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[Sunster]

When racism and misogyny become a thing of the very distant past, then we can cross that bridge of it being fine for men to say bitch and for white people to say nigga. Until then, it's a no go zone.

I don't know if NeoGAF will still be here in 100 years

when racism is a thing of the distant past all white people will know not to say that.

XBOX ONE X

True.

 

[moggio]

XBOX ONE X

The people cheering specs need to have a word with themselves.

 

[WiiredShawn]

When racism and misogyny become a thing of the very distant past, then we can cross that bridge of it being fine for men to say bitch and for white people to say nigga. Until then, it's a no go zone.

I don't know if NeoGAF will still be here in 100 years

I don't know. I feel like we're discounting the context of individual lives with that perspective. There are men who casually call their female friends "bitch" in a joking way and women who return the favor. I encountered a White guy and a Black guy walking through a grocery store together and casually calling the other person the n-word to get his attention, like it was the most natural thing in the world. Are we supposed to tell these people they can't use words in that way? That they're being "ignorant" in doing so?

Racism and misogyny continue to exist - but cakewalk became a metaphor that anyone can use, despite it describing a racist activity, and I could say the word "landica" right now with no one giving a damn, even though it was once a misogynistic insult in Latin.

My point is, it's not so simple as just "don't use those words ever" and it assumes that people are incapable of applying context, or that contexts can't shift. People are always going to be inventive with language and language is always going to resist individual desires to control it. I just think if we're going to have "teachable moments," we should be talking more about the social issues that are hurting people rather than spending a lot of energy on demarcating words' exclusivity.

I guess I just mean to say that I perceive Maher as wrong and Ice Cube as wrong, but for different reasons.

 

[The Kree]

when racism is a thing of the distant past all white people will know not to say that.



True.

They all already know not to say it. Some just don't give a fuck.

 

[Sunster]

They all already know not to say it. Some just don't give a fuck.

yea I should have said, they won't say it in such a future.

 

[roknin]

if you're white you really don't have any leverage to dictate to my black ass how I should and shouldn't be using it,

if you're black or NBPOC, mind your damn business about what the hell I be doing. I'm gonna use it and check Non black people who do. And that's just the rules.

This has always been my outlook on it.

Though I see now, we're gonna go down the "vilify Ice Cube" path. Twas only a matter of time, sadly.

 

[Extollere]

Just caught up on this, and SMH... Black people have to deal with being black in society every single day of their life, and there are still some other folks out there who are butt hurt that there is one word black people reserve the right to use at their discretion... That's always incredible to me. Maybe those guys should start calling themselves crackers instead.

 

[WiiredShawn]

Just caught up on this, and SMH... Black people have to deal with being black in society every single day of their life, and there are still some other folks out there who are butt hurt that there is one word black people reserve the right to use at their discretion... That's always incredible to me. Maybe those guys should start calling themselves crackers instead.

Yeah, practically speaking, it's not a big deal. It's a single word among thousands. Aside from racists being mad that they can't be racist, there's little that non-Black people are "missing out on" by just giving up "rights" to the word.

I just think it's hard to support, as a general societal principle, that one group should demand that another group be barred from using particular words. If we make that exception for one group, should we do the same for others? What's to stop some group from being contrarian and demanding that X or Y word be exclusive to them, and prohibited for others? Isn't that part of some heterosexual people's issue with gay marriage - that the word "marriage" belongs to them and shouldn't be accessible to the other group? (I realize this is simplifying the complicated institutional considerations behind marriage.)

It's the idea that "certain people aren't allowed to have access to certain things" that White men used to keep slaves from reading and writing, and women from voting. That was, obviously, a bad argument. We should just be mindful of applying the same logic in reverse.

 

[.JayZii]

Just say it, Bill, I'm sure Milo would.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Just caught up on this, and SMH... Black people have to deal with being black in society every single day of their life, and there are still some other folks out there who are butt hurt that there is one word black people reserve the right to use at their discretion... That's always incredible to me. Maybe those guys should start calling themselves crackers instead.

black people would have to make it cool first

 

[SomTervo]

i'm honestly shocked by how many people are actually doing the "if we aren't allowed to say it, they shouldn't be either" thing in here. that's some bottom of the barrel shit

Like, that argument makes sense if you see it like "it's a heinous word that was used in a heinous way for decades, it should be dropped like a hot turd"

But of course that's not how things are atm, and what the word means/represents has changed over time; the culture surrounding it has become a lot more nuanced

 

[Messofanego]

I don't know. I feel like we're discounting the context of individual lives with that perspective. There are men who casually call their female friends "bitch" in a joking way and women who return the favor. I encountered a White guy and a Black guy walking through a grocery store together and casually calling the other person the n-word to get his attention, like it was the most natural thing in the world. Are we supposed to tell these people they can't use words in that way? That they're being "ignorant" in doing so?

Racism and misogyny continue to exist - but cakewalk became a metaphor that anyone can use, despite it describing a racist activity, and I could say the word "landica" right now with no one giving a damn, even though it was once a misogynistic insult in Latin.

My point is, it's not so simple as just "don't use those words ever" and it assumes that people are incapable of applying context, or that contexts can't shift. People are always going to be inventive with language and language is always going to resist individual desires to control it. I just think if we're going to have "teachable moments," we should be talking more about the social issues that are hurting people rather than spending a lot of energy on demarcating words' exclusivity.

I guess I just mean to say that I perceive Maher as wrong and Ice Cube as wrong, but for different reasons.

If there's footage of this anecdote you're using of a white dude saying nigga in a grocery store, and he catches shit for it when it goes viral, don't be surprised or disappointed that the one token black dude isn't enough to save his white ass.

You can't just trust white people right now to use the n word with proper context and nuance. Intentions count for little, sorry.

 

[D i Z]

Link to the Oprah interview/news of him stepping up?

You know, I actually can't find anything beyond there being a long standing feud. My memory of it was very specific because I know I made a point to watch him answering questions. Maybe It was some other black female talk show host that I'm thinking of.

 

[MazeHaze]

I encountered a White guy and a Black guy walking through a grocery store together and casually calling the other person the n-word to get his attention, like it was the most natural thing in the world. Are we supposed to tell these people they can't use words in that way? That they're being "ignorant" in doing so?

yes, they are being ignorant.

And you keep bringing up cakewalk, but there's a HUGE difference between a word that describes a racist activity, and a slur that is used to demean and dehumanize an entire culture, that has been reclaimed by said group.

White people shouldn't use the N word. Period. You're literally on NeoGaf arguing that white people should be allowed to say the N word.

Language does change, but in America, slavery will always be a huge part of black history and the N word isn't going anywhere.

 

[Lothar]

Because mahers joke happened this week(2017), and the piece from cube happened in the 90's?

wtf

This piece is being rereleased now (2017), Cube is validating it by promoting it, they're both 2017.

 

[Pandaman]

This has always been my outlook on it.

Though I see now, we're gonna go down the "vilify Ice Cube" path. Twas only a matter of time, sadly.

Cube being a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong it just makes him an asshole. You don't need to defend him.

 

[4 is a cutie]

You know, I actually can't find anything beyond there being a long standing feud. My memory of it was very specific because I know I made a point to watch him answering questions. Maybe It was some other black female talk show host that I'm thinking of.

Maybe Latifah's show? I was curious in the first place because yeah I remember their beef lol

 

[Extollere]

Yeah, practically speaking, it's not a big deal. It's a single word among thousands. Aside from racists being mad that they can't be racist, there's little that non-Black people are "missing out on" by just giving up "rights" to the word.

I just think it's hard to support, as a general societal principle, that one group should demand that another group be barred from using particular words. If we make that exception for one group, should we do the same for others? What's to stop some group from being contrarian and demanding that X or Y word be exclusive to them, and prohibited for others? Isn't that part of some heterosexual people's issue with gay marriage - that the word "marriage" belongs to them and shouldn't be accessible to the other group? (I realize this is simplifying the complicated institutional considerations behind marriage.)

It's the idea that "certain people aren't allowed to have access to certain things" that White men used to keep slaves from reading and writing, and women from voting. That was, obviously, a bad argument. We should just be mindful of applying the same logic in reverse.

No. Fuck no. I understand what you're saying and all, but I think this is pretty cut and dry. I'm white as fuck, but even I understand the importance of the context of words and the history of their use.

The religious hetero fight to reserve the use of the word "marriage" is not analogous at all. For starters hetero couples are not discriminated against or looked down upon. There is no history of hetero couples being oppressed or having the word "marriage" used against them in a derogatory fashion. And even if it were, marriage is historically a choice among the privileged. Being a minority is not. Extending the right to marry (or to call it "marriage") to other groups does not impinge or invalidate the rights of the majority. Again it isn't about preserving anything, as much as it is about telling others where their rights begin and end.

This is why making a legal status or the rights of a majority group contingent with another group's inequality or inability to do the same is often seen as hate. It comes from the same privileged group of people who would rather minorities not have a word unless they can use it as well - disregarding the fact that they invented the word to hate and oppress. A minority reclaiming what was previously a derogatory word and using it as a term of endearment does not oppress anyone - it simply makes them jealous that a previously subjected group has an inch of freedom they do not. Same way it makes them jealous that the less privileged are being seen as equals more and more in today's society. Remembering that many minorities still suffer from hate, prejudice and fewer opportunities in life makes this jealousy all the more ridiculous.

 

[BlazinSkatinAxel]

Just caught up on this, and SMH... Black people have to deal with being black in society every single day of their life, and there are still some other folks out there who are butt hurt that there is one word black people reserve the right to use at their discretion... That's always incredible to me. Maybe those guys should start calling themselves crackers instead.

That's how the word "cracker" was started. Whip cracker.


Cracker will never be on the level as nig especially since places like Cracker Barrel exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker_Barrel

 

[The Lamonster]

Nobody should be using that word. Doesn't matter if it's your homie or some guy on TV.

 

[Extollere]

Nobody should be using that word. Doesn't matter if it's your homie or some guy on TV.

That's not up to you though. It's not up to me either. Members of minority groups should always be allowed to use words that effect them however they want. Maybe some are okay with it, and some aren't. But that's up to those individuals - not for any one person to decide.

Also, bear in mind that the negative connotations with that word don't come from black people. They come from white people. Saying it should never be used when it isn't used as a negative way by the community is just another way of saying "white people just can't control themselves, so others should suffer the same consequences".

Also to anyone saying "as long as black people keep using it there will always be problems"... consider that they can't wield power with that word the same way white people can. It is literally a weapon in our hands, which is why we probably shouldn't be using it even in joking. The problems with the word go away when we stop using it. I honestly don't understand why this is so hard for some people to grasp.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

When I was a teenager, I used the word with my friends because I knew no better.

Years later, I decided that I would only use it when quoting someone.

Now, I don't like to use it at all and completely avoid even referencing it. I'll opt for "n-word."

That video really put things into perspective better than the one I already had, and I thought by my own standards that I had matured quite a bit. I had never heard it described in such a way where it feels like "a knife stabbing you in the back." How can non-black people want to say it then if this is what it feels like for black people? That's absolutely awful.

I do have a question: I also don't like to be called it by peers, so what's the best way to tell them to stop? "Stop?" Is that it? I vaguely recall someone getting upset at me years ago when I told them to stop.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I do have a question: I also don't like to be called it by peers, so what's the best way to tell them to stop? "Stop?" Is that it? I vaguely recall someone getting upset at me years ago when I told them to stop.

If someone were to heavily insist on using the word after you ask them not to use it, they are probably beyond saving.

 

[black_13]

Couldn't agree more with Ice Cube. I agree with alot of his political viewpoints and I'm glad someone went on Mahers show to tell him that he often steps out of line and thinks he can away with it just cause he calls his show a comedic one when it's more political than anything else.

 

[old manatee]

Couldn't agree more with Ice Cube. I agree with alot of his political viewpoints and I'm glad someone went on Mahers show to tell him that he often steps out of line and thinks he can away with it just cause he calls his show a comedic one when it's more political than anything else.

Bill Maher laughs harder at his jokes than anyone else.

 

[The Lamonster]

That's not up to you though. It's not up to me either. Members of minority groups should always be allowed to use words that effect them however they want. Maybe some are okay with it, and some aren't. But that's up to those individuals - not for any one person to decide.

Also, bear in mind that the negative connotations with that word don't come from black people. They come from white people. Saying it should never be used when it isn't used as a negative way by the community is just another way of saying "white people just can't control themselves, so others should suffer the same consequences".

Also to anyone saying "as long as black people keep using it there will always be problems"... consider that they can't wield power with that word the same way white people can. It is literally a weapon in our hands, which is why we probably shouldn't be using it even in joking. The problems with the word go away when we stop using it. I honestly don't understand why this is so hard for some people to grasp.

All fair points, but in 2017 it's hard to differentiate the source of the message. What if someone casually used the word here on NeoGAF? Would you dive into their post history and play detective to figure out the member's race before you decide whether or not you're offended by it?

Personally, I'd put them on ignore and move on. Not my job to figure out your race if you're the one using the offending word.

 

[Vicetrailia]

All fair points, but in 2017 it's hard to differentiate the source of the message. What if someone casually used the word here on NeoGAF? Would you dive into their post history and play detective to figure out the member's race before you decide whether or not you're offended by it?

Personally, I'd put them on ignore and move on. Not my job to figure out your race if you're the one using the offending word.

It's ain't hard to tell, honestly.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

Just caught up on this, and SMH... Black people have to deal with being black in society every single day of their life, and there are still some other folks out there who are butt hurt that there is one word black people reserve the right to use at their discretion... That's always incredible to me. Maybe those guys should start calling themselves crackers instead.

LMAO. If cracker ever became a term of endearment amongst Whites, I'd feel like I'd somehow warped into an alternative timeline. Eminem should have tried to make this a thing 20 years ago.

 

[Extollere]

All fair points, but in 2017 it's hard to differentiate the source of the message. What if someone casually used the word here on NeoGAF? Would you dive into their post history and play detective to figure out the member's race before you decide whether or not you're offended by it?

No, because I just assume they are most likely black or bi-racial and move on. I also don't care. I'm just stating what I thought was obvious, and already established. I'm personally not offended by white people casually dropping the n-word I just find it really cringey (I'm not the one who should be offended anyways). I don't care what people do or say online. If they break the ToS or piss off other members for acting like an ass then it's on them when they get banned.

 

[PeteZaTheHutt]

Well you've really missed the point.

I don't know if you're black or white but whenever I see that viewpoint I read it as "well if white people can't say it, nobody can"

I personally don't know if t_d really means that nobody "can", but I personally believe that nobody SHOULD.

He literally says that when his 'homie' says it, it doesn't feel bad, only when someone white says it.

As a black man, I hate that view point, because normalizing that nonsense only allows it to linger around, along with all the baggage it brings. I used to throw it around alot when I was younger. Getting older gave me more of an appreciation of what that word means and the history it brings with it.

It's a racial slur, no matter what color your skin is.

I agree with you here. I consider this to be the most horrible word in the English language. I never actually say the word out loud, even to my wife. Instead, I say "the n-word", and even that makes me want to puke. Why anyone would want to ever use this word in such a cavalier manner is incredibly baffling to me.

Oh my head hurts.

The whole point is reclaim this word that was ounce used to insult us and put us down.We took that power away.

As some other poster here has already mentioned, this power has not been taken away unfortunately. I fully understand the desire to take it away and to reclaim that word. That would be an ideal outcome, but I don't believe that it is realistic. If such an outcome did actually occur, the word would ultimately still be around. Does anybody really want to immortalize this word? I believe that just not saying the word at all would accomplish so much more.

When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, I quickly learned that the n-word was a terrible word. Ironically, back then I rarely heard that word at all. Nowadays, this so-called effort to reclaim the word has resulted in its frequent use in music, movies, television and other media. Ironically, the word is used even MORE than it ever has been, even to the point where it is used as a personal affectation between friends.

If black people want white people to respect that word, I do not believe that casually using the word in such a normalized manner is going to accomplish that goal at all. There are many, many, MANY more words that can be used in the place of the n-word. Despite all of these choices, people still actively choose to use the most horrible word in the English language. On Purpose. The word will never go away if you keep using it, no matter WHO uses it.

… It’s not cool because when I hear my homie say it, it don’t feel like venom. When I hear a white person say it, it feel like that knife stabbing you, even if they don’t mean to.

So if the word feels like a knife stabbing you, even if the person saying it is well-meaning and oblivious to its connotations, why exactly would you want it around at all? Bottom line is that it's a disgusting and terrible word. I will never understand why anyone would ever want to keep it around at all, let alone actually making it more and more ubiquitous.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

LMAO. If cracker ever became a term of endearment amongst Whites, I'd feel like I'd somehow warped into an alternative timeline. Eminem should have tried to make this a thing 20 years ago.

*cracka

Lol.

 

[chadtwo]

Maher took Ice Cube's comments like a petulant child and didn't even have the good sense to swallow his pride and not get all defensive. It just makes the sincerity of his apology look even more dubious.

 

[David Ricardo]

So if the word feels like a knife stabbing you, even if the person saying it is well-meaning and oblivious to its connotations, why exactly would you want it around at all? Bottom line is that it's a disgusting and terrible word. I will never understand why anyone would ever want to keep it around at all, let alone actually making it more and more ubiquitous.

This.

That word just reminds everybody forever that we are not the same. And using it constantly in TV shows, movies and music is making a lot of people around the world start to say it. So there is a knife that only hurts black people, and black people are promoting it's use all around the world. I don't get it.

 

[comedian]

Saying that a word can't be said is giving it too much power.

If I called a black man a cotton picking slave, would they be less or more offended than if I called them a nigger ? Both are awful, racist things to say, and I would never call someone either. I'm just not sure why one term should be banned and not the other.

 

[MrToughPants]

LMAO. If cracker ever became a term of endearment amongst Whites, I'd feel like I'd somehow warped into an alternative timeline. Eminem should have tried to make this a thing 20 years ago.

Sup my caucasian.

 

[MastAndo]

Out of curiosity - in the eyes of a black person, what's the end game of getting race relations where we need them to be? Everyone living harmoniously without judgement/oppression/inequality, I would imagine, but do things like "we can say/do that, but you can't" still exist?

 

[Tcab96]

LMAO. If cracker ever became a term of endearment amongst Whites, I'd feel like I'd somehow warped into an alternative timeline. Eminem should have tried to make this a thing 20 years ago.

"Wassup my cracka" does seem to roll off the tongue pretty well. I say white people should do it.

 

[Extollere]

LMAO. If cracker ever became a term of endearment amongst Whites, I'd feel like I'd somehow warped into an alternative timeline. Eminem should have tried to make this a thing 20 years ago.

Haha... The thing is, white people have never needed a term of endearment for each other because we've never felt the need to culturally identify with each other to get through life. You take a minority group, enslave them, segregate them, criminalize them, and marginalize them in society... and of course they are going identify with each other based around common experiences... Words help facilitate this and can bond people with their meaning and intent. That's why context matters. That's why who says it matters.

White people having a term of endearment just reeks of "if you can do it we can too!" completely disregarding the whole precedent around it. But who knows what kids growing up today think. Ice Cube could be an old man yelling at clouds to them... which is gonna make the future weird.

 

[riotous]

Anyone else ever experienced n-trapment?

It's when a black person asks a white person "Am I your n-word?"

 

[PixelatedBookake]

Just out of respect for the black community and all we've been through as a collective group through out history, non-white people shouldn't say it. That's really all it takes.

 

[Jumeira]

Fuck The Maher

 

[Darknight]

Just out of respect for the black community and all we've been through as a collective group through out history, non-white people shouldn't say it. That's really all it takes.

Well said. That should go to online forums as well.

 

[MastAndo]

Just out of respect for the black community and all we've been through as a collective group through out history, non-white people shouldn't say it. That's really all it takes.

I've been in the melting pot of NYC all my life, and now in my 30's, I'm pretty shocked by how liberally non-black kids now use the word. Taking the train every day, I've overheard kids (Latino) as young as preteen just using it in casual conversation, and it's not exactly super rare. I feel like it wasn't too long ago that this wasn't the case. Is there an N-word pass going around that I don't know about?

 

[isamu]

Not to mention that the song "black korea" was also on that album lol

If you guys think some of the songs/lyrics on Death Certificate are offensive or controversial, I'd strongly advise against listening to his follow up album The Predator lol.