Support NeoGAF

[Zatoichi's Cane]

Janice Lesko was my sister in law.


I took a break from the petty arguments of videogames while trying to figure out why life is fucking awful.

sorry to hear about your loss. Wish your family the best.

 

[thunder_snail]

There are a lot of things to do even after launch. Software libraries and framework support will certainly be one of them. The OS and services will continuously evolve, too. On the hardware site, I am sure that they will do extensive postmortems and continue to work on a more efficient manufacturing process and the next hardware revision of the console.

I've read somewhere (forgot the site sorry) that there aren't any libraries taking advantage of hsa at the moment but they will start appearing late 2014. May be he'll start working on those for ps4 with ICE team?

 

[DieH@rd]

I won't say anything about the specifics of the tech demos I can't. However, they focused on things like the way weather and the environment affects a player. There was also one where they focused on the elements of light and dark and fear on a characte. That's it for me.

This all sounds like the devs are trying to test how larger memory pool will affect the animations of the characters. Naughty Dog devs were forced to cram all animations of Joel [walking, climbing, fighting with all weapons and mellee] Ellie, and all enemies [and their weapons] into 4 to 5 MB of RAM. Now that was an achievement.

I wonder what will they do with 50 MB of ram dedicated to animations.

I'll put it this way a 100mhz GPU upclock (and I am dreaming I know) and a 200 mhz CPU upclock would make it very hard for BF4 to not hit 1080p.

Can AMD preform uplock on just one [or two] CPU modules? I think that many devs would be ultra happy if only those CPU cores got upclock of 200mhz [main "scheduler" threads will benefit a lot from more power].

 

[RoboPlato]

This all sounds like the devs are trying to test how larger memory pool will affect the animations of the characters. Naughty Dog devs were forced to cram all animations of Joel [walking, climbing, fighting with all weapons and mellee] Ellie, and all enemies [and their weapons] into 4 to 5 MB of RAM. Now that was an achievement.

I wonder what will they do with 50 MB of ram dedicated to animations.

I heard that they were actually cheering whenever the cleared up an extra KILObyte of RAM while working on TLoU. I can't wait what to see what devs can do on PS4.

 

[thuway]

Can AMD preform uplock on just one [or two] CPU modules? I think that many devs would be ultra happy if only those CPU cores got upclock of 200mhz [main "scheduler" threads will benefit a lot from more power].

To be perfectly honest, this late gen upclocking bullshit is just that, bullshit. It's a fantasy that has deleterious consequences since it was never planned from the get go. What Microsoft did with their upclock is both shocking and unprecedented... and hat's off to them. I honestly don't think Sony will risk the long term reliability of the PS4 in favor of developer performance.


But... if in my wildest fantasies Cerny decides to walk on stage, the lights shut off, and the projector shines an image of 900 mhz, than consider me excited.

Edit:

Also if there is an upclock announcement today, expect developer response to be the same as the GDDR5 announcement.

 

[Pain]

To be perfectly honest, this late gen upclocking bullshit is just that, bullshit. It's a fantasy that has deleterious consequences since it was never planned from the get go. What Microsoft did with their upclock is both shocking and unprecedented... and hat's off to them. I honestly don't think Sony will risk the long term reliability of the PS4 in favor of developer performance.


But... if in my wildest fantasies Cerny decides to walk on stage, the lights shut off, and the projector shines an image of 900 mhz, than consider me excited.

Not sure I agree with you there. With the performance disadvantage and more than adequate cooling, I'd say the clock speed increases were to be expected.

Who knows how hot the PS4 can get right now, if they still have room in the thermal budget, they'll to an upclock. These things obviously get tested for months in advance.

 

[frizby]

To be perfectly honest, this late gen upclocking bullshit is just that, bullshit. It's a fantasy that has deleterious consequences since it was never planned from the get go. What Microsoft did with their upclock is both shocking and unprecedented... and hat's off to them. I honestly don't think Sony will risk the long term reliability of the PS4 in favor of developer performance.

Agree, and I'd be even more shocked to see a hardware company do it. They put considerable time into engineering the PS4 and fitting everything in a relatively small package. I'd want them to do thorough testing before tweaking anything.

But... if in my wildest fantasies Cerny decides to walk on stage, the lights shut off, and the projector shines an image of 900 mhz, than consider me excited.

Those are some wild fantasies!

 

[DieH@rd]

I dont expect pre-launch upclock. If it happens at all, it will arrive in ~2015-2016 [either silently as a part of new SDK, or maybe publicized at US/EU GDC].

 

[3rdamention]

Sorry to hear it, famousmortimer.

Back on Ps4,

What do we think Mark Cerny is focusing on next, now that the console is nigh-launch? My first idea is that he would be trying to work out some new libraries or frameworks for making use of some of the APU/HuMA type tricks that were unavailable before. Like, I'm not super hardware savvy, but I do recall several mentions of the use of newly bi-directional data transfer to "enable things previously not possible" or some such phrasing. That got me interested, because much of his x86 talk revolved around a sort of implicit Sony philosophy (previous to this new machine) that it was ok to have somewhat exotic hardware as long as the development scaled throughout the generation, seeing as even very hard software problems like job splitting and SPE usage and refactoring, do eventually get solved, allowing for the sorts of improvements seen in the likes of The Last Of Us, near the end of the gen. The way Cerny put it, was that he seemed to think he had found a way to have his easy-dev cake and eat it too- fast time to triangle as he puts it, but also the headroom to explore some new methods made possible by having stupid fast/large bandwidth to a preposterous block of RAM.

Someone tell me if I'm high or what.

I would really like to see him work on some type of PlayRoom demos. I think he could provide a lot of creativity to the PlayRoom infrastructure.

 

[frizby]

Also if there is an upclock announcement today, expect developer response to be the same as the GDDR5 announcement.

There will be pants!

 

[ProfessorMoran]

This all sounds like the devs are trying to test how larger memory pool will affect the animations of the characters. Naughty Dog devs were forced to cram all animations of Joel [walking, climbing, fighting with all weapons and mellee] Ellie, and all enemies [and their weapons] into 4 to 5 MB of RAM. Now that was an achievement.

I wonder what will they do with 50 MB of ram dedicated to animations.




Can AMD preform uplock on just one [or two] CPU modules? I think that many devs would be ultra happy if only those CPU cores got upclock of 200mhz [main "scheduler" threads will benefit a lot from more power].

The next ND game is going to have the best animations ever.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Janice Lesko was my sister in law.


I took a break from the petty arguments of videogames while trying to figure out why life is fucking awful.

Damn, that's terrible. Sorry to hear that, man. Wish you and your family all the best.

 

[spatenfloot]

There will be pants!

You mean no pants.

 

[IN&OUT]

Janice Lesko was my sister in law.


I took a break from the petty arguments of videogames while trying to figure out why life is fucking awful.

Sorry for your loss my friend, I know how does it feel losing a loved one. I lost my dad after an uphill battle with lung and liver cancer, it was one whole year of non-sleep for me. my condolences.

 

[Kun Aguero]

Best wishes Mort, sorry to hear about your families loss, keep your chin up bud.

No chance of an up-clock from Sony this late in the game, they already have the most powerful hardware, why take a reliability risk to get a few more % out of the system? Doesn't make sense, and I can't see it happening.

 

[DieH@rd]

No chance of an up-clock from Sony this late in the game, they already have the most powerful hardware, why take a reliability risk to get a few more % out of the system? Doesn't make sense, and I can't see it happening.

Upklock is possible later on, especially if Sony start testing launch models with harsher stress-test programs.

 

[RoboPlato]

To be perfectly honest, this late gen upclocking bullshit is just that, bullshit. It's a fantasy that has deleterious consequences since it was never planned from the get go. What Microsoft did with their upclock is both shocking and unprecedented... and hat's off to them. I honestly don't think Sony will risk the long term reliability of the PS4 in favor of developer performance.


But... if in my wildest fantasies Cerny decides to walk on stage, the lights shut off, and the projector shines an image of 900 mhz, than consider me excited.

Edit:

Also if there is an upclock announcement today, expect developer response to be the same as the GDDR5 announcement.

Have you heard anything about the OS reserve on the CPU? I feel like if there's any gains in performance to be had, it'll be there.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

It's likely that Knack is being used to test the waters with GPGPU physics, If you look at the trailers and consider every single object in Knacks body is a seperate object and they all interact with each other, the Physics system is likely more complex than any other game we have seen so far. It is likely that this will result in an improvement of the GPGPU Dev tools.

I can certainly see this being correct. It's a testbed for the kinds of benefits that PS4 games in the future can look forward to.

 

[Kun Aguero]

Upklock is possible later on, especially if Sony start testing launch models with harsher stress-test programs.

Virtually anything can be described as possible. Realistically Sony have absolutely no need to do it, why take a risk for an extra few %? They aren't playing catch up from a hardware point of view.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

Upklock is possible later on, especially if Sony start testing launch models with harsher stress-test programs.

I don't think Sony would uplclock in reaction to MS but since Sony has not released their clock spec it is possible that it is something they have been working on unrelated to the MS move. For all we know the clock has been higher since E3. We should know by tomorrow.

 

[boredandlazy]

Crash Bandicoot: Revenge of the apples inbound

Spoiler

I would totally buy it

Wumpa Fruit, not apples.

 

[Wishmaster92]

To be perfectly honest, this late gen upclocking bullshit is just that, bullshit. It's a fantasy that has deleterious consequences since it was never planned from the get go. What Microsoft did with their upclock is both shocking and unprecedented... and hat's off to them. I honestly don't think Sony will risk the long term reliability of the PS4 in favor of developer performance.


But... if in my wildest fantasies Cerny decides to walk on stage, the lights shut off, and the projector shines an image of 900 mhz, than consider me excited.

Edit:

Also if there is an upclock announcement today, expect developer response to be the same as the GDDR5 announcement.

Exactly and this is what some people would debate about, yes developers are more than happy with the ps4, yes the ps4 time to triangle and toolkits are much better than any cpu/gpu clock increase. But what about 3-4 years from now? History will probably repeat itself and i hope sony decides to both upclock the cpu/gpu and reduce the os footprint (although this is mostly a given). I still remember the ps4 ram allocation thread and how you/bruce/kagari confirmed how there are some games in development using 6gb of ram. It gets me excited because i know there will only be improvements from here on, maybe devs will get 6.5gb by the end of year one or two? Who knows. Some developers might thing 5/5.5gb would be enough but I bet you others wanting to go an extra mile would appreciate 6gb.

Moral of the story: More is always better, no excuses.

Edit: Just read the story, condolences to famousmortimer.

 

[onQ123]

What about Turbo Mode?

 

[B_Boss]

My deep condolences Mortimer.....damn .

 

[CLEEK]

Wumpa Fruit, not apples.

TELL THAT TO CERNY.

 

[vpance]

In the end, I think bandwidth might become more of a limit over anything else. And that's something that's stuck if I'm not mistaken. Without enough bandwidth any extra TF might not see efficient usage anyways.

 

[George Claw M.D.]

I keep reading comments about possible upclocks later in the PS4's lifetime. My question is why would it be more likely later instead of now? If the hardware can't support an upclock now, why would it be able to later? I can understand that later hardware revisions may be able to support higher clocks, but what would be the point if you can't do the same for the millions of customers that have older systems?

 

[RoboPlato]

In the end, I think bandwidth might become more of a limit over anything else. And that's something that's stuck if I'm not mistaken. Without enough bandwidth any extra TF might not see efficient usage anyways.

A 7870 is 2.56 Tflops on very similar bandwidth to the PS4 when you take out the CPU usage. A bit of a bump would be fine. I don't think it'll happen, but the bandwidth wouldn't limit it.

 

[thuway]

Exactly and this is what some people would debate about, yes developers are more than happy with the ps4, yes the ps4 time to triangle and toolkits are much better than any cpu/gpu clock increase. But what about 3-4 years from now? History will probably repeat itself and i hope sony decides to both upclock the cpu/gpu and reduce the os footprint (although this is mostly a given). I still remember the ps4 ram allocation thread and how you/bruce/kagari confirmed how there are some games in development using 6gb of ram. It gets me excited because i know there will only be improvements from here on, maybe devs will get 6.5gb by the end of year one or two? Who knows. Some developers might thing 5/5.5gb would be enough but I bet you others wanting to go an extra mile would appreciate 6gb.

Moral of the story: More is always better, no excuses.

Edit: Just read the story, condolences to famousmortimer.

The bigger issue is 1080p. I invest way too much time attempting to understand technology and it just irks me when the performance is not under the hood for something that should be a standard this gen (even if it's because EA decided not to optimize for shit). If you can get launch games a boost to run at 1080p (Battlefield 4) or at 60 FPS (Drive Club), than consider both gamers and developer's very happy. In any case, hardware talk today, so this is my version of E3 .

 

[RoboPlato]

The bigger issue is 1080p. I invest way too much time attempting to understand technology and it just irks me when the performance is not under the hood for something that should be a standard this gen. If you can get launch games a boost to run at 1080p (Battlefield 4) or at 60 FPS (Drive Club), than consider both gamers and developer's very happy. In any case, hardware talk today, so this is my version of E3 .

I agree there. Do we know for sure if we're getting real hardware talk? The original quote was very vague and seemed like a loose Japanese translation.

I hope we get some interesting news since I just found out that most of the money I have saved up for PS4 is going to unexpected car repairs

 

[Majmun]

In other news clock speeds and stuff! Woo!

This whole hw power discussion sounds so silly when you think about real life issues. My condolences. I know how it feels to lose a loved one.

But this silly discussion is also a great distraction. So yeah, back to tflops yesss

 

[thuway]

I agree there. Do we know for sure if we're getting real hardware talk? The original quote was very vague and seemed like a loose Japanese translation.

I hope we get some interesting news since I just found out that most of the money I have saved up for PS4 is going to unexpected car repairs

This is TGS, expect NOTHING. I'm expecting more stories for the tub, and that's about it.

 

[RoboPlato]

This is TGS, expect NOTHING. I'm expecting more stories for the tub, and that's about it.

Trust me, I'm not expecting anything. Getting MGSV demos in the next few days are already more than I was expecting. I don't think I even remember any specific announcements at TGS since the Wiimote unveiling. I'm just watching the stream since I have nothing better to do tonight.

 

[vpance]

A 7870 is 2.56 Tflops on very similar bandwidth to the PS4 when you take out the CPU usage. A bit of a bump would be fine. I don't think it'll happen, but the bandwidth wouldn't limit it.

I suppose so. But once devs start saturating the GPU with GPGPU tasks as well I wonder how the system will cope, since that takes up bandwidth as well. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

I agree there. Do we know for sure if we're getting real hardware talk? The original quote was very vague and seemed like a loose Japanese translation.

Yeah, I think it was just a loose translation. "Detailed specification of this latest system and its exclusive software titles", where specification should probably just be explanation

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Yes the double-edged sword aspect worries me a little

If a team has to port to both XB1 and PS4, and an okay PS4 port takes a fourth of their time budget they'll just leave it and spend the rest of the time trying to get the XB1 up to PS4's port level

So gimped by association almost

I guess we'll see though. I suppose if it took longer to port to PS4 that would not guarantee a better port

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

[Jack_AG]

I keep reading comments about possible upclocks later in the PS4's lifetime. My question is why would it be more likely later instead of now? If the hardware can't support an upclock now, why would it be able to later? I can understand that later hardware revisions may be able to support higher clocks, but what would be the point if you can't do the same for the millions of customers that have older systems?

Firmware updates can up the clock speeds just as they can reduce OS footprint. They won't be leaving anyone in the dust. No internet? No problem. Games usually come with the latest OS update for just this reason.

That being said I can't see any minor bump doing anything meaningful we can see, tbh.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

http://www.twitch.tv/ignlive


TGS live starts in 2 minutes for those interested

 

[George Claw M.D.]

Firmware updates can up the clock speeds just as they can reduce OS footprint. They won't be leaving anyone in the dust. No internet? No problem. Games usually come with the latest OS update for just this reason.

That being said I can't see any minor bump doing anything meaningful we can see, tbh.

Yes. I understand that. But I'm saying the hardware that people buy at launch is still going to be the same hardware 2 years from now. So either it can support higher clocks now or not. I don't see why that would change with the passage of time. The laws of thermodynamics aren't somehow going to change in the next few years. So, why wait until later to upclock if you're Sony?

Or maybe it would be something like Sony wanting to see millions of consoles in consumers' homes running stably for an extended period at current clocks before considering an upclock. This is actually something that would make sense to me.

But I'm just speculating and have no idea how these decisions are made, so I was wondering if anyone here does, and can offer insight on it since it seems to be a common thought in this thread that Sony may possibly do upclocks in future firmwares.

 

[vpance]

Specification update:

"HDM into external memory"

That's all I remember.

 

[ElTorro]

That's all I remember.

Don't forget the megaton: "Upload to SNES"

 

[Finalizer]

What we learned from TGS so far: Playstation 4 may only be 50% more powerful in hardware, but it has 100% more huhs than anyone!

 

[SwiftDeath]

What we learned from TGS so far: Playstation 4 may only be 50% more powerful in hardware, but it has 100% more huhs than anyone!

Sigh I missed it thus far

Stupid work

Sounds kind of lame so far though

Was the remote play impressive?

 

[ElTorro]

Was the remote play impressive?

It seemed to just work. Image quality and latency can't really be judged from that stream.

 

[DBT85]

Was the remote play impressive?

Engadget and Gamesrader both sad lag free with some video compression.

 

[Yoday]

What we learned from TGS so far: Playstation 4 may only be 50% more powerful in hardware, but it has 100% more huhs than anyone!

Just you huh wait huh, MS will huh make up for huh all of the huh's because they are teh huh Direct Xhuh Gods!

 

[artist]

So are we getting any PS4 hardware details and when?

 

[Ushae]

Just you huh wait huh, MS will huh make up for huh all of the huh's because they are teh huh Direct Xhuh Gods!

Oh boy, this stream sounds like it was a lot of fun. Will watch it later .. huh!

 

[RoboPlato]

So are we getting any PS4 hardware details and when?

The only tech talk from last night was that they were going to go with 4Gb of GDDR5 but devs wanted 8 so they upped it. That's all.

 

[fatgamecat]

That wasn't much of a meg-huh-ton. Any more chances we'll see more tech info out of TGS?

 

[Hollow]

That wasn't much of a meg-huh-ton. Any more chances we'll see more tech info out of TGS?

Pretty sure there's a keynote today. At least that's what I remember reading.