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[malboroking]

Your saying the 360 didn't make money. From financial documents posted by microsoft, if you were to seperate the xbox, from the entertainment division, it made a lot of money.

I didn't say that didn't make money, but no they did not make "a lot of money". Look at the chart, add up all the years where they made a loss with the years they made a profit on the 360, and it comes up in a near wash, ESPECIALLY compared to their other divisions.

 

[Tyrax]

I'm not saying that 2006 Sony is "innocent" but they were the ones fooled by nvidia in the first place

I really hope the theme song for 2013 Sony Defense Force is:
The Who - We won't get fooled again

 

[malboroking]

I really hope the theme song for 2013 Sony Defense Force is:
The Who - We won't get fooled again

Except that the exact specs for the PS4 Gpu has been revealed, and using the same calculation that is used to generate the power of any other video card on the market show that the ps4 has a 1.8 TFlop Gpu. What's so hard to understand about this?

 

[Prelude.]

I really hope the theme song for 2013 Sony Defense Force is:
The Who - We won't get fooled again

I'm not defending anyone, they're facts.
If you think Ms is to be trusted more than Sony, well, you have pretty weird standards.

But you're using the "it's gonna be like this gen, architectures don't matter" argument so I'm pretty sure you're far from being familiar with these things.

 

[mangochutney]

I think its obvious that the PS4 GPU is more powerful than the XB1 based on the hardware specs, but I do not trust their TFLOPS claims. They lied to us about about the PS3 GPU with manufactured tests that claims PS3 was 1.8 TFLOPS.

In the end, middleware and lead skus will determine which game runs the best (stable FPS), but there is no way a developer will make two versions of their art assets 720 and 1080 for each system. It would be way too expensive.

so, if the games are the same resolution and if frame rates are at or above 30fps for most games then that extra GPU power won't mean anything except for Sony First Party AAA games. Then we pretty much have the exact same scenario as this Gen.

So because NVIDIA spouted some non-sense once upon a time, all over figures are rendered invalid?

Also studios don't author assets in whatever resolution the game is being rendered at.

Even studios like IW who have short dev cycles author their assets are super-duper-high resolutions and then bring them down to whatever the platform can handle.

Doing so means they can be recycled, no need to make a whole heap of shit again for future games or generations.

 

[Tyrax]

Except that the exact specs for the PS4 Gpu has been revealed, and using the same calculation that is used to generate the power of any other video card on the market show that the ps4 has a 1.8 TFlop Gpu. What's so hard to understand about this?

1.8 TFlop is not a spec, its a claim. Based of tests that one stress one part of a very complex system. These figures go though Sony, not amd or nvidia alone, and they got caught lying last gen. Cerny might be new, but Sony is not. Kutaragi had all the credibility in the world leading up to PS3 launch as well

 

[iamshadowlark]

Its hard to tell who's serious anymore in this thread. And thats scary considering some of the posts.

 

[RoboPlato]

1.8 TFlop is not a spec, its a claim. Based of tests that one stress one part of a very complex system. These figures go though Sony, not amd or nvidia alone, and they got caught lying last gen. Cerny might be new, but Sony is not. Kutaragi had all the credibility in the world leading up to PS3 launch as well

We know the calculation that they used to arrive at that number and it checks out. They can't BS it this time.

 

[Tyrax]

Its hard to tell who's serious anymore in this thread. And thats scary considering some of the posts.

isn't neogaf always just for fun.
you can't honestly believe someone will cancel their preorder because of a post here

 

[EvB]

I really hope the theme song for 2013 Sony Defense Force is:
The Who - We won't get fooled again

I think maybe Kaiser Chiefs: The Angry Mob is a better candidate.

 

[badb0y]

1.8 TFlop is not a spec, its a claim. Based of tests that one stress one part of a very complex system. These figures go though Sony, not amd or nvidia alone, and they got caught lying last gen. Cerny might be new, but Sony is not. Kutaragi had all the credibility in the world leading up to PS3 launch as well

Waht is this???

 

[Ricerocket]

1.8 TFlop is not a spec, its a claim. Based of tests that one stress one part of a very complex system. These figures go though Sony, not amd or nvidia alone, and they got caught lying last gen. Cerny might be new, but Sony is not. Kutaragi had all the credibility in the world leading up to PS3 launch as well

You're trying way to hard to discredit Sony here. Both X1 and PS4 are using AMD GCN cards, practically same CPU as well.

The same way to get the tflop for X1 is also what got PS4 the numbers...

 

[Waaghals]

1.8 TFlop is not a spec, its a claim. Based of tests that one stress one part of a very complex system. These figures go though Sony, not amd or nvidia alone, and they got caught lying last gen. Cerny might be new, but Sony is not. Kutaragi had all the credibility in the world leading up to PS3 launch as well

It's not like an 1.8TFLOP GPU is in any way unreasonable. It's in the upper midrange of gaming GPUs. A Titan has 4.5 for comparison.

This sets these specs apart from the bogus ones from last gen. 2 TFLOPS system would have been an impossibility back in 2006.

1.8 is, by comparison, pretty reasonable - perhaps even disappointing according to some.

It could be false, but there is no reason to doubt it.

 

[malboroking]

1.8 TFlop is not a spec, its a claim. Based of tests that one stress one part of a very complex system. These figures go though Sony, not amd or nvidia alone, and they got caught lying last gen. Cerny might be new, but Sony is not. Kutaragi had all the credibility in the world leading up to PS3 launch as well

It's obvious that no one is going to be able to convince you. No matter what anyways says, you just reply "Sony lied last gen!" Ignoring the fact the we have the exact specs of the Gpu and are able to extrapolate its TFlops from there.

 

[Officerrob]

The problem for Microsoft is Cerny. The guy sold me with his speech. After that I believed in the PS4 mission. I was moved. Sexually and emotionally.

You are an ultra niche, the vast majority of people have no idea who Mark Cerny is

 

[Kerub]

You are an ultra niche, the vast majority of people have no idea who Mark Cerny is

Just wait and see. Cerny will be an icon. There will be statues.

 

[Iacobellis]

You are an ultra niche, the vast majority of people have no idea who Mark Cerny is

That's because the vast majority don't watch console reveals.

 

[malboroking]

Serious question here, why does it even matter that the PS4 has a stronger Gpu in comparison to the One? Does the XBox one not have games that look great? Will the graphics not improve as the gen goes on like any other system? Does it really matter if multiplatform titles will run 1-2 fps better on the PS4? Why are people making such a huge deal out of it?

 

[Prelude.]

Serious question here, why does it even matter that the PS4 has a stronger Gpu in comparison to the One? Does the XBox one not have games that look great? Will the graphics not improve as the gen goes on like any other system? Does it really matter if multiplatform titles will run 1-2 fps better on the PS4? Why are people making such a huge deal out of it?

Because the gap doesn't translate into "1-2 fps better".

 

[EvB]

Because the gap doesn't translate into "1-2 fps better".

Interesting times to come, history has shown us on several occasions that superior graphics doesn't equal the most sales. It could go either way, or we could never know because these companies don't share enough details for us to ever know who has won.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Just wait and see. Cerny will be an icon. There will be statues.

Remember that Michael Jordan statue? Yea, it's gone now. Replaced.

 

[RoboPlato]

Interesting times to come, history has shown us on several occasions that superior graphics doesn't equal the most sales. It could go either way, or we could never know because these companies don't share enough details for us to ever know who has won.

We've never had a gen where the more powerful system is cheaper either.

 

[Prelude.]

Interesting times to come, history has shown us on several occasions that superior graphics doesn't equal the most sales. It could go either way, or we could never know because these companies don't share enough details for us to ever know who has won.

Well, this time the more powerful is also the cheaper.

 

[malboroking]

Because the gap doesn't translate into "1-2 fps better".

No doubt the PS4 Gpu is more powerful than the Xbox one, but I really doubt it will make a huge difference in anything other than first party titles.

 

[astraycat]

1.8 TFlop is not a spec, its a claim. Based of tests that one stress one part of a very complex system. These figures go though Sony, not amd or nvidia alone, and they got caught lying last gen. Cerny might be new, but Sony is not. Kutaragi had all the credibility in the world leading up to PS3 launch as well

The 1.8 number is a very transparent calculation.

800MHz * 18 CUs * (64 Threads/CU) * (1 FMA / cycle) * (2 FLOPs / FMA) = 1.843TFLOPs

We can calculate the XB1 number similarly, because the hardware is so close.

853MHz * 12 CUs * (64 Threads/CU) * (1 FMA / cycle) * (2 FLOPs / FMA) = 1.31TFLOPs

They're not based off of any tests at all, just the on paper theoretical maximums.

 

[EvB]

Well, this time the more powerful is also the cheaper.

Very true, although I would maybe think about how long through a 10 year generation will the Xbox One be $100 more expensive? 12 months? 18 months?

Also didn't Gamecube games generally look and run significantly better than their PS2 counterparts?

 

[malboroking]

The 1.8 number is a very transparent calculation.

800MHz * 18 CUs * (64 Threads/CU) * (1 FMA / cycle) * (2 FLOPs / FMA) = 1.843TFLOPs

We can calculate the XB1 number similarly, because the hardware is so close.

853MHz * 12 CUs * (64 Threads/CU) * (1 FMA / cycle) * (2 FLOPs / FMA) = 1.31TFLOPs

They're not based off of any tests at all, just the on paper theoretical maximums.

Exactly, but he's just going to come back and say "Sony lied in 2006, who's not to say they're lying now?" despite the fact that we have concrete specs that we got these numbers from.

Very true, although I would maybe think about how long through a 10 year generation will the Xbox One be $100 more expensive? 12 months? 18 months?

Also didn't Gamecube games generally look and run significantly better than their PS2 counterparts?

True, but the PS2 had already established its dominance before the GC was even released. Plus the built in DVD player was a big deal back then.

 

[Prelude.]

Also didn't Gamecube games generally look and run significantly better than their PS2 counterparts?

Yes, but the GameCube came out almost 2 year later, the PS2 was already a juggernaut.

 

[EvB]

Yes, but the GameCube came out almost 2 year later, the PS2 was already a juggernaut.

It was 13 months actually

But yeah, the PS2 was the only runner in that race. Different kettle of fish this time round.

 

[onanie]

I really hope the theme song for 2013 Sony Defense Force is:
The Who - We won't get fooled again

Right, Sony Defense Force...

 

[Prelude.]

It was 13 months actually

PS2 - March 2000
GC - September 2001

 

[EvB]

PS2 - March 2000
GC - September 2001

Just got myself owned.

 

[Tyrax]

Exactly, but he's just going to come back and say "Sony lied in 2006, who's not to say they're lying now?" despite the fact that we have concrete specs that we got these numbers from.



True, but the PS2 had already established its dominance before the GC was even released. Plus the built in DVD player was a big deal back then.

Sony lied in 2006, who's not to say they're lying now

still not enough to get either 1080p vs 720p on multiplatform games

 

[KidBeta]

Sony lied in 2006, who's not to say they're lying now

still not enough to get either 1080p vs 720p on multiplatform games

Microsoft has been lying for the last couple months, whats to say they aren't lying now?.

We have yet to see any comparisons between multiplat games, I suspect there may be games where the PS4 is 1080P and the XBONE is 720P.

 

[Tyrax]

Microsoft has been lying for the last couple months, whats to say they aren't lying now?.

We have yet to see any comparisons between multiplat games, I suspect there may be games where the PS4 is 1080P and the XBONE is 720P.

prerelease adjustments are not lies, don't confuse the two

ps4 gets 1080p and X1 gets 720 for the same multiplat games?
I got 200 salty bucks that says you are wrong

 

[KidBeta]

prerelease adjustments are not lies, don't confuse the two

ps4 gets 1080p and X1 gets 720 for the same multiplat games?
I got 200 salty bucks that says you are wrong

Lol prerelease adjustments, you really do see the whole world as green don't you.

Any game that leans heavily on certain things is going to massively better on one system or the other, I can see this leading to such a resolution difference.

 

[malboroking]

Sony lied in 2006, who's not to say they're lying now

still not enough to get either 1080p vs 720p on multiplatform games

I agree with you on the second part, it won't make a huge difference with multiplats, I think it's maybe a couple of fps and slightly cleaner iq at the most.

 

[Finalizer]

So, uh, not sure where to ask this, but what's the deal with some of the threads discussing the hardware differences between the 'Bone/PS4 getting locked now? Are we simply not allowed to bring those tweets into any discussion around here for some reason? Or was it just a "these threads have run their course" thing? Just want some clarification on this, since usually there's some mod note when a thread is closed, but in this case I'm left uncertain.

 

[beast786]

prerelease adjustments are not lies, don't confuse the two

ps4 gets 1080p and X1 gets 720 for the same multiplat games?
I got 200 salty bucks that says you are wrong

I wonder if KI coiuld be be possible 1080p on ps4?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

So, uh, not sure where to ask this, but what's the deal with some of the threads discussing the hardware differences between the 'Bone/PS4 getting locked now? Are we simply not allowed to bring those tweets into any discussion around here for some reason? Or was it just a "these threads have run their course" thing? Just want some clarification on this, since usually there's some mod note when a thread is closed, but in this case I'm left uncertain.

Good question. A short post from a mod in those closed threads would probably prevent further confusion.

 

[nib95]

So, uh, not sure where to ask this, but what's the deal with some of the threads discussing the hardware differences between the 'Bone/PS4 getting locked now? Are we simply not allowed to bring those tweets into any discussion around here for some reason? Or was it just a "these threads have run their course" thing? Just want some clarification on this, since usually there's some mod note when a thread is closed, but in this case I'm left uncertain.

Most probably "these threads have run their course". Pages and pages of the same sort of merry go round silliness lol.

 

[qa_engineer]

A whole lot of it.

 

[Bundy]

So, uh, not sure where to ask this, but what's the deal with some of the threads discussing the hardware differences between the 'Bone/PS4 getting locked now? Are we simply not allowed to bring those tweets into any discussion around here for some reason? Or was it just a "these threads have run their course" thing? Just want some clarification on this, since usually there's some mod note when a thread is closed, but in this case I'm left uncertain.

Well, actually... we are repeating all the same stuff over and over again. And the same people are in denial and are screaming "no no no". So after a while and several threads with the same topic..... its enough, as it seems.
We know the specs and more. The differences are well known.
See here, for example:

 

[SenjutsuSage]

So, uh, not sure where to ask this, but what's the deal with some of the threads discussing the hardware differences between the 'Bone/PS4 getting locked now? Are we simply not allowed to bring those tweets into any discussion around here for some reason? Or was it just a "these threads have run their course" thing? Just want some clarification on this, since usually there's some mod note when a thread is closed, but in this case I'm left uncertain.

I'm actually surprised that thread was locked. Everything that needed to be said has pretty much already been said, I guess? I don't know, but if that's the case, I can't wait to see the games that showcase this. It doesn't surprise me in the least bit that devs, when they start development are more immediately able to see notably stronger performance on the PS4, considering it's the stronger hardware and also the easiest to extract power from, but when all is said and done, and the games are fully optimized for both, I don't expect to see a 40%, much less 50%, difference between the two systems. It takes almost nothing for a dev to simply lower the resolution on the Xbox One version to achieve good performance with the same visual bells and whistles on display on the PS4 version. The real challenge for the Xbox One will probably come when more GPGPU related effects start showing up in games, as that, imo, will end up being the biggest differentiator between the two.

Either way, first parties will be pretty exciting.

 

[RoboPlato]

I'm actually surprised that thread was locked. Everything that needed to be said has pretty much already been said, I guess? I don't know, but if that's the case, I can't wait to see the games that showcase this. It doesn't surprise me in the least bit that devs, when they start development are more immediately able to see notably stronger performance on the PS4, considering it's the stronger hardware and also the easiest to extract power from, but when all is said and done, and the games are fully optimized for both, I don't expect to see a 40%, much less 50%, difference between the two systems. It takes almost nothing for a dev to simply lower the resolution on the Xbox One version to achieve good performance with the same visual bells and whistles on display on the PS4 version. The real challenge for the Xbox One will probably come when more GPGPU related effects start showing up in games, as that, imo, will end up being the biggest differentiator between the two.

Either way, first parties will be pretty exciting.

Completely agree, sums up my perspective pretty well although I think there will be more differences than just resolution. Cross gen stuff won't show many differences but games built for next gen a few years in are when the real differences will manifest themselves.

 

[Spongebob]

I'm actually surprised that thread was locked. Everything that needed to be said has pretty much already been said, I guess? I don't know, but if that's the case, I can't wait to see the games that showcase this. It doesn't surprise me in the least bit that devs, when they start development are more immediately able to see notably stronger performance on the PS4, considering it's the stronger hardware and also the easiest to extract power from, but when all is said and done, and the games are fully optimized for both, I don't expect to see a 40%, much less 50%, difference between the two systems. It takes almost nothing for a dev to simply lower the resolution on the Xbox One version to achieve good performance with the same visual bells and whistles on display on the PS4 version. The real challenge for the Xbox One will probably come when more GPGPU related effects start showing up in games, as that, imo, will end up being the biggest differentiator between the two.

Either way, first parties will be pretty exciting.

Of course you don't.

 

[maplelord93]

do not turn this into another silly console war thread, mods closed the other one for a reason

 

[Biker19]

What about the fact Sony was completely dominant in the console market with MS a minor player. Despite this both consoles have sold around the same and MS made much more money.

See I can spin as well.

No, they haven't.

Of course you don't.

I agree. I just got to laugh at anyone that seriously believes that PS4 versions of games won't have any big difference than Xbox One versions of games.

There were big differences between SNES & Genesis versions of games.
There were big differences between N64 & Saturn versions of games Vs. PS1 versions of games.
There were big differences between Gamecube & Xbox versions of games Vs. PS2 versions of games.
And there were big differences between Xbox 360 & PS3 versions of games.

What makes anyone think that this won't happen between Xbox One & PS4 versions of games as well? It doesn't have to be all about graphics/resolutions. It can also be something else like framerates, etc., too.

 

[coldfoot]

I wonder if KI coiuld be be possible 1080p on ps4?

I'm sure it could be done 1080p on Xbone if they spent more money on it and did not have to release by launch.

 

[Finalizer]

...I don't expect to see a 40%, much less 50%, difference between the two systems.

For what it's worth, I still find the assertion of there being [x] percentage difference in graphical fidelity between different platform versions of a game to be a ridiculous notion. It's one thing to quantify the overall hardware muscle of a system - you've got actual numbers to quantify the difference between systems in different categories, with which you can sum up some vague, but not wholly inaccurate, general numerical difference between the systems' performance capabilities, but this whole idea of quantifying graphics is just silly when that can manifest in all sorts of ways, ways that are even purely subjective to one's tastes (from another thread, "I prefer PS1 graphics over PS2 graphics because fuck you it's my opinion"), and even ways that don't show up in the visuals rendered on the screen. (e.g. a PS4 version is less optimized because the extra horsepower is simply used to brute-force performance to achieve performance parity with the Xbone version; "lazy devs") So saying something like "these graphics are [x] percent better than those" just sounds silly to me.

I think what'd be more interesting by this point is if someone did a test to see what kind of different visual enhancements you can get out of a game when you swap between a 7770 and a 7850. That is, take some basic system (maybe try to make it at least somewhat similar to the power of the consoles), put in a 7770, take some game (Crysis 3 is a fun benchmark so let's say our fantasy test uses that), change settings around to get a fairly stable 30FPS in most gameplay scenarios (have some demos handy for testing purposes), then swap the 7770 with a 7850, and adjust the game settings to see what amount of enhancements you can add while still getting that same stable 30FPS framerate. The idea would be to make some general measures of what kind of differences could manifest between the two systems assuming 3rd party devs really try to leverage the performance difference; as an alternate take to a pure FPS comparison, instead see what improvements can be made within a similar FPS envelope.

Naturally, it's really not all that necessary given it would be inherently inaccurate compared to software specifically coded for these consoles, and given that we're only a few more months from these things launching, but it'd still be something interesting to see in the meantime.