QuicheFontaine
Member
Lol, no. Even fucking Mariokart managed 16 tracks.
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Forza 5: The monetization is even worse than you think.
- Thread starter NullPointer
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Lol, no. Even fucking Mariokart managed 16 tracks.
I grew up in an age where the only graphics were 8 bit if you were lucky, often CGA or even mono. Resolutions were on the order of 320x240 on a good day. We should be thankful for every game that now plays at 480p, right? Of course not, times change, expectations change, and importantly, when products iterate, they are supposed to be improved for the consumer.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
please don't Dan Greenawalt......fuck its Dan Greenawalt
Petrae
Member
You do know why Virtua Racing for the Genesis was $100, right? It had zero to do with the content and everything to do with the specialized chip (SVP) housed in every copy. It was also a port of an arcade game-- not a sim. Three tracks and a handful of cars is what we got in the arcade version, so that's what we got in the Genesis port. Later versions of the game did not cost $100.
If you're going to call people out for being "spoiled", you should probably use better examples than this one.
eastx
Member
You're comparing SNES Mario Kart to Virtua Racing, I assume. Even then, Virtua Racing's tracks were modeled with 3D polygons, not a flat bitmapped image with a few sprites and terrain properties thrown in. Virtua Racing was more complex and simulation-oriented.
I agree that it has less replay value than Mario Kart, but they are different kinds of games in the same way that Need for Speed and Forza are much different.
NullPointer
Member
Why the hell were they sent to a media outlet if they were not approved for publication?
QuicheFontaine
Member
No I wasn't comparing Mariokart to Virtua Racing, I was trying to compare "racing games now" to "racing games then". If you think that's unfair because Forza and Virtua Racing fall under a different 'simulation' category, then I can understand that.
However, the point that "you should be happy with 14 tracks because things were way worse back in the day" is nonsense. Hell, you can just go back to the previous Forza game to show that 14 is really not very many tracks. Especially when you can be almost certain that extra tracks will come out next year, and they will cost real money!
dead monkey uk
Member
Most of the games media are scared of PR and most of the time they are participants in the PR message. In journalism if a question is not answered satisfactory or the interviewer detects deception they keep on the topic not move onto the next PR talking point.
And before people say this cannot be done in the gaming media read the bottom third of this interview http://metro.co.uk/2013/11/05/call-...-that-were-not-allowed-to-talk-about-4173810/ The interviewer does not just tickle the PRs persons balls and move on.
Microsoft and Forza developer must be called out on this practice.
antiquegamer
Member
Forza 5 is an improvement for many that actually have and play the game. I couldn't stop playing it even though I raced so many of those tracks in Forza 3&4 and other racers.
sCHOCOLATE
Member
This!
QuicheFontaine
Member
This is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen. Seriously. You compare games from however many years ago to today's? Jesus. The industry is not even REMOTELY the same as it was 10-15-20 years ago(you don't state how far back you're talking here).
It's attitudes like this that perpetuate the shit game developers try to pull these days.
I have no doubt the driving experience is an improvement, but when an aspect of the game is a retrograde step for purchasers of the game, I don't think it is unreasonable to be vocal about that.
Unfuckingbelievable...
eastx
Member
You guys will probably enjoy this satire based on Forza 5's car unlocking system:
Forza 5 developers on monetization: We had an idea to unlock cars once you buy the real life equivalent
My answer to people who feel the game doesn't have enough tracks is: it's a launch game. Obviously they only have a finite amount of time to develop launch tracks, and they actually did remeasure, etc. the real life tracks in order to produce better versions for the new game.
The token and car unlocking issues are fair and important points IMO, even if they don't spoil the game for me. But you can't expect hi-res versions of all the old tracks in a sequel that shows up alongside the system on day one. If Forza 6 comes along in 2 years and only has 14 tracks, Turn 10 is skimping.
Of course, it would be best for consumers if any DLC tracks developed after launch were free, but Microsoft is the publisher so we'll be lucky to get even one free track. That's a separate issue than the value of a launch racing game with 14 tracks though.
Forza 5 developers on monetization: We had an idea to unlock cars once you buy the real life equivalent
My answer to people who feel the game doesn't have enough tracks is: it's a launch game. Obviously they only have a finite amount of time to develop launch tracks, and they actually did remeasure, etc. the real life tracks in order to produce better versions for the new game.
The token and car unlocking issues are fair and important points IMO, even if they don't spoil the game for me. But you can't expect hi-res versions of all the old tracks in a sequel that shows up alongside the system on day one. If Forza 6 comes along in 2 years and only has 14 tracks, Turn 10 is skimping.
Of course, it would be best for consumers if any DLC tracks developed after launch were free, but Microsoft is the publisher so we'll be lucky to get even one free track. That's a separate issue than the value of a launch racing game with 14 tracks though.
it doesnt matter WHY it cost 100, it only matters that i paid 100. and was happy with the purchase.
Nope, why something costs a certain amount certainly matters. You wouldn't buy Real Racing for $60.
dragonelite
Member
The press should deduce games that use micro transaction a complete point.
Instead of an 8.5 without micro transaction they get an 7.5.
Instead of an 8.5 without micro transaction they get an 7.5.
Why is nobody asking Dan why you can't sell cars or parts back to the game??. That's huge! Even if you earn 3 million and buy an open wheeler when you are bored with it instead of trading it in for 1.5 million toward something else you need to go earn ANOTHER 1.5 million
that is ridiculous!
the people bitching about cars and tracks are pitchfork grabbing though. That has little to do with this issue. laser scanning tracks and taking 6 moss to build a Car at this fidelity are legitimate concerns in next Gen development
that is ridiculous!
the people bitching about cars and tracks are pitchfork grabbing though. That has little to do with this issue. laser scanning tracks and taking 6 moss to build a Car at this fidelity are legitimate concerns in next Gen development
i'm not familiar with real racing or why i wouldnt buy it at 60. the point is, if i did buy it at 60 it must be worth that.
what only matters is if you value enough to spend what they are asking. VR was 100 on genesis. had 3 tracks and (iirc) 3 cars. i bought it and loved it. it was worth 100 dollars. does the fact that it cost 100 because it had a special chip in it change the actual value and enjoyment from the game itself? no.
anywho, this isnt going anywhere. i'll enjoy my game. maybe you guys can squeeze MS for more value out of the 60 i've already spent on the game. that would honestly be swell. continue on.
whatsinaname
Member
So you pay $20 extra to level up quicker and get "gifted" cars. And you say that experience is worth it for fans. Aren't those the two exact transactions people have been complaining about for 20 pages now?
fi3rypho3nix
Banned
Seemed like good answers to me.
I have not played the game or followed this thread at all, but I must be missing something here? You can still get the cars, you just have to work for them. If you are not willing to put in the work you can buy them. Is that right?
That's the thing. So far to me, it doesn't (I'm only level 12 atm). Maybe it's because of how I play racing games in general. I've never unlocked all the cars and wont this time either. I buy the cars I want that I can afford and have never used tokens and wont this time. I never sold old cars or parts, but I understand not everyone plays the game the same.
The thing that is frustrating, I did buy the LE because it said I could instantly "buy" any car in the game and that is simply not true. I don't know how they can get away with that. I would have just bought the regular version and saved myself the aggravation.
Speaking of someone who actually plays racing games:
We want DLC cars. A Forza title is on the market for 2 years, lots of interesting cars come out within the 2 year gap between Forzas. I would much rather pay $3 for the GT-86 for Forza 4 than have to wait until 5 to get it for free.
The whole complaining about DLC cars strikes me as the same shit I see from non-fighting game people complaining about Street Fighter 4 updates, ignoring how the community is on their feet cheering, happy to pay for it. Some genres are less popular than others. There aren't a ton of sim racers coming out every year, so refreshing the game you already own (Forza) for a couple of bucks ($3 for a car is about as cheap as fuck) isn't the worst thing in the world. You'll be seeing this kind of thinking in more games throughout this generation.
Now for the other thing:
Forza 4 had had really bad microtransaction nonsense. You could easily get yourself into a spot with career mode where you would not have enough money to buy the car that was effectively required.
Forza 5 is better about that. Since you are always earning credits (even if racing online, even if free-racing, even if you are customizing cars) it is quite hard to get stuck like you could in Forza 4.
Obviously the preferable option is for a GT-style unlocking system with the option to pay a few bucks to unlock everything, but in comparison to past Forza games.....this isn't that bad!
We want DLC cars. A Forza title is on the market for 2 years, lots of interesting cars come out within the 2 year gap between Forzas. I would much rather pay $3 for the GT-86 for Forza 4 than have to wait until 5 to get it for free.
The whole complaining about DLC cars strikes me as the same shit I see from non-fighting game people complaining about Street Fighter 4 updates, ignoring how the community is on their feet cheering, happy to pay for it. Some genres are less popular than others. There aren't a ton of sim racers coming out every year, so refreshing the game you already own (Forza) for a couple of bucks ($3 for a car is about as cheap as fuck) isn't the worst thing in the world. You'll be seeing this kind of thinking in more games throughout this generation.
Now for the other thing:
Forza 4 had had really bad microtransaction nonsense. You could easily get yourself into a spot with career mode where you would not have enough money to buy the car that was effectively required.
Forza 5 is better about that. Since you are always earning credits (even if racing online, even if free-racing, even if you are customizing cars) it is quite hard to get stuck like you could in Forza 4.
Obviously the preferable option is for a GT-style unlocking system with the option to pay a few bucks to unlock everything, but in comparison to past Forza games.....this isn't that bad!
VibratingDonkey
Member
It's about game design being balanced for monetization rather than quality. It taking longer to gain access to stuff in order to make paying for cheats more appealing. Removing and/or restricting sources of in-game income. Altering design in ways that make the game worse, and charging players to circumvent the issues this causes. And just the sheer pervasive, condescending, obnoxious atmosphere this tends to instill games with.
"Would you like to boost yo..." FUCK OFF.
It is highly gross and offputting all around.
fi3rypho3nix
Banned
Reading this I just don't understand the uproar. That said I have not played it. But it seems like they are just trying to find balance to increase longevity. If gamers are willing to just buy it rather than working for it, it is on them. And he said they will be looking at the metrics.
I agree the track count is low for a console release of a sim, but comparing it to games with imaginary tracks is silly. Heck, by comparison I would say Mario Kart should have 50 tracks by now
.Anyway, comparing something that you can just make tracks up for...to making accurate tracks from real life that physically effect cars based on every bump that's really there is a bit unfair.
Comparing it to other Sim releases, or games in the same series from the past is fair.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
So, you're going to do a follow up, right? Seeing as those 'answers' weren't really answers at all, and was some blatant PR spin, sprinkled with tidbits of rationale behind their decisions ...
Edit: I know you guys are bound by convention of needing to keep your access to stay afloat, but stuff like that article is only journalism insofar as you're being a relay device for whatever the devs choose to say (or not say). If you have questions that didn't get addressed, tell the reader that.
seattle6418
Member
This is what saddens me the most, the lenght people go to defend BS practices is absurd. The examples are the worst, it´s like the guy on the last page downplaying the grind assuming that in 12-15 hours of play time he would get the money to buy the car.
And then people bring up the argument that grinding is nothing new to racing games, like if the fact that a mistake in game design is justified just because it´s been there in the past.
I could not be giving a shit to Forza, since i don´t own an Xbone, but i do, because even if i take all the advises of "just don´t buy it" or "hyperbole" it is a huge deal to me because i´m a racing fan.
This has implications for the future. I know Sony isn´t into charity and PC Racing sims are into this mess a long time ago, trying to validate stupid business models like Simbin´s Race Room or Simraceway.
If players are accepting, devs will keep pushing it as far as they can go. GT6 already is giving signs of doing a similar type of BS by selling in game credits, so this is not just about Forza at all. If Forza does it and people approve it, everybody else will follow suit.
I can´t understand, no matter how hard i try, why would regular gamers lose their time downplaying the issue or just straight up defending Turn10.
revthejedi
Banned
I defended this game early on, and the racing aspect of it really is fantastic, but what they've done to the games economy is criminal. I can only hope this issue continues to pick up steam because changes need to be made to this game, or Turn 10 needs to start handing out refunds. To not be able to sell your cars, and the fact that you make the same paltry $15k or $30k for leveling up your driver and 10k a race for gold means even the most ardent Forza players will NEVER amass a collection of the rarest and most desired cars unless they buy tokens. I want my LCE money back, I feel like I'm on Punk'd or something.
Azure Dream
Member
This is the problem. A retail game used to exist in its own little bubble, meant to be started and finished without additional payment. It was like going to the store and buying Candy Land. You take the game home, you learn the rules, and you played it as much as you wanted, without interruption or limitation.
But now, with the demand going toward more complex, more expensive games, developers are specifically designing their products with interruption, with inconvenience, only to offer a paid method of circumventing that inconvenience. They're not simply offering an option to skip a reasonable unlock process, they're beginning to make that unlock process so unreasonable that the only sane way of seeing the "full product" is to pay extra fees, sometimes ridiculous ones.
And it sold terribly and no one remembers it now, not to mention standards were different back then. There is no excuse for Day one DLC or microtransactions on a $60 game. DLC cars and tracks that get released months out are perfectly understandable. Day one DLC is not.
fanboys dont realise they hurt the game by defending this bs
Crimsonsky
Member
Clearly worth it's 82 metacritic. Xbone launch games are superior to the ps4 indeed.
agreed on the dlc front
there are multiple points raised in this thread including at least the following:
- day one paid dlc not included in the free day one dlc (did t10 even end up doing this?)
- the option to buy tokens to buy cars and advance faster. very expensive tokens.
- revised career path and in-game economy. makes getting top tier cars much more challenging. encourages grinding, something the forza series was moving away from previously. also, encourages the purchase of a fore mentioned tokens.
- missing content and requested features from previous games.
i hope no one is viewing me as a console warrior / die-hard forza fan that will accept anything. all of this should be seen as a negative. some of it can be explained and even defended to some extent, but the game would be better off without any of these issues. i'll add that including the option to buy tokens is fine, so long as the in game economy isnt broken. fm5 is a case of 2 steps forward, 2 steps back. there is plenty to be excited for andd love about it. there is plenty to be disappointed about. buuuut, the game is a pleasure to play and IMO (i can only speak for myself here) it is still easily worth the price of admission.
I haven't seen many (maybe any..is there a player or two?) people really defend it.
Most of the people here that are playing Forza 5 have ZERO interest in the Tokens and hate that ANY day-one DLC wasn't included for free. Most thought all day-one stuff would be free...it was expected based on past comments by Turn 10.
I've been after Turn 10 on their forums to give us LE buyers the 10,000 tokens we're owed based on them saying LE buyers would get enough tokens to buy any car in the game. (any single car that is)
Xenon
Member
This thread is hilarious, people are seriously comparing a racing series at the end of one generation to a launch title for another? I get that offering up DLC cars on a game light with content on day one was a stupid thing to do. But blasting MS for the monetization of gaming is factually wrong. Anyone who has ever payed for content in a F2P game or given money in a P2P game, has no right to bitch about the current state we're in. You are the problem. That is where this shit began, and that's why it's seeping into the standard console model. Companies like making money and it's there to be made with P2W.
But here we are again in another bash MS thread where people completely exaggerate and vilify MS. I am looking at you NullPointer. They took away your "right" to used games, they are going to spy on us in our homes, then they gave us less resolution, now they are ruining gaming with monetization! Meanwhile the PS4 is praised for all the F2P content, L O fucking L.
Sure the 10 car DLC thing was a slap in the face. If I was in the market for a racer I might not buy it on principle. But I do think the work they put into the game is evident and you do get your 60 dollars worth out of it. Drawing the lawn for monetization now and with Forza is stupid.
But here we are again in another bash MS thread where people completely exaggerate and vilify MS. I am looking at you NullPointer. They took away your "right" to used games, they are going to spy on us in our homes, then they gave us less resolution, now they are ruining gaming with monetization! Meanwhile the PS4 is praised for all the F2P content, L O fucking L.
Sure the 10 car DLC thing was a slap in the face. If I was in the market for a racer I might not buy it on principle. But I do think the work they put into the game is evident and you do get your 60 dollars worth out of it. Drawing the lawn for monetization now and with Forza is stupid.
Uh, nobody cares about monetizing in a F2P game. Offering content at a HIGH PRICE that was done in the initial development of the game is downright insulting on a $60 game. Turn 10 and Microsoft should be ashamed. They are turning us upside and shaking us to see if any coins will fall out of our pockets after we slapped down $500 on their console and $60 on their game. It's slimy and it's disgusting.
Exactly. And no discounts for Gold members either. Lame.
rogue_nine82
Member
Don't like the monetization.....don't buy any of it. Why complain?
seen so many saying they dont care about this, if you guys dont speak out against this it will only get worse, this shit ruins games for me
Hahahaaa
Xenon
Member
That's my point. People have been paying for games designed around making money. It has now seeped into other aspects of gaming. F2P is the WORST thing to ever happen to my hobby.
Because you're being locked out of the best cars in the game. The cars that they use to promote the game aren't available to you without ridiculous time commitments. Honestly, it's unethical and it's on par with those diet pill commercials that show a super ripped guy and a thin bikini girl.
No, people LIKE YOU defending burdensome monetization in full priced retail games are bad for the hobby. Free to play is fine. It's been an amazing thing for small developers and for gamers in emerging markets.
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