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[ksan]

Well do you? I mean, obviously you have movie theaters but do they play modern movies or is it stuff from the 70's like Cool Hand Luke and Starwars played over and over? Do you even have multi-plexes. I've heard some places in Europe don't even have multi-plexes.

Obviously not yet.
We don't even have electricity for the public, atm I just connected my bike to a generator and I need to continue pedaling to keep my 386 on.
However we are soon introducing our soon first movie theater in the country, will be quite the work to keep at least a hundred people pedaling for one and a half hour to finish the movie...

 

[MaddenNFL64]

That is just one interpretation. But what is wrong with the interpretation that Black Pete fell down the chimneys, thus the black soot? It's the version most commonly told now in Holland. There's plenty of other traditions that came from racist/unsavory past, but that is why we adapt and move on.

Why not adapt out the black face, since that was added later on? Is this part too hard to let go?

 

[Darklord]

It annoys me when America complains about countries cultures when they still have things like mass obesity, anti-gays, being the home of the KKK and a wealth of other issues just like other countries.

 

[Kurtofan]

Holy crap... ya that would. WOW.

Yeah it's still pretty popular over here and black people don't seem to care though

But I admit that it's clearly a colonialist symbol just look at the old advert from 1936:

 

[Socreges]

That is just one interpretation. But what is wrong with the interpretation that Black Pete fell down the chimneys, thus the black soot?

Nothing is wrong with it. It's just more recent, obviously adapted in order to acclimatize to a changing culture, as you said.

e.g.: "Until the second half of the 20th century, Saint Nicholas' helper was not too bright, in line with the old colonial traditions. Once immigration started from the former colonised countries Zwarte Piet became a more respected assistant of Saint Nicholas."

Hell, it may even *help* people get over racism!

By associating black people with a subservient chimney sweep that may stuff bad kids in a sack and flee with them to Spain? I don't follow. Besides, apparently 'Black Pete' is not even seen as being a black person!

 

[Fjolle]

Holy crap. American PC people really need to shut the fuck up and let people have their traditions as long as people dont mean anything harmful with their traditions and noone other than american fucktards get offended by that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA78L7MVlf4 :lol

google translate of the lyrics...

 

[Jill Sandwich]

That Banania would go great with some Conguitos!

 

[Fjolle]

That Banania would go great with some Conguitos!

http://dara-dara.cocolog-nifty.com/images/2006/775-DSCN2113.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
OMG! IT HAS A WHITE STEREOTYPE! BURN BURN!

 

[Danielsan]

Holy crap. American PC people really need to shut the fuck up and let people have their traditions as long as people dont mean anything harmful with their traditions and noone other than american fucktards get offended by that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA78L7MVlf4 :lol

google translate of the lyrics...

Dude come on.

 

[Fjolle]

Dude come on.

No, seriously you get offended by all kinds of crap... Grow up.

 

[Kurtofan]

That Banania would go great with some Conguitos!

http://dara-dara.cocolog-nifty.com/images/2006/775-DSCN2113.jpg

I'll bring some Pepito!

I think the image of Europe will suffer from this thread:lol

 

[Suitcase Test]

No, seriously you get offended by all kinds of crap... Grow up.

He's Dutch.

 

[Death Dealer]

They're painted black to represent the colour of the chimney ash

Not buying that.

 

[ymmv]

Why not adapt out the black face, since that was added later on? Is this part too hard to let go?

Why not get rid of Santa Clause's elves because little people don'feel mocked and ridiculed by those images? It's just as ridicilous.

 

[Temujin]

Guys, I'm part of the problem! I used to play zwarte piet for the kids at my previous job!

People should understand that this is a holiday for kids (or rather, the money in their parents' pockets). As I kid, I really didn't think about the why and how zwarte piet was black, until a Sinterklaas visit at school where he told us about the chimney thing. I think I was around 12 then. I personally don't think many other kids care, and really, people act like this will make the kids more racist or something. I can understand the outrage, but this mainly seems to come from other countries. I mean, I doubt many people know that "blackface" thing outside of the US. I also haven't heard immigrants complaining at all, just the usual cynical/politically correct crowd.

 

[Jill Sandwich]

We'll have to brush our teeth after all that sugar.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Why are people calling it politically correct? Like we're worried about this because it offends?

I'm here because i'm genuinely shocked. I just am, sorry.

 

[gerg]

Why are people calling it politically correct? Like we're worried about this because it offends?

Because people seem to be attacking this without considering whether or not it actually purports racism.

 

[Sluiter]

Why not adapt out the black face, since that was added later on? Is this part too hard to let go?

The funny thing is that nobody complained until some Rainbow Pieten started to appear on television and there was a fucking outrage.

 

[Instigator]

Because people seem to be attacking this without considering whether or not it actually purports racism.

And we have a winner.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Because people seem to be attacking this without considering whether or not it actually purports racism.

I'm not saying it does, but it's shocked me. It seems harmless, and you enjoy it, but wow it's just weird to see black face other than some racist shit back in the early 20th century.

 

[Temujin]

Just one more thing from the article:

The country of Belgium also celebrates this repulsive event, mostly in the north of the country where they share the same border with the Dutch. Belgium is another story. To commemorate their King Leopolds brutal rule over the Congo, when he had the hands of Congolese people cut off if they refused to slave for, the Belgians celebrate this with small chocolate hands that are sold along with chocolates of the Dutch Swarte(black) Piet.

WTF?? Where does he get that stuff? The Congo situation is easily the worst thing Belgium ever did, people are still ashamed of what happened there. Does he really think we would celebrate something like that? Wow. Accusing us of racism, fine, but spreading completely false information is just one step too far.

 

[Danielsan]

He's Dutch.

Yeah that cracked me up. :lol

No, seriously you get offended by all kinds of crap... Grow up.

I'm not the bad guy here man, relax.
Just don't go foaming and spouting things like "American fucktards".
Have some respect.

 

[ymmv]

Guys, I'm part of the problem! I used to play zwarte piet for the kids at my previous job!

People should understand that this is a holiday for kids (or rather, the money in their parents' pockets). As I kid, I really didn't think about the why and how zwarte piet was black, until a Sinterklaas visit at school where he told us about the chimney thing. I think I was around 12 then. I personally don't think many other kids care, and really, people act like this will make the kids more racist or something. I can understand the outrage, but this mainly seems to come from other countries. I mean, I doubt many people know that "blackface" thing outside of the US. I also haven't heard immigrants complaining at all, just the usual cynical/politically correct crowd.

The Netherlands is a very political correct country, the Dutch have become very sensitive about the depiction of other races/cultures. Sjors and Sjimmie is a very famous comic strip about a white and black boy in the Netherlands. Sjimmie was a stereotypical caricature of a black boy, not too bright, pitch black skin, a big red mouth who couldn't pronounce the 'r'.

In the seventies it was felt that this portrayal was racially insensitive and so the new Sjors & Sjimmie artist turned him into a modern kid who just happened to be black.

So why has Zwarte Piet stayed as he is? Because he's not seen as a real person. Zwarte Piet is not a caricature of an African, he's just Zwarte Piet.

 

[itsgreen]

I'm not saying it does, but it's shocked me. It seems harmless, and you enjoy it, but wow it's just weird to see black face other than some racist shit back in the early 20th century.

Racism isn't an issue in Holland (not in that way atleast), so we don't care.

I can understand that considering the racial issues in the past century, the interpretation in the US is wrong.

 

[Pikmindictator]

Depending on wich theory you believe there is 'some' racism involved with the concept of the zwarte piet. However most people in the Netherlands, and I presume Belgium, either don't know or give a shit. That said when I started looking at this holiday from a foreigners perspective I have to admit that it's quite weird and a bit unnerving. But when I was younger and still believed in Sinterklaas, I never associated zwarte pieten with actual black people.

 

[Fjolle]

Yeah that cracked me up. :lol


I'm not the bad guy here man, relax.
Just don't go foaming and spouting things like "American fucktards", have some respect.

How should i know :lol

Most people who is upset by this are americans (I suppose, i can not see anyone who is familiar with europe being upset by it), and as they are upset on a completely wrong background, the. uh.. last word.

 

[ymmv]

I'm not saying it does, but it's shocked me. It seems harmless, and you enjoy it, but wow it's just weird to see black face other than some racist shit back in the early 20th century.

Blackface was popular in the US till at least the forties.

Fred Astaire in Swing Time (1936): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6cLbk9k8BI

Judy Garland in Everybody Sing (1938): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Y2Ll24GRU

Bing Crosby in Holiday Inn (1942): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAHSTbD4A5M

The funny thing these performances were meant to celebrate a very old musical tradition and not to ridicule blacks.

 

[itsgreen]

Depending on wich theory you believe there is 'some' racism involved with the concept of the zwarte piet. However most people in the Netherlands, and I presume Belgium, either don't know or give a shit. That said when I started looking at this holiday from a foreigners perspective I have to admit that it's quite weird and a bit unnerving. But when I was younger and still believed in Sinterklaas, I never associated zwarte pieten with actual black people.

Or anything bad.

I think the social subtext plays a crucial part in this. There isn't a culture of racial tensions with in the Netherlands between 'black' people and 'white' people. I also think that most people just don't care, not in an ignorant way, but in the way that color of skin shouldn't matter and doesn't matter.

 

[commissar]

I agree with Gerg to look for the intent, and not simply the imagery through your own cultural view.

Those offended have the right to be offended, but to paint it as racist without an understanding of the culture this is rooted in, and the intent, is extremely close minded.

If this was a letter from the Black Dutch community, then the outrage would be justified. But it is from an outsider from his own American-based cultural view, and as such is a very narrow-minded reading of a cultural festival which appears to an outsider like me to be non-malicious.

I don't think this is racist, I don't think the TV advert is racist, I think people need to travel some more and encounter different cultures and contexts to their own. It might broaden their mindset.


I also believe the Dutch should send some of their black licorice my way thx.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Nothing is wrong with it. It's just more recent, obviously adapted in order to acclimatize to a changing culture, as you said.

So, is that wrong? Let's say it used to be racist. But now it isn't racist as the Dutch people adapted the story.

Is that wrong? Your thoughts america, Zwarte piet looks like he does because he fell down th chimney. In the past, it was because he was black and people from the past were horrible.

To me this is a case of Dutch people, like with most things they do, taking a practical approach and not just BANNING SHIT.

The other side of the coin is the butthurt P.C crowd that need to make it a large issue and apply american culture to it.

 

[itsgreen]

So, is that wrong? Let's say it used to be racist. But now it isn't racist as the Dutch people adapted the story.

Is that wrong? Your thoughts america, Zwarte piet looks like he does because he fell down th chimney. In the past, it was because he was black and people from the past were horrible.

To me this is a case of Dutch people, like with most things they do, taking a practical approach and not just BANNING SHIT.

The other side of the coin is the butthurt P.C crowd that need to make it a large issue and apply american culture to it.

And they live in Spain, where it is always sunny...

 

[Walshicus]

Not buying that.

Why not?

 

[speedpop]

What I wanna know is, where's my Asian Santa?

 

[Danielsan]

And they live in Spain, where it is always sunny...

Let's be realistic though. Spanish people don't look like Zwarte Pieten.
And I agree witht the notion that the Dutch don't even see Zwarte Pieten as black people.
They are their own entity.

 

[SecretSphere]

Hey GAF, does this blow your mind? Sinterklaas and Zwarte Pieten on the Netherlands Antilles: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rnw/3037961342/in/set-72157608937206410/ and http://www.samsam.net/archief/upload/1128001260039_cult02.jpg

 

[Goldrusher]

/enjoys thread while eating a nigger tit

(actual name in Belgium, nigger kiss in Holland, nigger head in Switzerland)

 

[Funky Papa]

That Banania would go great with some Conguitos!

Oh man, that one brings some memories. The Conguito mascot, a couple of peanuts covered in chocolate, was one of the most popular characters in the country for decades. Kids, black and white, loved the little guy and his ads were always some of the best on TV (he even got his own plushy line).

The company never had any troubles despiting the fact that it was an evolution of a character that used some black stereotypes from a bygone era. People simply accepted that it was not mean spirited in any way. He wasn't a black person nor a malicious caricature - he was just a happy, smiling peanut from the Congo.

That was until a college teacher specialized in American studies menaced to raise hell acusing the company of being racist, fascist, xenophobic and God knows what else, again, despiting the fact the black population didn't give a toss about the mascot. The sweet maker got its pants in a bunch and changed its design to this:

 

[senahorse]

Fred Astaire in Swing Time (1936): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6cLbk9k8BI

Fred Astaire was simply amazing, thanks for the link I haven't seen this in a long time.

 

[jorma]

/enjoys thread while eating a nigger tit

(actual name in Belgium, nigger kiss in Holland, nigger head in Switzerland)

I'm not swiss, belgian or dutch, but i'm still pretty sure that you mean negro/negress.

 

[Danielsan]

/enjoys thread while eating a nigger tit

(actual name in Belgium, nigger kiss in Holland, nigger head in Switzerland)

Just "Kisses" in The Netherlands these days.
And yes Negro Kiss, not *insert n-word* kiss.
Pretty big difference.

 

[Kurtofan]

That exists in France too:it's called a Téte de Négre(Negrohead)

7
This is a chocolate meringue,but I think they changed the name recently because it's been a long time I didn't see it

 

[Albino_Samurai]

/enjoys thread while eating a nigger tit

(actual name in Belgium, nigger kiss in Holland, nigger head in Switzerland)

That's just damn ignorant.
Like other Dutchy's have allready told you guys, this has nothing to do with racism.
And i certainly don't use the N word.

 

[Socreges]

So, is that wrong? Let's say it used to be racist. But now it isn't racist as the Dutch people adapted the story.

Is that wrong? Your thoughts america, Zwarte piet looks like he does because he fell down th chimney. In the past, it was because he was black and people from the past were horrible.

To me this is a case of Dutch people, like with most things they do, taking a practical approach and not just BANNING SHIT.

The other side of the coin is the butthurt P.C crowd that need to make it a large issue and apply american culture to it.

I'm not American. Maybe I should just assume that your post isn't at all meant for me since practically nothing here serves as a reply.

And no, this isn't Dutch people taking a "practical approach". You can't simplify things like that. This is the Dutch people occasionally adapting a deeply-loved tradition as it is challenged by prevailing beliefs. They would just as easily ban it if it weren't so deeply ingrained in their culture and traditions.

My only real problem with all of this, if I had to clarify, is the blackface. But that's not to say I think the Dutch people should change it. They have their own understanding of it, apart from the history. I can't help but relate the imagery to everything it represented in the first place, though, and the only reason it even exists. It's a vestige of the past and still carries the same connotations for me. If other people see it differently, good for them.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Like other Dutchy's have allready told you guys, this has nothing to do with racism.

How so?

I know there's been chocolate pastry where I live that used a similar name, although most people have stopped using it since it's considered offensive.

 

[SmokyDave]

I find it ironic that this topic keeps being bumped next to the one about the Louisiana Pastor that is refusing to do inter-racial marriages for the childrens sake.

 

[dinazimmerman]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

 

[DrFunk]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

EuroGaf/AustraliaGAF at it's finest

 

[itsinmyveins]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[gerg]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

I, at the least, do not mean to suggest that European culture can't be racist, but that racism lies not with the imagery itself but with how that imagery is used within a wider context. Racist imagery is a symptom, not a cause. Following the analogy, what we have here is very much the symptom without the cause - a somewhat stereotypical portrayal, but one devoid of the racist culture behind it.

I don't mean to suggest that were you to start this tradition, now, in America, it would suddenly become racist, either. It might be considered more offensive, by some, for its association with a previously racist culture, but I'd find it hard to consider this practice, in itself, racist.