You said it wasn't trying to fit in with the tablets & I said the controller was a tablet with buttons
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4K market isn't big enough to carry a new generation of consoles yet so Microsoft & Sony's best bet is to be disruptive (Nintendo level of disruptive)
- Thread starter onQ123
- Start date
You said it wasn't trying to fit in with the tablets & I said the controller was a tablet with buttons
I didn't say they wouldn't support 4K I'm saying they will need more than just the fact that they are 4K.
Elenchus
Banned
This is s silly case of splitting hairs. When the Xbox One would occasionally hit 1080p no one called it a 1080p console because the majority of the games were at lower resolutions.
You’re upset that Pro is getting the same treatment? Why? A console that may hit 4k on an odd day that is not even supported with native 4k games by its manufacturer is NOT a 4k console.
Sony is not selling the console with any actual guarantee of native 4k content support. If you happen to get some game from someone that runs in dynamic 4k you sir have purchased a 4k console??
Jesus GAF. Do better.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
It kind reminds me how people thought Switch will “flop” and now look were we are. All that matters for consoles is games, as long it delivers on that most people will be happy with the system.
4K 60 FPS is quite demanding, currently in a PC space there is only one GPU that can (mostly) do it in current games with max settings and that is RTX 2080 Ti which costs about $1300.
However consoles have always been about making calculated compromises, so I can imagine that games either go 1440p (or similar) resolution with better graphics or take serious compromises in quality of shadows/textures/postprocessing/etc. with 4K 60 FPS.
Look at The Order 1886 at 800p vs MLB 14: The Show 1080p and 60 FPS.
However consoles have always been about making calculated compromises, so I can imagine that games either go 1440p (or similar) resolution with better graphics or take serious compromises in quality of shadows/textures/postprocessing/etc. with 4K 60 FPS.
Look at The Order 1886 at 800p vs MLB 14: The Show 1080p and 60 FPS.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yep, and their next console only needs to be 1080p really. That will be native for most people's sets, and it scales perfectly on a 4K set due to even integer.
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CJY
Banned
The whole premise of this thread is flawed. OP, you are basing your opinion on the premise that Sony/MS NEED 4K in order to sell the concept of a PS5/Xbox Two. This false premise can be highlighted by looking at previous generations and they were sold on a lot more than just resolution. PS1: 3D graphics, Optical Media, Power; PS2: DVD player, Power; PS3: HD, Online store, Power; PS4: Immediacy, games, Power, PS4 Pro: 4K. Only PS4 Pro was sold on the sole premise of resolution increase. They were very open about this.
There was a lot more that went into the launch of every new console generation than just the resolution output. The increase in resolution is more a byproduct of the increase in processing power, and not the main sell of a console. Yes, it was the main draw of the mid-ten refreshes, but Sony & Microsoft aren't soooooo damn stupid to not have had their next consoles in planning already, even before Pro/X. I may be wrong on that point though... Yeah, maybe MS/Sony are just out of ideas, and there is NOTHING else that can be offered to attract consumers to the next gen, and both MS & Sony knowingly hobbled themselves by selling their mid-gen refresh consoles with the promise of 4K. I highly doubt it though, and a "move like Nintendo with the Wii & Switch" isn't something that just comes about all of a sudden, especially when running a multi-billion dollar corporation. You don't change course suddenly, it takes decades of nurturing a philosophy, so I would argue that "doing a Nintendo" is reserved almost solely for Nintendo within the console industry as it stands.
Sony and Microsoft's strategy is already plain for everyone to see. Again, the premise of the OP is very flawed on multiple levels.
Zambayoshi
Member
Stuart360
Member
Who said anything about 4k/60fps?. 90% of next gen games will be 30fps, like with every gen. There maybe a slightly higher percentage next gen due to the consoles seemingly getting a decent cpu for once, but the majority of games will still be 30fps.
That will only ever change if Sony and Microsoft mandated 60fps for every game, and neither of them are going to do that.
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CJY
Banned
No, I read the thread and it moved in a different direction to what is being said in the thread title and OP.
Don't get me wrong, I like Nintendo-levels of disruption and innovation, but to suggest Sony or Microsoft should do the same, could do the same, would do the same, or even capable of doing the same is just absurd.
CJY
Banned
Ah, I understand your strategy now.
1. Take rumours and news leaks
2. Call it "disruptive"
3. Profit
There is nothing disruptive about the rumours of Microsoft's streaming consoles, or their integration of Xbox games into Windows, or anything else they have in the pipeline according to the leaks. They may wish to be disruptive, but coming from a culture of being a copycat company, it's hard for them. Although they are getting there in terms of financial success in their efforts. Their failures in Achieving Nintendo-levels of disruption is not an indictment of Microsoft. It just demonstrates how hard it is.
for every Wii and switch, there's a Wii u. For every SNES and Gameboy, there's a virtual boy.
Norse
Member
60fps option on all games. If it can't run at 60fps in 4k, then a 60fps option at 1080p or higher needs to be in the game options. I'm sick of being denied the option all PC gamers have. Let me decide if I want 4k @ 30 or another res @ 60. Time for MS and Sony to put their foot down and require it.
Please, get it right here. This won't always work.
if a game runs at 30fps it doesn't always mean it is limited by the gpu. It might just be limited by the cpu. Instead than the gpu-resources are used for higher resolution.
60 fps means, the GPU and the CPU have to do double the work, which means you must cut something from the game engine in order to get a 30fps title to 60, if the titles already used the whole cpu at 30fps.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
4K television adoption has basically reached a 40% saturation rate of the market, it's on the verge of toppling 1080p TV ownership. The premise of this thread and its content have nothing to do with each other, the reason a console like the Pro and X are not selling at some astronomical rate is because they are nothing but more powerful PS4's and Xbox One's.
When new systems release with 4K support the story will be different entirely. This isn't related to the tech, it's related to the systems releasing in the middle of the generation.
When new systems release with 4K support the story will be different entirely. This isn't related to the tech, it's related to the systems releasing in the middle of the generation.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
But technically it is one, although the vast majority is not. Its the same with Pro. There is a list of multiple PS4 Pro titles that showcase it can render in native 4K, hence it is a 4K console. But you would do the reality of the day no justice to leave it at that: You will have to assert that most titles render below that, and that it has less native 4K titles than Xbox One X.
That does not hide away the technical fact, namely that the PS4 Pro is able to hit 4K native and thus can be seen as a 4K console.
Why would i be upset?
If that is your take on it then perhaps you may want to read into the specifs a little more.
Its not GAF's fault that you try to argue a point that on a technical level has been proven already by this post alone.
EDIT: And to put it in perspective, the poster that made the original claim never bothered to explain himself, ironically proving my own post later on to be correct even though at the time i was not talking about him, M meirl .
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FranXico
Member
It does support native 4K, just in less demanding games that the X, because it is a weaker machine, but it does support native 4K games.
A lot of people fell for the "True 4K" marketing I see. It's like blast processing all over again...
alabtrosMyster
Banned
I see the potential for disk free consoles in the mid refresh, I'm sure Sony will ship a rather conservative PS5, more akin to a PS4 PRO PRO+ in many ways, and this is what I want.
MS may confuse people with all these options, as long as they don't have a proven track record of really nice exclusives on their ecosystem I'm fairly sure what they do won't matter this much.
As for the whole 4K thing, next gen consoles will cement the 60fps target, with better lighting and textures, you don't need a 4k TV to enjoy those... hopefully they will release the games for all "playstation" systems on the same disks, maybe with some requirements as to which level of PS4 you need (PS5 required for 4K/60fps + sharp textures, better effects, PS4 PRO 1080p 60, PS4 1080p/30... or no base PS4 support in some instances, but that would surprise me).
This would allow people to upgrade when they see fit, and give benefits to their new hardware, some games may really require the extra power of the machine and be PS5 only, but I don't see many games truly require that to even work by sacrificing visual details in one or more ways, I mean, most indy titles don't require much power, most AAA games can be pared down without any sacrifice in the gameplay.
MS may confuse people with all these options, as long as they don't have a proven track record of really nice exclusives on their ecosystem I'm fairly sure what they do won't matter this much.
As for the whole 4K thing, next gen consoles will cement the 60fps target, with better lighting and textures, you don't need a 4k TV to enjoy those... hopefully they will release the games for all "playstation" systems on the same disks, maybe with some requirements as to which level of PS4 you need (PS5 required for 4K/60fps + sharp textures, better effects, PS4 PRO 1080p 60, PS4 1080p/30... or no base PS4 support in some instances, but that would surprise me).
This would allow people to upgrade when they see fit, and give benefits to their new hardware, some games may really require the extra power of the machine and be PS5 only, but I don't see many games truly require that to even work by sacrificing visual details in one or more ways, I mean, most indy titles don't require much power, most AAA games can be pared down without any sacrifice in the gameplay.
Insane Metal
Member
Nah. Give me 4K. My KS8000 is ready.
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my guess is they release a 4k and a 1080p console at once because the power to do 4k is expensive and because some don't have 4k tvs.
I think MS and Sony are locked into a processing power battle to the death so there is little room to innovate elsewhere. Hard to include new features and have the same processing power without increasing the price of the product. Increasing the price over the other guy has been a death sentence for console makers.
I wouldn't be surprised if MS and Sony release disc free consoles. If customers want discs they can buy the add-on drive.
I think MS and Sony are locked into a processing power battle to the death so there is little room to innovate elsewhere. Hard to include new features and have the same processing power without increasing the price of the product. Increasing the price over the other guy has been a death sentence for console makers.
I wouldn't be surprised if MS and Sony release disc free consoles. If customers want discs they can buy the add-on drive.
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lukilladog
Member
Of course, specially with games or devs that like or have the skills to push the system to the max (in a manner of speaking, before some coder gets offended lol). They are gonna love the Ryzen processors and they are gonna put it to good use, even on the PC side we are gonna face a new kind of struggle trying to mantain 60fps on next gen games (no matter how much you spent on your processor
). Also, 60fps as a target isn´t realistic neither, 7nm should allow around twice XboxX gpu power on next gen consoles so there is room for twice the frame rate on today´s actual type of graphics, or 30fps again but with much improved graphics, guess what´s gonna be the choice. (freesync would allow for something in between but the adoption is coming too late) We might see a few games coming at 60fps during the first year, but mostly because they were originally designed for ps4 level of hardware.
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Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
Ah yes, I love undocking my 4k TV and taking it with me on the go...Oh wait ths logic doesn't make sense.
You can't do a sale comparison between 4K refreshes and a cheap half-portable device. Especially since the best selling (reportedly) among the 2 4K boxes is the one that was $500 until recently. Comparing that to a machine you can get for less than $299 that works as a portable is a bit silly.
It make a lot of sense because if 4K was a bigger selling point than accessibility these Xbox One Xs & PS4 Pros would be selling at least half as good as Switch.
Also Switch was selling $500 bundles with no problem
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
You're starting to distort reality to try and save the flawed comparison.
How? the thread is about having a better selling point than just 4K & I show that Switch which came out in between these 2 "4K " consoles is out selling them by a big margin just like Wii was out selling the 2 HD consoles when they all came out because they have better selling points than higher resolutions.
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
Which is a flawed comparison that you keep trying to deny.
That's like comparing GTAV online to PUBG which had more players and saying that because PUBG worked less than games with worse graphics sell more, it's a flawed leap in logic that doesn't make sense.
Comparing refreshes that aren't new consoles at $500 to a below $299 device that can also be portable and replaces a device aimed for kids which the 4K devices are not, is just insanely stupid and you know it.
How is it flawed when it clearly show that what Switch is doing is bringing in more buyers than giving people higher resolution.
EDMIX
Member
"Next generation is the time to make a move like Nintendo made with the Wii & Switch because not enough people will care about 4K in 2020 " ???? huh?
Yea that makes no sense. First, you have not been to 2020 and know not of when the next gen systems will release, you also ignore the price lowering of 4K and its adaption, you also ignore that PS4 Pro and XONE X are mid gen OPTIONS, they are not requirements. Nothing regarding 4K adaption, points to suddenly MS and Sony going motion control gimmick or portable gaming or anything even remotely like that.
I'd argue the massive amount of series that have never even touched a Nintendo system is enough to tell you enough of a install base exist to want to see those series on beefier systems, 4K or not.
That would be like saying how little 1080p games we got on PS4 or XONE should mean no one wants PS4 or XONE.
Are you sure about that?
So if they can't afford a 4K tv, you seriously think a market of over 150 million suddenly want portable instead?
Where is the correlation that you are even making with this? Could that not be argued about 1080p LAST generation?
EDMIX
Member
Thats incorrect. PS4 Pro and XONE X don't run 4K, selective games do. As in, a game can run on XONE X and not run native 4K just like it might not run native on PS4 Pro.
That is based on a game by game basis.
EDMIX
Member
Agreed.
As someone who recently bought a PS4 Pro and a Samsung QLED TV, from checkerboard to native 4K is literally not feasible for me to tell the difference. Its just too small for me to see or care and I realized that the argument about it was pretty dumb.
EDMIX
Member
? They don't need to convince anyone, that is where their market is.
Assassins Creed, Call Of Duty, Battlefield and many more have had strong sales with a massive install base because they can count on Sony and MS doing just that, EVERY SINGLE GEN, not simply sometimes. So Nintendo got Call Of Duty "sometimes" because their hardware was up to date "sometimes"
You know of any hardcore install base that only likes gaming "sometimes"?
So publishers like to know that Sony and MS are consistent as it means their install base will be too. So if someone likes those IPs, they don't have to wonder if PS5 or XB2 will be strong enough, its just not a worry that those install bases have.
That is something NINTENDO fans have to worry about like RIGHT NOW, so it makes zero sense to try to argue "convince publishers" when its Nintendo that has to do that song and dance every gen.
Not MS or Sony. Lets be honest bud, we all know next gen Sony and MS will get the Maddens, Call Of Dutys, Assassins Creeds, Far Cry and all the other big AAA series.
Haven't you realized that MS and Sony have the most support? Doesn't that tell you that publishers just need a more powerful system? Doesn't that tell you FANS indeed just want a more powerful system?
So just maybe, look at the results and realize the exact thing you are worrying about is how Sony and MS and 3rd party publishers have been successful. Sony and MS job is to just make a powerful and stable machine for developers to work on.
That set up is why they have more support and Nintendo doesn't. They are the ones that need to "convince publishers"
TheGreatYosh
Banned
Cause their new games will run like shit on a PS4 3 years from now. Also, cause the player base will migrate to PS5.
EDMIX
Member
yea that doesn't matter. Those that bought PS2, still bought PS3 and 360, just like those who bought PS3 and 360 bought XONE and PS4.
Sorry but your argument is just invalid. "if they try to sell off of 4K visuals alone" ???? Ok, but where did you hear they would JUST SELL OFF OF THAT ALONE?
When has anyone system ever just sold off of that by itself? Also Sony and MS make the systems, they can't control the publishers that make games, so this argument of "sell off of 4K visuals alone" doesn't even make sense.
You think Sony and MS is telling developers "only focus on 4K visuals please, don't try to make a fun game, we ONLY want to sell off of 1 thing"
EDMIX
Member
Its a massively flawed comparison. Someone wanting a portable doesn't mean that no one wants 4K. Its just a different install base. By that logic, 3DS selling over 100 million plus means no one wants consoles. Its just not a either or, simply both.
TheGreatYosh
Banned
I am curious what the OP has in mind?
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
It's not just resolution that increases with more power to make bold claims about 4K alone. Visuals and physics and everything can increase just as much even if you still have a 1080p TV. Modern games don't suddenly look like Wii or PS2 games if you just lower their resolution to 480p. The new consoles will replace the old ones just as the current ones replaced those before so the market for new systems is as big as the current at least and potentially bigger as for now we still have people who don't care about video games but less with each new generation. New consoles reignite interest. It's a cycle. How they choose or fail to capitalize on this is their own deal, whether it's being disruptive or merely having more power as PS3 and PS4 had over their predecessors. We'll see. And yes Switch is doing good but it had the cost of being one system and one set of games, when Nintendo in previous generations could maintain two of those and have both perform well in both software and hardware. It wasn't a magic solution to Wii U's failure, it was a necessity that paid off in some ways but had a cost too. Also, system revisions rarely if ever did as good as the originals since they usually come years later and the generation is over before they even have the same years on the market, looking at their lower sales as proof of anything is silly, they served their purpose to cater to a niche market as Nintendo's cheaper Lite stuff did in a different way, to say they're better off without them or that they're proof people won't buy new consoles is silly. New console is all there's going to be eventually, games won't keep being pushed out for PS4 etc., they're already at the tail end of their viability and sales are going to take a sharp turn downward worldwide if they haven't already, if a new generation of systems isn't there to reignite interest in the industry then the market will go down with them rather than somehow sustain itself on old uninteresting outdated products, 4K or no.
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Shmunter
Member
I’m putting my bet on SSD bringing in things that previously were impossible. Not in a storage sense, but in a massive ram sense. Vast detailed environmental upgrades we didn’t even think possible. May take some time.
I’m quite sure that software taking advantage of this proper will require pci ssd solution on pc to be equivalent. Quite the paradigm shift.
I’m quite sure that software taking advantage of this proper will require pci ssd solution on pc to be equivalent. Quite the paradigm shift.
Mikey Jr.
Member
4k is nice.
But I say focus on OTHER SHIT, then if you have enough power for 4k, then do it.
Get 60 fps first. Then ray tracing. Better shadows, textures, etc.
Then when you've done all that and can still get to 4k, then go ahead. I honestly think 1440p is a good middle ground. But we'll see.
I realy hope devs don't chase 4k in spite of everything else.
But I say focus on OTHER SHIT, then if you have enough power for 4k, then do it.
Get 60 fps first. Then ray tracing. Better shadows, textures, etc.
Then when you've done all that and can still get to 4k, then go ahead. I honestly think 1440p is a good middle ground. But we'll see.
I realy hope devs don't chase 4k in spite of everything else.
sunnysideup
Banned
I am not buying a new console for higher resolution. I could buy a pc if that was important.
I am buying it significantly for better graphics, as in raytracing, higher quality art assets etc.
I am buying it significantly for better graphics, as in raytracing, higher quality art assets etc.