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[szaromir]

Cheer up

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This and that X RPG from monolith look better than any PS360 games. Shame there aren't that many games that push WiiU though.

That's plainly false and you know it.
The Wii had a 19 mm^2 CPU and a 79 mm^2 GPU/DSP/ARM/Northbridge die.
The WiiU has a 27,73 mm^2 CPU and a 146,48 mm^2 GPU/DSP/ARM/Northbridge die.
The GC had a 43 mm^2 CPU and a 110 mm^2 GPU/DSP/ARM/Northbridge die.

In terms of die area the chips are clearly much more than they were on the Wii, in fact, their combined area is bigger on the WiiU than on the GC.

WiiU processors are 14% bigger than GC's yet the launch price was 75% higher. I wouldn't mind Nintendo releasing a budget console if it actually had a budget price.

 

[cookie-monster]

Not really adding anything to the discussion, but how would playing your WiiU more stop it gathering dust? What do you do with your console whilst you're playing games on it that prevents dust gathering on it?

My Wii U gathers dust because I'm too busy playing on it to actually do any dusting.

 

[The_Lump]

My Wii U gathers dust because I'm too bust playing on it to actually do any dusting.

Well played, sir.

Nintendo being out of touch with evolution of tech industries and what developers expect for game development has been a consistently reoccurring issue for a significant portion of the company's history going all the way back to the SNES. Often they learn and make amendments, just usually far later than they should have. Sometimes they make a projection/gamble and get it super right (see: Wii market success). Sometimes they get it completely wrong in face of stubbornness (see: HD television penetration rate). Nintendo's policy towards indy devs on their estore, for example, is apparently really fucking fantastic now. But it took years of utter bullshit to get to this point, and it's not really working in their favour when others are doing the same/similar things with better framework to support them.

Nintendo might project that they made a system easy to work with. Just because they believe that doesn't make it true. They're as fallible as anyone else, and just as prone to making catastrophically bad decisions backed by poor reasoning.

I agree completely and I'm aware of their track record all too well. What I think/thought was different this time is that by all accounts they were trying to change, listening to 3rd party needs and trying to avoid the mistakes from last gen - just looks like they got cold feet at some point before the project was finalised and they went back to square one. I don't think they would ever have put 3rd parties above their own needs of course, but I think they were aiming for more of a middle ground than what they ended up with.

 

[freezamite]

This and that X RPG from monolith look better than any PS360 games. Shame there aren't that many games that push WiiU though.


WiiU processors are 14% bigger than GC's yet the launch price was 75% higher. I wouldn't mind Nintendo releasing a budget console if it actually had a budget price.

And the WiiU gamepad is much more expensive than the one on the GC, the WiiU also has internal memory storage (even if it's only 8/32GB), wi-fi...
The die sizes of the CPU and the GPU isn't the only metric regarding cost.

What I was saying is that the WiiU is in terms of "chip sizes" which in part determines "cost of the chips" and money inverted on "power" more comparable to the GC than to the Wii.

If we want to compare with the Wii, it had 36% smaller chips and it was sold at 50% higher prices. And I would doubt that the cost of a Wii-mote is even comparable to that of the WiiU gamepad.

 

[wsippel]

This line of thinking doesnt account for the big delta in the TDP for a 320 alu GPU versus a 160 alu GPU.

For example;
Redwood LE - 320 alus @ 550MHz = 39W
Caicos - 160 alus @ 625MHz = 18W

If you normalize the clocks the difference may end up around 25W, the difference (25W) looks small but in a small box, it's significant.

The GPU is only a small part of Latte. One third of the die is memory, which either consumes the same amount of power as before or more if it was clocked higher as well. Also, we're reportedly looking at a much larger bump (~35% IIRC), which would probably require an increased core voltage as well, leading to a much bigger increase in TDP.

 

[Log4Girlz]

That's plainly false and you know it.
The Wii had a 19 mm^2 CPU and a 79 mm^2 GPU/DSP/ARM/Northbridge die.
The WiiU has a 27,73 mm^2 CPU and a 146,48 mm^2 GPU/DSP/ARM/Northbridge die.
The GC had a 43 mm^2 CPU and a 110 mm^2 GPU/DSP/ARM/Northbridge die.

Huh? I meant conceptually. Its withered technology aimed at providing a different experience. Its the sequel to the Wii.

 

[szaromir]

And the WiiU gamepad is much more expensive than the one on the GC, the WiiU also has internal memory storage (even if it's only 8/32GB), wi-fi...
The die sizes of the CPU and the GPU isn't the only metric regarding cost.

What I was saying is that the WiiU is in terms of "chip sizes" which in part determines "cost of the chips" and money inverted on "power" more comparable to the GC than to the Wii.

If we want to compare with the Wii, it had 36% smaller chips and it was sold at 50% higher prices. And I would doubt that the cost of a Wii-mote is even comparable to that of the WiiU gamepad.

Most of the extra stuff is dirt cheap to include. The screen in the WiiU controller also looks super cheap. Disassembled WiiU doesn't look complex at all, I would be flabbergasted if Nintendo barely breaks even at the current asking price.

 

[freezamite]

Huh? I meant conceptually. Its withered technology aimed at providing a different experience. Its the sequel to the Wii.

Those numbers demonstrate that in terms of chip cost, it's above GC levels.
The Wii was much cheaper and it had nearly the same exact chips, while the WiiU has 2012 GPU architecture which again puts it at the level of what the GC was at 2002 and not what the Wii was on 2006.

That's of course if the Latte isn't fabricated at 90nm like I'm starting to suspect if those numbers are true...

Most of the extra stuff is dirt cheap to include. The screen in the WiiU controller also looks super cheap. Disassembled WiiU doesn't look complex at all, I would be flabbergasted if Nintendo barely breaks even at the current asking price.

The WiiU controller has much more than the screen, like the most advanced accelerometers, the camera, it's own chip to deal with the image compression algorithm...

 

[Tempy]

give me zombiu 2 and I shall forgive them.

Unless Nintendo provides some additional co-financing, I'm not sure it's something Ubisoft wants to invest in unfortunately. Not until the install base increases dramatically.

Nintendo releases some quality software for the WiiU, and stuff like Miiverse is great and all, but the lack of more third party software is not really something to be content with - late 7th-generation ports aren't gonna cut it, even if they do end up looking better.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Those numbers demonstrate that in terms of chip cost, it's above GC levels.
The Wii was much cheaper and it had nearly the same exact chips, while the WiiU has 2012 GPU architecture which again puts it at the level of what the GC was at 2002 and not what the Wii was on 2006.

That's of course if the Latte isn't fabricated at 90nm like I'm starting to suspect if those numbers are true...

The Wii U is withered tech much closer to the 7th gen than the 8th gen. It is again a generation behind...like the Wii. That's the only point I tried to make. I don't see why you are going into such specifics.

 

[Nikodemos]

It's actually more like 32-33 watts while playing games. And that's not too impressive from an efficiency perspective versus, say, Apple's A7 SoC. The iPad Air draws a mere 5 watts while playing Infinity Blade 3, and A7 is approaching the power of PS360 in many ways (its GPU is around 115 GFLOPS).

You're quoting total system power consumption, I'm talking about GPU power consumption. The A7 is still a more primitive design than Latte regarding featureset (though the CPU part is probably above Espresso; a compromise caused by Nintendo's rigid adherence to backwards compatibility), and yes, that extra ~55% power in the Latte does make enough of difference for Nintendo to have gone with standalone parts rather than mobile (the A7 is nowhere near "approaching the power of PS360 in many ways" except maybe in Apple's PR brochures; it'll take its successor for that to become closer to the truth). At any rate, the A7 (or an equivalent) is considerably over what budget Nintendo was ever willing to spend.

To quote myself:

I also suspect that Nintendo wanted to make a true Game Pad (a gaming tablet with proper controls), but the tech wasn't (and still isn't) there (and not at the pricepoint they desire, anyway). So the next best thing (in their opinion) was to make a pseudo-tablet tightly linked to a small, unobtrusive box that can be discreetly tucked away in a corner. In order to better prepare themselves for the fully-portable challenge, they went for as low-powered hardware as they could fit within their design and creative roadmap.

In many ways the Wii U is a mid-way design, neither horse nor donkey.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

I don't get it. If they hadn't upgraded the Wii at all, you wouldn't be wowed by those trailers. Specs are obviously important, just look at the feverish excitement in this recent Shin'en thread for an example. Even 3DS gamers got excited when they saw 'Ironfall'. People do care about this stuff.

What's the surprise here? We've seen this time and time again. "Who cares about graphics, etc etc". Yet when we saw that zelda tech demo, people went fucking nuts about how good it looked.
Everytime we get a technical thread, people start dumping gifs of a few games saying "look how good it looks".

 

[freezamite]

The Wii U is withered tech much closer to the 7th gen than the 8th gen. It is again a generation behind...like the Wii. That's the only point I tried to make. I don't see why you are going into such specifics.

No, the Wii was a generation (of consoles) behind in terms of both power and architecture. The WiiU may be a generation behind in terms of raw power, but it has a much newer hardware architecture.
Furthermore, the chips are big enough to even surpass the ones found on the GC in terms of die size, and that's all that matters when it comes to this comparison.

The fact that the other vendors have opted for bigger consoles and more expensive technology doesn't negate the fact that Nintendo has a technologically comparable console to what the GC was on 2002, maybe not in comparison with its competitors (it has launched 1 year before this time) but in relative terms of time/tech/power.

What's the surprise here? We've seen this time and time again. "Who cares about graphics, etc etc". Yet when we saw that zelda tech demo, people went fucking nuts about how good it looked.
Everytime we get a technical thread, people start dumping gifs of a few games saying "look how good it looks".

No, this is not how it is. What a lot of people say is that "as long the game is good enough, technology doesn't care" which doesn't contradict the fact that one can be "wowed" by a game with great graphics and technology.
The problem here is more you. Since for you tech is first, second and third, you can't comprehend how someone can appreciate a game or even a system that's not at the edge technologically speaking, and at the same time appreciate a good graphical showcase.
There exist people that played games back when they were a "nerd thing" and that appreciate things like the playability and such, you know?

 

[Log4Girlz]

No, the Wii was a generation (of consoles) behind in terms of both power and architecture. The WiiU may be a generation behind in terms of raw power, but it has a much newer hardware architecture.
Furthermore, the chips are big enough to even surpass the ones found on the GC in terms of die size, and that's all that matters when it comes to this comparison.

The fact that the other vendors have opted for bigger consoles and more expensive technology doesn't negate the fact that Nintendo has a technologically comparable console to what the GC was on 2002, maybe not in comparison with its competitors (it has launched 1 year before this time) but in relative terms of time/tech/power.

The Wii U is not comparable to the GC from its era. Perhaps if it was released in 2010. Graphics tech is all very similar fundamentally and has been for a long time. Unless you go for some cell-phone tech, anything else is going to look fundamentally the same.

The Wii U is a generation behind. Just like the Wii.

 

[Azure J]

Nice to see something resembling a final spec list but daaaaaaamn, what a nerf. :/

 

[Nikodemos]

The Wii U is a generation behind. Just like the Wii.

Nintendo have undertaken a conscious effort to decouple themselves from the regular rhythm of technological advancement. Therefore, my view is that while the U is indeed a somewhat retrograde console, it is a massive leap forward for Nintendo, compared to the Wii (which was basically an overclocked, improved GameCube).

 

[LukasTaves]

Damn. I assume the y axis is arbitrary units just for comparison?

The y axis is normalized to Wiiu's numbers for each metric (that's why wiiu is all 1's), and for the rest it shows how each metric compares to the wiiu equivalent.

Edit: What this means, is that different columns are not directly comparable.

 

[something fishy]

Unless Nintendo provides some additional co-financing, I'm not sure it's something Ubisoft wants to invest in unfortunately. Not until the install base increases dramatically.

Nintendo releases some quality software for the WiiU, and stuff like Miiverse is great and all, but the lack of more third party software is not really something to be content with - late 7th-generation ports aren't gonna cut it, even if they do end up looking better.

Such a shame. That's was a real gem for me.

 

[entremet]

Man, Iwata. This guy has to go.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

No, this is not how it is. What a lot of people say is that "as long the game is good enough, technology doesn't care" which doesn't contradict the fact that one can be "wowed" by a game with great graphics and technology.
The problem here is more you. Since for you tech is first, second and third, you can't comprehend how someone can appreciate a game or even a system that's not at the edge technologically speaking, and at the same time appreciate a good graphical showcase.
There exist people that played games back when they were a "nerd thing" and that appreciate things like the playability and such, you know?

God, I love posts like these.
Yeah, I'm totally tech first, second and third. That's why I've been spending more time with indie games in the past years (which aren't exactly known for their graphical traits).
And wow, you started playing games back in the NES/SMS/GB/i386 era too? Me too! Seriously, get off your high horse and don't make stupid posts without knowing other people.
Games on the WiiU can look good and do look good, that doesn't stop the double standards some folks have. Technology is what enables these games to continuously improve, both from a visual and gameplay perspective.
So no, when Nintendo shows nothing more than a tech demo of zelda (which hardly has any gameplay) and the thread explodes with comments "IT LOOKS SO GOOD, GIVE IT TO ME", it doesn't show that people are saying "as long the game is good enough, technology doesn't care". It shows that graphics do matter, and that's up to you and everyone else to decide how much they do matter.

 

[ec0ec0]

It makes Nintendo sense.

i like this.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

Wondering why leak this info now? Only conclusion is, thirdparty support is about to dry up completely. Especially if WiiU sales don't impress this holiday season. COD: Ghost is probably is the last one on WiiU. I think most pubs are going to pull an EA. WiiU just may be my last Nintendo console and our history goes back to the NES.

 

[QaaQer]

It's new news confirming the long debated GPU specs. And the evidence was shared with one of the mods before making this thread.

thank god that other thread can RIP.

 

[lyrick]

Doesn't this just confirm what most have already concluded. It's basically current gen+ in terms of performance.

These flops aren't really the same as the Xbox 360's flops.

Although, by the same token, the flops of the XB1 and PS4 are also not directly comparable to the Wii U's, I believe.

Flops always imply Maximum Theoretical Floating Point Operations per second regardless of hardware used. Even when you're comparing CPUs form 1988 to GPUs from 2020. The real problem with using Flops is that they don't really mean anything outside of their literal definition.

The calculation to derive the maximum theoretical floating point operation per second is the same across all 3 gen 8 platforms since they can all do two floating point operations (Multiplication and Add) per cycle. I'm unsure if the 2005 and 2006 Consoles feature the same ALU's so their calculations may be a little different.

Many Nvidia GPUs from the 2000s didn't have ALUs capable performing of the hardware of this particular floating point MUL-ADD instruction in one cycle so their Theretical Flops were always much lower than the ATI/AMD equivalent, even though they were producing the same if not better graphical results.

Long story short, Flops don't really mean anything aside from a theoretical computational maximum of one particular operation that the hardware will never actually perform to. Using it as a metric for graphical capabilities only shows how much people don't know about the hardware.

 

[witness]

All the money Nintendo has and they just go the cheap route when it was time for them to change philosophies as they saw the Wii fade away and consumer interest move on. Their own hubris got in the way, thinking we can do the same thing as last time and spend nothing on hardware and sell another 100 million consoles.

Whatever the next console is, which will be sooner than later, will be very interesting.

 

[Baron_Calamity]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does any of this matter? If the WiiU was in a bigger case, with more power, and called something other than the WiiU, it would still be significantly less powerful than XB1 or PS4.

I think the trade off was just fine. The games that are coming to the platform are the same that were always going to come to the platform.

 

[FourMyle]

Cheer up

Wow it's like I'm back in 2005. Nintendo finally discovered bloom? That's disgusting.

 

[Hakai]

Wow it's like I'm back in 2005. Nintendo finally discovered bloom? That's disgusting.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

 

[lwilliams3]

The GPU is only a small part of Latte. One third of the die is memory, which either consumes the same amount of power as before or more if it was clocked higher as well. Also, we're reportedly looking at a much larger bump (~35% IIRC), which would probably require an increased core voltage as well, leading to a much bigger increase in TDP.

Good points. What we may be seeing was not an actual downgrade from what Nintendo's target was, but a shock on how low the actual specs the GPU to get to the performance they desired. Nintendo definitely prioritize actual performance from removing bottlenecks and improving efficiency over boosting specs.

 

[Captainsweatpants]

Jesus Christ Nintendo! I paid for that ZELDA Demo. They are literally pulling a Sony. Just kill that console off, make a better system and give that system for all Wii U owners before the adoption rate is too high. I never thought I would say this but Iwata needs to go.

 

[Kenka]

Those "metrics" are the basic building blocks of the GPU, completely relevant. I dont know what that has got to do with your application.

1) it was a serious question, I really wanted to be educated about what a texel rate is. Of course I presume it is a critical measurement unit, I just don't know what it indicates about the GPU itself.
2) which bring me to the next point: I don't want to work for dudes who mess up their primary multi-billion business ignominiously badly.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

Something's off about the lighting to be fair. It's overly present near its source and in the main time reflexions on other surfaces are messed up. On the second pic, the wall below doesn't get illuminated by the explosion at all for example.

For players used to the latest games on the HD bros, it sticks out like a sore thumb I presume.

 

[KingSnake]

Jesus Christ Nintendo! I paid for that ZELDA Demo. They are literally pulling a Sony. Just kill that console off, make a better system and give that system for all Wii U owners before the adoption rate is too high. I never thought I would say this but Iwata needs to go.

You paid for a demo? Nice story.

And what happened? Did someone took away your demo or you're basing your rage on some speculation from a user on a forum?

Edit: I'm talking about the speculation that Wii U in the current configuration can't run the Zelda demo, not bgassassins info and/or rummor.

 

[Kenka]

You paid for a demo? Nice story.

And what happened? Did someone took away your demo or you're basing your rage on some speculation from a user on a forum?

bishoptl, please.

 

[bgassassin]

If that rumour is true, then that's just utter, utter craphouse. BG, do you know if the hardware was actually changed (as in shader counts or something), or was it just something like the clocks were downgraded from the original level (i.e 700GHZ GPU or something)?

I can believe the new information though. After seeing this thread, I fired up WindWaker HD again, and it looks about 1/2 as good as it did yesterday - suck.


I guess we all need to buy Fourth Storm a beer or something now. How depressing, 1/10th the power of the PS4 <shakes head>

how much of a downgrade are we talking here, was it going to be 320/16/16, or just like a 100MHz higher clock?

I doubt the downgrade rumors, by the way. They removed transistors because the system was overheating? Makes no sense considering they've apparently upped the clocks as well. The clock increase would produce much more additional heat than the lower transistor count could compensate for, so the revised design would run hotter overall.

Just hitting these all at once, but the earliest rumors did suggest a GPU with 640 ALUs.

EDIT: Seems weird that some out there think I had some sort of hidden agenda making this thread.

 

[wsippel]

Just hitting these all at once, but the earliest rumors did suggest a GPU with 640 ALUs.

I know. But almost every detail from that particular early rumor turned out to be wrong, and the few things that turned out to be correct were things already mentioned in earlier rumors. So the 640 ALU rumor was probably bullshit all along.

 

[twobear]

There is precious "new" avenues to stroll down. See, if they had played their cards right, they could be providing a system that didn't break the bank, still offered good specs and have not only third party titles galore, but then Nintendo games as icing on the cake. Who wouldn't buy that kind of console?

Quite a few people, as it turned out.

I really don't understand why people keep saying this. Nintendo are in the situation they are in now because the path that everyone keeps saying they should follow didn't work when they tried.

 

[Effect]

Why the heck would Nintendo pick a small case over a better running console? That makes no sense.

To make it more appealing to Japan where space is extremely important I believe. It comes down to who they primarily design their hardware and games for. Japan has always been at the top of that list while everyone else is a distant second. Something you have to just accept in order to be a Nintendo fan and not go insane. That's why Street Pass was developed for the 3DS. It only achieves what they intended in Japan and really no where else. They had to come up the relay points in America and only after some of the higher ups had seen first hand that they weren't getting any street passes when they traveled here.

That Nintendo would pick the case first and then make everything else fit doesn't surprise me. Neither does trying to keep the power draw low. Which I believe is also suppose to be important in Japan due to electricity rates. What is crazy is that Japan, at least for their home console, isn't there biggest market. Why they keep designing the hardware with it first in mind (GameCube, Wii, and Wii U) for it is something I don't understand on purely numbers issue. With the 3DS I get it. Hand helds are king there. No expects a home electronic device to be tiny unless it's something for the kitchen or bathroom I believe. It can stand to be several inches bigger in either direction. It's going to be on a shelf or table and not be moved much once placed.

Even with Nintendo's efficiency I guess it shouldn't be surprised if things were downgraded. It's annoying and frustrating that it was though since this did not have to happen if they thought more globally. I'm all for weirdness with games and even controllers. I just want them to stop screwing around with the hardware when it's not needed. Smaller is not always better when it comes to tech.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Why the heck would Nintendo pick a small case over a better running console? That makes no sense.

Why the heck would a company pick a 'bigger' case over a better running console?

 

[KingSnake]

Just hitting these all at once, but the earliest rumors did suggest a GPU with 640 ALUs..

How early were those rumors? How far away from the launch could they have decided to change the GPU completely?

 

[FourMyle]

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

If that laughably overdone bloom effect is beauty to you then you need to see an ophthalmologist asap!

 

[bgassassin]

I know. But almost every detail from that particular early rumor turned out to be wrong, and the few things that turned out to be correct were things already mentioned in earlier rumors. So the 640 ALU rumor was probably bullshit all along.

Maybe, maybe not. There was definitely a consistency with it.

How early were those rumors? How far away from the launch could they have decided to change the GPU completely?

Back when it was still known as Project Cafe and not too long after the official naming.

 

[Nikodemos]

I really don't understand why people keep saying this. Nintendo are in the situation they are in now because the path that everyone keeps saying they should follow didn't work when they tried.

Actually, they didn't really try. Ever since the N64, their systems had some sort of unique 'feature' (or set of) that deprecated them in the eyes of the average user.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Wow, the Wii U is kinda sad.

Lol at

Also, the Wii U can't handle the Zelda tech demo shown at E3 2011 anymore...

 

[QaaQer]

If you want the kind of software that will end up on PS4/Xbone/PC, banking on a Nintendo system is just foolish.

It's a shame because if Ninty cannot change that perception their hardware is going to whither. Today people expect a lot of functionality out of their computing devices.

 

[Kenka]

Actually, they didn't really try. Ever since the N64, their systems had some sort of unique 'feature' (or set of) that deprecated them in the eyes of the average user.

1) Gamecube : handle
2) Wii : not larger than three DVD boxes
3) WiiU : gamepad

Yup.

 

[mantidor]

If Nintendo did indeed lower hardware specs simply to meet case size requirements I do think they probably made the wrong move, simply because case size doesn't appear to be working towards any significant advantage, and doesn't overcome other issues with the platform.

Well, case size and noise matter in Japan, this isn't new. Nintendo has a considerable portion of its market with moms who buy the console for their kids, size becomes a factor then. It's not really so much an advantage as it is keeping their current costumer base.

And, even if this downgrade is true in no way were the specs close to x1/ps4 anyway, the change is most likely negligible from that point of view to be honest.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Dat balance

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

Maybe, maybe not. There was definitely a consistency with it.



Back when it was still known as Project Cafe and not too long after the official naming.

Any info on eDRAM bandwidth?

 

[axisofweevils]

I believe that the Zelda tech demo can still run on the Wii U for one reason. They showed the footage again in a Nintendo Direct after the console released.

Nintendo do have a unique vision at odds with most of the industry, but the one thing they don't do is exaggerate what their systems are capable of.

 

[Kenka]

Dat balance

Just asking : you guys know what's going on in this chart, right ?