Extra Sauce
Member
Unlike certain japanese devs...
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Naughty Dog wanted to "change the industry" with The Last of Us
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
Unlike certain japanese devs...
Everyone knows that the Japanese suffer from Severe Time Dilation.
Wasn't Vamp bisexual? And what does that quote even mean. The cake one.
I really dont care if anyone talks down a game I like, I just hate when the comment sounds like a cheap shot with no basis.
I just read your other comments explaining yourself, but how is Ellie a side character like Ashley? Ignoring that Ellie
is playable for a great portion of the game, much longer than Ashley
Just because she wasn't equal with power and strength as Joel doesn't make her a pointless side character, such as Ashley was. I wish you would brought up The Boss, because then this discussion would go somewhere meaningful.
Maybe I would like Ellie as a character more if she didn't drop an F bomb every sentence. It seems like game developers these days think constant cussing = a more mature story. I'm not a prude, but in this game it just kinda came off awkward and forced, and really killed a few key scenes in the game.
I don't think that was what the devs were going for at all. I can't really recall a time when someone who wasn't Ellie was swearing profusely. All the adults act like adults. Ellie acts like a teenager.
Elway7Sharpe84
Banned
I don't know if was Vamp was bisexual at all, doesn't really change the fact that he was sexualized towards women.
As for the quote, it means a double standard basically.
So I'm making it all up, huh? Oh wait:
I guess you're all going to ignore these examples too and pretend that puritanism and feminism aren't closely connected.
i mean in terms of not going with a nice hollywood ending, and with the walking dead being praised for split-second choice mechanics.
This is fantastically, stupefyingly wrong. Lots of women have written about the problematic portrayal of womanhood in Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey.
Oh I thought he was sexualized towards gay men. It doesn't invalid your post though, and I agree with you. I just like discussing characters
There's always going to be objectifying sides, but if you observe it at a broader angle, those books/movies are mostly praised by women. Many even expect their men to act the same as Christian nowadays. It's very annoying.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
Princess Peach still stands tall as the coolest, non sexualized female character in a game.
When the world goes to shit, i m pretty sure everyone tends to use more colorful words. Also it wasn't always happening tbh
Ah okay I see what you mean. Walking Dead's main mechanics relied on dialogue and choices (which may or may not have impacted the game's trajectory at all), and having a big choice moment like that in TLOU would undermine what the game is trying to say about the characters' relationship.
But anyway, this my current frustration with with this thread-- People are throwing out random grievances or easy potshots about the game that derail conversations and have nothing to do with the OP. What do cinematic games or extreme feminism have to do with a single creator who had a personal motivation to create a cool female character that didn't rely on easy character design and writing? Does no one have any discussion on that front? lol
Elway7Sharpe84
Banned
"Lots" of women? Compared to the millions upon millions of fans that follow the books/movies?
They're in the very minuscule minority as best.
Dark Octave
Banned
Didn't they already attempt this multiple times with Uncharted? They never have sexualized characters so for them to try and make a point now in itself is pointless.
Waves will be made when Tecmo releases a DoA game without "physics".
Waves will be made when Tecmo releases a DoA game without "physics".
I'm choosing to ignore the strawman arguments, yes. Virtually all of those examples overly simplify or flatout lie about their subjects.
Anyone writing media criticism is in the miniscule minority of modern consumers.
razoftblend
Member
Well, in the same context, Ashly is also the most important character in RE4 since it's all about rescuing her and surviving the trip even if she was pretty useless. Then again, Ashly was living in a normal world. Ellie lives in a post-apocalyptic scenario, so Ellie is more independent.
Also, I never said Ellie was a "pointless side character," but she's still a side characters. Side characters can be really good and sometimes even better than the main characters. This reminds me of Suisei no Gargantia, an anime. Chamber is a side character thay became well liked by fans. Eventually, he becomes even more important/respectable than the main characters even though he was in the background helping out most of the time.
Anyways, my point is that Ellie is a very good side character, but they're not changing anything as long as they put her in the side lines like this. I point back to my RE Zero example. They could've made Ellie a bit older and make her stand next to Joel for the entire game or just remove Joel altogether. As it stands, they're simply following the same pattern as other games.
Someone commented on this a few pages back. They have done this with Chloe. They overemphasize her bodyline. That same person commented on how Drake looks like a Calvin Klane model, and I agree. I never cared what they looked like, but it contradicts this argument.
TLoU doesn't really do anything innovative at all though. The story is fantastically written and acted but that's not something other developers can easily copy like they did with RE4's over the shoulder camera.
I think you can make the argument that Valve has already done a non-sexualized female protagonist ten years ago with Alyx Vance in Half-Life 2 and that hasn't changed the industry.
I don't know, maybe it's just me. It didn't kill the game for me, I still enjoyed it, I think it just took me out of the experience a little bit. I can look to another game with a mature story like Silent Hill 2 and I don't recall more than a handful of cuss words.
Great way of arguing, everything is strawman and denial denial denial. Even though we have a crapload of examples even in this forum with feminists obsessing about regulating sex in the media because they consider it degrading for women.
famousmortimer
Banned
As someone said earlier, you can replace Ashley with Nuclear launch codes and the story would remain the same. The same cannot be said for Ellie.
I see where you're trying to make your point, but you're viewing it all in a simple, general way. Sure the formula is similar, but the execution is very different than what most games are doing. I never played Zero, so I can't comment on how they did it.
What has the world of SH to do with The Last Of Us? Two totally different worlds.
The world in TLOU is totally fucked up. Hunters are murdering, raping, etc. innocent people. Ellie was "born" in the streets. Mother died, father is unknown, Marlene took care of here.
And you are asking why she is dropping the F-bomb all the time?
Ever heard teenagers talking? Did you see the world of TLOU?
It fits perfectly! It would take me out of the experience if it was the other way around.
Your distinction between side characters and main characters isn't really coherent.
As I said before, Ashley may be important in RE4's plot, but she's important the same way that the Ark of the Covenant is important in Raiders of the Lost Ark. She doesn't have a character at all, and she doesn't really change over the course of the journey. Honestly, nobody in RE4 has a character arc. It only cares about its story and characters to the extent that they can create fun action scenarios.
Ellie doesn't just
get significantly more playtime than Ashley as a self-sufficient, dangerous entity
(she's even the last character you control)
Now, she's not the main protagonist (so it's not the bravest of all possible games, I guess), but it'd be reductive to say that her writing and character goes in the same bin as a complete non-character just because she's not onscreen the entire game. Or that another character with minimal personality is better just because she's always potentially controllable.
MoogleWizard
Member
Only Naughty Dog can create a non-sexualized 12-year-old in a video game. I've grown so tired of all the sexualized child characters in skimpy outfits and sexy poses in this vile medium.
Thankfully the Naughty Gods had the guts to break this trend and change the industry for the better.
dragonbane
Member
Seems like Beyond is the game for you then.
Really? How can you reconcile this world view with the consistent opposition of feminists to slut shaming language? Women are sexual creatures, too, it's not like we're all prudes. The problem isn't recognizing female sexuality, it's trying to control or limit it (a typical puritanical move) or to equate a woman's value to her sexuality.
As for all the comments from others about ND obviously not having a choice when I comes to sexualizing Ellie because she's 12-14? You do realize she's a fictional character, right? She could have been any age they wanted, and they chose to put her right on the uncomfortable edge of maturity for a reason. The social conditioning of players helps tell the story they wanted to tell.
razoftblend
Member
Well, yeah; I'm generalizing and simplifying things for the sake of argument since a lot of game use this approach. Some will turn out better than others, but it's the same idea.
As for RE Zero, Billy is an ex-soldier (marine?), and Rebecca is a roockie officer. They're both have their strengths and weaknesses who get thrown into the whole zombie thing. They don't even know each other, but theu agree to help each other. I think she's 19 and Billy is much older. You can play as either throughout the whole game at the same time. There are just a couple of places where you must play as one of them. This in turn make the two equally important as main characters. In fact, I'd say Rebecca is more important since her medical knowledge gets them out of the hole.
CadetMahoney
Member
amen.
Actually, I'll address them after all.
Oversimplifies the problem. The act of having sex on camera is fine if that's what the actors and actresses have chosen to do. The problem is what goes on behind the camera (and sometimes still on the camera) where actresses (and actors) are coerced into things they don't want to do.
Note how there's that thread going on in OT discussing the HIV breakout in the porn community where it came out about actresses can't even really request that the men they work with wear condoms if the producers/directors don't want them to, and to complain about results in being threatened with losing your job.
Same issues. The act of stripping is fine on its own. The act of stripping for money is also fine on its own. What goes on behind the scenes isn't, and that eventually does bleed into what goes on stage.
It's really not about the sexualization. It's about the more subtle implications of what's going on.
Frankly, dudes should be more upset about it because it says a lot of horrible things about us that the people who make these things that all we need to see is an animated titty on that catgirl sprite to get us to start throwing money at their games and animes.
See above.
Puritans have issues with all those things strictly because of the sexual nature, while the issues feminists generally have with them lie with deeper issues than "omg they showed a boob". To conflate the two because they happen to take issues with the same general topics is silly.
Oversimplifies the problem. The act of having sex on camera is fine if that's what the actors and actresses have chosen to do. The problem is what goes on behind the camera (and sometimes still on the camera) where actresses (and actors) are coerced into things they don't want to do.
Note how there's that thread going on in OT discussing the HIV breakout in the porn community where it came out about actresses can't even really request that the men they work with wear condoms if the producers/directors don't want them to, and to complain about results in being threatened with losing your job.
Same issues. The act of stripping is fine on its own. The act of stripping for money is also fine on its own. What goes on behind the scenes isn't, and that eventually does bleed into what goes on stage.
It's really not about the sexualization. It's about the more subtle implications of what's going on.
Frankly, dudes should be more upset about it because it says a lot of horrible things about us that the people who make these things that all we need to see is an animated titty on that catgirl sprite to get us to start throwing money at their games and animes.
See above.
They do, but there are different subtleties going on there.
I'm pretty sure they bat an eye at prostitution in general.
This is just flat out bullshit.
Bioware gets a ton of flack for the way those characters have been portrayed.
Yes, Raiden and Vamp, prime examples of characters entirely popular across the board that nobody ever batted an eye too.
Puritans have issues with all those things strictly because of the sexual nature, while the issues feminists generally have with them lie with deeper issues than "omg they showed a boob". To conflate the two because they happen to take issues with the same general topics is silly.
I'm not the one who should answer for the inane inconsistencies within the feminist movement. Humans are sexual creatures and part of our "value" is our sexuality either you're male of female, let's not try to deny the superficial nature of humanity. The only group obsessing with regulating that value are feminists, they even have the delusion that they know the exact right amount.
TetraGenesis
Member
Although she isn't needlessly sexualized as you point out, Alyx Vance is still a bad (female) character that seems to exist solely to stroke the player ego. She even needs to be saved.
razoftblend
Member
I think what's causing this confusing is people overemphasizing my comparison of Ashly and Ellie. The only reason I'm comparing those two is because they're both side characters. In context, RE4 centers around saving Ashly, but anyone can say she's among the most useless "partners" out there. I'm not trying to make an argument against that or trying to downplay Ellie. It's simplt that they were both made into side characters. One is more developed than the other, but none of that is enough to change anything like the writers are trying to make it out.
She is nothing like Ashly, I GET THAT!
Edit: oh great, I just realized I was spelling Ashley's name wrong all the time and nobody told me. I'll just leave it like that for the lol's.
Scooter, I think you are also in error because you are conflating "feminism" as a single ideological entity, when it's actually a much broader umbrella that covers a lot of different stances.
Maybe you have encountered some who occupy a more puritanical stance, but they are either fringe or perhaps you've just misunderstood and simplified what they were saying.
Maybe you have encountered some who occupy a more puritanical stance, but they are either fringe or perhaps you've just misunderstood and simplified what they were saying.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
The only thing that really keeps me from saying how Ellie wasn't that unique or interesting is the snow stage/arc.
Even that felt like it had been done before, but it sure made the experience better. Joel was more interesting to me to be honest. The ending really makes that.
Even that felt like it had been done before, but it sure made the experience better. Joel was more interesting to me to be honest. The ending really makes that.
And they miserably failed. They tried but they couldn't avoid horrible immersion/atmosphaire cliches listed below:
Ellie turning into a
Joel turning
The poorly written ending that
Don't get me wrong, it's a great game gameplay-wise and a technical achievement in terms of art direction and overall atmosphaire, but they tried to tell a mature story, and while they did well in the first part of the game, they kinda lost it in the latter half.
And it was really a missed opportunity.
Uncharted 2 is probably the only game in this current generation that trully changed the whole industry to a more linear and cinematic experience. Even GTA V is clearly influenced from U2 mechanics, giving the feel of a more cinematic and "scripted" storyline.
Ellie turning into a
14y/o Lara Croft later in the game, targeting and killing hordes of multiple henchmen like there's no tomorrow. And her targeting controls being exactly like Joel (not increased sway due to inexperience/fear), was laughable. That kinda ruined the whole immersion that was built up until that point. It felt cheap and uninspired.
Joel turning
the hospital into a bloody bath tomb for the military soldiers with the classic dudebro-ish assault rifle that kinda fell forced to you and reverted the game into Uncharted-mode. The only trully interesting part of that stage were the radio recordings around the hospital.
The poorly written ending that
forced Joel into a single path without any tough moral choice that would affect the whole outcome (not killing Tess for example, or chose to sacrifice Ellie), resulting into the cliche Hollywood "non-ending" "pretentious mature" ending.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great game gameplay-wise and a technical achievement in terms of art direction and overall atmosphaire, but they tried to tell a mature story, and while they did well in the first part of the game, they kinda lost it in the latter half.
And it was really a missed opportunity.
Uncharted 2 is probably the only game in this current generation that trully changed the whole industry to a more linear and cinematic experience. Even GTA V is clearly influenced from U2 mechanics, giving the feel of a more cinematic and "scripted" storyline.
Those of us who have significant problems with Radfems (Especially TERFs, in my case) still find it annoying that the more reasonable feminists still leap for the 'fringe' or NAFALT defence.
There are some people out there who are saying some extremely vile things under the guise of feminism, and I personally would sleep better at night knowing that they were being addressed, not dismissed.
So you admit that feminists do that but you rationalize it with an excuse about a vague "what's going on behind the scenes" and you give as an example the fact that both men and women can't wear condoms because that's not what the industry wants. OK...
We aren't upset because we're not searching for trivial shit to complain about and from the looks of it we're less puritanical than feminists. Once again you admit that the problem with feminists exists and this time you don't even try to make up excuses, you just say that men should be offended.
The rest of your post is you pretty much saying "no you're wrong" to everything the poster mentioned which were some very valid points.
I'm talking about the kind of puritanical feminism being supported by most feminists in this forum and the US in general, I have clarified it many times. Sex-positive feminism is an entire different ideology that I have no problem with.
So by comparison, you think that this:
is descriptive of a majority view among women?
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I also don't see how the ending was so "hollywood" as people describe it.
Elway7Sharpe84
Banned
I would imagine so, as none of those things are held in high regard by society in general.
Well I think the differences between Joel and Ellie lies within their ages. Joel is old and mature, Eliie is young and is just exploring the outsides for the first time in her life. Even with those disadvantages, she
manged to save Joel's life twice in the game.
Two franchises I can think of that changed the industry or Gears and L4D.
Gears because its a big, blockbuster movie with 3rd person cover shootering.
L4D because its multiplayer game that built to be single player. Most of the story is told through the player's interaction with the environment instead of cut scenes and a level play through is always different due to procedural generation.
I didn't know cursing and 'mature storytelling' were mutually exclusive. And Ellie cursing is one of the reasons I loved that character. It was cute, funny, and made her feel like a real person. There was nothing forced or awkward about it all, it felt completely natural. People calling something 'forced' seems to be a catch all buzzword now a days that people just use when they can't articulate criticism.