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[dragonelite]

You would almost think we are in the Forza vs GT thread...
Shit is intense here.

Its just redistribution of resources. You had low crowd density with the extremely low poly 3D models now you have high density 2D cardboard cut out crowd with Dan's beard in it.

Some building got better textures and higher poly model.
But E3 build has better IQ and i think it would be smarter to remove the cables
because the cables are mostly lost either in compression or because they become subpixel and don't get proper anti aliased. I believe one of the need for speed games had an proper solution for that problem.

 

[Seanspeed]

Forgive me if I don't actually believe that. The changes we are seeing are more akin of going down a few notches on the GPU card.

Forgive me if I don't believe that.

I don't think you really know much about the optimization process Forza went through man. And in general, how much experience do you have developing games?

 

[JAYSIMPLE]

The bottom picture looks better....you're focusing on the aliasing on the sidewall tires but literally everything else looks much better on the bottom pic (edit:besides the fans). Just look at the buildings.

Totally correct. I'm a ps4 guy but the second picture clearly has better geometry and overall looks better to me. Sure there's some jaggies on the tires but that's just aa. The whole rest of the image is better in every way

 

[Metalmurphy]

Forgive me if I don't believe that.

I don't think you really know much about the optimization process Forza went through man.

I don't, I do know how taxing the stuff that was removed is though and am familiar with the hardware it's supposed to be running on though. I said right from the get go that there was no way that was running on X1 hardware, go check the original threads, and sure enough, big changes happened. I don't care if anyone believes it or not anyway, I'm not trying to pass it as a fact, just what I think happened, which actually goes in line with what has been said by supposed insiders.

 

[Seanspeed]

I don't, I do know how taxing the stuff that was removed is though and am familiar with the hardware it's supposed to be running on though. I said right from the get go that there was no way that was running on X1 hardware, go check the original threads. I don't care if anyone belives it or not anyway, I'm not trying to pass it as a fact, just what I think happened.

Well when you say that something 'is quite clear', its not far from trying to state it as fact.

 

[adelante]

It's pretty clear to me that two things happened in this game.

- Final code optimization mainly in the art/design department leading to improved looks (ie, palceholder buildings being exchanged, moving stuff around, etc)
- Final code optimization due to changes in hardware leading to downgraded technical aspects, the stuff that's actually taxing on the hardware.

People are focusing more on the latter because it's more then just about Forza 5. It's about fake renders, "fake" hardware, thuway/cboat posts, X1 in general.

I think even nib agrees Forza still is a great game despite all that.

Yeah, those are very possible scenarios. We also have to consider this one fact that everyone seems to forget: the early build that was shown off at E3 has only a handful of cars. So it's fair to assume the game was able to handle all that visual fidelity with that amount of cars on track. Therefore, it's possible that as they worked towards their goal of having a full 16-car grid, they learnt that they couldn't maintain a locked 60fps without sacrificing on visual quality. Maybe with further optimization, that could've been avoided but with launch deadline being as tight as it was, they went the "easy" route (simply replacing the crowds with sprites seems to suggest this).

Oh, there's no doubt that the usual detractors think it's a great game. It's just interesting to see the same people who accuse others of cherry-picking, are

1) doing the same
2) ignoring the fact that "cherry picking" on improvements does not necessarily mean turning a blind eye towards the downgrades.
3) not realizing that said cherry-picking is highly relevant in a thread like this.

 

[Ty4on]

Forgive me if I don't actually believe that. The changes we are seeing are more akin of going down a few notches on the GPU card.

I don't think the Xbox One was downgraded since then considering we knew the HW in February, but I think the first showcases were more like targets running on better HW than the early version. If not T10 has made some strange decisions graphically.

In this comparison:

The depth of field is very aggressive in the reveal footage making it hard to see the building textures clearly, but they have so much more depth to them.
It is enhanced a lot by the windows (they were a lot darker in the E3 build), but most buildings in the final version seem to have a high res texture, but not a lot of polygons and no AO.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Well when you say that something 'is quite clear', its not far from trying to state it as fact.

Ok, *To me*, "it's quite clear". That better? It's what I meant.

 

[Mascot]

Finally got around to watching the HQ DF footage. There might well be downgrades from the E3 noticeable in a frame-by-frame analysis, but in motion and during gameplay the game looks bloody fantastic. And that's what really matters, isn't it?

Having said that, the rotating cardboard clone crowd sticks out like a sore thumb and cannot be unseen. It's like a bad MS Paint attempt at Photoshop. Utterly horrendous.

I wonder if a 3D crowd is loaded in during photomode along with the higher-poly car models? The current 2D crowd will destroy any attempts at photorealism and totally spoil any photos where it's visible with any clarity.

 

[eso76]

Forgive me if I don't actually believe that. The changes we are seeing are more akin of going down a few notches on the GPU card.

you don't have to believe me, Digital Foundry stated several times that the famous Prague demo seen at E3 and Gamescom ran on genuine xbone.

Again, that demo only had ONE car on the track and was still using FM4 physics and that's the only 'Prague' T10 has shown until now: one car/no AI/old physics.
if you read the various FM5 threads, i often express my concern they wouldn't be able to keep the same level of detail with a full 16 cars grid. I was right

 

[Metalmurphy]

you don't have to believe me, Digital Foundry stated several times that the famous Prague demo seen at E3 and Gamescom ran on genuine xbone.

Again, that demo only had ONE car on the track and was still using FM4 physics and that's the only 'Prague' T10 has shown until now: one car/no AI/old physics.
if you read the various FM5 threads, i often express my concern they wouldn't be able to keep the same level of detail with a full 16 cars grid. I was right

IGN demo of the same build looked the same as the Jimmy Fallon one and had the full grid. This was at E3.

 

[travisbickle]

you don't have to believe me, Digital Foundry stated several times that the famous Prague demo seen at E3 and Gamescom ran on genuine xbone.

Again, that demo only had ONE car on the track and was still using FM4 physics and that's the only 'Prague' T10 has shown until now: one car/no AI/old physics.
if you read the various FM5 threads, i often express my concern they wouldn't be able to keep the same level of detail with a full 16 cars grid. I was right

Second video down on this page.

e3 2013forza-motorsport-5 hands-on

On IGN at E3, Dan Greenawalt showing an 8 car 2 lap race at Prague on the Xbox One.

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

Just overall, much lower res both in scenery and cockpit. No more hard shadows, just blobs. They also moved them around so you mostly see building shadows and not much shadows from tree branches/leafs etc. In the previous build you could even see the shadows form the wheel and hands perfectly on the dashboard. That's the kind of thing that really brings life to the game when all those shadows are just moving fast past the interior of the cockpit.

Ah right, this is the sort of shadowing I thought we'd get in F5, not just the usual shadow under the wing and side mirrors.

 

[eso76]

IGN demo of the same build looked the same as the Jimmy Fallon one and had the full grid. This was at E3.

Yes, and that was b-roll footage.
It was never shown in playable form or even real time, it was never an interactive demo, just in-engine prerendered footage with crazy IQ, motion blur and best LOD assets.

Trust me, i've seen and analyzed every bit of FM5 footage.
T10 built a 'target' Prague and rendered trailers and b rolls using those assets. Actual xbone hardware could handle it (as shown at E3 and Gamescom) but not with a full grid of 16 cars/AI/more complex physics.

In a way yes, T10 had targeted a higher spec, or higher performance console.
I am rather sure T10 planned to use LOD0 models ingame, and at some point they were targeting 24 cars multiplayer races, but those things had to be scrapped.
I feel a lot of changes were made in the last few months, which is why we basically didn't get any new media until very recently; T10 has probably been cutting stuff and optimizing until very recently, i am also under the impression that those laser scans produced huge amounts of data they ultimately had to scrap.

 

[Mascot]

Remember that slow-mo closeup of the P1 tyre from the Prague reveal, the one with grey scuff marks on it and "IN-GAME FOOTAGE" or something plastered all over it? Is that no longer the case or are details like that still present?

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

Remember that slow-mo closeup of the P1 tyre from the Prague reveal, the one with grey scuff marks on it and "IN-GAME FOOTAGE" or something plastered all over it? Is that no longer the case or are details like that still present?

Ask again tomorrow!

 

[adelante]

Ask again tomorrow!

People will probably be too busy playing..

But I agree, someone needs to check. If it's indeed missing in final game, it oughta be brought to Turn10's attention!!

 

[Mascot]

Ask again tomorrow!

Fully expecting a flood of pixel-by-pixel comparisons with the pre-release footage once it's out in the wild. Slightly jealous of those getting it, but happy to keep the money for now.

 

[eso76]

Remember that slow-mo closeup of the P1 tyre from the Prague reveal, the one with grey scuff marks on it and "IN-GAME FOOTAGE" or something plastered all over it? Is that no longer the case or are details like that still present?

lol.
no, that was complete bullshottery, as was the closeup on the lambo engine during the race etc.
I also doubt those flakes in metallic paint are actually visible outside of homespace or photomode.

Those trailers were using autovista assets (500k - 1m poly cars...it's..like 1/10th of that ingame) and were basically rendered in photovideomode; perfect IQ, perfect motion blur etc.

I can't wait to see what Quantum Break actually looks like and i wonder if someone can be sued for false advertising here

 

[Emwitus]

Honestly if the crowds and some trees were the only things removed i feel like you guys are really cherry picking at things. No one is going to care about 2d crowds and if they did that to obtain a stable frame rate all the better. Despite my gripes with content(i feel they missed their chance here to curve out the GT crowd) game is looking truly next gen in the graphics department

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Honestly if the crowds and some trees were the only things removed i feel like you guys are really cherry picking at things. No one is going to care about 2d crowds and if they did that to obtain a stable frame rate all the better. Despite my gripes with content(i feel they missed their chance here to curve out the GT crowd) game is looking truly next gen in the graphics department

If someone told me that was Forza 4 I would believe them.

 

[Emwitus]

^^^^

Would you really? The lighting in forza 4 was shit. That looks better than GT lighting. IQ level is far superior too and the car models are well defined.

 

[twobear]

If it's indeed missing in final game, it oughta be brought to Turn10's attention!!

Yeah...I'm sure they're unaware.

 

[Mascot]

lol.
no, that was complete bullshottery, as was the closeup on the lambo engine during the race etc.
I also doubt those flakes in metallic paint are actually visible outside of homespace or photomode.

Those trailers were using autovista assets (500k - 1m poly cars...it's..like 1/10th of that ingame) and were basically rendered in photovideomode; perfect IQ, perfect motion blur etc.

But... in-game footage?
What's the definition?

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

^^^^

Would you really? The lighting in forza 4 was shit. That looks better than GT lighting. IQ level is far superior too and the car models are well defined.

If I didn't have comparison pics yeah I would totally believe it. Sorry but it doesn't exactly scream next gen to me.

 

[CozMick]

Static lighting, 2d crowd, 2d trees, baked shadows and crazy assed aliasing.....

On a 429 great british pounds 2013 games console?

Why are you people defending this shit?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Static lighting, 2d crowd, 2d trees, baked shadows and crazy assed aliasing.....

On a 429 great british pounds 2013 games console?

Why are you people defending this shit?

But it has kinect!

 

[adelante]

Yeah...I'm sure they're unaware.

Could it be possible that I know they're busy and I want them to be constantly reminded?

Tsk... who in the right mind would think they forgot they've downgraded the game's graphics anyway.

 

[soundscream]

Static lighting, 2d crowd, 2d trees, baked shadows and crazy assed aliasing.....

On a 429 great british pounds 2013 games console?

Why are you people defending this shit?

Because we all voted to like things you dont like, sorry

 

[Metalmurphy]

Ah right, this is the sort of shadowing I thought we'd get in F5, not just the usual shadow under the wing and side mirrors.

The sad thing is, GT6 is now more like F5 in that regard, they toned it down for soft blobs rather then hard shadows (and obviously at an even lower res then F5) because too many people complained about the jaggied shadows. Now it's just low res blob shadows everywhere inside the cockpit that you barely notice them. GT5 was so much better in that regard.

 

[artist]

Just caught up with this thread, HOLY SHIT!

 

[SniperHunter]

If someone told me that was Forza 4 I would believe them.

the only positive thing I see here is the motion blur...

 

[Iacobellis]

The crowds in Forza 5 reminds me of games from the 90's like Pebble Beach Golf Links that used images of actual people in 2D form.

Atrocious for a game coming out in 2013.

 

[Raist]

The bottom picture looks better....you're focusing on the aliasing on the sidewall tires but literally everything else looks much better on the bottom pic (edit:besides the fans). Just look at the buildings.

No, I'm not. There's not a hint of aliasing on ANY of the buildings in the background in the top picture, and it's jaggie heaven in the bottom one.

Lighting is flat and muted, actually geometry on the buildings went down and converted to flat textures (e.g windows on that main building on the left), trees look worse, and "minor" details like bits of dirt, smoke etc are also gone. Color range is also completely different (bottom picture looks ridiculously washed out). I thought colours popping more was better?

It's not even close.

 

[eso76]

If someone told me that was Forza 4 I would believe them.

eh, it's ok, we didn' t expect you to know what you're talking about

for reference this is FM4

btw, i'm surprised FM5 uses motion blur even ingame at 60fps, i didn't expect that at all, but frame by frame analysis can't lie.

looks fantastic for a direct feed grab of a, albeit slightly, compressed video

 

[adelante]

looks fantastic for a direct feed grab of a, albeit slightly, compressed video

That finish on the car looks great. I am, however, disappointed to see in one of the videos, that the diffused metallic paint uses a generic cubemap, unlike the one DriveClub that blurs real-time reflections (brought it up in this thread, pic courtesy of Lord Pie):

 

[Skeff]

I thought they'd get rid of the reflected HUD elements by release :/

Good to see them sticking to their solid frame rate mantra though.

 

[adelante]

I thought they'd get rid of the reflected HUD elements by release :/

Oh yeah, speaking of which. I wanna see a bonnet-cam gameplay with the HUD being turned on and off. I hear you can do that while playing (switch between HUD-less to telemetry details to usual position/lap/speedometer stuff).

 

[eso76]

I thought they'd get rid of the reflected HUD elements by release :/

they could have somehow moved those stickers on cars to a different xbone display plane, so that the gpu could grab the clean frame for reflections.

But it's not a problem, you can turn on and off individual hud elements

 

[Red Chocobo]

Remember that slow-mo closeup of the P1 tyre from the Prague reveal, the one with grey scuff marks on it and "IN-GAME FOOTAGE" or something plastered all over it? Is that no longer the case or are details like that still present?

I imagine those details will be in photomode. Which is still technically in-game footage.

 

[ukas]

they could have somehow moved those stickers on cars to a different xbone display plane, so that the gpu could grab the clean frame for reflections.

But it's not a problem, you can turn on and off individual hud elements

You shouldn't have to turn it off to fix their sloppiness.

 

[RetroStu]

Static lighting, 2d crowd, 2d trees, baked shadows and crazy assed aliasing.....

On a 429 great british pounds 2013 games console?

Why are you people defending this shit?

Have you watched the 60fps Gamespot review?, watch it then come back and moan about this stuff. The game looks amazing whether it has had a downgrade or not (and i don't think it has, they just changed stuff and added assets and took some away and changed some textures etc).

 

[adelante]

Have you watched the 60fps Gamespot review?, watch it then come back and moan about this stuff. The game looks amazing whether it has had a downgrade or not (and i don't think it has, they just changed stuff and added assets and took some away and changed some textures etc).

Yeah I just saw that. Does look pretty hawt, especially since their video review was recorded at 60fps. It may not be a huge next-gen leap in visuals but damn, if that isn't an improvement from what we had.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

eh, it's ok, we didn' t expect you to know what you're talking about

Forgot, I'm not allowed to be negative about something someone likes. If you think the first pic you posted is next gen then I have a console just for you, Xbox One.

 

[eso76]

You shouldn't have to turn it off to fix their sloppiness.

you're right, but to be honest i don't understand how those floating stickers bother you in hood reflections but don't bother you in the actual game area.
It doesn't really make a difference, they both break the immersion.

Forgot, I'm not allowed to be negative about something someone likes. If you think the first pic you posted is next gen then I have a console just for you, Xbox One.

i just said you obviously don't know/remember what an actual direct feed grab of a last gen games looks like.

 

[adelante]

you're right, but to be honest i don't understand how those floating stickers bother you in hood reflections but don't bother you in the actual game area.
It doesn't really make a difference, they both break the immersion.

Precisely. Those things hovering above the cars are just plain distracting to begin with.

 

[phosphor112]

The sad thing is, GT6 is now more like F5 in that regard, they toned it down for soft blobs rather then hard shadows (and obviously at an even lower res then F5) because too many people complained about the jaggied shadows. Now it's just low res blob shadows everywhere inside the cockpit that you barely notice them. GT5 was so much better in that regard.

The shadow downgrades are more of a technical limitation. They go for a lower resolution shadow that shows up softer. In return, they get more processing power for the other things they are doing.

Man, I forgot how good technically that game is.

 

[Rising_Hei]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yv2zMBX2Pw

That shadow...

 

[eival]

so when can we expect the SEGA/Aliens CM-type lawsuits to start coming out after all the false advertizements of these launch titles(not just this game in particular) looking better in their demos and trailers, since now in the wake of the SEGA lawsuit nobody can scoff at that idea being "crazy and would never work".

 

[Gestault]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yv2zMBX2Pw

That shadow...

That's a repost of a known and addressed glitch from an almost eight-month old build, lol