Extra Sauce
Member
Well I would hope Naughty Dog are not the kind of dev to create a sexualized 12 year old.
Unlike certain japanese devs...
Well I would hope Naughty Dog are not the kind of dev to create a sexualized 12 year old.
Unlike certain japanese devs...
Wasn't Vamp bisexual? And what does that quote even mean. The cake one.No one bats an eye at Fenris and Zevran (dragon age), Vamp and Raiden. (MGS) All who were made for female fans. And those were just examples, there are plenty of more similar characters out there.
Seems like they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Sounds like you did't understand my comment. People just qouted my coment accused me of calling Elie a "damsel in distress." I said that Ellie is more independent, and that's not even how I'm comparing them. I explain that on a later comment. Of course, people fail to read that and only read the pots that are talking down on ND's game.
Well I hope it's a trend that catches on.
But it won't.
Maybe I would like Ellie as a character more if she didn't drop an F bomb every sentence. It seems like game developers these days think constant cussing = a more mature story. I'm not a prude, but in this game it just kinda came off awkward and forced, and really killed a few key scenes in the game.
Wasn't Vamp bisexual? And what does that quote even mean. The cake one.
Well either you've been able to document a transition between the groups of yesteryear and today or perhaps you may have discovered an entirely new group in the same family as both the feminists and puritans you of which you speak.
In the manner of good anthropologists, let us give a name to this new group so that we may be able to observe and study them.
I suggest strawwomen.
Yep.
Porn is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Stripping is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Fan service (for men) in games and anime is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Ads featuring women in half naked/provocative poses is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Yet no one bats an eye at Yaoi/bishounen anime, gigolos, Twilight/50 shades of grey type media. (both of which are filled with horrible tropes against women, yet they ignore all of it since it's appealing to them)
No one bats an eye at Fenris and Zevran (dragon age), Vamp and Raiden. (MGS) All who were made for female fans. And those were just examples, there are plenty of more similar characters out there.
Seems like they want to have their cake and eat it too.
i feel like if they wanted to really change the industry they would have given us the optionor let us choose weather or notof having Joel leave Ellie with the fireflies to be disected to extract the cure.to kill her if she turned infected during their walk through the forest afterwards
Well... not surprised how this thread ended up.
I don't understand how that would inspire change, especially in the way Neil was saying.
Twilight/50 shades of grey type media. (both of which are filled with horrible tropes against women, yet they ignore all of it since it's appealing to them)
I don't know if was Vamp was bisexual at all, doesn't really change the fact that he was sexualized towards women.
As for the quote, it means a double standard basically.
This is fantastically, stupefyingly wrong. Lots of women have written about the problematic portrayal of womanhood in Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey.
When the world goes to shit, i m pretty sure everyone tends to use more colorful words. Also it wasn't always happening tbhMaybe I would like Ellie as a character more if she didn't drop an F bomb every sentence. It seems like game developers these days think constant cussing = a more mature story. I'm not a prude, but in this game it just kinda came off awkward and forced, and really killed a few key scenes in the game.
i mean in terms of not going with a nice hollywood ending, and with the walking dead being praised for split-second choice mechanics.
This is fantastically, stupefyingly wrong. Lots of women have written about the problematic portrayal of womanhood in Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey.
I'm choosing to ignore the strawman arguments, yes. Virtually all of those examples overly simplify or flatout lie about their subjects.I guess you're all going to ignore these examples too and pretend that puritanism and feminism aren't closely connected.
"Lots" of women? Compared to the millions upon millions of fans that follow the books/movies?
They're in the very minuscule minority as best.
I really dont care if anyone talks down a game I like, I just hate when the comment sounds like a cheap shot with no basis.
I just read your other comments explaining yourself, but how is Ellie a side character like Ashley? Ignoring that Ellie, the story is pretty much entirely about her. She is the most important character in the game. Ashley? Nah. This is my opinion, but I feel Joel was created to fit into Ellie's storyline, not the other way around.is playable for a great portion of the game, much longer than Ashley
Just because she wasn't equal with power and strength as Joel doesn't make her a pointless side character, such as Ashley was. I wish you would brought up The Boss, because then this discussion would go somewhere meaningful.
Didn't they already attempt this multiple times with Uncharted? They never have sexualized characters so for them to try and make a point now in itself is pointless.
Waves will be made when Tecmo releases a DoA game without "physics".
I don't think that's fair.
For one, the effects of The Last of Us wouldn't be seen for many years yet, so you're jumping the gun in that regard. Honestly I felt it was so superlative in every aspect that it'd be hard for such an experience not to rub off on those thousands of game creators out there.
If your profession is creating interactive entertainment and you take nothing from The Last of Us into your own work, then, in my opinion, you aren't giving your work enough thought. There's so much that the game gets right.
I felt quite similarly about Resident Evil 4, which, of course, changed the following generation dramatically.
When the world goes to shit, i m pretty sure everyone tends to use more colorful words. Also it wasn't always happening tbh
I'm choosing to ignore the strawman arguments, yes. Virtually all of those examples overly simplify or flatout lie about their subjects.
I think you can make the argument that Valve has already done a non-sexualized female protagonist ten years ago with Alyx Vance in Half-Life 2 and that hasn't changed the industry.
Well, in the same context, Ashly is also the most important character in RE4 since it's all about rescuing her and surviving the trip even if she was pretty useless. Then again, Ashly was living in a normal world. Ellie lives in a post-apocalyptic scenario, so Ellie is more independent.
Also, I never said Ellie was a "pointless side character," but she's still a side characters. Side characters can be really good and sometimes even better than the main characters. This reminds me of Suisei no Gargantia, an anime. Chamber is a side character thay became well liked by fans. Eventually, he becomes even more important/respectable than the main characters even though he was in the background helping out most of the time.
Anyways, my point is that Ellie is a very good side character, but they're not changing anything as long as they put her in the side lines like this. I point back to my RE Zero example. They could've made Ellie a bit older and make her stand next to Joel for the entire game or just remove Joel altogether. As it stands, they're simply following the same pattern as other games.
What has the world of SH to do with The Last Of Us? Two totally different worlds.I don't know, maybe it's just me. It didn't kill the game for me, I still enjoyed it, I think it just took me out of the experience a little bit. I can look to another game with a mature story like Silent Hill 2 and I don't recall more than a handful of cuss words.
Well, in the same context, Ashly is also the most important character in RE4 since it's all about rescuing her and surviving the trip even if she was pretty useless. Then again, Ashly was living in a normal world. Ellie lives in a post-apocalyptic scenario, so Ellie is more independent.
Also, I never said Ellie was a "pointless side character," but she's still a side characters. Side characters can be really good and sometimes even better than the main characters. This reminds me of Suisei no Gargantia, an anime. Chamber is a side character thay became well liked by fans. Eventually, he becomes even more important/respectable than the main characters even though he was in the background helping out most of the time.
Anyways, my point is that Ellie is a very good side character, but they're not changing anything as long as they put her in the side lines like this. I point back to my RE Zero example. They could've made Ellie a bit older and make her stand next to Joel for the entire game or just remove Joel altogether. As it stands, they're simply following the same pattern as other games.
Naughty Dog wanted to "change the industry" through its presentation of a "non-sexualized" female protagonist in The Last of Us, creative director Neil Druckmann has said.
Seems like Beyond is the game for you then.Main character in videogames is the one you play the majority of the time. It's safe-bet Joel, not Ellie. But having a murderous survival-at-all-costs teenage protagonist would be something new in this industry.Cut Joel all-together.
I wish developers had balls for this.
No it's the truth. Puritanism and feminism are intertwined in USA.
As someone said earlier, you can replace Ashley with Nuclear launch codes and the story would remain the same. The same cannot be said for Ellie.
I see where you're trying to make your point, but you're viewing it all in a simple, general way. Sure the formula is similar, but the execution is very different than what most games are doing. I never played Zero, so I can't comment on how they did it.
"Naughty Dog wanted to "change the industry" through its presentation of a "non-sexualized" female protagonist in The Last of Us, creative director Neil Druckmann has said."
Only Naughty Dog can create a non-sexualized 12-year-old in a video game. I've grown so tired of all the sexualized child characters in skimpy outfits and sexy poses in this vile medium.
Thankfully the Naughty Gods had the guts to break this trend and change the industry for the better.
Porn is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Stripping is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Fan service (for men) in games and anime is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Ads featuring women in half naked/provocative poses is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
They do, but there are different subtleties going on there.Yet no one bats an eye at Yaoi/bishounen anime
I'm pretty sure they bat an eye at prostitution in general.gigolos
This is just flat out bullshit.Twilight/50 shades of grey type media. (both of which are filled with horrible tropes against women, yet they ignore all of it since it's appealing to them)
Bioware gets a ton of flack for the way those characters have been portrayed.No one bats an eye at Fenris and Zevran (dragon age)
Yes, Raiden and Vamp, prime examples of characters entirely popular across the board that nobody ever batted an eye too.Vamp and Raiden. (MGS) All who were made for female fans. And those were just examples, there are plenty of more similar characters out there.
Really? How can you reconcile this world view with the consistent opposition of feminists to slut shaming language? Women are sexual creatures, too, it's not like we're all prudes. The problem isn't recognizing female sexuality, it's trying to control or limit it (a typical puritanical move) or to equate a woman's value to her sexuality.
American puritanism ruining it for the rest of the world again. Don't misunderstand me, I loved the characters in TLoU but bragging because your characters where sexless shows where the industry is heading and the current environment of intimidation within it.
Naughty Dog is starting to sound pretentious and a little too into themselves and why? Because they're listening to some angry puritans disguised as feminists. Bravo ND, you really changed the world, the Demolition Man future is finally arriving, in order to even touch our genitals we'll need a special permit from now on.
I think you can make the argument that Valve has already done a non-sexualized female protagonist ten years ago with Alyx Vance in Half-Life 2 and that hasn't changed the industry.
Your distinction between side characters and main characters isn't really coherent.
As I said before, Ashley may be important in RE4's plot, but she's important the same way that the Ark of the Covenant is important in Raiders of the Lost Ark. She doesn't have a character at all, and she doesn't really change over the course of the journey. Honestly, nobody in RE4 has a character arc. It only cares about its story and characters to the extent that they can create fun action scenarios.
Ellie doesn't just, she has a defined character that changes over the course of the game, and how her perception of Joel changes is at least as important to the game's story as how his perception of her changes. She has the last line in the entire gameget significantly more playtime than Ashley as a self-sufficient, dangerous entity, and the choice she makes then is as significant as Joel's choice to the game's message.(she's even the last character you control)
Now, she's not the main protagonist (so it's not the bravest of all possible games, I guess), but it'd be reductive to say that her writing and character goes in the same bin as a complete non-character just because she's not onscreen the entire game. Or that another character with minimal personality is better just because she's always potentially controllable.
Maybe you have encountered some who occupy a more puritanical stance, but they are either fringe or perhaps you've just misunderstood and simplified what they were saying.
Actually, I'll address them after all.
Oversimplifies the problem. The act of having sex on camera is fine if that's what the actors and actresses have chosen to do. The problem is what goes on behind the camera (and sometimes still on the camera) where actresses (and actors) are coerced into things they don't want to do.
Note how there's that thread going on in OT discussing the HIV breakout in the porn community where it came out about actresses can't even really request that the men they work with wear condoms if the producers/directors don't want them to, and to complain about results in being threatened with losing your job.
Same issues. The act of stripping is fine on its own. The act of stripping for money is also fine on its own. What goes on behind the scenes isn't, and that eventually does bleed into what goes on stage.
It's really not about the sexualization. It's about the more subtle implications of what's going on.
Frankly, dudes should be more upset about it because it says a lot of horrible things about us that the people who make these things that all we need to see is an animated titty on that catgirl sprite to get us to start throwing money at their games and animes.
See above.
Scooter, I think you are also in error because you are conflating "feminism" as a single ideological entity, when it's actually a much broader umbrella that covers a lot of different stances.
Maybe you have encountered some who occupy a more puritanical stance, but they are either fringe or perhaps you've just misunderstood and simplified what they were saying.
"Lots" of women? Compared to the millions upon millions of fans that follow the books/movies?
They're in the very minuscule minority as best.
Porn is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Stripping is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Fan service (for men) in games and anime is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Ads featuring women in half naked/provocative poses is wrong because it sexualizes and degrades women.
Joel turningthe hospital into a bloody bath tomb for the military soldiers with the classic dudebro-ish assault rifle that kinda fell forced to you and reverted the game into Uncharted-mode. The only trully interesting part of that stage were the radio recordings around the hospital.
So by comparison, you think that this:
is descriptive of a majority view among women?
Well, yeah; I'm generalizing and simplifying things for the sake of argument since a lot of game use this approach. Some will turn out better than others, but it's the same idea.
As for RE Zero, Billy is an ex-soldier (marine?), and Rebecca is a roockie officer. They're both have their strengths and weaknesses who get thrown into the whole zombie thing. They don't even know each other, but theu agree to help each other. I think she's 19 and Billy is much older. You can play as either throughout the whole game at the same time. There are just a couple of places where you must play as one of them. This in turn make the two equally important as main characters. In fact, I'd say Rebecca is more important since her medical knowledge gets them out of the hole.
Two franchises I can think of that changed the industry or Gears and L4D.I think they have earned the right to say they wanna change the industry...because they're already changing it.
Have not yet played TLoU (just the first mission, on a store) but from what i've seen, its miles ahead almost every other game.
I don't know, maybe it's just me. It didn't kill the game for me, I still enjoyed it, I think it just took me out of the experience a little bit. I can look to another game with a mature story like Silent Hill 2 and I don't recall more than a handful of cuss words.