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[LukasTaves]

it might be overkill on xb1 yea, but on PS4? You can't just say it is based on one machine. If you could base it on just one machine let's look at other GPU's made by AMD they certainly don't find 32 ROP's overkill when you have a bandwidth of 176gb/s, in fact they use 32 ROP's with much less:

7850 32 ROP's 156gb/s
7870 32 ROP's 156gb/s

Comparing with desktops gpus is not the way to go, because they are designed to at least support a myriad of different resolutions above 1080p.

If you look at 360's ROP count and fillrate numbers it also seemed a little puny compared to gpus of the time, but it did had bandwidth to deliver the fillrate, and since the console was developed with a 720p resolution in mind that fillrate was adequate for most titles.

And again: Xbone is better equipped to do 1080p (in both ROPs and memory buffer size) than 360 was.

The only "evidence" they have is that somebody who works at Microsoft is saying in the XB1 they are only sometimes limited by ROP's.

They could run the math and realize that xbone has proportionally 40% more fillrate and memory for the framebuffer than 360, and realize that this statement is probably true?

Let's look at that Bandwidth example closer shall we?

8 bytes write 4 byte read for a total of 164gb/s which pretty much saturates their esram bandwidth, sounds a little odd to me.

Let's quote Goosens himself speaking about the esram:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects


Now bear in mind this information comes from the same interview but in a different article. 164 is bigger than 140-150 In fact, i'd say he's a little off with his "pretty much" saturates the esram bandwidth, but wait, there's more.

You are completely mixing arguments there.

There are two different affirmations:

- The ROPs need 164GB/s to be saturated.
- The real world bandwidth that shipping games are already achieving on esram is 140-150 GB/s.

What is the esram's maximum theoritcal bandwidth in write only? 109gb/s
What are his bandwidth numbers again? 164 with a split of 8:4 between write and read, which would be a total of: 109.333333gb/s write and 54.6666gb/s read what do you notice? It's higher than the 109gb/s maximum theoretical peak

Do you notice that in the same article you are quoting they mention that you can read *and* write at the same time on esram? And even though you can't read and write at the same time all the time that the theoretical cap is 204 GB/s?

Why Am I the only one doing this math, why isn't Richard Leadbetter? In one interview he has gone from 140-150 to suddenly using 164 and over the maximum theoretical write speed.

That is why this does not pass my smell test.

Because 140-150GB/s is a real world measured/benchmarked/tested performance from an actual running game. 164 is the theoretical bandwidth all the ROPs could use if they were active all the time. In a real game you are not going to go that far all the time. But if you think about bandwidth per clock instead of seconds, it means that there are portions within a frame were pretty much all the bandwidth of the system is going to the ROPs. If you have more ROPs that time would be lower? Yes, but they also would require more bandwidth, so at a target resolution, having an extra of them will not necessarily make much of a difference.

 

[skdoo]

Originally Posted by Nafai1123
People around here might not be fooled, but other parts of the internet are strange places. I think they are doing exactly what they want to be doing, spreading FUD and giving fanboys enough "evidence" to keep them excited.

As someone who is very familiar with MS methods, this is how the company uses FUD. I work in the networking space both against and with MS, depending upon the technology in question. This is how the company works - you have just never seen it before from the XBox division, but MS on high is making the calls these days. FUD.

 

[Elios83]

Just read the thread and I think this is becoming surreal.
Microsoft is basically admitting that they didn't design a game console in first place but an entertainment box that also plays games based around Kinect, 10% of an already not so powerful GPU is currently reserved to a camera.
Now they're struggling knowing they have an underpowered machine at the higher price and they're trying to do whatever they can to give more margins to developers (through small upclocks and promising to free currently allocated resources as much as they can in the future).
They are telling all this by themselves using Digital Foundry as some kind of PR partner in spreading their message.
Honestly what's next?
"Yeah we're know we're gonna lose in the first months, forget about us until we fix the damage done by Mattrick and Ballmer and we get rid of Kinect next year?"

 

[Imperfected]

Got to laugh at the people who thought this was good news.

It's like your boss telling you "you will have to work for a 10% reduction in pay, but we may be able to reduce that in the future? possibly?"

"wow, so like a possible future pay rise! thanks"

I suppose to some degree it's my own fault for not having thought more deeply about it sooner. I'm so used to consoles either being in either 'play game' mode or 'dashboard' mode that it honestly hadn't occurred to me that they would need to be reserving a significant amount of non-RAM resources for Kinect menu navigation and the like to work in concert with their "instant" interface push. I mean, in retrospect it's obvious, but it's just not an issue I'm used to a console having.

There's just a certain irony that it would have probably slipped by me completely if they hadn't decided to try and sell it as an upshot with a bit of spin-doctoring. Uh, thanks for (unintentionally) keeping me informed as a consumer, Microsoft - I guess? Keep up the good work?

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Just read the thread and I think this is becoming surreal.
Microsoft is basically admitting that they didn't design a game console in first place but an entertainment box that also plays games based around Kinect, 10% of an already not so powerful GPU is currently reserved to a camera.
Now they're struggling knowing they have an underpowered machine at the higher price and they're trying to do whatever they can to give more margins to developers (through small upclocks and promosing to free currently allocated resources as much as they can in the future).
They are telling all this by themselves using Digital Foundry as some kind of PR partner in spreading their message.
Honestly what's next?
"Yeah we're know we're gonna lose in the first months, forget about us until we fix the damage done by Mattrick and Ballmer and we get rid of Kinect next year?"

Before this year, the last few MS E3's should of told you everything. I can't remember who said or exactly what was stated in a interview but it was along the lines of " we deliberately did not target higher graphical capability "

I think your post is a good one, it's how I personally feel about Xbox at the moment. When they get it right Xbox has been brilliant in my opinion but this year...fuck sake.

 

[WordsintheWater]

It is nice to know that there may be additional resources available in the future, but along with everything else that has gone on and given the company's history it just seems like they're trying to confuse people at this point.

I think they tried to show off the Kinect, but that it didn't excite people like they were hoping it would so now they're just stuck responding to what their competitors are doing (never a good spot to be in as a CE company). Given that the hype train already came and went for Kinect on 360 and without a lot of big games supporting Kinect well on XBONE to sell people on it, how are they supposed to differentiate their product?
.

I'd personally just focus on the games that can't be played anywhere else, the Halos, the Gears all of that good stuff. Focus on the multimedia aspect, since that's what this machines does best. And they didn't do a good enough job showing Kinect, because they only showed one game for it that looks remotely fun and the other is a terrible throwaway. It just becomes more and more apparent they weren't ready to launch this year.

Speaking about the possibility of getting more power from their GPU in the future just brought to light that the GPU is even weaker than what most people already thought. There was no reason to even bring this up in my opinion, down the road they could have been like we can now get a certain percentage more from our GPU. I dunno it's just every time they speak something new that's a negative comes out.

 

[Night Angel]

As a programmer and tech enthusiast, I'm much much more impressed/interested with what MS is doing with XB1 as a whole.

Talking about their system in depth isn't a way to "show" they're desperate or anything like that at all... Instead, they're being HONEST. Seriously, I hear less and less about PS4's technical features and that's just makes that boring to me lol. XB1 on the other hand... definitely some interesting tech going on in there. I wouldn't be surprised if XB1's overall gaming performance is similar to the PS4's with all the off-load co-processors and customized hardware. The only thing we know PS4 has more is TFLOPs, the amount of floating point it can churn though, but as for gaming performance... That's really hard to figure because it's complex stuff beyond numbers (well, not really, but it's beyond a COUPLE of NUMBERS. There's hundreds of factors.)

And no secret sauce. Just plain understanding of technology.

Well, that's just my opinion so don't take it seriously and try to eat me up.

So as a tech enthusiast, you feel that you can ignore the fact that the PS4 is technically superior to the XB1 in every way (aside from CPU speed/audio--lol) because of some co-processors that we don't know anything about? And about which there is no indication that they significantly enhance performance?

Yeah. I don't buy it.

 

[RoboPlato]

Before this year, the last few MS E3's should of told you everything. I can't remember who said or exactly what was stated in a interview but it was along the lines of " we deliberately did not target higher graphical capability "

I think your post is a good one, it's how I personally feel about Xbox at the moment. When they get it right Xbox has been brilliant in my opinion but this year...fuck sake.

I agree. It's really insane how many parallels this whole situation has with Sony in 2006. So much burned good will in such a short amount of time.

 

[NTIETS13A_Superiority]

I wouldn't be surprised if XB1's overall gaming performance is similar to the PS4's with all the off-load co-processors and customized hardware. The only thing we know PS4 has more is TFLOPs, the amount of floating point it can churn though, but as for gaming performance...
Just plain understanding of technology.

I had mild displeasure to read your overly long posts again in KZ thread. You say that you are in networking eh.
That poop up there does not seem like understanding of tech.
But whatever. because imo.

 

[Skeff]

Comparing with desktops gpus is not the way to go, because they are designed to at least support a myriad of different resolutions above 1080p.

By increasing the resolution the only way the required bandwidth would change would also to increase and as we know these GPU's have less Bandwidth than PS4. At higher resolution even higher bandwidth would be required, yet these GPU's have higher ROP's and 156gb/s bandwidth.

Do you notice that in the same article you are quoting they mention that you can read *and* write at the same time on esram? And even though you can't read and write at the same time all the time that the theoretical cap is 204 GB/s?

Look closer, he states 164 with an 8:4 split, that is 109.3333gb/s write. that is higher than 109gb/s write. It's not rocket science. Taking just the write bandwidth of the net 164 give's you a figure higher than the 109 that is possible.

They could run the math and realize that xbone has proportionally 40% more fillrate and memory for the framebuffer than 360, and realize that this statement is probably true?

Probably true? well I'd say it's unlikely a PS4 will ever hit the Pixel fillrate as a bottleneck, however I certainly wouldn't take this to mean that:

PlayStation 4's 32 ROPs are generally acknowledged as overkill for a 1080p resolution

Generally acknowledged means most people know this, as in know it for certain, It's apparently fine to come out with this as most people knowing a fact but yet Microsoft gets the benefit of the doubt with muddy statements such as:

Xbox One's 16 ROPs could theoretically be overwhelmed by developers.

Do you see the difference in language?

 

[Biker19]

For the most part, yes. It was $200 cheaper and had more appealing exclusives in the opinion of many during its first few years. That's not to mention how much Xbox Live took off.

I mean, we are talking about the system that competed against the successor to the PS2.... the PS2. It couldn't have ate into that success simply due to releasing first and nothing more -- especially given the position the Xbox brand was in before 2006.

The 360 was popular because of Sony's foul-ups with the PS3. Robbie Bach even admitted it.

As a matter of fact, everyone was anticipating the PS3 more so than either the Wii or the Xbox 360; Fans, 3rd party publishers, & critics alike.

Which is interesting when you see the similarities between MS in designing the 360 and Sony designing the PS4. MS got developer input when designing the 360 and after Epic told them they really needed to bump the RAM up to 512, they did it. This time Sony was getting developer feedback and got told by Gearbox that they needed to up the RAM from 4GB to 8GB and they did it.

And Microsoft spent $1 Billion just to double the 360's RAM to 512 MB's. I don't know how much Sony spent going from 2 GB's of GDDR5 RAM, to 4 GB's, then to 8 GB's.

 

[Shmuely Bully]

Just read the thread and I think this is becoming surreal.
Microsoft is basically admitting that they didn't design a game console in first place but an entertainment box that also plays games based around Kinect, 10% of an already not so powerful GPU is currently reserved to a camera.
Now they're struggling knowing they have an underpowered machine at the higher price and they're trying to do whatever they can to give more margins to developers (through small upclocks and promising to free currently allocated resources as much as they can in the future).
They are telling all this by themselves using Digital Foundry as some kind of PR partner in spreading their message.
Honestly what's next?
"Yeah we're know we're gonna lose in the first months, forget about us until we fix the damage done by Mattrick and Ballmer and we get rid of Kinect next year?"

But really, what else can they do? We know all about their launch lineup by now and it's too late to try and rush another big name exclusive out for launch. They're more expensive, less powerful, and even prior to those becoming apparent they were beginning to be viewed less favorably by people like us (a.k.a. likely early adopters).

Having a house cleaning so soon before launch also gave people plenty of thoughts, few of them good about why that might have happened. The Xbox One looks like they either fundamentally misunderstood their target audience or willfully disregarded it.

I will give them some credit, they really seem to be trying their best at this point to turn things around and I imagine things will turn out mostly ok for them in the end, but it's really hard to shake the impression that they're rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic after all of that.

I'd personally just focus on the games that can't be played anywhere else, the Halos, the Gears all of that good stuff. Focus on the multimedia aspect, since that's what this machines does best. And they didn't do a good enough job showing Kinect, because they only showed one game for it that looks remotely fun and the other is a terrible throwaway. It just becomes more and more apparent they weren't ready to launch this year.

Speaking about the possibility of getting more power from their GPU in the future just brought to light that the GPU is even weaker than what most people already thought. There was no reason to even bring this up in my opinion, down the road they could have been like we can now get a certain percentage more from our GPU. I dunno it's just every time they speak something new that's a negative comes out.

That seems like a fair point here, if a new Halo or Gears was ready to be shown it would have been, after all it's not like they're releasing any similar exclusives around launch. Forza is a well-liked franchise, but it isn't much bigger than Killzone when it comes to sales.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

damn, the amount of sony shills here attacking anybody that is remotely positive about the xbox 1.

 

[stryke]

As a programmer and tech enthusiast, I'm much much more impressed/interested with what MS is doing with XB1 as a whole.

Talking about their system in depth isn't a way to "show" they're desperate or anything like that at all... Instead, they're being HONEST. Seriously, I hear less and less about PS4's technical features and that's just makes that boring to me lol. XB1 on the other hand... definitely some interesting tech going on in there. I wouldn't be surprised if XB1's overall gaming performance is similar to the PS4's with all the off-load co-processors and customized hardware. The only thing we know PS4 has more is TFLOPs, the amount of floating point it can churn though, but as for gaming performance... That's really hard to figure because it's complex stuff beyond numbers (well, not really, but it's beyond a COUPLE of NUMBERS. There's hundreds of factors.)

And no secret sauce. Just plain understanding of technology.

Well, that's just my opinion so don't take it seriously and try to eat me up.

Gotta love the "opinion" defense.

Did you know opinions can be wrong and scrutinised?

 

[R3TRODYCE]

damn, the amount of sony shills here attacking anybody that is remotely positive about the xbox 1.

I was going to bed but now I'll stick around for the show.

 

[Night Angel]

damn, gaf is starting to disappoint me.

Nice edit hahaha. Yeah... nothing you ever post again matters. Thanks for the laugh.

Sony shills everwhur!

 

[Ateron]

As a programmer and tech enthusiast, I'm much much more impressed/interested with what MS is doing with XB1 as a whole.

Talking about their system in depth isn't a way to "show" they're desperate or anything like that at all... Instead, they're being HONEST. Seriously, I hear less and less about PS4's technical features and that's just makes that boring to me lol. XB1 on the other hand... definitely some interesting tech going on in there. I wouldn't be surprised if XB1's overall gaming performance is similar to the PS4's with all the off-load co-processors and customized hardware. The only thing we know PS4 has more is TFLOPs, the amount of floating point it can churn though, but as for gaming performance... That's really hard to figure because it's complex stuff beyond numbers (well, not really, but it's beyond a COUPLE of NUMBERS. There's hundreds of factors.)

And no secret sauce. Just plain understanding of technology.

Well, that's just my opinion so don't take it seriously and try to eat me up.

 

[Skeff]

damn, the amount of sony shills here attacking anybody that is remotely positive about the xbox 1.

Shills? I do not think that word means what you think it means....

Either that or your accusing everyone in here of being paid?

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

I was going to bed but now I'll stick around for the show.

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes these corps and that's fine. that's actually great. I thougth what gaf did with the drm stuff was awesome.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive these days.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready to pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, a biased has very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

 

[Chobel]

damn, the amount of sony shills here attacking anybody that is remotely positive about the xbox 1.

You may wanna change that...

 

[Mr Moose]

As a programmer and tech enthusiast, I'm much much more impressed/interested with what MS is doing with XB1 as a whole.

Talking about their system in depth isn't a way to "show" they're desperate or anything like that at all... Instead, they're being HONEST. Seriously, I hear less and less about PS4's technical features and that's just makes that boring to me lol. XB1 on the other hand... definitely some interesting tech going on in there. I wouldn't be surprised if XB1's overall gaming performance is similar to the PS4's with all the off-load co-processors and customized hardware. The only thing we know PS4 has more is TFLOPs, the amount of floating point it can churn though, but as for gaming performance... That's really hard to figure because it's complex stuff beyond numbers (well, not really, but it's beyond a COUPLE of NUMBERS. There's hundreds of factors.)

And no secret sauce. Just plain understanding of technology.

Well, that's just my opinion so don't take it seriously and try to eat me up.

This can only end well. Should have started with Hey guys, you get points for that, at least (MS points though... which I believe these days convert into cash?).

The only thing MS has over Sony this gen is Kinect, and as far as I am aware not many want it (it IS a nice piece of kit, though, I do enjoy gadgets). HDMI in is a piece of crap, you need cable TV and it only works in the US and Japan (correct me if I am wrong, please).

Apps: behind a paywall (including Skype? also probably coming to PS4).

CPU increase isn't enough to be anything special, so yeah, just Kinect. If you fancy jumping around in front of your TV, then it'll be so good and well worth the asking price (the Wii with Fit sold plenty).

Edit: Incoming Bish to check his details?

 

[digoutyoursoul]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes this corps and that's fine.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready pounce.

Just tell them to fuck off then

 

[Chobel]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes this corps and that's fine.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready pounce.

Because he was spreading incorrect information.

 

[frizby]

As a programmer and tech enthusiast, I'm much much more impressed/interested with what MS is doing with XB1 as a whole.

Talking about their system in depth isn't a way to "show" they're desperate or anything like that at all... Instead, they're being HONEST. Seriously, I hear less and less about PS4's technical features and that's just makes that boring to me lol. XB1 on the other hand... definitely some interesting tech going on in there. I wouldn't be surprised if XB1's overall gaming performance is similar to the PS4's with all the off-load co-processors and customized hardware. The only thing we know PS4 has more is TFLOPs, the amount of floating point it can churn though, but as for gaming performance... That's really hard to figure because it's complex stuff beyond numbers (well, not really, but it's beyond a COUPLE of NUMBERS. There's hundreds of factors.)

And no secret sauce. Just plain understanding of technology.

Well, that's just my opinion so don't take it seriously and try to eat me up.

Whaaaat?

I know this horse has been beaten quite a bit already, and I'm just a lowly junior, but this post is a special kind of bad. My best translation of the nonsense above, and please correct me if I'm reading it wrong:

I love technology. I love it really complicated. It's more interesting that way. I don't care about the actual objective output of said technology because that's just numbers. I'm more interested in how complicated and difficult to explain it is. I can't explain beyond numbers, and numbers are so big anyway, so nevermind that. It's more of a feeling really, not about the objective application of technology to a given task, but rather "technology" as an abstract idea...and ideally from Microsoft.

 

[Ishida]

Whaaaat?

I know this horse has been beaten quite a bit already, and I'm just a lowly junior, but this post is a special kind of bad. My best translation of the nonsense above, and please correct me if I'm reading it wrong:

I love technology. I love it really complicated. It's more interesting that way. I don't care about the actual objective output of said technology because that's just numbers. I'm more interested in how complicated and difficult to explain it is. I can't explain beyond numbers, and numbers are so big anyway, so nevermind that. It's more of a feeling really, not about the objective application of technology to a given task, but rather "technology" as an abstract idea...and ideally from Microsoft.

I cannot begin to describe how hard I laughed.

 

[LukasTaves]

By increasing the resolution the only way the required bandwidth would change would also to increase and as we know these GPU's have less Bandwidth than PS4. At higher resolution even higher bandwidth would be required, yet these GPU's have higher ROP's and 156gb/s bandwidth.

That's a good point, I have some counter arguments in mind, but I would need to check how those gpus handle high resolutions in bandwidth intense scenarios (games with tons of transparency)

Look closer, he states 164 with an 8:4 split, that is 109.3333gb/s write. that is higher than 109gb/s write. It's not rocket science. Taking just the write bandwidth of the net 164 give's you a figure higher than the 109 that is possible.

I'm not sure what you are getting into here... The esram has a 1024 bit bus. That's 128 bytes per clock, or 16 times 8 bytes per clock, or 16 ROPs doing each a 8 byte write per clock.

Probably true? well I'd say it's unlikely a PS4 will ever hit the Pixel fillrate as a bottleneck, however I certainly wouldn't take this to mean that:



Generally acknowledged means most people know this, as in know it for certain, It's apparently fine to come out with this as most people knowing a fact but yet Microsoft gets the benefit of the doubt with muddy statements such as:

I don't get it, you are assuming he is saying 32 ROPs is an overkill only because he just heard that from Ms?

Do you see the difference in language?

That in one statement he says that 32 ROPs is much more than needed for 1080p, and in the other he acknowledges that 16 ROPs in some scenarios might not be enough?

 

[Hoje0308]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes this corps and that's fine.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, it has biased very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

You mean the guy that made it obvious that he either doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about, or is trying to downplay the clear advantages PS4 has over X1?
I don't care what console you or anyone else prefers. What I do care about is honesty and not making shit up to justify a purchase you plan on making in the future.
Also, what is this positive news you're talking about? MS admitting that their GPU is effectively 10% less useful for games is not good news, no matter how the actual shills try to spin it.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes these corps and that's fine. that's actually great. I thougth what gaf did with the drm stuff was awesome.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive these days.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready to pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, a biased has very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

No, people claiming the Xbox one is on the same level hardware wise as the PS4 get eaten alive because you know..facts.

 

[R3TRODYCE]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes this corps and that's fine.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, a biased has very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

Not really, I'm interested in the one and no one bothers me. I just see people getting called out for debating against facts because lettuce bee cereal we know the ps4 is stronger so why deny that.

 

[Mr Moose]

Whaaaat?

I know this horse has been beaten quite a bit already, and I'm just a lowly junior, but this post is a special kind of bad. My best translation of the nonsense above, and please correct me if I'm reading it wrong:

I love technology. I love it really complicated. It's more interesting that way. I don't care about the actual objective output of said technology because that's just numbers. I'm more interested in how complicated and difficult to explain it is. I can't explain beyond numbers, and numbers are so big anyway, so nevermind that. It's more of a feeling really, not about the objective application of technology to a given task, but rather "technology" as an abstract idea...and ideally from Microsoft.

LOL! sogood.gif

 

[Ateron]

Whaaaat?

I know this horse has been beaten quite a bit already, and I'm just a lowly junior, but this post is a special kind of bad. My best translation of the nonsense above, and please correct me if I'm reading it wrong:

I love technology. I love it really complicated. It's more interesting that way. I don't care about the actual objective output of said technology because that's just numbers. I'm more interested in how complicated and difficult to explain it is. I can't explain beyond numbers, and numbers are so big anyway, so nevermind that. It's more of a feeling really, not about the objective application of technology to a given task, but rather "technology" as an abstract idea...and ideally from Microsoft.

Reads like something Kutaragi would say after a few drinks

I laughed, it was a very balanced post

 

[stryke]

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready pounce.

It's fine to be interested in X1 hardware.

It's also fine to assert that X1 can perform on par with PS4, if you can actually substantiate it. However, eluding to some unspecified nebulous coprocessors and "I work in networking" is not good enough.

 

[Night Angel]

Whaaaat?

I know this horse has been beaten quite a bit already, and I'm just a lowly junior, but this post is a special kind of bad. My best translation of the nonsense above, and please correct me if I'm reading it wrong:

I love technology. I love it really complicated. It's more interesting that way. I don't care about the actual objective output of said technology because that's just numbers. I'm more interested in how complicated and difficult to explain it is. I can't explain beyond numbers, and numbers are so big anyway, so nevermind that. It's more of a feeling really, not about the objective application of technology to a given task, but rather "technology" as an abstract idea...and ideally from Microsoft.

Feels > reals. #truthfact

I'm waiting for a rebuttal that makes sense. I will likely be disappointed.

Since I'm going to have a Kinect, I'll be pissed if they jank it up by removing the resources it needs post-release. Punishing their early adopters would be a terrible shame. I bet they won't be able to release much of that GPU to devs from optimization alone, so this is either bad news or no news at all in my eyes.

 

[UNCMark]

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundry is being money hatted by Microsoft.

I will agree with you on that one point. It's amusing to watch the same people say that DF is paid off by MS and then also say they can't wait for next gen to start so that PS4 versions of games win all the face-offs at DF. If DF was paid off, how would the PS4 versions win? The math. It doesn't add up.

Your point about shills is pure bunk. 'Shills' implies taking part in a ruse to gain a profit. This is just fans being fans.

 

[Piggus]

lol, he was banned already. Another email suggesting he was a shill? (as if his post didn't already do that lmao)

 

[frizby]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes these corps and that's fine. that's actually great. I thougth what gaf did with the drm stuff was awesome.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive these days.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready to pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, a biased has very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

Your first problem is that reality happens to biased against Microsoft right now, as they have bungled this console launch in just about every conceivable way.

Your second problem is that this forum demands a level of intellectual honesty and rigor that you don't seem to be comfortable with, and that rigor often results in bullcrap being labeled as bullcrap.

Your third problem is that you are accusing a broad swathe of the forum of being shills with a complete lack of the intellecual honesty or rigor previously noted but rather based on a "feeling you have".

Good luck.

 

[Ricerocket]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes this corps and that's fine.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, a biased has very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

I'm pretty sure a large part of what is happening is that MS pissed off a lot of folks and pushed them over to another competitor with their reveal and all the mixed messages they are giving. People did not just choose a side for nothing.

 

[Mr Moose]

Feels > reals. #truthfact

I'm waiting for a rebuttal that makes sense. I will likely be disappointed.

Since I'm going to have a Kinect, I'll be pissed if they jank it up by removing the resources it needs post-release. Punishing their early adopters would be a terrible shame. I bet they won't be able to release much of that GPU to devs from optimization alone, so this is either bad news or no news at all in my eyes.

No matter what they do, they cannot match the PS4, so what they really need to do is sell the kinect idea, it's a good piece of kit, it needs to be out there more (although they shouldn't show that family jumping around like loons lol).

If I was getting an Xbox One, it wouldn't be for the multiplats (wouldn't be for the HDMI In cable TV, doesn't work here, although they need to sell that to the US market), it'd be for the exlusives (Ryse looks and from what I hear, plays shit, so not that one, Forza 5 needs work on lighting and shadows, but their best next gen game at launch for me is Killer Instinct, that game looks pretty damn good).

Kinect Yoga incoming, you're welcome MicroSoft! (damn I should have sold this idea).

Sell what you can do, not try to spin what you don't have, please MS, do yourself a favour.

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

These guys? I'm a gamer, exactly like you. I do work in programming.. Look at my short (lol) history. The stuff I said in that Killzone thread is not BS or anything. And, I'm not saying PS4 is weaker or anything close to that... Just think the tech talks are interesting. I'll elaborate more when I get time maybe.

Not enough malt liquor in the world for bodycounts like these. Should've elaborated quicker, maybe.

What a fucking thread. Loving it, thanks NeoGAF for making my day that much more interdasting.

I'm astounded that the 10% rumor ended up being right on point. I thought it sounded a bit high, but I was wrong. Damn, MS, that Kinect better be something special.

 

[Brannon]

The ride never ends...

 

[BigJoeGrizzly]

I look forward to both consoles providing great gaming experiences.

 

[Mr Moose]

Not enough malt liquor in the world for bodycounts like these. Should've elaborated quicker, maybe.

What a fucking thread. Loving it, thanks NeoGAF for making my day that much more interdasting.

I'm astounded that the 10% rumor ended up being right on point. I thought it sounded a bit high, but I was wrong. Damn, MS, that Kinect better be something special.

Oh shit that was fast lol...

Bishinated...

 

[Skeff]

I'm not sure what you are getting into here... The esram has a 1024 bit bus. That's 128 bits per clock, or 16 times 8 bits per clock, or 16 ROPs doing each a 8bit write per clock.

Well he says in the example used that it would be 8Bytes per pixel for write and 4 for read. so a simple split on the bandwidth he reports as 164gb/s, a quick and dirty tear down of that would show that 164gb/s is comprised of 109.33gb/s Write and 54.66gb/s read. But we know the esram only has an absolute maximum of 109gb/s.

After further maths I get the esram bandwith to be (1024*853)/8 = 109.184 gb/s.

Doing the exact math on the write at 8 bytes per pixel and using their 13.65 GPixel puts us at 109.2gb/s require write bandwidth.

This means the scenario listed is not possible on the xb1. Perhaps Richard should have pointed this out? The technical fellow certainly gives the impression this is doable on xb1, he even says "nearly saturating" which implies there is esram bandwidth spare, despite overshooting the write bandwidth.

Regarding my final point, It is not what he says but it's how he says it, the difference in absolutes and maybe's are a common theme in his write up.

For instance in the GPU comparison write up where he came to 25% difference, he gave XB1 the benefit of the doubt on memory bandwidth and ROP's. It is the consistency on which he gives Microsoft the benefit of the doubt in these scenarios and yet pushes an article to release regarding the ps4 ram allocation, which is quickly called out by many developers, none of which he spoke to before putting the article out. BTW in the incorrect RAM article there were a lot of things written as absolutes, which were simply not true.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm astounded that the 10% rumor ended up being right on point. I thought it sounded a bit high, but I was wrong. Damn, MS, that Kinect better be something special.

Of course it's special!

*first Kinect flagship title launching sometime in Spring 2014*
*almost every announced Kinect game is a derivative of some shitty game or idea that came out on Kinect already, suggesting developers are running on fumes*

I mean... the voice and gestural UI navigation! In some countries, I mean! Well, in 13 countries anyway! Well, most of the features, some won't be ready for the launches in the 13 countries! But yeah! It detects your heartbeat! *swoon*

*only* $100 more...

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Tech threads are becoming a graveyard for new members.
MS needs to show people how great kinect is talking about specs is not going to help .

 

[Wynnebeck]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes these corps and that's fine. that's actually great. I thougth what gaf did with the drm stuff was awesome.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive these days.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready to pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, a biased has very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

So Bish coming in here and banning astroturfers all over the place, MS increasing their obfuscation over the power difference between PS4 and Xbone, and NeoGAF rightly calling out FUD and bullshit from legit shills and overzealous fanboys is being biased? Spare me bruh.

 

[USC-fan]

Well he says in the example used that it would be 8Bytes per pixel for write and 4 for read. so a simple split on the bandwidth he reports as 164gb/s, a quick and dirty tear down of that would show that 164gb/s is comprised of 109.33gb/s Write and 54.66gb/s read. But we know the esram only has an absolute maximum of 109gb/s.

After further maths I get the esram bandwith to be (1024*853)/8 = 109.184 gb/s.

Doing the exact math on the write at 8 bytes per pixel and using their 13.65 GPixel puts us at 109.2gb/s require write bandwidth.

This means the scenario listed is not possible on the xb1. Perhaps Richard should have pointed this out? The technical fellow certainly gives the impression this is doable on xb1, he even says "nearly saturating" which implies there is esram bandwidth spare, despite overshooting the write bandwidth.

Regarding my final point, It is not what he says but it's how he says it, the difference in absolutes and maybe's are a common theme in his write up.

For instance in the GPU comparison write up where he came to 25% difference, he gave XB1 the benefit of the doubt on memory bandwidth and ROP's. It is the consistency on which he gives Microsoft the benefit of the doubt in these scenarios and yet pushes an article to release regarding the ps4 ram allocation, which is quickly called out by many developers, none of which he spoke to before putting the article out.

Do you know how cache factor into these measurements?

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes these corps and that's fine. that's actually great. I thougth what gaf did with the drm stuff was awesome.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive these days.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready to pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, a biased has very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

It really no different when the PS3 launch. I know people a lot of people were not around then but just look back at the gaf threads at e3'05-'06. People to this day still bring up get 2 jobs for the ps3, $599!!!, or the million other thing sony mishandled during that launch.

It okay to like the xbone. Im sure a ton of people on gaf will buy one. Just like a lot of people bought the PS3 down the road. Its really the fanboy that are having the trouble.

DF is not being "money hatted" but they are not going to bite the hand that feeds them. MS sent these people to DF to play down the spec difference between the two system. It really had little to do with how the xb1 worked. If they just focused on their console and not bring up PS4 in every other sentence it would go over a lot better IMO.

 

[Barzul]

enjoy it.

I mean, I understand gaf scrutinizes these corps and that's fine. that's actually great. I thougth what gaf did with the drm stuff was awesome.

but I mean, a dude remotely interested in the xbox 1 here gets eaten alive these days.

I mean look at the dude that is interested in the xb1 architecture. There were people ready to pounce.

I mean people here immediately saying that digital foundary is being money hatted by Microsoft.

Can I say the same thing about any website that publishes interviews/article about Sony?

it's becoming very one sided here. Use to seem very balanced, but the last 6 months, a biased has very much grown here and seems to be going against everything that neogaf stood for.

This. When Cerny speaks it's all fine and good, when Leadbetter writes an article that is getting information from Xbox One architects, it's ripped to shreds and it's MS moneyhatted Digital Foundry. It's why I try to stay out of these threads once they devolve to console warz which doesn't take very long. You have to really dig to find balanced responses in these kinds threads as most post with their bias, I do it too, but at least I can admit it.

 

[Mr Moose]

The 10% thing, does that include Kinect, the 3 OS and other things? Or is it just one OS or ... I don't know, it confuses me why you'd need 3

 

[Night Angel]

Of course it's special!

*first Kinect flagship title launching sometime in Spring 2014*
*almost every announced Kinect game is a derivative of some shitty game or idea that came out on Kinect already, suggesting developers are running on fumes*

I mean... the voice and gestural UI navigation! In some countries, I mean! Well, in 13 countries anyway! Well, most of the features, not all will work in all countries! But yeah!

Stop make me cry, Amir0x.

If MS is making everyone buy the Kinect for nothing... shit. They'll already have my money. Hopefully the menu stuff is worth it, because I'm doubtful there will ever be Kinect only games that are any good. Maybe it'll get fus-ro-dah capabilities or something. *sigh

This just in: calling out obvious bias makes you biased! /facepalm