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[ypo]

Damn those are some huge downgrades. But Turn 10 is being Turn 10. It's not a Turn 10 game launch without them being deceptive. The game was probably shown running on a PC all along.

almost a generational difference:

edit: Wow, hahah the other thread got locked because you aren't supposed to tell the incredibly obvious difference from youtube videos. Good lord. How lame.

 

[Jburton]

the most important part of the graphics is the resolution and the framerate. this is a racing game. so help me understand you here, you pass framerate and resolution not as graphics related, but as ...gameplay or ...phsyics?

for this generation, I am willing to bet that there is no better than what forza achieves day 1 in these fundamentals.
and DF article is a testament to that, not to downgrade bullshit.
unless somebody believes that there is a chance for >1080p@60hz, or 1080p@>60hz, which is kind of laughable.

also, people have noticed grahical upgrades too. they even made gifs about them!
yet they where called out as <<cherry pickers>>

one might think that a quality game gets its loads balanced at the end of development, so as to make sure that its primary goal, the 1080/60 is always kept intact.

but no, as I read here, the <<upgrades where unifinished placeholders>>, <<buildings where placed to hide popup>>, and the other bullshit I have read in forza topics today...

its all about them downgrades...
so please continue, just -as i wrote above- let me know when/if another racer -let alone a simracer- reaches 1080p/60 locked and has better shadows in the windows of the second floor of a building, or if it has more than 400.000 spectators lying around the track, that have better detail than forza's 400.000

People are pointing out the downgrades because as it was running at 1080p@60fps at E3 nothing has changed in that instance but other things have ........ simple as that.

The greater conversation about the game was never part of this thread until you made it so, we are talking about discrepancies in lighting, shadowing, AA etc.

Gameplay conversations would be in a different thread, one not about graphics.

And yes I will let you know.

 

[RyudBoy]

Just finished watching the Gamespot review. Game is fucking gorgeous even with the downgrades.

 

[Zeth]

Any downgrades visible in something other than youtube screens? The game looks damn amazing in my opinion, I guess I'm not seeing it. Must be something in the air this week.

 

[golem]

Man those 2D crowds just look BAD.

The framerate definitely puts all those games that claim to be 60 to shame though.

 

[p3tran]

People are pointing out the downgrades because as it was running at 1080p@60fps at E3 nothing has changed in that instance but other things have ........ simple as that.

The greater conversation about the game was never part of this thread until you made it so, we are talking about discrepancies in lighting, shadowing, AA etc.

Gameplay conversations would be in a different thread, one not about graphics.

And yes I will let you know.

my last comment on this:

this entire conversation about downgrades, is based 100% on the jpegs posted right above, the compressed youtube image from fallon, and the even more compressed youtube image with the guy wearing the headphones...
just looking at the cars in the two pics, the difference in compression is pretty obvious..

so, did you downgrade guys even bother to download the DF videos?
its the fuckin' DF thread after all..
or you are going strictly from the above -and irrelevant- pics?

I mean, here's a gif that shows the "downgraded" building:

yes, its from one of the df videos...
and it was already posted.. you still think the that building in the left side is worth this downgrade talk you are hosting? "prague has become cardboard city" wasnt it?
and some of you dont like the title of "warriors"?
hehe, ok..

 

[hipbabboom]

BTW, note the YouTube Video is only available up to 720p. This has been emblematic of the issue I've seen with many Xbox One game videos on Youtube over the past couple of months since this whole resolutiongate thing blew up that's lead many people to think that Xbox One can only do 720p. Not sure the reason for the phenomenon but its creates an embarrassing situation for MS and its made even worse that they have this on their own uploaded videos.

 

[Hockeymac18]

Damn those are some huge downgrades. But Turn 10 is being Turn 10. It's not a Turn 10 game launch without them being deceptive. The game was probably shown running on a PC all along.

almost a generational difference:

edit: Wow, hahah the other thread got locked because you aren't supposed to tell the incredibly obvious difference from youtube videos. Good lord. How lame.

I think this response is also relevant: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90620431&postcount=828

Since it's on-topic for this thread as well, I thought I'd share a post from another thread I made looking at some of the comparisons. For reference, the release version is on the left, the original reveal footage is on the right in each pair.

______________________________

I wanted to take a look at some of these comparisons.


In addition to much sharper detail, we see more geometry in the scenery, more detailed trackside textures, better lighting and a more pronounced dynamic range. Here's another simple one:



The amount of both geometry and texture detail in the release version is dramatically improved. I prefer the warmer lighting and the dynamic range we see, though those are stylistic changes.


This one's a dramatic upgrade, with more detail on basically everything in the scene with regard to textures, geometry, lighting and the addition of meaningful amounts of new track-side detail. Look at the trolley lines overhead.

I see changes, but I don't understand the claims that these are flat-out downgrades in any way.

_____________________________________

For the sake of ease:

 

[Damaniel]

my last comment on this:

this entire conversation about downgrades, is based 100% on the jpegs posted right above, the compressed youtube image from fallon, and the even more compressed youtube image with the guy wearing the headphones...
just looking at the cars in the two pics, the difference in compression is pretty obvious..

so, did you downgrade guys even bother to download the DF videos?
its the fuckin' DF thread after all..
or you are going strictly from the above -and irrelevant- pics?

I mean, here's a gif that shows the "downgraded" building:

yes, its from one of the df videos...
and it was already posted.. you still think the that building in the left side is worth this downgrade talk you are hosting? "prague has become cardboard city" wasnt it?
and some of you dont like the title of "warriors"?
hehe, ok..

Isn't that replay footage? It only runs at 1080p/30.

 

[Jburton]

my last comment on this:

this entire conversation about downgrades, is based 100% on the jpegs posted right above, the compressed youtube image from fallon, and the even more compressed youtube image with the guy wearing the headphones...
just looking at the cars in the two pics, the difference in compression is pretty obvious..

so, did you downgrade guys even bother to download the DF videos?
its the fuckin' DF thread after all..
or you are going strictly from the above -and irrelevant- pics?

I mean, here's a gif that shows the "downgraded" building.



yes, its from one of the df videos...
and it was already posted.. you still think the that building in the left side is worth this downgrade talk you are hosting? "prague has become cardboard city" wasnt it?
and some of you dont like the title of "warriors"?
hehe, ok..


* not sure why my quote failed.






This is a conversation about graphics, if that upsets you then this thread might not be for you ......... especially when you start relating to labels.

I hope and I am sure Forza plays brilliantly and you guys will have a brilliant time with it, this conversation has no bearing on that at all.

I have seen the DF videos (the download version) looks nice and at a great frame rate.

Still looks inferior to the version MS sold to people at E3 and in this thread many have discussed this fact, in an appropriate thread and in an appropriate manner.

No labels, no insults and no immaturity .......... the things being discussed in this thread are no different than threads about games last gen (including the GT5 vs Forza thread).


Your intent on shaming people having a discussion about graphics in a thread about graphics will not work.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

Played it at the ms store. It has horrible aliasing on the cars. Sit further back, way back...

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

my god what is happening in here.

I hope no cool chicks are watching us.

man, Idk why this made me laugh so hard.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

i think this game looks good? downgrade or whatever, graphics look fairly nice.

 

[op_ivy]

This is a conversation about graphics, if that upsets you then this thread might not be for you ......... especially when you start relating to labels.

I hope and I am sure Forza plays brilliantly and you guys will have a brilliant time with it, this conversation has no bearing on that at all.

I have seen the DF videos (the download version) looks nice and at a great frame rate.

Still looks inferior to the version MS sold to people at E3 and in this thread many have discussed this fact, in an appropriate thread and in an appropriate manner.

No labels, no insults and no immaturity .......... the things being discussed in this thread are no different than threads about games last gen (including the GT5 vs Forza thread).


Your intent on shaming people having a discussion about graphics in a thread about graphics will not work.

it looks better in some ways, worse in others. as seen above, the lighting looks far more natural and in many ways there is considerably more detail then there was at e3. in other spots there seems to be less detail. the only real downgrade appears to be the 3d to 2d spectators, which while HUGE and disappointing, really wont be noticeable when playing. i challenge anyone to say that while in motion, speeding along, the overall net effect is that it doesnt look better then it did at e3.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I think this response is also relevant: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90620431&postcount=828

Well, two different sources.
Reveal footage didn't look that good, but the footage from the Jimmy Fallon Show looks much better than the final game.

 

[p3tran]

I have seen the DF videos (the download version) looks nice and at a great frame rate.

Still looks inferior to the version MS sold to people at E3 and in this thread many have discussed this fact, in an appropriate thread and in an appropriate manner.

yes, i can really see it, right here:

VERY inferior.

please go on..

(lucky you didnt buy what ms sold you at e3. pheeww)

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Wow, that before v after comparison shot is quite telling.
Def. a downgrade.

 

[Jburton]

yes, i can really see it, right here:

VERY inferior.

please go on..

(lucky you didnt buy what ms sold you at e3. pheeww)

I have not trolled this thread, I have responded when quoted yet you still hit me with some console warrior label (ironic).

I have stated I have no intention of buying an Xbox One at this time but neither have I went into threads and trolled them either ......... nor does it disqualify me from having an opinion on issues such as this.

I am not the only person with this opinion and have been polite enough to respond to you, even after your attempts of labelling me.


You have your opinion and I have mine, and others have theirs and we discuss in this, a forum ........yet you are attacking people for it.

 

[Chobel]

I know a little about 3D programming so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't making a better looking buildings not taxing at all? After all the buildings are just static objects with static lighting. So making a better looking buildings shouldn't make performance hit.

 

[nib95]

yes, i can really see it, right here:

VERY inferior.

please go on..

(lucky you didnt buy what ms sold you at e3. pheeww)

Cherry picking specific segments aside, overall do you honestly believe it hasn't been downgraded? Imo the overall downgrade is quite significant. IQ, AA, overall lighting, AO, certain textures, certain geometry, foliage and trees, certain shadows, overall dynamic range etc. Comparing them side by side, it now looks like a very different game, and not in a good way. But whatever, water under the bridge now. Sort of.

 

[Reg]

I know a little about 3D programming so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't making a better looking buildings not taxing at all? After all the buildings are just static objects with static lighting. So making a better looking buildings shouldn't make performance hit.

Triangle counts, texture resolutions, and draw counts for a model can effect performance.

 

[Metalmurphy]

I know a little about 3D programming so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't making a better looking buildings not taxing at all? After all the buildings are just static objects with static lighting. So making a better looking buildings shouldn't make performance hit.

You are some what correct in the sense that some people here are trying to pass off the changes in geometry to be more of an upgraded over changes that are really more taxing on the hardware like IQ, shadowing, lighting, ao, 3d crowds, etc. But let's not ruin their fun with that.

A scenery with more polygonal detail will be more taxing on the hardware, static or not.

 

[moondoggerr]

i think this game looks good? downgrade or whatever, graphics look fairly nice.

The game looks good because it is good. Things need to be judged in a gestalt. How the game looks when it is running on your tv as opposed to six square inches of a frame blown up to the size of an aircraft carrier. This is a beautiful game. I'm sure it has some flaws, but its beautiful.

 

[djblackice]

I have not trolled this thread, I have responded when quoted yet you still hit me with some console warrior label (ironic).

I have stated I have no intention of buying an Xbox One at this time but neither have I went into threads and trolled them either ......... nor does it disqualify me from having an opinion on issues such as this.

I am not the only person with this opinion and have been polite enough to respond to you, even after your attempts of labelling me.


You have your opinion and I have mine, and others have theirs and we discuss in this, a forum ........yet you are attacking people for it.

It's ironic, his posts have more a "Warrior" tone than others and yet he is the one throwing out the insults. Poor guy.

 

[p3tran]

Cherry picking specific segments aside, overall do you honestly believe it hasn't been downgraded? Imo the overall downgrade is quite significant. IQ, AA, overall lighting, AO, certain textures, certain geometry, foliage and trees, certain shadows, overall dynamic range etc. Comparing them side by side, it now looks like a very different game, and not in a good way. But whatever, water under the bridge now. Sort of.

ok, I'll play..

please provide the video, compared to which the DF gameplay video is a downgrade.

let me help you:
there is no popup anymore, or at least I failed to notice even one instance (you DO remember the trees poping-in in older footage, right?), the draw distance is incredible, new scenery has been added, obviously the lighting is changed and overall improved, but this change makes for example the house you brought up (cherry picked) look less nice than before, while other houses and scenery look much better with this change.
also opponent car level of detail is improved, as I saw no aggressive loss of detail, specifically when i observed a silver nissan gtr for quite some time, coming close and then far away in that gameplay video.
also the mirrors are greatly improved, both in detail, draw distance and framerate.
and these things, you have judged in the past too.

the above are some of things you based your past critique.. now they are fixed, yet you only talk about ..downgrade searching the scenery housing one by one,
while IMPORTANT things where upgraded and you had noticed before, you forgot.

so please give me the gameplay video that is "a very different game, and not in a good way", to quote you,
and I will be happy to point to you what I might find as upgrades, and not downgrades, even if you dont remember right now...

 

[Neutralfanboy]

All your comparisons so far involve things that look like obvious placeholders and unfinished bits of the tracks. They're almost completely different building, not improved version of the same ones.

Now, if you look at this:

vs

the differences in terms of IQ (especially aliasing), DOF, lighting, and things like tress or crowd is massive. The final footage is nowhere near the original reveal.

The bottom picture looks better....you're focusing on the aliasing on the sidewall tires but literally everything else looks much better on the bottom pic (edit:besides the fans). Just look at the buildings.

 

[Jac_Solar]

It's a bit disingenuous to sell us so many previews that looked significantly better, only to receive a massive downgrade afterward for launch.

A bit disingenuous?

The closed thread also had direct-feed grabs from DF's footage and was still closed.

Do you know why it was closed? Why would a thread about the speculation on the quality of a game be closed on a privately owned forum?

 

[RayMaker]

downloading the DF footage is quite the eye opener, it made me realize how gorgeous this game is.

Even though I jumped the gun and overacted a bit, there are differences I notice,

which are

• More trees in E3 BUILD
• More crowds in the E3 build
• 3D crowds in E3 build
• All the colors seem more vibrant in the E3 BUILD
• The trees seem more lush in the E3 BUILD

but as some people have said the crappy quality of the E3 footage may give off the illusion of some of these better visual features and mask other problems with the E3 build.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

From release-version footage from DF posted by TeamVVV (found by derFeef)

The close-ups on the environment in replays look awesome

This actually has one of the buildings that was downgraded in the background.

Pretty deliberate camerawork too

Close-up on the tyre (and a bonus backfire)

yes, i can really see it, right here:

VERY inferior.

please go on..

(lucky you didnt buy what ms sold you at e3. pheeww)

Looks amazing. I can't wait for my X1.

 

[Zen]

yes, i can really see it, right here:

VERY inferior.

please go on..

(lucky you didnt buy what ms sold you at e3. pheeww)

I don't think anyone is surprised that placeholder geometry was replaced since the original reveal. Not sure what you're getting at. Geometry has both been improved on placeholders and pushed back on other elements indicating an overall reduction.

The bottom picture looks better....you're focusing on the aliasing on the sidewall tires but literally everything else looks much better on the bottom pic (edit:besides the fans). Just look at the buildings.

Not true:
Trees removed
Shadowing removed
3D crowds replaced with 2D bitmaps
Volumetrics (potentially) removed

 

[Gestault]

I don't think anyone is surprised that placeholder geometry was replaced since the original reveal. Not sure what you're getting at.

Do you see any differences in the lighting? Also, saying it was a placeholder doesn't mean that it isn't an improvement, unless at the time of the gameplay reveal, people commented on the low quality of placeholders.

Trees removed
Shadowing removed
3D crowds replaced with 2D bitmaps
Volumetrics (potentially) removed

I'm also convinced now that you either have the images confused in your head or you simply aren't referring to the image in front of you if you're saying crowds and shadows were removed in this image, when the opposite is true. Also, what do you mean by "volumetrics" in this image?

 

[ss_lemonade]

Haven't seen the videos yet since I'm on my phone but those gif images show the final gameplay visuals looking better to me.

I wouldn't be surprised though if there were downgrades. I remember the original Forza 1 (lol I know its old) looking worse than its demo that came with an oxm magazine we bought.

 

[Pseudo judo]

Well, two different sources.
Reveal footage didn't look that good, but the footage from the Jimmy Fallon Show looks much better than the final game.

Which is why he referenced the Falon footage in his post. The point is to have a balanced discussion on the subject.

 

[LukasTaves]

I don't think anyone is surprised that placeholder geometry was replaced since the original reveal. Not sure what you're getting at.




Not true:
Trees removed
Shadowing removed
3D crowds replaced with 2D bitmaps
Volumetrics (potentially) removed

The sun position is different. Look at how the statue is lighten.

Some other shots from DF video shows the same type of projected shadows from buildings, so they definitely didn't outright removed it from the release version either.

2D crowds are a bummer XD

 

[Zen]

The sun position is different. Look at how the statue is lighten.

Some other shots from DF video shows the same type of projected shadows from buildings, so they definitely didn't outright removed it from the release version either.

2D crowds are a bummer XD

But you can literally see areas that have the same shadow cast in the exact same spot where there is now no projected shadows from the buildings at all. You might be right but it sure doesn't look like the tree and buildings are casting shadows anymore (to me).

It still looks GOOD, I'm not arguing that.

 

[NTIETS13A_Superiority]

Best thing Forza5 had going-on for it was its image quality. Has taken noticeable dive but was alredy recogniced some time ago. Some times old lighting looks better sometimes new. I like that new does not crush blacks like old did. Some enviroments look way different. FR optimisation I guess. Some clear placeholders replaced. 2D crowd is lol worthy if ture (going with this pages pics so idk). 1080p/60fps really came with price.

 

[Phat Michael]

It's pretty funny people complaining about lack of trees or shadows or whatever.

I played this game for 2 hours last night and it looks incredible. Not just the graphics or how smooth it is, but the general presentation with the videos and commentary by Jeremy Clarkson.

To the people spending hours complaining about small graphical problems - actually play the game. I played last night on a 64" Plasma and it looks insane. The lighting, the cars, the movement, the rumble on the triggers - everything is just so much fun.

Instead of dissecting every little problem - just wait a couple of days and play the damn game. It is so much more fun than bickering over tiny little problems which really dont affect you when you are racing a McLaren P1 at full speed.

 

[Metalmurphy]

It's pretty funny people complaining about lack of trees or shadows or whatever.

I played this game for 2 hours last night and it looks incredible. Not just the graphics or how smooth it is, but the general presentation with the videos and commentary by Jeremy Clarkson.

To the people spending hours complaining about small graphical problems - actually play the game. I played last night on a 64" Plasma and it looks insane. The lighting, the cars, the movement, the rumble on the triggers - everything is just so much fun.

Instead of dissecting every little problem - just wait a couple of days and play the damn game. It is so much more fun than bickering over tiny little problems which really dont affect you when you are racing a McLaren P1 at full speed.

No one, or almost no one anyway, is passing judgment on the game as a whole. This isn't a review thread, it's a DF thread.

 

[eso76]

The downgrade is rather obvious in places, but you should also consider that between Jimmy Fallon version and release there were 2 significant upgrades that are not immediately visibe in pics:

Fallon version had 1 car and old FM4 physics.
Release has 16 cars and the new physics engine.

Other than that, shadows were VERY pixelated in the old Prague demo (so pixelated in fact, i was sure lighting was dynamic) and water shader looks much better now.

Strange to see AO taking a hit; with lighting being prebaked they could have easily baked ambient occlusion on textures, maybe the ran short on ram ?

IQ, well, there's no way the full game could have lived to reveal and E3 trailers, but it's still very very good on my setup.


While the game does look great, it's somewhat disappointing that the rendering engine is still very 'traditional', no exotic feature like dynamic lighting, dynamic skybox, volumetric smoke receiving light and shadows, tessellation etc...between the more advanced rendering solutions and the more powerful hardware, i expect the gap with the next GT to be rather huge this time...

 

[Krilekk]

Damn those are some huge downgrades. But Turn 10 is being Turn 10. It's not a Turn 10 game launch without them being deceptive. The game was probably shown running on a PC all along.

almost a generational difference:

edit: Wow, hahah the other thread got locked because you aren't supposed to tell the incredibly obvious difference from youtube videos. Good lord. How lame.

You think you can tell that a game got downgraded based on the Youtube video of a Twitch stream? Good luck with that.

 

[adelante]

No one, or almost no one anyway, is passing judgment on the game as a whole. This isn't a review thread, it's a DF thread.

I don't think anyone is highlighting noticeable visual upgrades in an attempt to downplay the downgrade issues either, which you seem to imply with your previous post. In a discussion that seems to focus predominantly on cherry-picking graphical details that have been pared back since the game's reveal, it's only relevant to bring improvements to light as well. And buildings swapped with those of increased geometry are exactly that - higher in detail. Which, for comparison's sake, indicates an improvement, whether or not it's taxing to the hardware.

It seems that some people have developed a deterrence towards being on the other side of objectivity that they've become uncomfortable in directly responding to positive observations, without resorting to calling others who are pointing them out as defending the game.

 

[madmackem]

There has without a doubt been a downgrade here, i dont know why people deny it its pretty clear in just the iq. It doesnt stop it being a nice looking launch title but there is without a doubt been some things downgraded in order to keep framerate up with the amount of cars on track they wanted.

 

[ekim]

Did someone official weigh into the discussion already?

 

[Metalmurphy]

I don't think anyone is highlighting noticeable visual upgrades in an attempt to downplay the downgrade issues either, which you seem to imply with your previous post. In a discussion that seems to focus predominantly on cherry-picking graphical details that have been pared back since the game's reveal, it's only relevant to bring improvements to light as well. And buildings swapped with those of increased geometry are exactly that - higher in detail. Which, for comparison's sake, indicates an improvement, whether or not it's taxing to the hardware.

It seems that some people have developed a deterrence towards being on the other side of objectivity that they've become uncomfortable in directly responding to positive observations, without resorting to calling others who are pointing them out as defending the game.

It's pretty clear to me that two things happened in this game.

- Final code optimization mainly in the art/design department leading to improved looks (ie, palceholder buildings being exchanged, moving stuff around, etc)
- Final code optimization due to changes in hardware leading to downgraded technical aspects, the stuff that's actually taxing on the hardware.

People are focusing more on the latter because it's more then just about Forza 5. It's about fake renders, "fake" hardware, thuway/cboat posts, X1 in general.

I think even nib agrees Forza still is a great game despite all that.

 

[adelante]

Did someone official weigh into the discussion already?

Lol you wish. I don't recall Turn10 ever commenting on topics like this.

 

[Green Yoshi]

Wow e3 footage looks much better.

Of course it does, it runs on a highend-pc.

 

[eso76]

It's pretty clear to me that two things happened in this game.

- Final code optimization mainly in the art/design department leading to improved looks (ie, palceholder buildings being exchanged, moving stuff around, etc)
- Final code optimization due to changes in hardware leading to downgraded technical aspects, the stuff that's actually taxing on the hardware.

original Prague demo ran on genuine xbone hardware, there have only been (very slight) upgrades since then, so it's mostly optimization to have the game not drop frames with full grid and new physics.
That or final OS and SDK are chewing up more resources than T10 was expecting.

Reveal and E3 trailers were obviously prerendered in ultra high res and downsampled.

 

[ekim]

Do we know if the Day-1 patch is already out and was applied to the version reviewers played?

 

[Metalmurphy]

original Prague demo ran on genuine xbone hardware, there have only been (very slight) upgrades since then, so it's mostly optimization to have the game not drop frames with full grid and new physics.
That or final OS and SDK are chewing up more resources than T10 was expecting.

Forgive me if I don't actually believe that. The changes we are seeing are more akin of going down a few notches on the GPU card.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

The bottom picture looks better....you're focusing on the aliasing on the sidewall tires but literally everything else looks much better on the bottom pic (edit:besides the fans). Just look at the buildings.

How does the bottom picture look better. Look at all the aliasing on the sidewall, the buildings in the background and the railings of the stands, the crowd is 2d, the mist(?) is missing and the shadows are of a far inferior quality. It looks like the DoF effect is destroying all the detail in the buildings in the top picture which is why the bottom picture looks more detailed/sharper.