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4th Circuit Court agrees that gay marriage ban unconstitutional, again 2-1 ruling

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Paskil

Member
http://www.roanoke.com/news/virgini...cle_61d92242-f9e6-502c-8ba4-43a1ec9009ff.html

A federal appeals court declared today that Virginia’s prohibition on same-sex marriage violates the U.S. Constitution.

It’s the third such ruling at the federal appellate level following a string of similar decisions by district and state judges around the country and helps set the stage for a potential landmark ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court settling the gay-marriage issue for the entire nation.

The 2-1 ruling by a three-judge panel of the U.S. 4th Circuit Court of Appeals upholds a February decision by U.S. District Judge Arenda Wright Allen that the 400-year-old ban denies gay and lesbian Virginians their constitutional rights to due process and equal protection under the law.

The appeals court panel was composed of Judges Henry Floyd, Roger Gregory and Paul Niemeyer. Floyd was appointed by President Barack Obama, Gregory by President Bill Clinton, and Niemeyer by President George H.W. Bush.

Full ruling: http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/141167.P.pdf

Genderless dystopia marches on. 4th Circuit is made up of Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina (Maryland as well, but same-sex marriage is already legal there). About damn time. I've been going to their daily opinion page for the last three weeks waiting for this to pop, lol. The decision is temporarily stayed, for 21 days.

"Civil marriage is one of the cornerstones of our way of life. It allows individuals to celebrate and publicly declare their intentions to form lifelong partnerships, which provide unparalleled intimacy, companionship, emotional support, and security. The choice of whether and whom to marry is an intensely personal decision that alters the course of an individual’s life. Denying same-sex couples this choice prohibits them from participating fully in our society, which is precisely the type of segregation that the Fourteenth Amendment cannot countenance."

"Neither Virginia’s federalism-based interest in defining marriage nor our respect for the democratic process that codified that definition can excuse the Virginia Marriage Laws’ infringement of the right to marry"
 

Paskil

Member
the first 19 pages of the ruling are amicii / intervenors

Yeah, the number that signed on for the Indiana/Wisconsin hearing coming up in the 7th circuit is going to be ridiculous, as well. Can't wait to see the number of amicii when Kitchen gets to SCOTUS
assuming it does
.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
The appeals court panel was composed of Judges Henry Floyd, Roger Gregory and Paul Niemeyer. Floyd was appointed by President Barack Obama, Gregory by President Bill Clinton, and Niemeyer by President George H.W. Bush.
Let's play "Guess how they ruled"!
 

Paskil

Member
Let's play "Guess how they ruled"!

You'd be right, in this case. I think it's a bit unfair to say, in general. Many of the judges at both the trial and circuit level that have issued responses, up to the dual 10th circuit rulings, and now the 4th circuit, were appointed by Republicans.
 
You'd be right, in this case. I think it's a bit unfair to say, in general. Many of the judges at both the trial and circuit level that have issued responses, up to the dual 10th circuit rulings, and now the 4th circuit, were appointed by Republicans.
You ain't wrong, but with only three judges and who appointed them? Seems a safe bet.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Where is that ugly girl dancing?

Ugly?

yq7UZ4f.jpg


Also, HERE SHE IS:

penny-dance-party.gif


penny-dance-party.gif


penny-dance-party.gif


penny-dance-party.gif


penny-dance-party.gif
 

Damaniel

Banned
I'm more curious about the dissenter's justification for preserving the gay marriage ban. I have yet to see any (non-religious) justification that would pass muster, so the straw grasping in his case must be epic.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
I'm more curious about the dissenter's justification for preserving the gay marriage ban. I have yet to see any (non-religious) justification that would pass muster, so the straw grasping in his case must be epic.

Judge Paul Niemeyer dissented from the decision, writing, “Because there is no fundamental right to same-sex marriage and there are rational reasons for not recognizing it, just as there are rational reasons for recognizing it, I conclude that we, in the Third Branch, must allow the States to enact legislation on the subject in accordance with their political processes.”

A lot of conservatives judges, including Alito's dissent in Windsor, have turned to the tactic that there is no right to "gay marriage" versus rights for marriage extended to gay couples.
 

Matt_

World's #1 One Direction Fan: Everyone else in the room can see it, everyone else but you~~~
Good stuff
I don't really understand the court structure in the US, how many more courts does this have to go through until it gets to the Supreme court?
Is this one just a single state one or a collection of states under one court?
America is too damn big and confusing
 

Paskil

Member
I'm more curious about the dissenter's justification for preserving the gay marriage ban. I have yet to see any (non-religious) justification that would pass muster, so the straw grasping in his case must be epic.

Basically, it's a new right. Not a fundamental right. 14th amendment doesn't cover this new right, limited only to man/woman.

Good stuff
I don't really understand the court structure in the US, how many more courts does this have to go through until it gets to the Supreme court?
Is this one just a single state one or a collection of states under one court?
America is too damn big and confusing

Circuit courts are one step under the Supreme Court. The Utah case (Kitchen v Herbert) is in the process of being appealed to SCOTUS now.
 

slit

Member
Good stuff
I don't really understand the court structure in the US, how many more courts does this have to go through until it gets to the Supreme court?
Is this one just a single state one or a collection of states under one court?
America is too damn big and confusing

It already went to the SCOTUS, which is why the dominios are falling. They just didn't rule to wipe out the descrimination with one fell swoop is all.
 
Circuit courts are one step under the Supreme Court. The Utah case (Kitchen v Herbert) is in the process of being appealed to SCOTUS now.
Is there division in the circuits though? It seems like all the rulings have been for marriage equality, so what reason would the SCOTUS grant it cert?
 
I wonder if Kennedy would feel comfortable granting a cert now or whether he'll support another narrow ruling, since states are handling the issue on their own?
 

SkyOdin

Member
Good stuff
I don't really understand the court structure in the US, how many more courts does this have to go through until it gets to the Supreme court?
Is this one just a single state one or a collection of states under one court?
America is too damn big and confusing

The Us Federal Court system has three layers: the local District Courts (of which large states can have multiple), the Circuit Courts of Appeals (of which there are 11 geographic courts plus two special ones), and then the Supreme Court. This ruling was by the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, which covers five states: Mayland, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Realistically, this is going to SCOTUS, so the only real benefit in celebrating or looking at these rulings is whether or not there's any judicial novelty in the arguments that could filter up to SCOTUS. I read the dissent for that reason:

- Dissenting judge claims same-sex marriage would be a new right, not just a new interpretation of an existing right. The analysis where the judge attempts to show how these are different is fairly poor; for example, he notes that the distinction comes from a constitutional test in Gluckberg which asks whether the right is "deeply rooted in the nation's history". He notes that in Loving v. Virginia (which struck down miscegenation laws), it was not a new right, because the couple wanted to enter into an opposite-sex marriage, which was of course deeply rooted in the nation's history. This seems like weak analysis, because it doesn't demonstrate how we would know, before Loving, that the right deeply rooted in the nation's history was in fact opposite-sex marriage and not same-race marriage. The idea that mixed-race marriage was deeply rooted in a way that same-sex marriage was not seems dubious. Moreover, it seems to me like rights can cascade just fine--ie a right to speech exists, a right to specific forms of speech exists, and a right to specific forms of speech across specific mediums exist--so there definitely needs to be more analysis if the judge wants to claim that same-sex marriage is not itself a subset of marriage. He holds that race is unrelated to marriage, but that gender is related to marriage, but to do so requires some sort of concrete definition of marriage stripped to its barest components, which he does not provide.

- His distinction appears to be drawn across procreative capacity, which I think has been dispensed with by the majority in just about all of these cases nicely. If procreation were the purpose of marriage, then restrictions on marriage would be based around ability (and indeed intent) to procreate, not proxies for ability to procreate; and if they were based around proxies for ability to procreate, we'd disallow marriages between senior citizens because age is as powerful of a limiting factor on pregnancy as gender is.

- He does briefly say that allowing same-sex marriage as a matter of human dignity (IE that everyone ought to be able to choose their partner) raises issues for polygamous relationships. This of course is not comparing homosexuality to polygamy, but rather saying something about the definition of marriage. I am not impressed by this argument for two reasons. First, because even if one applies strict scrutiny for polygamy bans, presumably the state's interest in banning polygamy would not be "procreation" but rather protection of the abuse of minors and captivity against their will. Second, if the only reason why we're banning polygamy is because "eww gross" then it ought not be banned. If there emerges a civil rights movement built around polygamy, with test cases that are unambiguously loving couples not in an abusive or lopsided relationship, otherwise integrated into society... I'm not really sure how we could sustain polygamy bans. Maybe on the technicality that the actual mechanical elements of the division of assets and distribution of benefits can't be readily adjusted to n-person relationships instead of 2-person relationships (although here is a case where corporate personhood provides a very easy model... but anyway). So I would basically say that you can't just wave your hands and say "But if we grant people dignity, even gross people will want dignity". Yep. As well they should. Bring it on.

- Given his prior arguments, he feels that marriage should be subject to rational basis scrutiny rather than strict scrutiny. Strict scrutiny basically means the government really needs to prove the need for the law, rational basis means they just need to prove that the law has some remotely believable purpose. The majorities in SSM cases over the last 2 years have been pretty split; some have held that SSM bans meet rational basis but not strict scrutiny, others have held that SSM bans meet neither. The rational basis is apparently procreation. Setting aside whether that is a rational basis, under rational basis review extending benefits to one group and not another is considered fine, even if extending the benefits to the latter group doesn't undermine the former.

- Basically, it seems like once the judge accepted rational basis review, and accepted that procreation was a rational basis, the law was obviously going to be upheld.

- His treatment of the equal protection claim is brief, and he basically holds that sexual orientation would be the basis of discrimination, not gender, and protection for sexual orientation is not a heightened scrutiny class.

So I guess all in all it's a pretty standard dissent. Nothing novel here.
 

Volimar

Member
Realistically, this is going to SCOTUS, so the only real benefit in celebrating or looking at these rulings is whether or not there's any judicial novelty in the arguments that could filter up to SCOTUS. I read the dissent for that reason:

- Dissenting judge claims same-sex marriage would be a new right, not just a new interpretation of an existing right. The analysis where the judge attempts to show how these are different is fairly poor; for example, he notes that the distinction comes from a constitutional test in Gluckberg which asks whether the right is "deeply rooted in the nation's history". He notes that in Loving v. Virginia (which struck down miscegenation laws), it was not a new right, because the couple wanted to enter into an opposite-sex marriage, which was of course deeply rooted in the nation's history. This seems like weak analysis, because it doesn't demonstrate how we would know, before Loving, that the right deeply rooted in the nation's history was in fact opposite-sex marriage and not same-race marriage. The idea that mixed-race marriage was deeply rooted in a way that same-sex marriage was not seems dubious. Moreover, it seems to me like rights can cascade just fine--ie a right to speech exists, a right to specific forms of speech exists, and a right to specific forms of speech across specific mediums exist--so there definitely needs to be more analysis if the judge wants to claim that same-sex marriage is not itself a subset of marriage. He holds that race is unrelated to marriage, but that gender is related to marriage, but to do so requires some sort of concrete definition of marriage stripped to its barest components, which he does not provide.

- His distinction appears to be drawn across procreative capacity, which I think has been dispensed with by the majority in just about all of these cases nicely. If procreation were the purpose of marriage, then restrictions on marriage would be based around ability (and indeed intent) to procreate, not proxies for ability to procreate; and if they were based around proxies for ability to procreate, we'd disallow marriages between senior citizens because age is as powerful of a limiting factor on pregnancy as gender is.

- He does briefly say that allowing same-sex marriage as a matter of human dignity (IE that everyone ought to be able to choose their partner) raises issues for polygamous relationships. This of course is not comparing homosexuality to polygamy, but rather saying something about the definition of marriage. I am not impressed by this argument for two reasons. First, because even if one applies strict scrutiny for polygamy bans, presumably the state's interest in banning polygamy would not be "procreation" but rather protection of the abuse of minors and captivity against their will. Second, if the only reason why we're banning polygamy is because "eww gross" then it ought not be banned. If there emerges a civil rights movement built around polygamy, with test cases that are unambiguously loving couples not in an abusive or lopsided relationship, otherwise integrated into society... I'm not really sure how we could sustain polygamy bans. Maybe on the technicality that the actual mechanical elements of the division of assets and distribution of benefits can't be readily adjusted to n-person relationships instead of 2-person relationships (although here is a case where corporate personhood provides a very easy model... but anyway). So I would basically say that you can't just wave your hands and say "But if we grant people dignity, even gross people will want dignity". Yep. As well they should. Bring it on.

- Given his prior arguments, he feels that marriage should be subject to rational basis scrutiny rather than strict scrutiny. Strict scrutiny basically means the government really needs to prove the need for the law, rational basis means they just need to prove that the law has some remotely believable purpose. The majorities in SSM cases over the last 2 years have been pretty split; some have held that SSM bans meet rational basis but not strict scrutiny, others have held that SSM bans meet neither. The rational basis is apparently procreation. Setting aside whether that is a rational basis, under rational basis review extending benefits to one group and not another is considered fine, even if extending the benefits to the latter group doesn't undermine the former.

- Basically, it seems like once the judge accepted rational basis review, and accepted that procreation was a rational basis, the law was obviously going to be upheld.

- His treatment of the equal protection claim is brief, and he basically holds that sexual orientation would be the basis of discrimination, not gender, and protection for sexual orientation is not a heightened scrutiny class.

So I guess all in all it's a pretty standard dissent. Nothing novel here.

That's stupid.
 

winjet81

Member
Procreation as a rational basis for marriage is a real kick in the teeth and insult to all those couples who choose not to have children and all those women who are barren and unable to conceive.

What a load of shit 'rational' argument.
 

Volimar

Member
Procreation as a rational basis for marriage is a real kick in the teeth and insult to all those couples who choose not to have children and all those women who are barren and unable to conceive.

What a load of shit 'rational' argument.

Or women that get married after menopause.
 

Alchemy

Member
Procreation as a rational basis for marriage is a real kick in the teeth and insult to all those couples who choose not to have children and all those women who are barren and unable to conceive.

What a load of shit 'rational' argument.

And sterile men. Or old couples who waited to marry, or more likely remarrying after divorce. In fact, my mother's latest marriage and my father's last two marriages wouldn't be legal if procreation was a requirement and both are straight.

Though I guarantee if you brought up all these edge cases you'd see some mental gymnastics along the lines of "well they could have!" or "they already did so its ok now!".
 

pigeon

Banned
Realistically, this is going to SCOTUS, so the only real benefit in celebrating or looking at these rulings is whether or not there's any judicial novelty in the arguments that could filter up to SCOTUS.

I don't really agree with this at all. When it eventually goes to the Supreme Court, it's going to matter a lot how many states have already ruled gay marriage constitutionally required. Kennedy essentially said explicitly that he was worried about forcing a cultural change on a country that wasn't yet ready for it. If, hypothetically, gay marriage was already legal in all 50 states by the time SCOTUS heard the case, the odds of them finding the opposite would be essentially nil. So every additional state that rules for it matters a lot in terms of what SCOTUS will eventually decide.
 
If the Supreme Court ruled against gay marriage I don't know how it could maintain legitimacy in the eyes of the public. They're already pretty damn low in the approval ratings. Roberts vote for Obamacare was seen by some as a political move to maintain the Court's status as a public institution.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I don't really agree with this at all. When it eventually goes to the Supreme Court, it's going to matter a lot how many states have already ruled gay marriage constitutionally required. Kennedy essentially said explicitly that he was worried about forcing a cultural change on a country that wasn't yet ready for it. If, hypothetically, gay marriage was already legal in all 50 states by the time SCOTUS heard the case, the odds of them finding the opposite would be essentially nil. So every additional state that rules for it matters a lot in terms of what SCOTUS will eventually decide.

I don't disagree with you (I believe the public legitimacy aspect of supreme courts in any jurisdiction is hugely important), but I don't think stayed lower court rulings "contribute to the count" so to speak. In Canada, for example, the federal government acted only after 9 of 10 provinces had legalized SSM (all through court challenges on federal charter of rights grounds), but none of the rulings were stayed and all of them were in effect for a multi-year period before the federal government moved. The other weird thing in Canada is that the federal government managed to defer the issue for several years because governments in Canada can directly ask the supreme court constitutional hypotheticals without having the rules be binding or needing a case to raise the challenge. So I'm not saying it's a 1:1 comparison, but rather the mechanism by which state-level legalizations would help sway someone like Kennedy seems like it wouldn't work unless the marriages actually take place and the state is already living under the lower court rulings, which typically hasn't been the case.

I do think another wave of legalizations at the ballot box this November will help, though.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
There will be none. The fight at the ballot box has largely been put at hold.

So I see (incidentally, California has some great ballot initiatives this fall! well I mean ballot initiatives are routinely terrible, but these have good public policy outcomes!). I guess that makes sense. Hopefully we'll see more legislatures move in advance of SCOTUS.
 
There will be none. The fight at the ballot box has largely been put at hold.
Not on hold, it is dead. The only reason for the ballot measures was to get GOPers to the polls and now that it is a wedge issue that goes against them, they no longer bring it up.
 

gabbo

Member
Only if they want to go down in history as the worst Supreme Court in US history, rather than ONE of the worst Supreme Courts.

Every time I seen them mentioned, Scalia seems to be intentionally doing these sorts of things to provoke people, and Thomas sort of silently follows in step without all the trolling-type nonsense.
 
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