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2011 Fall Anime Thread - Bad Shows & Self Hating Nerds
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PdotMichael
Banned
BD sales are IN!
#01 Tiger & Bunny Vol6 - 21.6k
#02 Anohana Vol5 - 19.7k
#03 Steins;Gate Vol5 - 13.8k
#04 sCRYed BD-Box - 6.1k
#05 Natsume 3 Vol3 - 5.4k
#06 Uta no Prince-sama Vol2 - 5.3k
#07 Penguin Drum Vol1 - 5.2k
#08 Denpa Vol4 - 5k
#09 Dog Days Vol4 - 4.8k
#10 Ro-kyu-bu Vol2 - 4.7k
Other new releases:
#14 Idolmaster Vol1 - 3.9k (most sales are probably part of the Idolmaster 2 PS2 LE instead)
#19 Usagi Drop Vol1 - 3.2k
Edit: Usagi Drop Vol1 DVD sold 944, Idolmaster Vol1 DVD did 1.5k, Penguin Drum Vol1 DVD sold less than 873 (not in Top20 DVD).
#01 Tiger & Bunny Vol6 - 21.6k
#02 Anohana Vol5 - 19.7k
#03 Steins;Gate Vol5 - 13.8k
#04 sCRYed BD-Box - 6.1k
#05 Natsume 3 Vol3 - 5.4k
#06 Uta no Prince-sama Vol2 - 5.3k
#07 Penguin Drum Vol1 - 5.2k
#08 Denpa Vol4 - 5k
#09 Dog Days Vol4 - 4.8k
#10 Ro-kyu-bu Vol2 - 4.7k
Other new releases:
#14 Idolmaster Vol1 - 3.9k (most sales are probably part of the Idolmaster 2 PS2 LE instead)
#19 Usagi Drop Vol1 - 3.2k
Edit: Usagi Drop Vol1 DVD sold 944, Idolmaster Vol1 DVD did 1.5k, Penguin Drum Vol1 DVD sold less than 873 (not in Top20 DVD).
duckroll said:
Wow. Anime gets saved, and no one tries to save anime in return. Unless I'm missing something, and those are good numbers?
Regulus Tera said:
What kind of world do we live in that 873 DVD sales isn't a flop? I need to pay more attention to sales figures (not sarcasm).
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
So Penguin Drum didn't flop? Maybe there is justice after all.
wonzo said:
Depends on the type of show. Uta no Prince-sama for example seems to have a fanbase which doesn't exclusively care for blu-rays, which is pretty interesting. The BD sold 5.3k, but the DVD sold 6.5k. Blue Exorcist is another example, with the DVD of Vol5 (5.6k) outselling the BD (4.3k).
LordCanti said:
Each volume of Penguin Drum on blu-ray retails for 9,240yen.
duckroll said:
Even so, assuming every copy sells for full price, that's something like $600,000 (Doing 9k*5k and converting it into USD roughly). I have no basis to figure out what they get wholesale on each copy, but that would bring the figure down. Those margins have to be razor thin, don't they? Is there any sort of tail for BR sales as a series goes on? Or is that figure supplemented heavily by character good sales and CD's?
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Was Saya on duty to protect Blood-C's sales too?duckroll said:
A Black Falcon
Member
While it's nice to see that the better of those two shows is selling better, the true tragedy are Nichijou's sales...duckroll said:
But... it's a harem anime, you should expect that kind of stuff. I agree that it's sad, but certainly true as well. (I would make sure to add in the "harem" word, though; not ALL anime has fanservice like that, I think.)Miri said:
Yeah, I probably would agree that the cast is not Ben-To's strong suit. It could be worse, certainly, but they all have some problems bringing them down. The MC's not too bad but is somewhat generic. Yarizui doesn't say much a lot of the time. Yeah, I do sometimes like that stoic type (not always, I greatly dislike Rei in Evangelion, but sometimes it can be done well), and she is one of the better characters, but she's not a great character or anything either. Oshiroi I like, but she's pretty average... in this cast average is a good thing I guess. Shiraume I would like -- I like the character design, and the yuri thing's good too -- but she's just too insane to be likable, sadly. And Shaga... yeah, cousin. And that character type isn't my favorite either, beyond either of those things. If she wasn't his cousin she'd be better, but likely still not my favorite.scy said:
As for the combat, well, Oshiroi and Shiraume obviously fall behind there, neither of them really participate in the Ben-To wars yet. The MC, Yarizui, and Shaga are all pretty cool in fights. I was happy that Yarizui beat Shaga though.
Heh... but yeah, for me maybe if it was one of the other characters it'd work more, but coming from her I found that creepy. But yeah, I am definitely hoping it doesn't stay like this.
H-game adaptations definitely are hit or miss, but then again all anime is... my favorite (that I can think of right now anyway) probably would be Koihime Musou, and Majikoi's no competition for that, for sure. It's still got the guy in it (Koihime Musou anime of course completely removes the guy, and has a good amount of yuri humor instead), it's just not as good in concept or execution, etc. Still, Majikoi is a decent anime that I am having enough fun watching to certainly keep going with. Episode 1 is a long fight, while 2-4 are harem stuff; I think it's better at the latter than the former, as I said, the opposite of Ben-To. The cast's not too bad, the guy's somewhat better than some harem protagonists (he's not a complete loser) and the girls are varied and entertaining. Honestly, they might be better than the Ben-To characters... probably are, really. The Ben-To ones are, as you say, somewhat bland.
Apparently so. Hopefully she finds it in the future!
I would imagine that's the reason there, fanservice for people who like incest. Because yeah, there's no other reason really that they're related.
LordCanti said:
Let's assume that Starchild sells each unit to stores for 6000yen (75 USD). At 5,216 units sold, let's assume they shipped 7,000 units. That's 525,000 USD. If they get similar sales for all 8 volumes of the series, that would be 4.2 million USD. The question then is, do you think the entire series of 24 episodes with 21 minutes or so of footage each, cost more or less than 4.2 million USD to produce overall?
duckroll said:
Do rental places have any kind of an impact? Because video prices are so insane, rental is kinda big in Japan. Rental income can't be that particularly large but if we're dealing with numbers where a couple hundred sold can swing a show to profitability, it might have an effect.
Additional information to consider: In 2004, Samurai 7 was the most expensive TV anime series to ever be produced, costing 32,500,000yen per episode for a run of 26 episodes. It was said at the time that this budget was over twice the cost of an episode for an "average series".
There isn't a lot of hard data on anime budgets these days, so it's hard to say whether budgets have gone up or down since then for the "average series", but if we take into consideration that insiders in the industry say that for a show to basically break even, it needs about 5,000 units sold per volume, I would say that taking the cost of a Samurai 7 episode and dividing it by two is still a good general guideline.
There isn't a lot of hard data on anime budgets these days, so it's hard to say whether budgets have gone up or down since then for the "average series", but if we take into consideration that insiders in the industry say that for a show to basically break even, it needs about 5,000 units sold per volume, I would say that taking the cost of a Samurai 7 episode and dividing it by two is still a good general guideline.
duckroll said:
I don't have any concept of how much anime costs to produce anymore. There are other costs to consider though. They have to pay to manufacture the discs, ship the discs, etc. Even if that number comes down by a million or so though, I see your point. With a low budget for each individual episode, you don't have to recoup as much money.
If they're making money on the show, that is good enough for me. As long as the quality stays consistent.
duckroll said:
Now I'm super confused.
32,500,000/2 = 16,250,000 yen
16,250,000*24 = 390,000,000 yen
390,000,000 yen converted to USD = $4,991,688
They've got to be making a lot on character goods if the other figure quoted is accurate. Unless budgets have gone way way down.
zeroshiki said:
Mere profitability is never the goal. If a show is merely breaking even and making a tiny bit of profit from video sales, that's not a good thing in itself. It's better than not breaking even, sure, but it isn't successful. For shows which fail to break even, or those which just break even, to be successful for the production committee there has to be money made elsewhere in merchandising and other tie-ins. Failing which, the show has to be written off as a bad investment or a failure. I don't see rental discs having any real impact on this equation.
Real success for home video sales start at about 10k per volume, and the higher you go from that, the more money you make purely from disc sales. These shows would generally be considered to be successful and good return on investment for the production committee members.
Another thing to note is that you can only make a ton of money from merchandising if you have a popular show to begin with. A popular show would be one which actually moves discs. It can be idealistic to look at a show selling 5k and thinking "well maybe it makes more money on merchandising", but in general how successful the merchandising is, is usually tied to how successful the show itself is to begin with. Exceptions to this rule would be adaptations of light novels and manga, because these can be viewed by the main sponsor (often the publisher) as a form of advertising and expansion for the franchise.
The true major successes of the anime industry would be original IPs which can not only create a major stir by getting popular response while they air, but also translate to good home video sales (20k or above), and finally also have a huge range of merchandising planned to take advantage of this success. A great example of this would be Code Geass.
Oniisama E 01
Yup. I now see where Ikuhara got the inspiration for Utena from.
Yup. I now see where Ikuhara got the inspiration for Utena from.
LESBIANS WHO TOTALLY LOOK LIKE DUDES EVERYWHERE.
It would be a lie if I said I wasn't shocked when Rei started talking for the first time. I tought she was gonna be like the Akio of this show, I was like, "OH SHIT".
It would be a lie if I said I wasn't shocked when Rei started talking for the first time. I tought she was gonna be like the Akio of this show, I was like, "OH SHIT".
Dedication Through Light
Member
Instro said:
I think the ultimate in dramatic puzzle has already been done since POG Givers at this level wont risk lives. However, I guess a return to those large scale puzzles like in episode 1 have to return, the POG, which put everyones lives on the line.
firehawk12 said:
All that involve Mary need to end.
LordCanti said:
What's there to be confused about? Dividing the number by two is a good guideline for the most it should cost for an average anime episode in a "normal" series. I'm sure most shows cost much less than that per episode. Basically 100-200k would be a good range to work from.
airmangataosenai
Member
I'm... conflicted. On one hand I love Nichijou so I kinda wanna give you a high five, on the other AnoHana is an abomination against God. How should I feel right now?A Black Falcon said:While it's nice to see that the better of those two shows is selling better, the true tragedy are Nichijou's sales...
LordCanti said:
You shouldn't really take the specific numbers so seriously, because they're basically just general estimates I'm using to make a point. For example we don't know if they are selling each unit to retailers at 6000yen, that's just a random number. I used that number because it is close to how much Amazon Japan sells the product after their massive discounts, and it seems like a possible cost-price figure. We also don't know the budget of the show. My example with Samurai 7 is that it is one of the few data points we have to further estimate possible production costs.
Since everything is a general estimate with a possible range, it is pointless to get hung up on the actual specific number, but instead look at it as a range. In such a range, $700k isn't really a "big" difference at all. It is in fact my exact point originally. I'm not saying that the show is that profitable at all. Instead it is merely breaking even when it sells 5-7k per volume. They would be making about 4 million or so, and the entire show could cost about 4-5 million. Or maybe less. Even if the budget is lower, they won't be making any sort of profit that is impressive.
To truly be a successful show, they need to sell more than 10k per volume. But since your original question was how they can turn a profit at all with these numbers, if each episode of Penguin Drum costs 12,000,000yen to make for example, and we use the same made up estimate of how much they would make from total BD sales, the series would have made a profit of 48,000,000yen from home video sales. That's actually pretty shitty return on investment. On the other hand if each episode costs 15,000,000yen to make, then it would have made a loss of 24,000,000yen. The actual margin and range we're looking at here is kinda small.
Another factor to consider is that the production committee can offset potential loss by licensing a show to other regions, especially North America. A license can typically go for a 6 figure sum in USD, so that's something to consider.
duckroll said:
Oh, I know. I realize that the figures are based on estimates. Factoring in other costs (production, distribution), and other income sources (character goods), I'm sure it comes out to a small profit for a show like Penguindrum.
Really, I'm just sad that a show like MPD can only sell 5k BR copies.
Well there's nothing actually "wrong" about K-on it's just not the show some people want, it's a much better show than Infinite Stratos or some shit like that.Steroyd said:
And of course the other factor we're leaving out is whatever revenue they make from their run on domestic television broadcast in Japan. I don't know exactly how TV licensing works in the US let alone Japan but I figure they're either getting some of the advertising money or some money from the channel it's broadcast on. I'm sure that some home video sales are needed for most shows to break even or even profit but I also wouldn't be surprised if there were some shows done on such shoestring videos and are made just to fill a slot that they're(home video sales) just an afterthought.duckroll said:
Dedication Through Light
Member
duckroll said:
Is that why the MSRP of the anime is so huge here for most series.
I'd say partly, I'd say the other half is exposure so it comes down to what they reasonably expect to sale. In essence, like Japan anime in the US is a relatively small segment in the home video arena, the difference between us and Japan though is that in the west the chance for exposure is basically zero. You have a slot or two for a kid's anime on Saturday and you might have a block or so on Cartoon Network and that is it. For anything we care about Adult Swim is really the only option and that's not even a broadcast channel and it's already a niche channel. So aside from the paltry streaming money these companies make the only exposure their show even gets is from fans word of mouth, people's past exposure with the Japanese release or just sitting on the store shelf. They get no money from TV at all nor do they usually get to ride the tail end of the TV broadcast, they're essentially sent out on DVD and Bluray to die. Well not die but there's definitely a time when the iron's hot with these things. You have a better chance of selling a DVD if it has recently been on TV or the theaters than you do if it's a year or two old or has never been seen anywhere else.Dedication Through Light said:
Further, the western companies have to buy the rights to everything, just because they get video rights doesn't mean they have streaming rights, broadcast rights or even merchandising rights like the Japanese content creators would have.
I mean, we all bitch about our local distributors not growing the market and shit but really how are they supposed to do that when not only is Japan not trying to appeal to their own mass market, and maybe just can't, but then when they do get the license they themselves can't get it to our masses?
http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-4974.html
1,549 Idolm@ster fans confirmed for poor.
1,549 Idolm@ster fans confirmed for poor.
Or 360-only owners.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
EmmanuelMunoz said:
There is only Belldandy. And apparently she likes bad anime. D:
NeonZ
Member
mAcOdIn said:
Most anime apparently have to pay for the timeslot. They're basically long advertisements for the discs and merchandising.
There is some revenue from broadcasting too, but that's mostly limited to a few shows, generally the more mainstream or kid friendly ones that get picked up by various stations to fill their program grades. And, of course, if they don't get ratings, they lose sponsors and can lose the timeslot.
Actually, that's not true in Japan. The "anime" model with high prices and low sales is the model of the entire DVD/BluRay industry there, it's not limited to anime.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Probably the only good thing with American shows that run on for 10 years is that they can get a hit of syndication money, which is probably impossible for Japanese television outside of shows like One Piece.NeonZ said:
i have only 2d friends - 02
Holy shit, why have I been putting this show off? This episode was totally hilarious and had me laughing quite a bit. The MonHun parts weren't that funny but the Tokimemo parody was totally ace. I loved how the 2 girls are basically Haruhi ramped up all the way to insane all the damn time.
Holy shit, why have I been putting this show off? This episode was totally hilarious and had me laughing quite a bit. The MonHun parts weren't that funny but the Tokimemo parody was totally ace. I loved how the 2 girls are basically Haruhi ramped up all the way to insane all the damn time.
You people act as if the first week of sales for a release is all that matters. Sometimes it only remains a tiny margin of the sales after the first rush, but it also depends on the product and its continued exposition to the public...
It is difficult to judge an adolescent in that situation, and sometimes with such a pressure react impulsively. Some people cling to their pride unknowing the repercussions that will certainly affect them, to later regret it, heavily on this particular case.
No offense to you, PdotMichael, as I've seen expressed this opinion various times and I still can't see why anyone would call him that... or, are you joking this time?PdotMichael said:
It is difficult to judge an adolescent in that situation, and sometimes with such a pressure react impulsively. Some people cling to their pride unknowing the repercussions that will certainly affect them, to later regret it, heavily on this particular case.
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