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GamerGate: a discussion without internet-murdering each other about it

I think most people, including myself, have already expressed on numerous occasions that your participation is valued, if only for that fact that people agreeing with each other make for lousy discussions. You can't begrudge people for expressing their concerns on the qualitative nature of this discussion in order to construe it as an attack on yourself.



Everybody has already stated, on numerous occasions, that Anita's harassment was bad, revolting and unjustified. What people take issue with, is that you construe an appeal to emotion out of that concession in order to dismiss any other concern that people are raising. Here's why:

1. People are getting tired of constantly discussing Anita's importance when most of them have pretty much agreed that she was indeed very important in the context of GG. Furthermore, her degree of importance is in no way related to the validity of her claims. The people participating in this discussion have raised multiple concerns about her rhetoric, many of which are simply brushed aside because you keep falling back on her importance. Even if she were of no import in the greater scheme of things, it would not pertain to the qualitative nature of her arguments.

2. By that same measure, we could easily dismiss any criticism directed at Jordan Peterson (or any other person). Peterson knows that the threats he receives are from a militant minority of people that are in no way representative of all of his critics. He could easily appeal to people's emotions by constantly referring to the harassment he receives, in order to vilify his critics. He doesn't do that because he'd rather let his arguments stand on their own merit. You don't see him running around calling his numerous and very vocal critics "human garbage". I think it would be high time for Peterson's opposition to extend the same courtesy to those in support of him and stick to the arguments at hand in order to advance the discussion.

How is it that one set of people is constantly vilified through guilt by association, while another set of people gets away scot-free, despite also having a minority amidst their ranks that's engaging in the same crappy behavior? It's human nature, is what it is. People take umbrage to the fact that Anita is engaging in some kind of faulty generalization in order to shield herself from criticism. At best, she is lacking any kind of debating skills, at worst she has a shaky grasp on the terminology she is dealing in. The fact that she needs to read from a sheet of paper even when she is amidst the ranks of favorable fellow feminists certainly does not lend credence to her expertise. This is speculation of course, but I think party of why her appearances are so scripted is because she's cultivated a very fanatical fellowship that could easily turn on her for the slightest slippage of word.

Meanwhile you have someone like Peterson who's making the rounds despite a strong headwind, despite harassment and threats, freely debating the every living soul out of everybody no matter the odds. That is the sign of someone with true expertise and competence who truly believes in the validity of his cause. The determination to make sacrifice for something that you believe to be right is what separates the wheat from the chaff. Do you honestly think that the great thinkers of this world, who dared challenge the predominant worldview, never faced such strong opposition? In fact the vast majority of them were quite ill-fated and persecuted as wrong-thinkers and heretics, so so many of them. Now I'm not saying that Peterson is one of the greats, but he stands by the same principle, unlike Anita.

Your simple dismissal of these facts (which you seem to propagate in other topics too), not only does a great disservice to those who risked it all by sticking to their principles in order to bring humanity a little step forward, but also underlines your ignorance for the history of science and the scientific method. The scientific liberty of thought is a painful lesson from the past that you so easily dismiss by deeming certain ideas as 'too problematic'. Again, you are certainly free to express your criticism, just as well as I am able to express mine, but please do so by addressing the arguments at hand, instead of referring to your subjective experiences and feelings as an individual.

The difference between you and me is simple. While you seek to silence and deplatform any speaker that is subjectively deemed as 'hateful', I desperately want those who I disagree with to engage in any sort of public debate, so that we can address their arguments. The betterment of humanity happens through education and critical engagement, not through censorship, deplatforming and shaming. We've already tried that in the past and it didn't work out so well. So please do not consider this an attack on you as a person, I'm sure you mean well and want to do good, but as a well reasoned statement against your rhetoric. I have faith that well and openly educated students/gamers/people can deal with any sort of 'problematic content' in a reasonable manner, they don't need your or anybody else's moral guidance.

Nah, I just think there are people who say things which are of no consequence to their argument, don't add anything to the conversation, which are half-qualitative comments on another's arguments, and half-just being an asshole. "Now come back to me when you have a good Argument." is being an asshole. You can comment on other people's points without being an asshole. That's all I have to say.

"People take umbrage to the fact that Anita is engaging in some kind of faulty generalization in order to shield herself from criticism."

That's the thing, I think you're framing my conversation here as me using the harassment to dismiss her legitimate criticism. I.e. All the people who are critiquing her are harassers so why should she have to reply to them. Which isn't really my point. My position is very clearly that I disagree with her not addressing her criticism, but that I understand why she did it, and that along with some other reasons is why it doesn't bother me that much.

"Do you honestly think that the great thinkers of this world, who dared challenge the predominant worldview, never faced such strong opposition?" I've never once even hinted that I thought she was a great thinker so, I don't know what this argument is towards. Again, as I've said before, I disagree with what she did. I agree with what you're saying about great thinkers.

"The difference between you and me is simple. While you seek to silence and deplatform any speaker that is subjectively deemed as 'hateful', I desperately want those who I disagree with to engage in any sort of public debate, so that we can address their arguments."

First off, Misinterpreting me to give the impression that I support the most extreme version of my viewpoint feels more like a strawman than anything else. I've said multiple times that what I am arguing for is the ability for us to debate these issues in a open forum. Of course, the right to voice an opinion is not the right to dictate that opinion onto others. You can make whatever game you would like, and I can critique it in any way I would like.
It's you who's constantly advocated for critique that contain whatever you deem "leftist authoritarian" themes, to basically not exist because you don't view them as legitimate.

I'll finish with these thoughts. If we're having debates about how we should personally treat each other (in both our direct interactions and in our art) , how can we have these arguments without expressing and acknowledging how we make each other feel? Our personal morality of how we treat each other is almost entirely wrapped up in how we believe we are making others feel, and weighing that against our personal cost for placating others. Therefore our subjective experiences and personal emotions are of course relevant here.
 

jonnyp

Member
I can certainly understand that a lot of games are not appealing to women because they were mainly made for a male audience - simply because that's the biggest marketshare to try and capture. It's not rocket science.

However, if women want different games and/or experiences then they need to start creating the types of games they want themselves instead of complaining about the lack of them or the type of content that is currently available. Censoring games that appeal mainly to males is absolutely ridiculous.
 

PtM

Banned
I can certainly understand that a lot of games are not appealing to women because they were mainly made for a male audience - simply because that's the biggest marketshare to try and capture. It's not rocket science.

However, if women want different games and/or experiences then they need to start creating the types of games they want themselves instead of complaining about the lack of them or the type of content that is currently available. Censoring games that appeal mainly to males is absolutely ridiculous.
Those that don't want censored games should make those games themselves.
 
My position is very clearly that I disagree with her not addressing her criticism, but that I understand why she did it, and that along with some other reasons is why it doesn't bother me that much.

I have enumerated many other reasons why she refuses to engage with her criticism, but anyway. If you agree with us on that matter, I'm sure you can see why that is indeed a valid point of concern. Then why rush to her defense only to point out that it doesn't bother you?

First off, Misinterpreting me to give the impression that I support the most extreme version of my viewpoint feels more like a strawman than anything else. [...] Of course, the right to voice an opinion is not the right to dictate that opinion onto others. [...] It's you who's constantly advocated for critique that contain whatever you deem "leftist authoritarian" themes, to basically not exist because you don't view them as legitimate.

I am not misinterpreting you, just trying to make you aware of the fact that the underpinnings of your rhetoric are of authoritarian nature and that your train of thought has an oppressive system as logical consequence. You are right, I've made my reasoned case as to why I reject any kind of authoritarian notions and judging by what you say, you do the same. If that's the case, then I would really like to know, why you are still in support of these authoritarian underpinnings and/or in support of those who do?

I'll finish with these thoughts. If we're having debates about how we should personally treat each other (in both our direct interactions and in our art) , how can we have these arguments without expressing and acknowledging how we make each other feel? [...] Therefore our subjective experiences and personal emotions are of course relevant here.

How we should treat each other is an ethical problem. Some ethical theories refer to emotion, while others refer to reason in order to guide human action. It seems like you are making the case form some kind of compassion ethics / care ethics, which state that moral behavior is the result of empathy. While you're certainly free to take that position, you should be advised that some ethicists would vehemently disagree with that. For example Kant's categorical imperative, John Rawls' theory of justice and many others, all of which are based on cognitive principles. What you are proposing is neither new, nor is it factually true.

Ethics of care criticize that the application of universal principles of reason could lead to indifference, because they make the case that some people deserve more consideration than others. The problem with that is that emotions are purely subjective and individualistic, hence why they are neither verifiable nor falsifiable and cannot ever be rationalized or universalized. I should also add that compassion and empathy are proximity virtues, meaning you care a great deal more about people who are close to you (family, close relatives, friends) than other people who are far away. That's a big problem, since as an individual human being, your emotional capacity can never be extended to a global scale, meaning that there will always be people that you care less about.

In other words... no.
 
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Kadayi

Banned
Nah, I just think there are people who say things which are of no consequence to their argument, don't add anything to the conversation, which are half-qualitative comments on another's arguments, and half-just being an asshole. "Now come back to me when you have a good Argument." is being an asshole. You can comment on other people's points without being an asshole.

T TheGraykid Labelling other posters assholes is all well and good, but it really isn't a satisfactory excuse for you not to address a pretty reasonable question. So I'll repeat for the 4th time.: -

In fact beyond your remonstrations about harassment (something anyone in the public arena can and does face), I'd like to know exactly what the problem would be with her directly addressing and facing a live critique of her work? Where is the loss? If her theories are well founded and robust then she should blaze a trail in any such discourse surely? Is the real fear in fact that when push comes to shove you yourself don't think her ideas are all that grounded? if so, why do you seek to defend them? A truly good argument is tempered through critique.

I'm not interested in hearing your reasons why she doesn't have to do it. I'm interested in hearing what the actual cost to her position would be in doing so?

You've had all day to ponder this. Surely you must have formulated an answer by now?
 
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I have enumerated many other reasons why she refuses to engage with her criticism, but anyway. If you agree with us on that matter, I'm sure you can see why that is indeed a valid point of concern. Then why rush to her defense only to point out that it doesn't bother you?



I am not misinterpreting you, just trying to make you aware of the fact that the underpinnings of your rhetoric are of authoritarian nature and that your train of thought has an oppressive system as logical consequence. You are right, I've made my reasoned case as to why I reject any kind of authoritarian notions and judging by what you say, you do the same. If that's the case, then I would really like to know, why you are still in support of these authoritarian underpinnings and/or in support of those who do?



How we should treat each other is an ethical problem. Some ethical theories refer to emotion, while others refer to reason in order to guide human action. It seems like you are making the case form some kind of compassion ethics / care ethics, which state that moral behavior is the result of empathy. While you're certainly free to take that position, you should be advised that some ethicists would vehemently disagree with that. For example Kant's categorical imperative, John Rawls' theory of justice and many others, all of which are based on cognitive principles. What you are proposing is neither new, nor is it factually true.

Ethics of care criticize that the application of universal principles of reason could lead to indifference, because they make the case that some people deserve more consideration than others. The problem with that is that emotions are purely subjective and individualistic, hence why they are neither verifiable nor falsifiable and cannot ever be rationalized or universalized. I should also add that compassion and empathy are proximity virtues, meaning you care a great deal more about people who are close to you (family, close relatives, friends) than other people who are far away. That's a big problem, since as an individual human being, your emotional capacity can never be extended to a global scale, meaning that there will always be people that you care less about.

In other words... no.

I have multiple reasons. Anita's ideas (from what I've seen) aren't that unique, she's just looking at games from a basic feminist viewpoint. Therefore, I've never felt like there is an individualism to her ideas which requires her participation in order for us to debate them in a thorough manner. Furthermore, as shown in this thread, her and her actions have been personally scrutinised to the point where any discussion of those ideas will undoubtedly become discussion of her personally, and I don't see how that serves the discourse at least compared to us just generally talking about video games from a feminist perspective. Finally, let's say if you saw her on TV, or read about her somewhere, and you thought "that was interesting, I would like to know more" and you decided to type her name into YouTube you will immediately find a a whole host of videos with hundreds of thousands of views critiquing her ideas and actions. If you're a somewhat regular listener of the Joe rorgan podcast, one of the most popular podcasts ever with millions of listeners, then you would have heard Sargon on there critiquing her actions and ideas. Therefore the idea that a counter argument to her isn't being heard both inside of the gaming community and outside doesn't ring entirely true to me. This isn't me reasoning why I don't want it to occur, this is me saying why it isn't a concern of mine.

"just trying to make you aware of the fact that the underpinnings of your rhetoric are of authoritarian nature and that your train of thought has an oppressive system as logical consequence."

I think that we disagree on the endpoint of this type of discourse. Me saying," I don't like this" isn't and will never be a precursor to me saying "and that's why it shouldn't exist" . I think you are of the mindset that due to the nature of the critique I would like to make, that undoubtedly it will end up with me saying "and that's why it shouldn't exist". From my perspective, that's just not the case.

It's not our fault that the nature of our critique gathers such weight. It being so subjective and hitting so close to home for some people isn't our fault. People writing about, let's say, a negative black representation in a video game, aren't doing with the hopes of attracting a national media frenzy that requires the game to be changed. They're doing so to inform their audience. A lot of people who make these critiques are people at tiny media outlets with no hope of ever changing anything.

I think it's interesting to ponder the consequences of saying "I don't like this", in a capitalist society where saying "I don't like this" can have tangible effects on a piece of art/products ability to make money and so be viable. However, any culture critic's duty should be to their readers not the art.

Now, let's get into ethics. I think there's a difference between what ethics should be followed, and what ethics are being followed. I think that moral behaviour for most people is dictated by a form of ethics of care or to be more specific The Golden Rule. Most people in the world are religious, and use their religion as the primary moral authority in their lives. Almost all religions advocate for some kind of version of The Golden Rule, "treat people as you would want to be treated." Even those raised in irreligious backgrounds have heard of that. Therefore for most people it is accurate to say that "Our personal morality of how we treat each other is almost entirely wrapped up in how we believe we are making others feel, and weighing that against our personal cost for placating others." You are right that this form of ethics has its problems, however, I think it is important to highlight how most people think and how most people will be persuaded in this argument.

T TheGraykid Labelling other posters assholes is all well and good, but it really isn't a satisfactory excuse for you not to address a pretty reasonable question. So I'll repeat for the 4th time.: -

In fact beyond your remonstrations about harassment (something anyone in the public arena can and does face), I'd like to know exactly what the problem would be with her directly addressing and facing a live critique of her work? Where is the loss? If her theories are well founded and robust then she should blaze a trail in any such discourse surely? Is the real fear in fact that when push comes to shove you yourself don't think her ideas are all that grounded? if so, why do you seek to defend them? A truly good argument is tempered through critique.

I'm not interested in hearing your reasons why she doesn't have to do it. I'm interested in hearing what the actual cost to her position would be in doing so?

You've had all day to ponder this. Surely you must have formulated an answer by now?

Labelling an action as assholeish is very different than labelling a person as an asshole.

As I said earlier:

"For something that costs you time, intellectual energy and emotional energy, you have to believe it is worth having that dialogue. If you do not believe it is worth having that dialogue then why would you want to participate in that."

In a more simplified form.

Cost = Time + intellectual energy + emotional energy.

Hope that answers your question.
 
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DKehoe

Member
I can certainly understand that a lot of games are not appealing to women because they were mainly made for a male audience - simply because that's the biggest marketshare to try and capture. It's not rocket science.

However, if women want different games and/or experiences then they need to start creating the types of games they want themselves instead of complaining about the lack of them or the type of content that is currently available. Censoring games that appeal mainly to males is absolutely ridiculous.

Gone Home is an example of people who wanted to see something different making that type of game. GamerGate held it up as pretty much their defining example of everything that they thought was wrong with the industry.
 

Dunki

Member
Gone Home is an example of people who wanted to see something different making that type of game. GamerGate held it up as pretty much their defining example of everything that they thought was wrong with the industry.
No they held it up because it made as a GOTY of the decade by journalists. No one cared about the actual game. It was the message produced by Games journalists which was ridiculous. It was a decent game nothing more nothing less.
 

DKehoe

Member
No they held it up because it made as a GOTY of the decade by journalists. No one cared about the actual game. It was the message produced by Games journalists which was ridiculous. It was a decent game nothing more nothing less.

That’s where it becomes a problem to discuss, because you are dealing with people’s opinions. With something subjective like that it’s pretty much impossible to show intent of some kind of conspiracy to over praise it because of an alleged agenda. Because it’s entirely possible that they just really liked the game. There’s not some objective measurement of a game’s quality so you can’t really call out reviewers for straying from what they “should” be scoring it.
 
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Dunki

Member
That’s where it becomes a problem to discuss, because you are dealing with people’s opinions. With something subjective like that it’s pretty much impossible to show intent of some kind of conspiracy to over praise it because of an alleged agenda. Because it’s entirely possible that they just really liked the game. There’s not some objective measurement of a game’s quality so you can’t really call out reviewers for straying from what they “should” be scoring it.
See and I do not agree with this since it is happening on a constant basis. And if you do not agree you are either sexist or racist. Newest example Black Panther. The moment you say it’s a mediocre movie you are stigmatized as racist/trump supporter etc.

Same did and does happen in the gaming industry. Never before where “critics “ and normal people so separated regarding scores.
 

DKehoe

Member
See and I do not agree with this since it is happening on a constant basis. And if you do not agree you are either sexist or racist. Newest example Black Panther. The moment you say it’s a mediocre movie you are stigmatized as racist/trump supporter etc.

Same did and does happen in the gaming industry. Never before where “critics “ and normal people so separated regarding scores.

But could you not also say that those who liked a game like Gone Home or critiqued “traditional” games were then branded as people who hated gamers and were trying to censor everything? When dealing with two large groups of people it can be easy to lump each on the opposite sides of the spectrum. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it plenty of times. But all it really does is make people more hostile to the “opposite side” (even language like that makes it confrontational).
 
Anita's ideas (from what I've seen) aren't that unique, she's just looking at games from a basic feminist viewpoint.

Please, you know as well as I do that Anita and her followers are intersectional feminists. By calling it a 'basic feminist viewpoint' you purposefully make it seem as if she was representing feminism as a whole, by suppressing the fact that there are many different kinds of feminism.

Therefore, I've never felt like there is an individualism to her ideas which requires her participation in order for us to debate them in a thorough manner.

She is the one producing the content, presenting these ideas, influencing people and earning the fame, so it's only natural that she is also the one who should respond to the criticism. You're only trying to deresponsibilize her. Which is even funnier, considering the fact that her fanatical fanbase is constantly screeching at game developers to own their words and the messages presented within their games. But when the tables are turned, suddenly her participation is not required. That's just incredibly lazy.

Furthermore, as shown in this thread, her and her actions have been personally scrutinised to the point where any discussion of those ideas will undoubtedly become discussion of her personally, and I don't see how that serves the discourse at least compared to us just generally talking about video games from a feminist perspective.

Again, just trying to handwave her responsibility. Intentions do matter you know. I'd like to add that I've made my reasonable case against intersectionalism, nevertheless you failed to engage with it. So don't come here claiming that we've only talked about her personality.

Therefore the idea that a counter argument to her isn't being heard both inside of the gaming community and outside doesn't ring entirely true to me. This isn't me reasoning why I don't want it to occur, this is me saying why it isn't a concern of mine.

Now you're just trying to reframe the discussion again. What people have been criticizing was the fact that the professional gaming outlets refused to engage with her message in a critical or nuanced manner, like they did with Jack Tompson for example. Instead they presented her word as incontestable truth, while vilifying the gamers and youtubers within the community who did the work they were supposed to do. Hence doing incredible damage to the gaming community as a whole. You are the one denying that the gaming press holds any kind of responsibility.

"just trying to make you aware of the fact that the underpinnings of your rhetoric are of authoritarian nature and that your train of thought has an oppressive system as logical consequence." I think that we disagree on the endpoint of this type of discourse. Me saying," I don't like this" isn't and will never be a precursor to me saying "and that's why it shouldn't exist".

Let me just quote your own words here, I think they stand on their own: To me, the problem was never bubbles or safe spaces. The problem is the stuff in the middle, it's trash. Where are the places that you can find good left-right debate, not people shouting over each other. The whole "we'll just throw everyone together and it'll all just work out" doesn't work beyond people trying to internet dunk on their opponent.

Don't come here expecting some kind of intellectual or moral vindication, you have your 'bubbles and safe spaces' for that. It's quite evident that you're not willing to compare your arguments to our own because that's exactly what "throwing everyone together" is supposed to be. You don't want your views to be scrutinized, you want them affirmed. Subjectivity is nothing to be proud of, so excuse me for saying that, while I may respect your feelings, I don't care about them in the sense that objective truth is more important than subjective feelings. And yes, truth hurts sometimes, we've all been there.

By the way, you 'critique' goes a lot further than mere criticism. By stating that any subjectively perceived '-ism' in a video game is harmful you automatically imply that people need to be protected and said game should not be played. Are Kingdom Come, GTA V, the Red String Club, Bayonetta, Hitman, and BOTW not enough? How many more games need to be subjected to your insufferable, intolerant, self-righteous and narrow-minded moral outrage and 'critique'? By this point, you're handing out -isms and -phobias like cookies.

It's not our fault that the nature of our critique gathers such weight. It being so subjective and hitting so close to home for some people isn't our fault.

That's just plain old sophistry and I'm not interested in that.

However, any culture critic's duty should be to their readers not the art.

I.e. pandering to what their audience wants to hear.

Now, let's get into ethics. I think there's a difference between what ethics should be followed, and what ethics are being followed. [...] You are right that this form of ethics has its problems, however, I think it is important to highlight how most people think and how most people will be persuaded in this argument.

So you agree that your ethical reasoning is flawed, yet you willfully ignore these problems in order to persuade people. Again, brilliant sophistry. I do not care about popular opinion, I only care about what is true.

I think that moral behaviour for most people is dictated by a form of ethics of care or to be more specific The Golden Rule. Most people in the world are religious, and use their religion as the primary moral authority in their lives. Almost all religions advocate for some kind of version of The Golden Rule, "treat people as you would want to be treated." Even those raised in irreligious backgrounds have heard of that. Therefore for most people it is accurate to say that "Our personal morality of how we treat each other is almost entirely wrapped up in how we believe we are making others feel, and weighing that against our personal cost for placating others."

I was not trying to make a point as to which ethical principle was the right one, that's a never-ending debate. I was merely trying to broaden your perspectives by showing you that other ethical theories exist and that what you're claiming is far from factual truth. Unfortunately you refused to engage, instead replying with a whole lot of assumptions, many of which aren't even coherent with each other. You could have learned something, but no, you decided to reply by employing some of the most banal stereotypes, merely reinforcing the assumption that your grasp on ethical science is severely lacking. Let me tell you why:

'The Golden Rule': No serious ethicist worth his salt is still relying on the Golden Rule, considering its myriad problems. The Golden Rule does not ask of us to be kind and generous, nothing like that is mentioned in the rule, nor implied. For example, masochistic people gain pleasure from pain, the Golden Rule would give them the right to inflict pain upon others. Your very own feminist perspective is not even in agreement with the Golden Rule! If you claim tolerance for yourself, you need to tolerate others too.

'Religion is the primal moral authority': Hearing something like that from someone on the far left is just too funny,Hitchens would like a word with you. Are you sure you wouldn't be more comfortable on the religious right? Even funnier because that would imply that agnostics and atheists would be without morals. In fact, most ethical theories are purely secular and have absolutely nothing to do with religion. You are aware, I hope, that moral progress was the result of secularization, especially during the age of enlightenment. So please, show come gratitude for those explicitly rupturing with religious morality, thus laying the groundwork for your progressive ideals by risking their lives.

'Most people have heard of the Golden Rule, therefore it's true': Your argumentum ad populum is not even an argument. 300 years ago, most people believed the earth was flat, so what? I could as well claim that most people are hedonists, that wouldn't make it any more or any less true.

Again, would you rather adhere to something that is untrue in order to appeal to the purely subjective preferences of the majority? Yes, yes you would, let me repeat your words:

I think it is important to highlight how most people think and how most people will be persuaded in this argument.

What you are proposing is nothing more than moral populism, which is not only incredibly ignorant and manipulative, but doesn't even elevate your reasoning above the populist views of the far-right. But please, you keep telling yourself that 'the middle is trash'.
 
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Dunki

Member
But could you not also say that those who liked a game like Gone Home or critiqued “traditional” games were then branded as people who hated gamers and were trying to censor everything? When dealing with two large groups of people it can be easy to lump each on the opposite sides of the spectrum. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it plenty of times. But all it really does is make people more hostile to the “opposite side” (even language like that makes it confrontational).
If you are a normal person I have no problem with that. If you are a journalists you have or at least had a ton of power to influence games. So yes I think it is a problem when tons of journalists do this. AGain Gone home was not even a good walking simulator. It only got these scores because of the political agenda and that is what is bothering me. IT was not even a good story. "Oh look she is a lesbian" that was the whole message in the end and it was fucking weak to call this a GOTY. If it did not had this message it would be forgotten in like a week.

Just look how tacoma suddenly was out and NO ONE talked about it even it did everything so much better than gone home.
 

Kadayi

Banned
Labelling an action as assholeish is very different than labelling a person as an asshole.

I wouldn't say there's much in it in terms of intent.

"For something that costs you time, intellectual energy and emotional energy, you have to believe it is worth having that dialogue. If you do not believe it is worth having that dialogue then why would you want to participate in that."

You're 70 posts deep at this point. You've been trying to defend your position tooth and nail. I don't buy it that suddenly a simple 'what if' question is somehow a bridge too far on an emotional and intellectual level for you to contend with.

When places like the ADL are promoting peoples work for school projects and thus assigning them some academic credibility in the process : -

https://www.adl.org/sites/default/f.../education-outreach/is-gaming-a-boys-club.pdf

I think at the very least their work should be subject to peer review of some sort, if not some proper media discussion as to its academic worth as a counterpoint. Not given the semblance of respectability solely as a result of the author's travails.
 
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Cybrwzrd

Banned
I agree with you, she should have done that. I would have liked to see that. However, I can understand her not doing that. You should brush your teeth twice a day, however if you get drunk one night and don't do that when you get home, I can understand you not brushing your teeth. Understanding is not an endorsement. It just means I probably won't feel as frustrated as some people here.

I can’t just overlook this. She was positing a thesis and part of academic rigor is taking and answering to criticism. You don’t graduate in an academic environment without defending your thesis from criticism.
 

Geki-D

Banned
I can’t just overlook this. She was positing a thesis and part of academic rigor is taking and answering to criticism. You don’t graduate in an academic environment without defending your thesis from criticism.
It's pretty funny seeing this be debated, because I was banned from NG many years ago for daring to say the same thing. Apparently Besada considered it "offensive garbage" to make such a suggestion.

But either way, the fact that she never did is just insane to me considering how many people, and especially news sources, took her word as gospel. I can understand not wanting your work to be criticized, but the mere fact you're unwilling to discuss it with anyone, and lets be honest here, we're not saying she had to talk to EVERYONE including some of her more inflammatory critics, shows an utter lack of faith in her own work. I mean she never even dared to setup a "softball debate", the number of times she actually defended her work stands at a grand total of ZERO.
 
The fact that she refused to debate anyone showed she had little confidence in her arguments. Maybe she thought they could have been countered?
 
Please, you know as well as I do that Anita and her followers are intersectional feminists. By calling it a 'basic feminist viewpoint' you purposefully make it seem as if she was representing feminism as a whole, by suppressing the fact that there are many different kinds of feminism.



She is the one producing the content, presenting these ideas, influencing people and earning the fame, so it's only natural that she is also the one who should respond to the criticism. You're only trying to deresponsibilize her. Which is even funnier, considering the fact that her fanatical fanbase is constantly screeching at game developers to own their words and the messages presented within their games. But when the tables are turned, suddenly her participation is not required. That's just incredibly lazy.



Again, just trying to handwave her responsibility. Intentions do matter you know. I'd like to add that I've made my reasonable case against intersectionalism, nevertheless you failed to engage with it. So don't come here claiming that we've only talked about her personality.



Now you're just trying to reframe the discussion again. What people have been criticizing was the fact that the professional gaming outlets refused to engage with her message in a critical or nuanced manner, like they did with Jack Tompson for example. Instead they presented her word as incontestable truth, while vilifying the gamers and youtubers within the community who did the work they were supposed to do. Hence doing incredible damage to the gaming community as a whole. You are the one denying that the gaming press holds any kind of responsibility.



Let me just quote your own words here, I think they stand on their own: To me, the problem was never bubbles or safe spaces. The problem is the stuff in the middle, it's trash. Where are the places that you can find good left-right debate, not people shouting over each other. The whole "we'll just throw everyone together and it'll all just work out" doesn't work beyond people trying to internet dunk on their opponent.

Don't come here expecting some kind of intellectual or moral vindication, you have your 'bubbles and safe spaces' for that. It's quite evident that you're not willing to compare your arguments to our own because that's exactly what "throwing everyone together" is supposed to be. You don't want your views to be scrutinized, you want them affirmed. Subjectivity is nothing to be proud of, so excuse me for saying that, while I may respect your feelings, I don't care about them in the sense that objective truth is more important than subjective feelings. And yes, truth hurts sometimes, we've all been there.

By the way, you 'critique' goes a lot further than mere criticism. By stating that any subjectively perceived '-ism' in a video game is harmful you automatically imply that said game should not be played. Are Kingdom Come, GTA V and the Red String Club not enough? How many more games need to be subjected to your insufferable, intolerant, self-righteous and narrow-minded 'critique'?



That's just plain old sophistry and I'm not interested in that.



I.e. pandering to what their audience wants to hear.



So you agree that your ethical reasoning is flawed, yet you willfully ignore these problems in order to persuade people. Again, brilliant sophistry. I do not care about popular opinion, I only care about what is true.



I was not trying to make a point as to which ethical principle was the right one, that's a never-ending debate. I was merely trying to broaden your perspectives by showing you that other ethical theories exist and that what you're claiming is far from factual truth. Unfortunately you refused to engage, instead replying with a whole lot of assumptions, many of which aren't even coherent with each other. You could have learned something, but no, you decided to reply by employing some of the most banal stereotypes, merely reinforcing the assumption that your grasp on ethical science is severely lacking. Let me tell you why:

'The Golden Rule': No serious ethicist worth his salt is still relying on the Golden Rule, considering its myriad problems. The Golden Rule does not ask of us to be kind and generous, nothing like that is mentioned in the rule, nor implied. For example, masochistic people gain pleasure from pain, the Golden Rule would give them the right to inflict pain upon others. Your very own feminist perspective is not even in agreement with the Golden Rule!

'Religion is the primal moral authority': Hearing something like that from someone on the far left is just too funny,Hitchens would like a word with you. Are you sure you wouldn't be more comfortable on the religious right? Even funnier because that would imply that agnostics and atheists would be without morals. In fact, most ethical theories are purely secular and have absolutely nothing to do with religion. You are aware, I hope, that moral progress was the result of secularization, especially during the age of enlightenment. So please, show come gratitude for those explicitly rupturing with religious morality, thus laying the groundwork for your progressive ideals by risking their lives.

'Most people have heard of the Golden Rule, therefore it's true': Your argumentum ad populum is not even an argument. 300 years ago, most people believed the earth was flat, so what? Would you rather adhere to something that is untrue in order to appeal to the purely subjective preferences of the majority? Yes, yes you would, let me repeat your words:



What you are proposing is nothing more than moral populism, which is not only incredibly ignorant and manipulative, but doesn't even elevate your reasoning above the populist views of the far-right. But please, you keep telling yourself that 'the middle is trash'.

"Please, you know as well as I do that Anita and her followers are intersectional feminists. By calling it a 'basic feminist viewpoint' you purposefully make it seem as if she was representing feminism as a whole, by suppressing the fact that there are many different kinds of feminism." as I've said multiple times in this thread, I have not really watched her content so you framing it as me purposely misrepresenting her views is completely wrong. Furthermore, from the little I have seen from her work, from the things people say about her and from the way she, herself, presents her work it doesn't come across as "an intersectional feminists critique of the gaming industry".

It’s difficult for me to respond to your arguments, when you’re constantly arguing against a strawman of your own creation. For example, I say what she did was wrong, I say if you feel based on that like she’s not a “great thinker” or worthy of your time that you are completely in the right, that’s a legitimate train of thought, however, I feel a level of sympathy for that situation and for other reasons I don’t feel as strongly as some others do about the situation. Your response, “You’re defending her! You’re trying to say that she doesn’t have a responsibility to debate those points”. Do you see how your response has near nothing to do with what I’ve expressed throughout this entire thread? You say that I’m defending someone, whilst I’m saying that they were wrong, you’re saying that I’m trying to remove responsibility from her, whilst I’m saying she 100% has that responsibility. Who are you arguing with? It is clearly not me right now.

"Instead they presented her word as incontestable truth," Please do show me the articles where they do that, instead of just interviewing her, and allowing her to express her points, in the same way anyone gets interviewed, even someone like Thompson did by places like IGN back in 05.


"Let me just quote your own words here" or "let me misunderstand your post, then cherry pick the phrases that suit my ideas about who you are so I can argue against that instead of the things you actually say"

"The middle is trash" isn't an argument against debate, it's pointing out that we have no good, mainstream places to debate in the middle. There's a reason I said, "Where are the places that you can find good left-right debate, not people shouting over each other?" CNN is trash for debates, Twitter is trash for debates. Where are those TV shows, podcasts? I really do honestly want to know, I would like to watch and listen to these things, but I don't know where they are. If Twitter is our big mainstream place for debate in the middle, then the middle is surely trash.

"Don't come here expecting some kind of intellectual or moral vindication, you have your 'bubbles and safe spaces' for that. It's quite evident that you're not willing to compare your arguments to our own because that's exactly what "throwing everyone together" is supposed to be. You don't want your views to be scrutinized, you want them affirmed. Subjectivity is nothing to be proud of, so excuse me for saying that, while I may respect your feelings, I don't care about them in the sense that objective truth is more important than subjective feelings. And yes, truth hurts sometimes, we've all been there."

It's yet another huge strawman. Let's break it down. "It's quite evident that you're not willing to compare your arguments to our own" except that's all I've been doing in both this thread and others. "Don't come here expecting some kind of intellectual or moral vindication," which I never said or indicated I wanted. "You don't want your views to be scrutinized, you want them affirmed." again, you seem to like to read my posts, but somehow miss that debating with people who have different views from me is all I've been doing. "Subjectivity is nothing to be proud of, so excuse me for saying that, while I may respect your feelings, I don't care about them in the sense that objective truth is more important than subjective feelings. And yes, truth hurts sometimes, we've all been there." And, here is where we provide the final piece of framing puzzle, "your ideas are subjective and based on emotion, whilst my ideas are based on objective truth". Which becomes hilarious when you realise that both of our arguments are based in our subjective views on what we would like the critique in gaming to look like. Things that literally have no objective truth.

"By the way, you 'critique' goes a lot further than mere criticism. By stating that any subjectively perceived '-ism' in a video game is harmful you automatically imply that said game should not be played. Are Kingdom Come, GTA V and the Red String Club not enough? How many more games need to be subjected to your insufferable, intolerant, self-righteous and narrow-minded 'critique'?" Most of this is just subjective emotional rambling. However, I do want to clear up a couple of things.

1. Not everyone who wants to critique games for their portrayal of society is a clone of Anita, so, I have no idea why you're posting a femfreq link here and trying to attribute that to mine or anyone else's viewpoints.
2. Saying a game is problematic is nothing like saying that it should not be played. I, personally, don't see many modern writers outright calling games "harmful".
3. I've read those GTA V and RSC articles, both of them call these games awesome. Both of them mention the content that bothers them personally, and say it would be interesting if the creators took things in a different direction, however, none of them orders anything. None of the writers in question calls the games harmful or any synonyms of the word. The closest thing is in the GTA article the writer says "That GTAV is misogynistic is a defensible position.", it the writer merely claiming that it is an argument that could be had. In fact, in the case of the RSC article, on the top of the article, you can find a link to another article where they talk to the creators about the content in question. Both writers say that they liked playing these games. I have to ask if you even read these articles, it appears like you simply picked them because of their titles.


"Pandering to what their audience wants to hear." That's such a misrepresentation of the idea. It's about expressing your honest thoughts, and not changing them in order to protect a piece of art.

We were never debating which is the best ethical framework for people to use. If you would like to do that, make another thread, I'm sure people would be very interested in that. We're debating the value of personal experience-emotion in this conversation. My argument is that the ethical framework that most people use means that they value personal experience and emotion. Yours (from what I can see, please correct me if I'm mistaken) is that they have no place in this debate because you believe that most people's moral framework is "wrong" (which in itself is a wild statement to me because every ethical framework has its promoters and detractors, its pros and cons. Even your Golden Rule critiques have rebuttals by other thinkers. So, to me that's an entirely subjective statement) and that so it is unethical populism to do so.

'The Golden Rule': See above.

'Religion is the primal moral authority': This one is actually my mistake. My phone autocorrected prime to primal. I apologise for that confusion.

'Most people have heard of the Golden Rule, therefore it's true': That's again, a misrepresentation of my argument. I'm arguing about what most people use as a framework for their lives, not what is "true".

"Again, would you rather adhere to something that is untrue in order to appeal to the purely subjective preferences of the majority? Yes, yes you would, let me repeat your words:" Communication is all about being able being able to exchange ideas successfully, if the best way you can explain an idea to people is via their own personal moral framework, then I see nothing wrong with that. Your "alt-right" comparison is way off. There's a difference between presenting a falseness (either on purpose or not purposefully because you are ignorant) in order to appeal to a person's moral framework, and presenting a personal truth/experience in order to appeal to a person's moral framework. One of these things is just plain lying to people, the other is not that.
 
again, you seem to like to read my posts, but somehow miss that debating with people who have different views from me is all I've been doing.

By this point, you're not debating, merely deflecting.



Anyway, back on topic. The recent Eurogamer article on Kingdom Come was hilarious. Let me translate:

But there's also a big problem. There are no people of colour in the game beyond people from the Cuman tribe, a Turkic people from the Eurasian Steppe.

"I'm sorry Turkish people, Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Kyrgyz and Kazakhs people, Germans, Hungarians and Czechs. Your diversity is simply not good enough. Because I know nothing about you."

"You just can't know nobody got sick and stayed a longer time," he says. "What if a group of black Africans came through and stayed at an inn and someone got pregnant? Even one night is enough for a pregnancy."

"We don't have the slightest clue if Y ever happened but because Y is not in the game, it's problematic."

It's not conclusive proof but it's readily available doubt to undermine Warhorse's interpretation.

"We simply don't know, so we're just making stuff up in order to get more outrage clicks."

Needless to say, the article is being torn to shreds in the comment section.
 
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Geki-D

Banned
The fact that she refused to debate anyone showed she had little confidence in her arguments. Maybe she thought they could have been countered?
Or that she knew her points are weak, or that she just didn't believe them herself or knows very little about the actual topic outside of the little games she did research with a bunch of people behind her. Honestly, I think she just didn't care, I think she did it for the recognition and the moola and just jumped on a popular topic without any real knowledge of it. As evidence of this, besides a video of her outright saying she "doesn't do games", outside of one time she had her photo taken as a kid playing a SNES, she has never besides once did anything in her career in till that kickstarter in regards to video games despite claiming it's something she knows well and has engaged in all of her life. She pretty much made videos about anything before that and yet only once talked about ads in Japan of Bayonetta, in which she showed a utter lack of understanding of the game and showed no knowledge of gaming nor mentioned at any point actually playing them.
 
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Hello All, I've been researching Gamergate for the past 4 years now. I have bookmarked thousands of articles, saved countless images and files relating to its history. The conclusions I have drawn are more complicated then "gg was a hate group/harassment campaign" or "Anti-GG are living in glass houses". The truth, if it can be interpreted that way, seems to point towards a fault line in internet communications, sociological theories surrounding the term "forward panic" and basic human nature (ie: Humans don't like to be proven wrong and in fact will continue to maintain their stance in the face of abundant evidence of their misguided stances). If anyone would like to chat with me in a civil matter in this regard, I am available on twitter https://twitter.com/Thoughtful_Salt
 

Darryl

Banned
The fact that she refused to debate anyone showed she had little confidence in her arguments. Maybe she thought they could have been countered?

I never felt as though she was creating arguments. I felt as though she were attempting to create a product off a movement and enshire herself as a public figure. I don't blame her. If I saw her opportunity, I would have seized it and made videos just as stupid for the money. Some people can't help but to fill a power vacuum they can define - I do it too. Her products can be borderline insulting to some people, either because they stoke gender division, frame people as offenders, or are simply intellectually insulting. I don't blame Anita at all. I think she is a crafty attempt of an entrepreneur. I think the problem has always been with those who will defend her (the ones she made the product for to begin with). People defend her more than she will defend herself. She has preyed on those people and it shows itself in how little she will stick up for them by standing up for herself.
 

TheKKM

Neophyte
Well, never thought I'd be posting here. I'll be reading the entire thread and making a larger post later, but for now, I'd like to just salute the forum for opening discussion of GG at all, and reply some thoughts to the OP.

So first of all, quick disclaimers. Joined now specifically since I saw NeoGaf opening up discussion on this at all, which impressed me enough. At this point I pretty much have at least a lack of care to most GG "e-celebs" or whatever, but for what I saw at the start, I still think there was right in the amorphous mess that was GG, that we were I suppose I should say. I'm also the guy who drew a gif of Vivian James dancing because NeoGaf was burning when the whole mess happened back in October. I remember a few people feeling hurt by that here, so for what's worth, it was pretty mean, sorry on that, it just felt really good for lots of people outside this forum tired of the holier-than-thou attitude that'd been bred in it.

A quick view of what GG was, from my perspective, was "a lot of people with good grievances but lack or perspective get told to shut up and thus end up under the influence of right-wing groups who're the only ones who'd give them a chance to ask the questions they had on their mind". I sometimes desperately imagine an alternate universe where instead of general banning of talking about this stuff and the games journos all circling their wagons, people had been allowed to ask things like "did this Nathan Grayson thing really happen" outside of 4chan and thus you would've had it develop much more naturally, I suppose. I'll exposit on that later probably, I'm trying to keep it short on this post since it's late at night.

OP's questions:
1. Games are about fun, not politics
Yes, with asterisk. What people who say that often mean is, "the blunt use of politics and preaching attitude either shoved in game series where there were none, in localisation of games where there were none, or in new games that then get praised and carried into relevancy purely on their politics rather than their merit as a game as a whole, is something that should be avoided". Few people complain of politics in Metal Gear Solid, after all, while a lot more complain of clumsy feminist rhetoric shoved in a dub of an anime (not a game but similar for this example). Political thrillers are always great, products having political influence and thoughts in them can be awesome, but no-one likes to instead feel like they're having fun reading a book and someone slaps the book from their hands to tell them about this or that. Like I mentioned above though, a lot of people sharing this sentiment were acting in reaction, on the moment, in my opinion, and thus instead of being able to articulate all that, fell for the easy clip of "games are fun not politics"- and a lot of people who should've easily understood this instead either intentionally or not pretended to take them literally so they could complain and dismiss them.

2. Facts over feelings
I generally agree with you. It's a good soundbit and a good intention but in practice it's generally just used as a dismissing tool.

3. Censorship is always bad
I mean, I hold it is. It sounds to me like OP took a bit of a different reading from the sentiment intended. With the obvious disclaimer that like with 1., a lot of people just get swept in the reaction and thus don't quite manage to articulate what they're meaning, the question of censorship is generally intended for calls for altering the content of games, and for when they are altered. Things like removing the headpatting in Fire Emblem, things where instead of just a "I don't think the game should've had this" the atittude in a lot of anti-GG and journalist people felt more like gloating that this element they didn't like got removed. There's a difference there, I think- one is a criticism, the other celebrating that something others might've wanted was outright removed. This gloating is what leads to the overreaction in response. When you have a whole bunch of people, say, like with the upcoming SNK fighter, in interviews with the devs constantly focus on "why is this so sexy, this shouldn't be sexy like this in the west", after years of other games getting altered like that, it makes sense that to either fans of the series or just people like me who don't care but find the way games are so easily treated as a medium that can be changed just like that in "localisation", that just sounds like a bunch of red flags of "we're trying to force you to alter this".

I don't know, this was a bit rambly, and in case you can't tell, I'm not anglophone native anyway, so sorry if it feels like a load of faff that's not saying much. Really I just want to see this almost historical moment of "holy shit, neogaf is actually letting people talk about this sort of thing now!"
 

Kadayi

Banned
Hello All, I've been researching Gamergate for the past 4 years now. I have bookmarked thousands of articles, saved countless images and files relating to its history. The conclusions I have drawn are more complicated then "gg was a hate group/harassment campaign" or "Anti-GG are living in glass houses". The truth, if it can be interpreted that way, seems to point towards a fault line in internet communications, sociological theories surrounding the term "forward panic" and basic human nature (ie: Humans don't like to be proven wrong and in fact will continue to maintain their stance in the face of abundant evidence of their misguided stances). If anyone would like to chat with me in a civil matter in this regard, I am available on twitter https://twitter.com/Thoughtful_Salt

Not really one for the Twitters. Mayhap you can share some of your more detailed observations here. I dare say many people would be interested in your conclusions.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
Did we ever get any proof of this?

I do not believe we have. I have even had this conversation with others on Twitter and I have yet to recieve any evidence to show. They just parrot the same few sentences, "He says racist stuff", "He followed someone on gamergate, he is an alt right douchebag", etc. None so far have come to show actual evidence of this racist behavior.
 

prag16

Banned
I do not believe we have. I have even had this conversation with others on Twitter and I have yet to recieve any evidence to show. They just parrot the same few sentences, "He says racist stuff", "He followed someone on gamergate, he is an alt right douchebag", etc. None so far have come to show actual evidence of this racist behavior.
The most he's done is rail against SJWs, and voice support for Gamergate (the ethics in games journalism and anti-censorship side... not the harassment and hate campaigns). I haven't been shown anything clearly racist/sexist. Seems like he might be kind of an asshole at times, but going from that to "vile alt-right racist" is a leap.

But in some circles, what I said in my first sentence is quite enough (MORE than enough) to forever become persona non grata.
 
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F0rneus

Tears in the rain
Did we ever get any proof of this?

I checked out of this discussion when someone brought up "non-mainstream" racial views as being a legit point.. I don't feel like there's anything good that can come out of this conversation anymore, at least from my end.
For example for me this is very Islamophobic. I think people here will disagree so I didn't need to feel to post anything.

Untitled_12.jpg
 

Dunki

Member
I checked out of this discussion when someone brought up "non-mainstream" racial views as being a legit point.. I don't feel like there's anything good that can come out of this conversation anymore, at least from my end.
For example for me this is very Islamophobic. I think people here will disagree so I didn't need to feel to post anything.

Untitled_12.jpg
Wait. But this is what did happen and besides destruction of the western world this is what ISIS is doing. Erdogan wants also the old borders back if possible even until Austria. He even claimed parts of greece and wants it back. Same with his attack agaist the kurds in Syra. He promoted maps in which turkey got parts of Irak as well. This has nothing to do with being islamophobic. Radical Islam has nothing to do with normal Islam but radical Islam is what is getting spread like Cancer in the middle east and Europe inclusive Turkey. Only hope of light seems to be Saudi Arabia which seems to try to get away from this. But as "good" as their new leader is right now he also has to be very careful to change too much to fast.

I can not speak for Bill Warner though. But history wise its correct. Again Islam is and never was an oppressed religion. They were as bad and today are even worse than Christian religion.
 
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F0rneus

Tears in the rain
I mean it's an accumulation of things. It's not JUST that. Dude keeps posting that kind of material. And retweets a lot of far right figures on his Twitter like Devin McInnis, a guy who wants to close Canada's borders, women to return to their "tradional roles", and a guy who doesn't want advertising to show mixed races couples etc, etc. You know that guy who made Holocaust video that David Duke praised (so he cussed him out lol)

And that's just one guy he retweets. He's pretty deep in the far-right stuff, which is why IMO he's a shitheel.

But then again at the end of the day, he was right about his game's presentation of race. I never felt like there was any legit argument there, unless you want to argue with the professional historian they hired, which I assume knows a bit more than all of us about history.
 

prag16

Banned
But then again at the end of the day, he was right about his game's presentation of race. I never felt like there was any legit argument there, unless you want to argue with the professional historian they hired, which I assume knows a bit more than all of us about history.
But that's seemingly the main thing most are up arms about.. I've seen some even baselessly try to claim Bohemia was a veritable melting pot at the turn of the 14th century. But we live in a world where facts are racist, statistics are racist, and even math is racist now.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/i...ually-claiming-math-is-racist/article/2638468
 

F0rneus

Tears in the rain

Zomba13

Member
If you think gamergate is or was ANYTHING other than a cheap attempt by some shitstains to harass female game developers then I have a bridge to sell you (or you're being intentionally disingenuous).

Yeah, some misguided people may have latched onto a hate campaign thinking it was about "ethics in games journalism" but it is so SO easy to just look at its origin of a guy being mad about Zoe Quinn and spreading easily debunked lies about how she sleeps around for good review scores or trying to say how her alleged infidelity in a relationthips is somehow relevant to videogames or ANYONE at all and it's honestly pretty sickening seeing so many jump on the "oh GG was just misunderstood, we're just asking questions guys" bandwagon.
 

KevinKeene

Banned
If you think gamergate is or was ANYTHING other than a cheap attempt by some shitstains to harass female game developers then I have a bridge to sell you (or you're being intentionally disingenuous).

Yeah, some misguided people may have latched onto a hate campaign thinking it was about "ethics in games journalism" but it is so SO easy to just look at its origin of a guy being mad about Zoe Quinn and spreading easily debunked lies about how she sleeps around for good review scores or trying to say how her alleged infidelity in a relationthips is somehow relevant to videogames or ANYONE at all and it's honestly pretty sickening seeing so many jump on the "oh GG was just misunderstood, we're just asking questions guys" bandwagon.

Maybe you should read the thread before posting.

Summary: GG isn't about harassment. But you're probably not interested in educating yourself. Bummer.
 

Zomba13

Member
Maybe you should read the thread before posting.

Summary: GG isn't about harassment. But you're probably not interested in educating yourself. Bummer.
GG absolutely is about harassment. It is disappointing that you aren't willing to educate yourself on its origins.

Hey, if you want to start some kind of online movement against censorship or because you want objective reviews with no subjectivity or you don't want to see more inclusive games then all the power to you. You go make that group and tweet up a storm! But, maybe, don't tie yourself to a hashtag that started as a harassment campaign. It just invalidates anything you have to say. If you aren't a misogynistic asshole then why throw your hat into the ring with the misogynists? It just muddies your message.
 

Dunki

Member
If you think gamergate is or was ANYTHING other than a cheap attempt by some shitstains to harass female game developers then I have a bridge to sell you (or you're being intentionally disingenuous).

Yeah, some misguided people may have latched onto a hate campaign thinking it was about "ethics in games journalism" but it is so SO easy to just look at its origin of a guy being mad about Zoe Quinn and spreading easily debunked lies about how she sleeps around for good review scores or trying to say how her alleged infidelity in a relationthips is somehow relevant to videogames or ANYONE at all and it's honestly pretty sickening seeing so many jump on the "oh GG was just misunderstood, we're just asking questions guys" bandwagon.
Even if you ignore the sleeping around part which is a private matter it was still unethical to not establish their relationship. Like being friends, living in one house for a period of time etc.

And I will also say that Zoe was targeted so much not because she was a women but because she attacked as well. If you hit a hornets nest with a stick you should expect to be bitten. Again no excuse for the vile attacks but it is an explanation why she was targeted. And this is also what did change after gamergate. For example Giantbomb always establish their realtionship now when they talk about stuff related to friends. I think any big site has now disclaimer at the bottom of articles etc.

But yes Gamergate was so much more than just ethics in games journalism. It was an resistence against censorship, change in the indusrty through modern feminists bideologies etc. And I will be honest here. Zoe Quinn is a terrible person. The way she doxxed trans people from was pretty disgusting. Same with Alexander which acted very hipocritical even used the so evil n word in the past. And then there was WU which is just an absolute crazy person and not in a good way. Latest example Nolan Bushnell. I think we said way too much about Anita as well. All these people were never attacked for their gender.

To me Gamergate was in the end the consequence of gamers and journalists drifting more and more appart. The Zoe part was the last straw of something that existed a long time before. You could see the same right now with Movies (rotten Tomatoes critic and user scores with "controversial or movies with some highly progressive messages"
 
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KevinKeene

Banned
GG absolutely is about harassment. It is disappointing that you aren't willing to educate yourself on its origins.

Hey, if you want to start some kind of online movement against censorship or because you want objective reviews with no subjectivity or you don't want to see more inclusive games then all the power to you. You go make that group and tweet up a storm! But, maybe, don't tie yourself to a hashtag that started as a harassment campaign. It just invalidates anything you have to say. If you aren't a misogynistic asshole then why throw your hat into the ring with the misogynists? It just muddies your message.

You're talking about it was in the beginning. I'm talking about what it is now, what it has been for the past couple years. GG is not about harassment. Again,you probably should read this thread, as I'm only repeating myself here: I've been following one of the biggest GG communities for over a year, because I wanted to find out what it's really about. Turns out itls about the three points mentioned in the OP.

Nobody cares about Zoey at this point. GG is what it is now. And that's quite nice. More than anything elde, though, it's necessary. But today's GG doesn't condone harassment in any way. That's more of a thing for communities like resetera now.
 

Bryank75

Banned
If you think gamergate is or was ANYTHING other than a cheap attempt by some shitstains to harass female game developers then I have a bridge to sell you (or you're being intentionally disingenuous).

Yeah, some misguided people may have latched onto a hate campaign thinking it was about "ethics in games journalism" but it is so SO easy to just look at its origin of a guy being mad about Zoe Quinn and spreading easily debunked lies about how she sleeps around for good review scores or trying to say how her alleged infidelity in a relationthips is somehow relevant to videogames or ANYONE at all and it's honestly pretty sickening seeing so many jump on the "oh GG was just misunderstood, we're just asking questions guys" bandwagon.

Funny that none of the actually talented female developers like Amy Hennig, Siobhan Reddy, Shannon Studstill, Brenda Romero, Kellee Santiago or Kim Swift ever reported having major issues with bullying or harassment.

Also, for all the posturing the games media does...how many black people work at ign, kotaku or polygon? I never see any. More LA hot air? They really do believe they are morally superior, don't they!
 

Randomizer

Member
Doritogate was the fore-bearer of GamerGate. I think a lot of people forget that there were frustrations brewing about the ethical behaviour of certain game journalists. This was a year or two before GG was a thing. Journalists too close to games companies, mega corporation sponsorship and advertising. Hell it even goes back to Gerstmann-gate and I assume much further.

Unlike GamerGate those movements were started with good intentions and by games journalist themselves. It was truly about neopistism and lack objectitivty due to journalist being too close with developers and publisher’s PR teams. Being huge mega fans of the companies and games they are covering. Being all buddy-buddy with people whose products you are supposed to be critical of just doesn’t sit right. There’s all the free consoles, gifts and even special press packs just for them. It’s all comes across as a form of bribery and in accepting it your opinion should be invalidated. The problem is still very rampant in the industry, but Gamegate and all the alt-right types that it attracted have made a proper discussion of the subject impossible now. Critize developers or journalists for their ethics and you will be labelled as a “racist, sexist etc.” and the issue will never be addressed.

The same thing is happening in society. The so called “left” has been hijacked by identity politics and the biggest issue in the world, which IMO is income disparity is ignored. It can no longer be brought up with the fear of being labelled ‘privileged’, ‘color-blind’, ‘racist’ etc. Especially if you are a straight white male. Doesn’t matter that I came from an oppressed state and a working class background. The idea that I am more privileged than some middle class girl/black person is ludicrous. They would be giving opportunities that I will never be given. I had nothing growing up, no direction, no ambitions, no hope. I’ve been left with no self esteem and no belief in myself. Mental health problems are abundant in my community. The forgotten intelligent working class that has their potential taken from them because of social standing and available opportunity. Anyway this isn’t really revelant to the topic at hand. Sorry that I went off on a bit of tangent there. Something I’ve been dying to saying for a way that just hasn’t been spoken about much.
 
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Zomba13

Member
Even if you ignore the sleeping around part which is a private matter it was still unethical to not establish their relationship. Like being friends, living in one house for a period of time etc.

And I will also say that Zoe was targeted so much not because she was a women but because she attacked as well. If you hit a hornets nest with a stick you should expect to be bitten. Again no excuse for the vile attacks but it is an explanation why she was targeted. And this is also what did change after gamergate. For example Giantbomb always establish their realtionship now when they talk about stuff related to friends. IU think any big site has now disclaimer at the button of articles etc.

But yes Gamergate was so much more than just ethics in games journalism. It was an resistence against censorship, change in the indusrty through modern feminists bideologies etc. And I will be honest here. Zoe Quinn is a terrible person. The way she doxxed trans people from was pretty disgusting. Same with Alexander which acted very hipocritical even used the so evil n word in the past. And then there was WU which is just an absolute crazy person and not in a good way. Latest example Nolan Bushnell. I think we said way too much about Anita as well. All these people were never attacked for their gender.

To me Gamergate was in the end the consequence of gamers and journalists drifting more and more appart. The Zoe part was the last straw of something that existed a long time before. You could see the same right now with Movies (rotten Tomatoes critic and user scores with "controversial or movies with some highly progressive messages"
She or He didn't need to announce anything because HE DIDN'T REVIEW THE (100% FREE) GAME! And the woman deserves to be attacked because she fought back AFTER BEING ATTACKED? Damn woman, should've known her place and got back in the kitchen. The internet is for MEN!.

GB have ALWAYS established relationships way before GG was a thing. They had a HUGE feature on Bastion (from Supergiant Games, Greg Kasavin worked with them at Gamespot). Jeff Gerstman and the GB crew are professionals that always make things clear.

And I would looooooooove to see these instances of censorship because of feminism that you lot ALWAYS bring up but never give examples of.

And hating on Brianna Wu isn't really special. Yeah, she makes (made?) bad games and is now trying to run for office with no experience on the platform of people like you being mean to her. IF GG didn't target Wu she would've stayed as an obscure game dev who makes games with really ugly looking characters.

But yeah, ok, all these women weren't attacked for their gender, just ebcause they were sticking up for their gender. Feminist Frequency doesn't do anything to hurt you. You don't want to listen or see all the harmful and ugly tropes in videogames? Fine. You don't have to watch! I don't watch the Saw movies because I don't want to see torture porn! It's just that easy! Anita isn't trying to take away your games, she is just showing people who will watch examples of potentially problematic presentations of women in games, a mediium that is overwhelmingly male focused (either through protagonists or catering to the male gaze with things like DoA volleyball and various costumes, Senran Kagura or a variety of other games and characters).


None of these things require a hate campaign, none of these things require you to get mad at people who just want more representation or less sexism. If you want games to be taken seriously (which it seems you do if you want journalism to be conducted in a professional and fair manner) then you should be all for these sorts of things, regardless of if their are headed by a man or woman, white or black, trans or cis. It shouldn't matter! Games are for everyone so stop being jerks to people who are trying to push the medium forward! No one is going to take away your "Hatred"s or Duke Nukem's or Dead or Alive super mega tit bouncer XXX on Zack'; private island. All that will happen is maybe a game or two will come along with a black lead, or a female lead dressed conservatively. You can still buy and play all your favourites and those games sell too much to go anywhere.
 

Dunki

Member
She or He didn't need to announce anything because HE DIDN'T REVIEW THE (100% FREE) GAME! And the woman deserves to be attacked because she fought back AFTER BEING ATTACKED? Damn woman, should've known her place and got back in the kitchen. The internet is for MEN!.

GB have ALWAYS established relationships way before GG was a thing. They had a HUGE feature on Bastion (from Supergiant Games, Greg Kasavin worked with them at Gamespot). Jeff Gerstman and the GB crew are professionals that always make things clear.

And I would looooooooove to see these instances of censorship because of feminism that you lot ALWAYS bring up but never give examples of.

And hating on Brianna Wu isn't really special. Yeah, she makes (made?) bad games and is now trying to run for office with no experience on the platform of people like you being mean to her. IF GG didn't target Wu she would've stayed as an obscure game dev who makes games with really ugly looking characters.

But yeah, ok, all these women weren't attacked for their gender, just ebcause they were sticking up for their gender. Feminist Frequency doesn't do anything to hurt you. You don't want to listen or see all the harmful and ugly tropes in videogames? Fine. You don't have to watch! I don't watch the Saw movies because I don't want to see torture porn! It's just that easy! Anita isn't trying to take away your games, she is just showing people who will watch examples of potentially problematic presentations of women in games, a mediium that is overwhelmingly male focused (either through protagonists or catering to the male gaze with things like DoA volleyball and various costumes, Senran Kagura or a variety of other games and characters).


None of these things require a hate campaign, none of these things require you to get mad at people who just want more representation or less sexism. If you want games to be taken seriously (which it seems you do if you want journalism to be conducted in a professional and fair manner) then you should be all for these sorts of things, regardless of if their are headed by a man or woman, white or black, trans or cis. It shouldn't matter! Games are for everyone so stop being jerks to people who are trying to push the medium forward! No one is going to take away your "Hatred"s or Duke Nukem's or Dead or Alive super mega tit bouncer XXX on Zack'; private island. All that will happen is maybe a game or two will come along with a black lead, or a female lead dressed conservatively. You can still buy and play all your favourites and those games sell too much to go anywhere.
Yes if you write a article about a friend you should have established your relationship with this person. Thsi is what normal journalists do and what the so called ethics code says as well.

And I never said she deserved to be attacked. I saying that if you mess with 4chan and go you need to be prepared to get attacked. That is how reality is. And I will say that Zoe was also very agressive in this regard. Again no justification jsut an EXPLANATION.

I posted multiple articles. How journalists wanted to change games like Hotline Miami 2 or even Castlevania which was compared to rapley and all these followed modern feminist ideology. Also Dead or alive extreme was not coming out in the west because the developer feared backlash from these as well. And bad pr is not a good thing. When Japanese publisher like Marvelous are scared to release games here than I call this censorship. Same with Hatred people demanded to ban this fucking lame game which was not even good.

Modern Feminism does not represent women. Modern feminism represents itself and their ideology. There is a reason why less than 18% of people would consider themselfes a feminist. In the UK its even under 7%.. Also I loved how all women who supported gamergate were just dismissed as they would be not worth any opinion at all. Also what Anita did and what we established already many times: She lied, she had an tactic to spread her perosnal agenda into the gaming industry because it is the biggest form of entertainment. IT was a way for her to win this stupid culture war people like her are promoting.

And it really began to become a hate campaign after lies, after tha barrage of games journalists gamer are over articles. This is when it really escalated. And no one can tell me that these were just random articles totally not related to each other. You could even find private connections to the authors who wrote all these articles. You found out about a special journalist chat discussing these things. We got leaked logs from these in which they even discuss this shit openly. There are even connections to the so called clique the IGDA and so on. IT is way more complex than just a hte campaign. Gamergate found so many connections that they got more and more angry because everyone acted so innocently and like a victim.

And I will say it again: Anita knew exactly what she did and how she can get attention. Like it or not but she was a professional victim who used this tp push her agenda, to make over 500k in a year profit and so on. And when her second kickstarter did not work she pulled the harassment card again even everyone did not even paid attention to her anymore.

Also I loved the fact how I think last years E3 had 63% female leads and Anita was still angry about this.

End I will say it again. Just like the Left created the monster Milo, Gamergate in the end made Anita, Wu and co as big as they were back then.
 
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KevinKeene

Banned
She or He didn't need to announce anything because HE DIDN'T REVIEW THE (100% FREE) GAME! And the woman deserves to be attacked because she fought back AFTER BEING ATTACKED? Damn woman, should've known her place and got back in the kitchen. The internet is for MEN!.

GB have ALWAYS established relationships way before GG was a thing. They had a HUGE feature on Bastion (from Supergiant Games, Greg Kasavin worked with them at Gamespot). Jeff Gerstman and the GB crew are professionals that always make things clear.

And I would looooooooove to see these instances of censorship because of feminism that you lot ALWAYS bring up but never give examples of.

And hating on Brianna Wu isn't really special. Yeah, she makes (made?) bad games and is now trying to run for office with no experience on the platform of people like you being mean to her. IF GG didn't target Wu she would've stayed as an obscure game dev who makes games with really ugly looking characters.

But yeah, ok, all these women weren't attacked for their gender, just ebcause they were sticking up for their gender. Feminist Frequency doesn't do anything to hurt you. You don't want to listen or see all the harmful and ugly tropes in videogames? Fine. You don't have to watch! I don't watch the Saw movies because I don't want to see torture porn! It's just that easy! Anita isn't trying to take away your games, she is just showing people who will watch examples of potentially problematic presentations of women in games, a mediium that is overwhelmingly male focused (either through protagonists or catering to the male gaze with things like DoA volleyball and various costumes, Senran Kagura or a variety of other games and characters).


None of these things require a hate campaign, none of these things require you to get mad at people who just want more representation or less sexism. If you want games to be taken seriously (which it seems you do if you want journalism to be conducted in a professional and fair manner) then you should be all for these sorts of things, regardless of if their are headed by a man or woman, white or black, trans or cis. It shouldn't matter! Games are for everyone so stop being jerks to people who are trying to push the medium forward! No one is going to take away your "Hatred"s or Duke Nukem's or Dead or Alive super mega tit bouncer XXX on Zack'; private island. All that will happen is maybe a game or two will come along with a black lead, or a female lead dressed conservatively. You can still buy and play all your favourites and those games sell too much to go anywhere.

You should calm down a bit. Pretty much everything you wrote has already been adressed in this thread. But this statement is dishonest frog guano and you know it: 'Feminist Frequency doesn't do anything to hurt you'.

Except she was granted to spread her ill-informed, biased views in front of the !UN! .

She wasn't some small blog as you're painting her. She, unfortunately, had massive influence on the industry, on the whole discourse, and that DID hurt gamers.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
I mean it's an accumulation of things. It's not JUST that. Dude keeps posting that kind of material. And retweets a lot of far right figures on his Twitter like Devin McInnis, a guy who wants to close Canada's borders, women to return to their "tradional roles", and a guy who doesn't want advertising to show mixed races couples etc, etc. You know that guy who made Holocaust video that David Duke praised (so he cussed him out lol)

And that's just one guy he retweets. He's pretty deep in the far-right stuff, which is why IMO he's a shitheel.

But then again at the end of the day, he was right about his game's presentation of race. I never felt like there was any legit argument there, unless you want to argue with the professional historian they hired, which I assume knows a bit more than all of us about history.

Pretty far into the far-right stuff? I dug through two years of tweets from the dude because I was curious and I barely saw any mention of this far-right stuff and the few things he retweeted from politicians were pretty sane/tame. You do know you can follow and agree with specific points from a politician and disagree with others, right?

You make it sound like he is swimming in this far-right stuff, so I would assume you would be able to show/link said evidence to your claims.


The vast majority of your points have either been refuted or spoken about ad nauseum earlier in this thread. I will echo KevinKeene KevinKeene - go re-read the thread.
 
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