mansoor1980
Gold Member
really good video by alex
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13 Ways To End Lousy PC Ports in 2023-DF video
- Thread starter mansoor1980
- Start date
really good video by alex
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
The idea that DF who are not developers are trying to tell developers how not to make poor PC ports is exactly the kind of towering hubris that turns me off from DF.
By all means, opine on whether dynamic resolution scaling is being used in a game or not based on your analysis. But STFU trying to tell devs (who know far more than you) how to do their jobs.
By all means, opine on whether dynamic resolution scaling is being used in a game or not based on your analysis. But STFU trying to tell devs (who know far more than you) how to do their jobs.
clampzyn
Member
he is basically asking for the impossible
Lucifers Beard
Member
Alex doing gods work here. Great video and if all developers did this, I’d always buy the PC version of a game.
phaedrus
Member
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Kuranghi
Member
Yes, its annoying these things happen but its funny not to realise the reasons for the problems, thinking the devs are just dullards who didn't consider these things. Sometimes glaring/obvious problems are caused mostly because the devs are working with new concepts, like HDR, so they make mistakes while still learning or have a poor workflow that gives a subpar/broken output, even though they weren't super rushed to finish it.
Mostly though I'd say these problems are caused by just not having enough time and having to stop when its good enough for the majority*. Most people don't notice momentary stutters on care about it, or they are playing at lower resolutions and higher framerates where its less noticeable a stutter (I still think its awful no matter the target framerate to have erratic frametimes, but many monitor users have had VRR for years) or the overhead lessens the issue a lot.
Its similar in the TV enthusiast world, most of them are morons who know very little and say things like:
"Why don't they just add X, Y and Z HW/SW features so that the product has no downsides! Its so easy and they keep fucking up on this!"
You think the companies don't have some of the best people in the field working for them doing product design/R&D?! Choices must be made and the designers are beholden to many other parts of the business who dictate what they can do in a given time frame and what their options are in general.
* Its what you know that determines when you think something is up to a certain standard, an example is HDR support in games, Alex and most of DF don't really know anything about HDR or how an output/image should look (within reason, obviously people make artistic choices, but I mean when compared to the SDR the HDR is worse in more ways than its better) so they will lambast devs for all these stuttering issues (that I personally also hate, I can't unsee stutters nowadays, its annoying to say the least) but say "yeah the HDR seemed fine to me" and I boot it up and its clear before you hit the main menu its mostly fucked.
Like Callisto Protocol, people saying "Oh yeah it has black level raise but the highlights look great so I wouldn't play in SDR!" Its a flipping extremely dark horror game so that means 90% of scenes have massively reduced contrast and give additional issues on the TV type most people have (LCD) on top of it looking worse than SDR.
Mostly though I'd say these problems are caused by just not having enough time and having to stop when its good enough for the majority*. Most people don't notice momentary stutters on care about it, or they are playing at lower resolutions and higher framerates where its less noticeable a stutter (I still think its awful no matter the target framerate to have erratic frametimes, but many monitor users have had VRR for years) or the overhead lessens the issue a lot.
Its similar in the TV enthusiast world, most of them are morons who know very little and say things like:
"Why don't they just add X, Y and Z HW/SW features so that the product has no downsides! Its so easy and they keep fucking up on this!"
You think the companies don't have some of the best people in the field working for them doing product design/R&D?! Choices must be made and the designers are beholden to many other parts of the business who dictate what they can do in a given time frame and what their options are in general.
* Its what you know that determines when you think something is up to a certain standard, an example is HDR support in games, Alex and most of DF don't really know anything about HDR or how an output/image should look (within reason, obviously people make artistic choices, but I mean when compared to the SDR the HDR is worse in more ways than its better) so they will lambast devs for all these stuttering issues (that I personally also hate, I can't unsee stutters nowadays, its annoying to say the least) but say "yeah the HDR seemed fine to me" and I boot it up and its clear before you hit the main menu its mostly fucked.
Like Callisto Protocol, people saying "Oh yeah it has black level raise but the highlights look great so I wouldn't play in SDR!" Its a flipping extremely dark horror game so that means 90% of scenes have massively reduced contrast and give additional issues on the TV type most people have (LCD) on top of it looking worse than SDR.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
"Same level of support as console versions."
Alex, are you fucking high? Consider the amount of time and effort required to QA all these options, versus the limited scope of console builds... its night and day.
Pretty sure a lot of engine and graphics coders are looking at this and thinking] "Sure, we can do all that given time" But who's going to pay for it?
Its all very well exposing features, but it needs to be understood that everything exposed also needs to work!
Alex, are you fucking high? Consider the amount of time and effort required to QA all these options, versus the limited scope of console builds... its night and day.
Pretty sure a lot of engine and graphics coders are looking at this and thinking] "Sure, we can do all that given time" But who's going to pay for it?
Its all very well exposing features, but it needs to be understood that everything exposed also needs to work!
Benniewise de Clown
Banned
Must be frustrating for Mr. Discord.
Kuranghi
Member
I don't think its primarily mouse accerlation causing the problem but I was replaying Dead Space 1 on PC and both the mouse and controller support is completely flonked. I was playing on controller anyway but fixing it was a path of pain, I had to use an external input mapper to apply a negative deadzone to the sticks. I think you can't even properly fix the mouse fully.
clampzyn
Member
Agree, that's why consoles will always be the easiest platform to develop games except it also has nasty ports but I wish developers already let this gen consoles to choose what resolution and fps cap we want to play with, coz I think even casual gamers today know what resolution and fps is in todays standard. Just make one graphics setting instead of performance/quality mode and let the user decide which resolution and fps they want to play.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Stutters in Callisto Protocol and Gotham Knights were too massive to not be noticed.
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Kuranghi
Member
Agreed, that was a shitshow and wouldn't fall under just running out of time, that should've been dealt with pre-launch.
winjer
Gold Member
try this mod:
Dead Space Mouse Fix
What is this? This fix makes Dead Space use raw mouse input without any additional smoothing or acceleration. It works with VSync and high frame rates and is easy to install without having to fiddle around with FPS limiters or config files. Overview Description The mouse controls in Dead Space ar...
community.pcgamingwiki.com
Kuranghi
Member
Imagine all games that come out after this video have zero problems and they're a bit disappointed:
"Its another perfect port...*long sigh*..."
GreatnessRD
Member
I ain't mad at this list.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Same level of support lmao this guy is an idiot. Maybe stop grifting and go join the dev community, see if you grow up.
Reizo Ryuu
Gold Member
I'm not even gonna watch this obviously roll eyes video; armchair developer youtuber clown ass.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
At the rate things are going, I'm starting to worry about console versions as well. Once upon a time, you could buy them feeling safe that they would be polished but even Elden Ring ran like shit on consoles and the best way to play for the first week was the PS4 version running on PS5. Xbox version was terrible and I had to postpone my PC playthrough until they released a patch a week after release that diminished the massive stutters.
Then there is Gotham Knights which is shit on all platforms (dunno if this was fixed). Witcher 3 with ray tracing is pretty much unplayable on consoles and unless you got a monster rig with frame generation to bypass the CPU bottleneck, you're also out of luck on PC. Callisto Protocol was downright missing graphical effects on Xbox and the dev was painfully aware.
This is ignoring all the garbage before. For the most part, consoles are fine (especially first-party games) but things are quickly going downhill.
Then there is Gotham Knights which is shit on all platforms (dunno if this was fixed). Witcher 3 with ray tracing is pretty much unplayable on consoles and unless you got a monster rig with frame generation to bypass the CPU bottleneck, you're also out of luck on PC. Callisto Protocol was downright missing graphical effects on Xbox and the dev was painfully aware.
This is ignoring all the garbage before. For the most part, consoles are fine (especially first-party games) but things are quickly going downhill.
HTK
Banned
Proceeds to use examples from PlayStation exclusives, kind of funny that PS PC ports are examples to follow for PC ports. Also he says include a console quality on PC like God of War, then says normally when he optimizes PC game settings they are usually pretty close to console versions. Just get a console already and avoid all of these pitfalls.
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.Pennywise
Banned
Are there that much bad PC ports still? Leaving Japanese devs that still live in '90s out of the ecuation.
Most games are done with UE5 and some in Unity.
A handful are done in propietary in-house engines.
Meaning all of these are PC-ready from the get go.
And even games that are made first and foremost for console get good ports with entire companies just dedicated to do proper ports (Sony 1st party games).
Most games are done with UE5 and some in Unity.
A handful are done in propietary in-house engines.
Meaning all of these are PC-ready from the get go.
And even games that are made first and foremost for console get good ports with entire companies just dedicated to do proper ports (Sony 1st party games).
Not sure why there's complaining about this video. More options is always better.
This doesn't mean devs MUST implement these settings (apart from shader caching) or else, but it gives a nice overview for devs on what PC users look for in a PC port.
For instance, everytime I install a PC game I check https://www.pcgamingwiki.com religiously, because it archives neatly all the downsides and solutions to fix issue or find workarounds for 99% of all games. Would love to never do that anymore in the future.
Also, what I've noticed is that we've come a long way when it comes since the days of GTA IV or RE4 PC port catastrophes. PC settings and optimization have come a long way since then. You have to appreciate this progress, but this can always be better (especially when it comes to shader stutter).
This doesn't mean devs MUST implement these settings (apart from shader caching) or else, but it gives a nice overview for devs on what PC users look for in a PC port.
For instance, everytime I install a PC game I check https://www.pcgamingwiki.com religiously, because it archives neatly all the downsides and solutions to fix issue or find workarounds for 99% of all games. Would love to never do that anymore in the future.
Also, what I've noticed is that we've come a long way when it comes since the days of GTA IV or RE4 PC port catastrophes. PC settings and optimization have come a long way since then. You have to appreciate this progress, but this can always be better (especially when it comes to shader stutter).
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
yeah and he owns a pc porting company now. guy is a legend.
Bulletbrain
Member
Don't understand this attitude. PC gaming is facing a lot of challenges lately leading to a bunch of technically hamstrung releases. Clearly the state of PC games are not where it should be. Everyone with a ounce of clout SHOULD be calling these issues out. It is absolutely needed for PC gaming to get back on track.
hinch7
Member
Pretty much. Its telling when a person spends thousands on PC hardware and still gets a worse experience than playing on a few/couple hundred dollar console. And requires major updates after launch.
Crap optimation and lack of care is an issue for PC games today. And the more exposure this gets, the better.
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T4keD0wN
Member
I am sure most devs would like to do these things, but the management has no reason to care since you have to buy their products first in order to find out that they are faulty at which point they had already won as most reviewers only play the console versions. They get a better ROI if they order the devs to work on making a nice fake E3 demo or make the game look pretty in screenshots than waste time making a good product. Good products dont sell, marketing does. Most people wont refund and the fanboys will defend technical issues or pretend they dont exist for free which is better than spending money on fixing the problems.
They should also make a japanese version of this video for it to have more effect.
I bet 9 wont happen, amd and nvidia sponsored titles have to make people want to upgrade somehow, poorly optimized games that use 10% of my cpu will make me want to buy a dlss3 card, i am surprised they dont do any shadier deals.
They should also make a japanese version of this video for it to have more effect.
I bet 9 wont happen, amd and nvidia sponsored titles have to make people want to upgrade somehow, poorly optimized games that use 10% of my cpu will make me want to buy a dlss3 card, i am surprised they dont do any shadier deals.
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U n i o n 0015
Member
Surprised that so many folks in this thread are defending the deluge of crap PC ports we've gotten lately.
These are best practices, it'd be nice to see devs follow-them. Alex and John clearly understand the engines and dev pipeline. What they probably don't understand is the business workflow and decisions that drive these crappy releases. But the devs and QA know what is garbage because they play it every day, and yet they still release it expecting people to pay money for it. Calling them out and recommending some approaches is completely valid.
OsirisBlack
Banned
So I just watched this entire video, I hope he knows that his wishlist is a pipe dream. What he is asking for are all settings all the time and console specific settings on PC. ….. it ain’t gonna happen. Devs are pushed to the limit and forced to work under hard deadlines already without adding another 50 settings for variable hardware. Maybe he should just start playing on consoles.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
I don't disagree with a single thing you said. But nothing you said is a counter-argument to anything I said.
I wasn't criticizing DF for calling out issues in PC games.
I was criticizing them for trying to tell devs how to fix it as if developers themselves don't already know what to do.
There are many reasons why video games, and by extension software projects in general, launch with performance issues and bugs. In the majority of cases, it has everything to do with time and resource constraints and nothing to do with a lack of competence on the part of the professional software developer.
DF's video arrogantly frames the problem as a lack of developer competence, which is fucking crazy and bewilderingly condescending toward developers.
Whitecrow
Banned
Unlike what you think, some devs are out of touch or have no care for details. Is not all about knowledge.
The bit about GEARS 5 and the explicit component impact for each graphical change was right on. Before I really bothered with PC gaming I only ever tried to lower resolution to improve performance and probably passed on playing a lot of games on PC because I couldn't get the game to run well.
. . .like, you're not doing this for all game, but if you know your game is a graphical powerhouse - this should be standard.
. . .like, you're not doing this for all game, but if you know your game is a graphical powerhouse - this should be standard.
T4keD0wN
Member
Luckily the bad reviews for Callisto Protocol have seemingly lead to them fixing the stutters. I dont buy them saying it was one wrong file because it took them 3 patches (~2weeks) to fix it.
If only would most bad ports receive enough backlash to force the company to fix these issues. Looks like thats the only way for this stuff to ever get fixed.
Senua
Member
Yea never judge anything unless you can do better yourself right!! My car constantly breaks down but i couldnt build a better one so i better stfu right and take it up the rear quarters? Great logic indeed
Skifi28
Member
Yep, that is exactly what I'm saying. Very good example by the way, helps the point come across.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
No... you're entirely wrong.
Those devs you speak of far more likely don't have the time or resources available on a given project to test and optimize all these various configurations and settings that this DF nut is asking for.
You're making the exact same mistake as this DF goon, thinking the problem is "hurr durr, lazy devs" when the opposite is true.
What a patently absurd analogy.
Your car is either constantly breaking down because:
- It's well over the mileage that the manufacturer guarantees performance for - in which case it's End of Life and any complaints about the design are invalid because it's got nothing to do with the design
- Or it's a result of a manufacturing defect that your warranty would cover - in which case, again it's not the fault of the designer, rather the manufacturer, and they remedy this with your warranty.
In the case of PC ports of video games. DF goons shouldn't be trying to tell devs what to do when they have no concept of what is causing the issues seen in current PC ports in the first place. DF may have some knowledge of the technical solutions, but knowing what the technical solution is, is a very different thing from knowing the practical feasibility of implementing a technical solution. In the real world, when working on real game projects, to real project deadlines, the latter aspect, i.e. knowing the practical feasibility of implementing a technical solution, is infinitely more important than the former.
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SmokedMeat
Gamer™
I’m glad someone’s telling AAA developers about their shit ports.
stranno
Member
To be honest, the lousiest port nowdays is infinite better than PC ports back in 80s, 90s and 00s.
Amazingly low quality ports like Spider-Man 2 (probably the biggest insult to PC players I've ever seen), 007 Nightfire or Just Cause. I can excuse things like 80s-early 90s racing or fighting ports, since PCs back then were not specially suitable for any kind of graphical effect. But zero excuse in the late 90s or early 00s.
Pretty much all PC ports of late 90s were the C++ code of Playstation ported as is to Windows, with the inaccurate geometry. Games like Army Men: Air Attack, A Bugs Life or Micro Machines V3 (Turbo 64) are much better on Nintendo 64 since Windows version are just crappy PSX versions.
Amazingly low quality ports like Spider-Man 2 (probably the biggest insult to PC players I've ever seen), 007 Nightfire or Just Cause. I can excuse things like 80s-early 90s racing or fighting ports, since PCs back then were not specially suitable for any kind of graphical effect. But zero excuse in the late 90s or early 00s.
Pretty much all PC ports of late 90s were the C++ code of Playstation ported as is to Windows, with the inaccurate geometry. Games like Army Men: Air Attack, A Bugs Life or Micro Machines V3 (Turbo 64) are much better on Nintendo 64 since Windows version are just crappy PSX versions.
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