TheGraykid
Member
I think most people, including myself, have already expressed on numerous occasions that your participation is valued, if only for that fact that people agreeing with each other make for lousy discussions. You can't begrudge people for expressing their concerns on the qualitative nature of this discussion in order to construe it as an attack on yourself.
Everybody has already stated, on numerous occasions, that Anita's harassment was bad, revolting and unjustified. What people take issue with, is that you construe an appeal to emotion out of that concession in order to dismiss any other concern that people are raising. Here's why:
1. People are getting tired of constantly discussing Anita's importance when most of them have pretty much agreed that she was indeed very important in the context of GG. Furthermore, her degree of importance is in no way related to the validity of her claims. The people participating in this discussion have raised multiple concerns about her rhetoric, many of which are simply brushed aside because you keep falling back on her importance. Even if she were of no import in the greater scheme of things, it would not pertain to the qualitative nature of her arguments.
2. By that same measure, we could easily dismiss any criticism directed at Jordan Peterson (or any other person). Peterson knows that the threats he receives are from a militant minority of people that are in no way representative of all of his critics. He could easily appeal to people's emotions by constantly referring to the harassment he receives, in order to vilify his critics. He doesn't do that because he'd rather let his arguments stand on their own merit. You don't see him running around calling his numerous and very vocal critics "human garbage". I think it would be high time for Peterson's opposition to extend the same courtesy to those in support of him and stick to the arguments at hand in order to advance the discussion.
How is it that one set of people is constantly vilified through guilt by association, while another set of people gets away scot-free, despite also having a minority amidst their ranks that's engaging in the same crappy behavior? It's human nature, is what it is. People take umbrage to the fact that Anita is engaging in some kind of faulty generalization in order to shield herself from criticism. At best, she is lacking any kind of debating skills, at worst she has a shaky grasp on the terminology she is dealing in. The fact that she needs to read from a sheet of paper even when she is amidst the ranks of favorable fellow feminists certainly does not lend credence to her expertise. This is speculation of course, but I think party of why her appearances are so scripted is because she's cultivated a very fanatical fellowship that could easily turn on her for the slightest slippage of word.
Meanwhile you have someone like Peterson who's making the rounds despite a strong headwind, despite harassment and threats, freely debating the every living soul out of everybody no matter the odds. That is the sign of someone with true expertise and competence who truly believes in the validity of his cause. The determination to make sacrifice for something that you believe to be right is what separates the wheat from the chaff. Do you honestly think that the great thinkers of this world, who dared challenge the predominant worldview, never faced such strong opposition? In fact the vast majority of them were quite ill-fated and persecuted as wrong-thinkers and heretics, so so many of them. Now I'm not saying that Peterson is one of the greats, but he stands by the same principle, unlike Anita.
Your simple dismissal of these facts (which you seem to propagate in other topics too), not only does a great disservice to those who risked it all by sticking to their principles in order to bring humanity a little step forward, but also underlines your ignorance for the history of science and the scientific method. The scientific liberty of thought is a painful lesson from the past that you so easily dismiss by deeming certain ideas as 'too problematic'. Again, you are certainly free to express your criticism, just as well as I am able to express mine, but please do so by addressing the arguments at hand, instead of referring to your subjective experiences and feelings as an individual.
The difference between you and me is simple. While you seek to silence and deplatform any speaker that is subjectively deemed as 'hateful', I desperately want those who I disagree with to engage in any sort of public debate, so that we can address their arguments. The betterment of humanity happens through education and critical engagement, not through censorship, deplatforming and shaming. We've already tried that in the past and it didn't work out so well. So please do not consider this an attack on you as a person, I'm sure you mean well and want to do good, but as a well reasoned statement against your rhetoric. I have faith that well and openly educated students/gamers/people can deal with any sort of 'problematic content' in a reasonable manner, they don't need your or anybody else's moral guidance.
Nah, I just think there are people who say things which are of no consequence to their argument, don't add anything to the conversation, which are half-qualitative comments on another's arguments, and half-just being an asshole. "Now come back to me when you have a good Argument." is being an asshole. You can comment on other people's points without being an asshole. That's all I have to say.
"People take umbrage to the fact that Anita is engaging in some kind of faulty generalization in order to shield herself from criticism."
That's the thing, I think you're framing my conversation here as me using the harassment to dismiss her legitimate criticism. I.e. All the people who are critiquing her are harassers so why should she have to reply to them. Which isn't really my point. My position is very clearly that I disagree with her not addressing her criticism, but that I understand why she did it, and that along with some other reasons is why it doesn't bother me that much.
"Do you honestly think that the great thinkers of this world, who dared challenge the predominant worldview, never faced such strong opposition?" I've never once even hinted that I thought she was a great thinker so, I don't know what this argument is towards. Again, as I've said before, I disagree with what she did. I agree with what you're saying about great thinkers.
"The difference between you and me is simple. While you seek to silence and deplatform any speaker that is subjectively deemed as 'hateful', I desperately want those who I disagree with to engage in any sort of public debate, so that we can address their arguments."
First off, Misinterpreting me to give the impression that I support the most extreme version of my viewpoint feels more like a strawman than anything else. I've said multiple times that what I am arguing for is the ability for us to debate these issues in a open forum. Of course, the right to voice an opinion is not the right to dictate that opinion onto others. You can make whatever game you would like, and I can critique it in any way I would like.
It's you who's constantly advocated for critique that contain whatever you deem "leftist authoritarian" themes, to basically not exist because you don't view them as legitimate.
I'll finish with these thoughts. If we're having debates about how we should personally treat each other (in both our direct interactions and in our art) , how can we have these arguments without expressing and acknowledging how we make each other feel? Our personal morality of how we treat each other is almost entirely wrapped up in how we believe we are making others feel, and weighing that against our personal cost for placating others. Therefore our subjective experiences and personal emotions are of course relevant here.