held censorship Western services embezzled a total of about 90 million items during the Cold War, the German-German border traffic.

1952 precipitated the Federal Court, the so-called five-brochures ruling on the legality of the postal censorship of political writings. The "Federal Attorney" filed a time trial for five possible patterns sent from the GDR brochures. Without the defendant, who had to defend, this evidence has been used unlawfully procured and classified as "treasonable company" within the meaning of former § 81 of the Criminal Code. The verdict was exploited against a number of people to denounce this as an obvious enemies of the state, while maintaining the high court verdict extensive secret, however. The Süddeutsche Zeitung described this attitude manifest justice as a "witch trial", the defense lawyers walked towards this understanding of the rule of law storm.

As for the flooding with postal propaganda, as well as the West was by no means shy, but with injured Flyer balloon even the airspace of the GDR. In 1954, the Supreme Court but then to realize a non-prohibited party like the DKP should have the freedom to promote their goals. Other courts do not want to follow the obscure line of five brochures judgment.

Germany Treaty

Should the early 1950s, the parties negotiated the subsequent Treaty of Paris, which accounts for the Occupation Statute and the Federal Republic, "the full authority of a sovereign state over its internal and external affairs" gain. The Western Allies agreed against Adenauer willing to give up their reserved rights, when the Germans would make for an emergency, such as the case of an attack and the intelligence post and telecommunications control law regulations, as the then Article 10 p called 2 GG.

The willingness of the Germans to volunteer, again to a totalitarian state like spies ends at the time of the Gestapo, appreciated Adenauer's sinister Chancellor's Office chief Hans Globke probably true as very low. There was political will at the German delegation to emphasize the allied emergency reservation which allowed surveillance without emergency throughout. Adenauer quieted his doubters that he would introduce such legislation in two months in the Bundestag. He never did it.

1955, the parties exchanged several secret diplomatic notes, overwritten as [secret] "Memorandum of Understanding". The Western powers was inter alia still granted the secret surveillance. In addition, a secret claim to surrender were people who apparently belonged to a Western intelligence, in the event of their arrest by the police to the services, including their spicy possibly luggage. Responsible for the discreet handling of such embarrassments was the German domestic intelligence "Federal Office for Protection of the Constitution," which had every more skills than just watching passively.

The active endorsement Adenauer to tolerate the interception and the post-control and censorship, was unconstitutional in any case. Foschepoth historians believed Adenauer have therefore negotiated so weak because he did not want to jeopardize the failure of the EDC Treaty the success of Germany Treaty. While a sniffer legislation in Germany would have been anything but popular, Adenauer could pragmatically refer to allied reserved rights - and then only to insiders, because the contracts were indeed ultra secret. After the expiry of 50 years she was allowed to see Foschepoth and reprinted in his book Monitored Germany.

The Federal Government had an obligation to the three Western powers closest intelligence cooperation. Particularly the British fell on by excessive monitoring and were particularly interested in Western and Northern Europe. The domestic surveillance was the French at heart, the interest faded with the years. The USA built with great effort on a comprehensive strategic monitoring and targeted also observed thousands of individuals. After completion of the Germany Treaty, the omnibus virtually impossible to dismiss West Germany into NATO, the Allies lost interest in filtering out the East German propaganda and left the service of that field.

In the Post Ministry, but also by the federal government, there have been criticisms of the boundless violation of telecommunications and postal secrecy. While the U.S. insisted on their wishes, could be negotiated in 1958 against the British and French controls the restrictions on the east-west traffic - but were hardly worth the paper. Unlike the U.S., however, the interest of the European victors subsided continuously.

Eavesdropping scandal

A year after the showdown of the Cuban missile crisis and the Spiegel affair rocked 1963 revelations about the domestic intelligence protection of the Constitution the Republic. The allegations related to the pre-loaded part of Nazi personnel and the alleged co-operation with the Allies, the monitored ports on specific order. By the Germans lacked to any monitoring on a statutory basis, as they called the Basic Law, the rights of the Allies were still secret. The so-called "wiretapping affair" marked a dissatisfaction with a number of temporary pragmatist Adenauer, who had become a permanent condition after 15 years. 1966 was agreed that the secret postal checks sealed letters were obviously not be reconciled with the Constitution, the Federal Ministry of Post was not thought of as censors. The postal censorship was now set.

G-10 law

Criticism of the lawless interception by Allied and West German services continued unabated. The unknown Secret memorandum, the victorious powers gave their privileges, played in the political debate, of course, no public role. However, the Allies were still willing to let the Germans the box if this would do the job as well. 1968 finally entered the constitutionally elaborate G 10 Act into force, the services imposed a statutory basis, and generally has controls, such as the G-10 parliamentary Commission of the Bundestag.

Now, the West German secret Federal Office for Protection of the Constitution and the Federal Intelligence Service (as well as for the protection of the armed forces of the Military Counterintelligence) were officially responsible for monitoring their own population. A large part of Allied personnel and equipment was acquired. But in parallel to further existing SOFA follow from the Three Powers that their security forces had to be ensured through intensive exchange of recovered material. Therefore, they insisted on secret supplementary contracts, which obliged the German authorities to cooperate. As a result, the official rules have been hollowed out, that for the Allies virtually little changed, only the execution of the interceptions binding was carried out in German hands. While the legal basis was hailed by politicians as a rule of law, the volume of interception doubled after the acquisition of German control. Even the suggestion that West Germany had so far gained sovereignty over the Western powers did not correspond to the facts in the result.

However, although the friendly services could fall back on the interception capacity of Protection of the Constitution and the Federal Intelligence Service, they also heard even more or less secretly further. Of course almost no restraint in western interception talks showed the Ministry of State Security, which was informed from the East about the goings of politicians in Bonn firsthand. As spy chief Markus Wolf later summarized, the largest yield of sniffing was the economic espionage, as the GDR was able to save development costs in this way.

Echelon, Otto catalogs, Prism

Until recently, the secret supplementary contracts survived as well as the NATO SOFA, the Two-plus-Four negotiations for the production of German unification in 1990 and the law of the victors are still in force.

Although the enemy had disappeared in East Germany in 2000 was considered a champion interception. A decade after the end of the Cold War was on, that the U.S. and the UK together with a designated "Echelon" system of new technologies listening in Western Europe (see the Telepolis Special Echelon). Some cases corroborated the suspicion of industrial espionage. A committee of the European Parliament about the existence of a global system for intercepting private and commercial communications delivered in mid-2001 a convincing chain of evidence (European Parliament adopted Echelon report). A political resonance, however, did, as soon several large aircraft raced in the U.S. in building and about 3,000 people killed, what the security needs increased dramatically.

In Germany, these events were followed by the Otto catalogs (The new Otto catalog there). Wolfgang Schäuble, then struck before 2009, in favor of cooperation with foreign services abolish the parliamentary control, which this appears in a different light with knowledge of the then still secret treaties. Schaeuble's plans for a to be built after the model of the British GCHQ listening center, gave the policy a rejection.

The installation of a surveillance state, which also affected his own people in the U.S. at least in the increasingly globalized communications, was based on the Patriot Act adopted in 2001. After becoming aware of prism could 2013 not even the author of the Patriot Act to follow the broad interpretation practice of the NSA. The expansion of the German Federal Constitutional Court continued the monitoring boundaries in 2008.

On 01.07.2013 the Act to enter into Germany inventory data information into force, which is identical to large parts with Prism. The secrecy was required because apparently neither the public nor the majority of the politicians involved realized that the inventory data is information at all.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
So how long until we find out that corporations that provide access to NSA are given industrial espionage data in return?

Microsoft

edit: Not long!
 

Perkel

Banned
Knowing EU parlament you can expect in near future some crazy regulations on social networks and all companies caught in that fiasco.

Servers on site (nation user data in that nation severs), heavy punishment for on site workers (even treason charge).
Same with google business like gmail.

Oh and the FINES. Those Fines will be glorious. EU love to fine shitty practices. Bilion for integrated WMP ? Let's see what fine they will get for wiretaping.
I wonder what is now happening in facebook HQ
 

mavs

Member
This is going to make it hard for US tech companies to operate in any country, not even just the EU. If this is industrial espionage, it seems counter-productive. Now the tech sector will become a liability for the country, because after this we can't ever let foreign firms gain significant market share here.
 
I'm curious to see if this is going to threaten trade agreements between the US and the EU.
I think it's not something Eu could get over ,mostly for the clamor this thing generated and for the risk (which must always be calculated , even if it's a friend nation) of having crucial communication intercepted.
 
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