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[Real_Madrid]

DRM is horrible as a consumer. I don't want to have to worry about being arbitrarily locked out of my product in 5 years because of some authentication server going down, or have my save games wiped out when the DRM client fudges an update.

Literally no one gains from this shit. I had to scour the internet to find a way to get Fuel running on Windows 10 because Securom refused to authenticate, and then once that was fixed the additional Games for Windows Live layer fucked up as well. I don't see Just Cause 3 selling through the roof because of millions of new sales from former pirates but I did decide not to buy it purely because I don't trust the DRM its using. Grrbgghhhh

/rant

Apparently you have never used Denuvo,
I will never understand the constant bitching of PC gamers about DRM. The platform has a piracy problem, so it's normal that game developers force a DRM on their games imo. And yes, I also bought GFWL DRM games and other bad DRM products, but that doesn't mean that new DRM products are the same. As I said, you can't notice Denuvo as a legit user, but people will always complain. If the DRM it isn't noticeable, it's the 'game preservation' thing, and over a year it will be something else.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Pirate groups said that.

These folks are super smart but the use all that brainpower for free video games.

That's a bit unfortunate.

as unfortunate as all that brainpower wasted creating commercial video games?

 

[Rushersauce]

Pirate groups said that.

These folks are super smart but the use all that brainpower for free video games.

That's a bit unfortunate.

What's unfortunate?

Believe it or not, thanks to them, you'll be able to play those "unfortunate games" in the future.

 

[Renekton]

as unfortunate as all that brainpower wasted creating commercial video games?

Far more unfortunate.

The above are activities of value creation.

 

[WaterAstro]

I'm going to start a conspiracy in which 3DM is Denuvo and they're cracking their own DRM in order to ask for higher cost from devs in order to better protect their games!

 

[MUnited83]

Apparently you have never used Denuvo,
I will never understand the constant bitching of PC gamers about DRM. The platform has a piracy problem, so it's normal that game developers force a DRM on their games imo. And yes, I also bought GFWL DRM games and other bad DRM products, but that doesn't mean that new DRM products are the same. As I said, you can't notice Denuvo as a legit user, but people will always complain. If the DRM it isn't noticeable, it's the 'game preservation' thing, and over a year it will be something else.

"Don't notice"

lolnope. Yes, you can goddamn notice it. It actively prevents things like injections and mods that to extensive modifications to the exe. It also prevented me from playing my games in offline mode more than once.

It's bad DRM, like most DRM. And the fact that is made by the guys that made fucking Securom should all but assure they are not to be trusted.

 

[wutwutwut]

I don't know about the guy you quoted, but I don't. Nothing over $10 or so. Maybe $15. With DRM it's just a long-term rental IMO. Never know when it will stop working. And these are rare - I have like about 20 Steam games and a handful of those were Humble Bundle.

I can pop in a DOS-era game and play it on a DOS-era machine (or DOSbox these days) until the end of time.

Can't say that about DRM'd stuff. Gone when the license is gone, gone when the online DRM stops working, or gone when the publisher decides to pull it from your library (look at Afro Samurai 2 that just happened). Or gone when the O.S. / game isn't supported by the DRM any more. Or, or, or.

I buy most stuff on console these days instead. Maybe the DLC/patches will be gone in a few years, but at least the bloody thing will work. Or at least, I can buy hardware and the original game at least.

Every console game is DRMed up the wazoo. You can't even make backups of your legally owned games.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Every console game is DRMed up the wazoo. You can't even make backups of your legally owned games.

If you pull a PS4 off the shelf and pop in Bloodborne in 2050, you almost certainly should be able to play it.

Good luck with any of these PC games with remote-server activation.

8-bit NES had DRM also, but it's strictly hardware DRM that only depends on the console and the game itself. The same sort of applies now to modern consoles. Doesn't depend on a remote server saying "yes, you actually have the right to use this property."

 

[TriAceJP]

Denuvo was an added strain on the processor. Maybe with the Devuno cracked, developers will think of a new method which didn't require the use of Virtual Machines and give performance boosts to the end user.

 

[Real_Madrid]

"Don't notice"

lolnope. Yes, you can goddamn notice it. It actively prevents things like injections and mods that to extensive modifications to the exe. It also prevented me from playing my games in offline mode more than once.

It's bad DRM, like most DRM. And the fact that is made by the guys that made fucking Securom should all but assure they are not to be trusted.

I also find that a huge exaggeration. It's like almost all the AAA games have exe-modifications. I played Just Cause 3 with mods that change quite a bit and there's even a multiplayer mod on the way.

I have a feeling that most people just want to crap on DRM, just because it's DRM. Yes, it isn't perfect, but the reasons you are saying are not that important or intrusive .
I'm convinced that almost all the people who played Just Cause 3, probably didn't know it had a DRM.

 

[TheFNEffecT]

DRM is horrible as a consumer. I don't want to have to worry about being arbitrarily locked out of my product in 5 years because of some authentication server going down, or have my save games wiped out when the DRM client fudges an update.

Literally no one gains from this shit. I had to scour the internet to find a way to get Fuel running on Windows 10 because Securom refused to authenticate, and then once that was fixed the additional Games for Windows Live layer fucked up as well. I don't see Just Cause 3 selling through the roof because of millions of new sales from former pirates but I did decide not to buy it purely because I don't trust the DRM its using. Grrbgghhhh

/rant

And you'd be wrong. We've seen what DRM does. Posters in this very thread have talked about the struggles they have had to play Securom games in Windows 10. The same thing is going to happen with Denuvo in WIndows Whatever. Time and time again DRM causes compatibility issues for future OSs, how many times does the past need to repeat before its a genuine concern?

It is a good thing then that Denuvo is NOT a DRM.

From Denuvo's Website

Denuvo Anti-Tamper technology prevents the debugging, reverse engineering and changing of executable files to strengthen the security of games. It is not a DRM solution, but rather, Denuvo Anti-tamper protects DRM solutions, such as Origin Online Access or the Steam license management system, from being circumvented.

Holy crap, Denuvo is anti-tamper that is IT! It doesn't prevent anyone from playing a game tied to a service it prevents people from busting open an .exe and bypassing checks. Show me where Denuvo has any licenses or rights tied to a user or account and I will gladly shut up. I can play Just Cause 3 and Rise of the Tomb Raider completely offline, btw. Now you have to worry about if Steam goes kaput then all of a sudden we lose our games, although I believe Steams terms of service indicate that if they ever decide shut down the service our games would still be ours.

 

[saunderez]

I have a feeling that most people just want to crap on DRM, just because it's DRM.

And you'd be wrong. We've seen what DRM does. Posters in this very thread have talked about the struggles they have had to play Securom games in Windows 10. The same thing is going to happen with Denuvo in WIndows Whatever. Time and time again DRM causes compatibility issues for future OSs, how many times does the past need to repeat before its a genuine concern?

 

[Real_Madrid]

And you'd be wrong. We've seen what DRM does. Posters in this very thread have talked about the struggles they have had to play Securom games in Windows 10. The same thing is going to happen with Denuvo in WIndows Whatever. Time and time again DRM causes compatibility issues for future OSs, how many times does the past need to repeat before its a genuine concern?

I have also seen it Try playing Crysis or Tron on a Windows 10 64 bit pc... I'm a genuine hater for GFWL (from the start) for example. It's clunky and a DRM should be invisible for the end user.

I could be wrong but Denuvo is something rather new(?), so I hope they learn from the disadvantages it has and communicate to the gamers that have legit questions about the performance issues and long term compatibility.

But like I said, I understand why Ubisoft and SE are using it. Especially since Denuvo isn't intrusive.

 

[MUnited83]

I also find that a huge exaggeration. It's like almost all the AAA games have exe-modifications. I played Just Cause 3 with mods that change quite a bit and there's even a multiplayer mod on the way.

I have a feeling that most people just want to crap on DRM, just because it's DRM. Yes, it isn't perfect, but the reasons you are saying are not that important or intrusive .
I'm convinced that almost all the people who played Just Cause 3, probably didn't know it had a DRM.

They are important and intrusive for me. And it's funny that you talk about the MP mode since the devs said Denuvo made it a pain in the ass to develop around. And you have no guarantees that the next Windows won't break compability with it completely.
I'm a paying customer so I shouldn't need to deal with useless intrusive DRM. It offers zero advantages for me and only limitations.

It is a good thing then that Denuvo is NOT a DRM.

Oh, but it is, no matter how many times people spout the "anti-tamper" line.

 

[saunderez]

It is a good thing then that Denuvo is NOT a DRM.

You can call it whatever you want, its a layer between the executable and the operating system. That to me is a form of DRM. And it's going to have compatibility issues moving forward.

 

[Dick Justice]

Nvm

Nice edit. But yeah, I'll enjoy waiting for a version of GTA 6 that doesn't run like dogshit, and that can be modded to improve multiple aspects of gameplay.

 

[TheFNEffecT]

Oh, but it is, no matter how many times people spout the "anti-tamper" line.

How so though? DRM's like Steam, Uplay, Origin all make sense as a form of DRM to me but Denuvo doesn't. Denuvo doesn't have to authenticate to anything to allow a player to enjoy their content.

You can call it whatever you want, its a layer between the executable and the operating system. That to me is a form of DRM. And it's going to have compatibility issues moving forward.

SecuRom had those Windows 10 issues because of verification systems that simply mimic virus behavior. I'm sure you have read about it already, to me Denuvo is permanently setting executables to "read-only." That's just how I see it, if I'm completely misdirected I'll gladly listen.

 

[saunderez]

How so though? DRM's like Steam, Uplay, Origin all make sense as a form of DRM to me but Denuvo doesn't. Denuvo doesn't have to authenticate to anything to allow a player to enjoy their content.

What do you think all of those systems do? They add a layer between the executable and the OS just like Denuvo does. The only difference is they don't go out of their way to obsfucate the shit out of what they're doing.

 

[MUnited83]

How so though? DRM's like Steam, Uplay, Origin all make sense as a form of DRM to me but Denuvo doesn't. Denuvo doesn't have to authenticate to anything to allow a player to enjoy their content.

Sure it doesn't. Which is why it prevented me from playing offline more than once despite that never happening to me on straigth steamworks games. And that's why it redirects you to a Denuvo-owned website when you can't authenticate. So sure, it isn't a DRM, except it is.
And Steam isn't a DRM. Steam CEG is a DRM, and not all the games on Steam use it, and many of them are actual DRM-free.

SecuRom had those Windows 10 issues because of verification systems that simply mimic virus behavior. I'm sure you have read about it already, to me Denuvo is permanently setting executables to "read-only." That's just how I see it, if I'm completely misdirected I'll gladly listen.

Funny you mention that since Denuvo Junior (VMProtect) gets listed as a virus all the time.

 

[saunderez]

Sure it doesn't. Which is why it prevented me from playing offline more than once despite that never happening to me on straigth steamworks games. And that's why it redirects you to a Denuvo-owned website when you can't authenticate. So sure, it isn't a DRM, except it is.

It's even worse than I thought then.

 

[JaseC]

No, "Rise of the Tomb Raider" is "Rise of the Tomb Raider".

There is no other Tomb Raider game protected by Denuvo, and given 3DM is based in China, I'd assume the comment was run through a machine translator and "Tomb Raider: The Rise" was the result. If, using Google Translate, you translate "Rise of the Tomb Raider" into Chinese and back into English, you get "Increase the Tomb Intruder", which is exponentially worse.

 

[TheFNEffecT]

What do you think all of those systems do? They add a layer between the executable and the OS just like Denuvo does. The only difference is they don't go out of their way to obsfucate the shit out of what they're doing.

The thing I'm not understanding is if a service like Steam were to go down and you lost all your rights to play any game as nothing was connected to the said service saying you own the rights to play these games, equate to Denuvo simply locking up the executable for anything but running it?

I guess I just see DRM to function as a service based system, Denuvo doesn't have to authenticate to anything to work. I've played Just Cause 3 offline for the first week to get that boost in FPS because of how much it tries to ping online activity.

 

[Maximo]

Well this news, if true, will only bring on more restrictive DRM.

I don't like this news, I don't like pirates, this makes me sad.

And it will hurt genuine customers like myself that will refuse *more restrictive DRM* meaning they won't get a sale from me. And anyone that doesn't like it will also not support them, can't win with pirates and throwing your customers under the bus to stop a few pirates is not the correct way to go.

 

[saunderez]

The thing I'm not understanding is if a service like Steam were to go down and you lost all your rights to play any game as nothing was connected to the said service saying you own the rights to play these games, equate to Denuvo simply locking up the executable for anything but running it?

Others are saying they're being redirected to Denuvo owned websites when in offline mode. I've seen dialogs being displayed in Denuvo games that are telling the user to log into Steam which are definitely not a dialog produced by Steam.

The obsfucation means we don't really have any idea what it's doing but it's definitely doing more than just protecting the executable from tampering. Even if that's all it is doing, its going to produce the same problems as other forms of DRM cause when incompatibilities arise with future OSs etc. For that very reason alone we should oppose it.

 

[holygeesus]

I've not had a single issue with Denuvo over the years. Windows 10 has caused me more issues since it's been out, if anything, with it's constantly updating in the background sometimes interfering. I had my Microsoft USB wireless hub decide to update it's driver yesterday, dropping my controller's connection in the process.

 

[the_batman]

didn't they JUST say they were quitting this for a year?

 

[Bl@de]

You know what? I'd rather that PC gaming stays PC gaming -- with all its wondrous user control, true ownership, wealth of customization options, and vast modding potential -- rather than turn into console gaming on faster HW.

Even if it means waiting a bit longer for some "AAA" slogs.

Fully agree. PC offers so much more than AAA.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Fully agree. PC offers so much more than AAA.

Uh ok? And how does Denuvo decrease your ability to enjoy non-AAA content?

 

[prudislav]

The obsfucation means we don't really have any idea what it's doing but it's definitely doing more than just protecting the executable from tampering. Even if that's all it is doing, its going to produce the same problems as other forms of DRM cause when incompatibilities arise with future OSs etc. For that very reason alone we should oppose it.

yep and unlike with DRMs of old, people doesnt even try to analyze what i really does, just because the people, who buttfucked as once under different name with securom rootkit ,said on their website its harmless and its not DRM....
... took me three days of messing with it to be able to run RottR properly offline withou seeing some strange errorrs... so i just refunded it in the end

Uh ok? And how does Denuvo decrease your ability to enjoy non-AAA content?

yep i have seen some weirdest errors thx to it , i havent seen since the Starforce/TAGES days, just because i wanted to play offline

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Uh ok? And how does Denuvo decrease your ability to enjoy non-AAA content?

Discourages modding

 

[Hektor]

Piracy is bad.

Nobody should be entitled to crack a game he legally purchased but had no securom key in the box.

Nobody should be entitled to crack a game he purchased legally full price but can't play because it's runtimerestricted in the country you life in due to stupid censorship laws.

Nobody should be entitled to crack his legally purchased GFWL games because the software is a stupid piece of shit that never worked nine out of ten times and is now officially in the process of shutting down.

Piracy is absolutely bad and people that disagree with me a wrong and pirates!

 

[Qvoth]

announce you've cracked after you announced you're quitting piracy for a year?
kinda dubious imo

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Fantastic news if true, though their recent statements make this a bit of an eyebrow raiser.

I don't pirate games, but I despise DRM. The only ddl system I use is GOG because of this.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Discourages modding

What I meant was how many games, which are not considered AAA, have Denuvo? Makes not much sense arguing against Denuvo when you don't care much about AAA in the first place.

 

[Bl@de]

Uh ok? And how does Denuvo decrease your ability to enjoy non-AAA content?

Modding. I have mods installed for most of my games. From cRPG to AAA. Denuvo makes modding a lot harder.

EDIT: Saw your quote

What I meant was how many games, which are not considered AAA, have Denuvo?

Lords of the Fallen is an example of a non-AAA game with Denuvo. So they exist.

 

[SparkTR]

They say they have a solution, not necessarily a crack.

"Piracy will be dead in two years"
"We're going to retire for a year to see piracy affects on sales"
"We have a solution for the DRM"

3DM is a for profit group so I'll take anything they say with a grain of salt at this point.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

What I meant was how many games, which are not considered AAA, have Denuvo? Makes not much sense arguing against Denuvo when you don't care much about AAA in the first place.

Lords of the Fallen
Unravelled

You can pretty much guarantee that anything Ubisoft or SquareEnix put out will have Denuvo going forward, AAA or not.

 

[holygeesus]

Also I don't understand how people can be 'glad' it is cracked anyway. It's not as if companies are going to just throw their hands up and abandon protecting their games. The same back and forth will continue, between crackers and coders, and we will continue to see companies seek to safe-guard their content.

I can understand the protection of old game content idea, but it will never lead to a situation where new games come out DRM-free so those saying they will only buy such titles, are still not going to be playing certain games, which is a bizarre stance to take IMO.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

I'm not 'glad' it's allegedly been cracked but it's going to be interesting to see if Denuvo has a performance impact if they have managed to strip it from the EXE rather than run some kind of emulator like the past cracked Denuvo games have. With consoles having 8 threads now PC games are going to increasingly become more CPU dependent and any kind of performance hit just so they can protect games from being pirated should be a huge no no.

 

[finley83]

Apparently you have never used Denuvo,
I will never understand the constant bitching of PC gamers about DRM. The platform has a piracy problem, so it's normal that game developers force a DRM on their games imo. And yes, I also bought GFWL DRM games and other bad DRM products, but that doesn't mean that new DRM products are the same. As I said, you can't notice Denuvo as a legit user, but people will always complain. If the DRM it isn't noticeable, it's the 'game preservation' thing, and over a year it will be something else.

I literally explained one of the problems I have with DRM - not being able to play the thing I bought for. That's a legitimate complaint!

I don't trust Denuvo because it means the DRM used for the game might not be able to be cracked, and therefore I might end up with an unplayable game at some point down the line. I buy plenty of games from Steam, but I also make sure there is a working crack out there so I don't have to worry about this shit any more. Honestly I prefer getting things from GOG, or sometimes the Steam CEG DRM isn't activated so I can just make a backup from my Steam download (Gunpoint is an example of a DRM-free Steam game).

At this point in time, Denuvo means there aren't any working solutions for the DRM, and so I won't knowingly buy a Denuvo-protected game until there is one. I don't pirate anything and I don't particularly care for people who do, but that doesn't mean I'm happy to just sit back and take whatever shitty online authentication etc. the publisher decides I have to accept installed on my machine. The additional knock-on of modding being heavily restricted by it doesn't exactly make the games an attractive prospect, either - JC2 was only redeemed for me with Bolopatch which made the game a load more fun.

 

[holygeesus]

I'm not 'glad' it's allegedly been cracked but it's going to be interesting to see if Denuvo has a performance impact if they have managed to strip it from the EXE rather than run some kind of emulator like the past cracked Denuvo games have. With consoles having 8 threads now PC games are going to increasingly become more CPU dependent and any kind of performance hit just so they can protect games from being pirated should be a huge no no.

I don't buy the performance issue. Testing on the new Tomb Raider game, shows that you can turn off all but one of the cores, of your CPU, and not lose performance, because of all the work being done by the GPU. If indeed Denuvo uses up CPU cycles or whatever, it won't influence performance.

 

[texhnolyze]

I'm not 'glad' it's allegedly been cracked but it's going to be interesting to see if Denuvo has a performance impact if they have managed to strip it from the EXE rather than run some kind of emulator like the past cracked Denuvo games have. With consoles having 8 threads now PC games are going to increasingly become more CPU dependent and any kind of performance hit just so they can protect games from being pirated should be a huge no no.

If anything, cracked Denuvo protected games are actually run worse compared to the legit version. These cracks aren't actually crack, they're just denuvo emulators. Denuvo hasn't been cracked yet to this day.

 

[jmga]

Also I don't understand how people can be 'glad' it is cracked anyway. It's not as if companies are going to just throw their hands up and abandon protecting their games. The same back and forth will continue, between crackers and coders, and we will continue to see companies seek to safe-guard their content.

I can understand the protection of old game content idea, but it will never lead to a situation where new games come out DRM-free so those saying they will only buy such titles, are still not going to be playing certain games, which is a bizarre stance to take IMO.

DRM costs companies a lot of money, they use it just to stop piracy, if the DRM gets cracked and no longer prevents a game of being pirated at launch, they will just drop it.

 

[CecilRousso]

I do hope Denuvo fails. It brings nothing to me as a customer, and I don't want more restricted games because of what other people do.

I remember the last discussion pointing to that Denuvo comes with an online depency, and if true, I don't want to buy games where Denuvo needs to confirm that I'm allowed to play my games I have payed for.

 

[Rich!]

Good.

Game preservation is more important than anything else.

I have near 200 steam titles I would like to be able to continue playing in ten/twenty years. Denovo and the like was a worrying precedent against that.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

I'm just saying alot of people probably use that reason in a conceited fashion

It has to be the flimsiest of justifications for piracy.

Good.

Game preservation is more important than anything else.

More important than game developer preservation?

 

[Vintage]

Good.

Game preservation is more important than anything else.

There will be nothing to preserve if publishers skip PC versions because of piracy.

I may be devil's advocate here, but if Denuvo or other anti-tamper solution results in more PC games, I'm happy to have it in every game, I don't care.

 

[MUnited83]

It has to be the flimsiest of justifications for piracy.




More important than game developer preservation?

Since the DRM does jackshit to actually help game developer preservation, I don't see your point.

 

[ChryZ]

The honest consumers once again gets dicked over with something that wastes precious resources (cpu cycles and ram) ... and for what? Nothing! :\

 

[Rich!]

More important than game developer preservation?

For me? Yep.

I want to be able to continue playing the games I purchased in another couple of decades, thanks just like how ROM preservation of classic consoles has ensured I will never lose access to my classic titles if the carts fail.

Why, as a consumer, should I care about anyone other than myself? Sorry, its a selfish view but I don't care.