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[Deleted member 1235]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

some people think that I guess. It's just annoying when a USA person preaches from on high and demonstrate that they obviously probably never even left their own state let alone country. I mean the OP is soooo riddled with BAD fucking errors that it deserves to be derided. It's a blatantly mixed up biased article and if you going to tell peoplehalf way round the world how they should do shit, then you should at least know what you're talking about.

Holland has race issues. Bad ones. But I don't think Zwarte Piet is one of them. TBH you're more likely to take shit here if you're Morrocan or Turkish than African actually. That's were the racial tension is, not with Africans. (I'm aware that Morocco is in Africa but you get what I mean I think.)

 

[GoutPatrol]

That exists in France too:it's called a Téte de Négre(Negrohead)

7
This is a chocolate meringue,but I think they changed the name recently because it's been a long time I didn't see it

If that just blown up really big, or is it the size of an actual head? (which would be awesome)

 

[SmokyDave]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

That's a really good point, as long as we assume there is a homogenous blob called 'Euro-GAF' that only has one opinion on this subject and has derided American culture in a hypocritical way in the past.

Otherwise, you'd just be generalising a huge group of people.

 

[Treo360]

Chimney Sweeping gives you an Afro now?

 

[itsinmyveins]

Holland has race issues. Bad ones. But I don't think Zwarte Piet is one of them. TBH you're more likely to take shit here if you're Morrocan or Turkish than African actually. That's were the racial tension is, not with Africans. (I'm aware that Morocco is in Africa but you get what I mean I think.)

Well, I assume that's because there are plenty more turkish and morrocan people than africans in Holland. Europe has a larger degree of immigrants from Iran, Iraq, Turkey and etc than from Africa in general, I guess.

Chimney Sweeping gives you an Afro now?

I'm kinda curious about the explanation to that as well :lol

 

[ymmv]

some people think that I guess. It's just annoying when a USA person preaches from on high and demonstrate that they obviously probably never even left their own state let alone country. I mean the OP is soooo riddled with BAD fucking errors that it deserves to be derided. It's a blatantly mixed up biased article and if you going to tell peoplehalf way round the world how they should do shit, then you should at least know what you're talking about.

The article quoted by the OP is so over the top with its accusations and so riddles with errors, half-truths and outright lies I simply couldn't take it seriously. It's simply one guy on a trolling rampage.

 

[DrFunk]

Chimney Sweeping gives you an Afro now?

lol

 

[Combichristoffersen]

/enjoys thread while eating a nigger tit

http://www.briskmagazine.nl/graphics/anp/BIN/img-230306-012.onlineBild.jpg

(actual name in Belgium, nigger kiss in Holland, nigger head in Switzerland)

That was called negro bun (negerbolle) here in Norway. There's also a manufacturer of spices named Black Boy, who used a caricatured black boy as their mascot, but they had to ditch the mascot due to immigrants feeling offended IIRC.

 

[Danielsan]

Chimney Sweeping gives you an Afro now?

Jewfros man, Jewfros.
But yeah. :lol

 

[Canova]

This is the U.S at its worst.

Why don't u guys mind your own business and stop telling other countries what they should and should not do. As long as it doesn't harm you, why the fuck you guys care? The last time I checked your country is far far from perfect; in the case of racism, I just heard an interracial couple was denied marriage license in Louisiana. Aside from racism, you have other problems too, your economy is fucked, health care is fucked up, foreclosures, ponzi schemes (now should other countries (mostly EU) whose citizens affected by your ponzi schemes impose economic sanction to your already fucked economy?!?) your debt is thru the roof, Iraq war, your citizens irresponsibility caused the worst recession since 1930, etc, etc, etc. Now take care those problems, and when you guys are near perfect maybe then you can start telling other countries what to do.

And lastly, stories I heard when I was kid is that Black Pete got his black face because he entered houses from the chimneys

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Well, I assume that's because there are plenty more turkish and morrocan people than africans in Holland. Europe has a larger degree of immigrants from Iran, Iraq, Turkey and etc than from Africa in general, I guess.

There is a shitload of African people here as well. It's just.... well, seems like dutch people disagree more with faith and the lifestyles etc associated with than skin colour as far as I can tell from news articles and 'the immigration issues'.

 

[dinazimmerman]

That's a really good point, as long as we assume there is a homogenous blob called 'Euro-GAF' that only has one opinion on this subject and has derided American culture in a hypocritical way in the past.

Otherwise, you'd just be generalising a huge group of people.

You're right. It isn't a good idea generalize like that, and I apologize. However, I hope you realize that Americans get grouped together like that all the time, probably even more so than Europeans. I haven't even read the thread about the interracial couple being denied a marriage license in Louisiana, and I already know that someone posted "ONLY IN AMERICA" on the first page. :lol

I, at the least, do not mean to suggest that European culture can't be racist, but that racism lies not with the imagery itself but with how that imagery is used within a wider context. Racist imagery is a symptom, not a cause. Following the analogy, what we have here is very much the symptom without the cause - a somewhat stereotypical portrayal, but one devoid of the racist culture behind it.

I don't mean to suggest that were you to start this tradition, now, in America, it would suddenly become racist, either. It might be considered more offensive, by some, for its association with a previously racist culture, but I'd find it hard to consider this practice, in itself, racist.

Curing a disease without eliminating its symptoms is like never having done anything at all. If the Netherlands, the US, or any other country wants to pride itself on having, for the most part, gotten past racism, it should attempt to remove everything that hints of racism, even in a playful or innocent way, from its cultural practices. Even if they are innocuous on the surface, racist cultural practices do affect the country's psyche in deceivingly subtle ways.

 

[gerg]

Curing a disease without eliminating its symptoms is like never having done anything at all. If the Netherlands, the US, or any other country wants to pride itself on having, for the most part, gotten past racism, it should attempt to remove everything that hints of racism, even in a playful or innocent way, from its cultural practices. Even if they are innocuous on the surface, racist cultural practices do affect the country's psyche in deceivingly subtle ways.

So I ask again: how does an image of a person with very dark skin and bright lips become racist in itself?

Bear in mind that, lest your argument become circular, you can't make reference to external cultural practices that are already racist.

 

[jorma]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

Butthurt? Idk. It's boring, it makes you look ignorant and it's pretty annoying. Does this equal butthurt?

Would the "apologies" be accepted if they were being used to defend America? I think they would. Try defending thanksgiving (in regards to it being offensive to native americans) and we'll see if eurogaf is wielding the hypocrisy-wand about it. I dont think they will.

 

[Treo360]

This is the U.S at its worst.

Why don't u guys mind your own business and stop telling other countries what they should and should not do. As long as it doesn't harm you, why the fuck you guys care? The last time I checked your country is far far from perfect; in the case of racism, I just heard an interracial couple was denied marriage license in Louisiana. Aside from racism, you have other problems too, your economy is fucked, health care is fucked up, foreclosures, ponzi schemes (now should other countries (mostly EU) whose citizens affected by your ponzi schemes impose economic sanction to your already fucked economy?!?) your debt is thru the roof, Iraq war, your citizens irresponsibility caused the worst recession since 1930, etc, etc, etc. Now take care those problems, and when you guys are near perfect maybe then you can start telling other countries what to do.

And lastly, stories I heard when I was kid is that Black Pete got his black face because he entered houses from the chimneys

Bra "fucking" vo.

Now if you don't mind I'm going to climb down a chimney and get my 'Fro started in earnest.

Ignorance is bliss regardless of where you come from.

 

[Canova]

Bra "fucking" vo.

Now if you don't mind I'm going to climb down a chimney and get my 'Fro started in earnest.

Ignorance is bliss regardless of where you come from.

irony is that you guys got not a-goddamn clue about other cultures, so mind your own goddamn business

 

[neorej]

I'm not American. Maybe I should just assume that your post isn't at all meant for me since practically nothing here serves as a reply.

And no, this isn't Dutch people taking a "practical approach". You can't simplify things like that. This is the Dutch people occasionally adapting a deeply-loved tradition as it is challenged by prevailing beliefs. They would just as easily ban it if it weren't so deeply ingrained in their culture and traditions.

My only real problem with all of this, if I had to clarify, is the blackface. But that's not to say I think the Dutch people should change it. They have their own understanding of it, apart from the history. I can't help but relate the imagery to everything it represented in the first place, though, and the only reason it even exists. It's a vestige of the past and still carries the same connotations for me. If other people see it differently, good for them.

Once again, the black painting on people's faces is not the blackface you got accustomed to in the US. Zwarte Piet is a fictional black entity and to portray him correctly you have to paint your face black.

It's like putting on a fake beard and wooly red/white hat in order to dress up like Santa Clause.

 

[phisheep]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

There's no monopoly on racism, and I don't think anyone is claiming that.

But it is a bit over the top to apply American values 'critically' to other cultural traditions without regard to our different histories. In particular, overt racism is a more recent and more current problem in the US than it is over here, where prejudice is more commonly encountered along nationalist or religious lines, so that a black Frenchman might be more obviously French than he is black (which I guess would be a bit difficult to understand from the US perspective).

The apologies in this thread wouldn't apply in the US because of the different history. But that doesn't mean that they don't apply in the Netherlands. Nothing hypocritical about it.

And really, it is the uncritical assumption that the same values apply everywhere, coupled with the presumption (as in the topic title) that it is up to the US to police the world according to its own lights, that grates.

 

[eznark]

Jesus CHRIST it's not hard.

This kind of shit is irresponsible man. Imagine being a black child in Holland. Skin color can't just be made into a joke. It's not in good fun if you don't want to be a part of it. Minorities shouldn't have to buy into a bullshit "cultural" tradition embedded (obviously! Jesus Christ are you blind?!) in racism because it's all in good fun and no one's getting hurt.

This post is highly offensive to Atheist GAF. Think of the atheists.

 

[Canova]

Let's derail this stupid thread

Yahoo front page

Interracial couple denied marriage license in Louisiana

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091016/ap_on_re_us/us_interracial_rebuff

 

[dinazimmerman]

So I ask again: how does an image of a person with very dark skin and bright lips become racist in itself?

Bear in mind that, lest your argument become circular, you can't make reference to external cultural practices that are already racist.

"Images of people with very dark skin and bright lips" reinforce stereotypes inherited not only from American culture, but from European culture, as well. Not all black people have huge, bright lips and very dark skin. It's offending to caricature people that way, exaggerating their features and so on.

Also, another point that should be made: the global community is becoming increasingly open and interconnected. You shouldn't only care about what might offend people in your own country, but what might also offend people across the globe.

 

[Treo360]

irony is that you guys got not a-goddamn clue about other cultures, so mind your own goddamn business

"You guys?" Touchy.

The ignorance statement goes for everyone, but don't let your Anti-America rage get the best of you there papi.

Let's derail this stupid thread

Yahoo front page

Interracial couple denied marriage license in Louisiana

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091016/ap_on_re_us/us_interracial_rebuff

Try again

 

[Canova]

"You guys?" Touchy.

The ignorance statement goes for everyone, but don't let your Anti-America rage get the best of you there papi.


Try again

yeah that's the best response your brain can come up with. Not one time you addressed my main point on how the U.S should mind their own business before meddling other countries business

 

[HarryHengst]

You're right. It isn't a good idea generalize like that, and I apologize. However, I hope you realize that Americans get grouped together like that all the time, probably even more so than Europeans. I haven't even read the thread about the interracial couple being denied a marriage license in Louisiana, and I already know that someone posted "ONLY IN AMERICA" on the first page. :lol



Curing a disease without eliminating its symptoms is like never having done anything at all. If the Netherlands, the US, or any other country wants to pride itself on having, for the most part, gotten past racism, it should attempt to remove everything that hints of racism, even in a playful or innocent way, from its cultural practices. Even if they are innocuous on the surface, racist cultural practices do affect the country's psyche in deceivingly subtle ways.

Its people like you who create racist images from things which aren't seen as racist.

 

[SmokyDave]

"Images of people with very dark skin and bright lips" reinforce stereotypes inherited not only from American culture, but from European culture, as well. Not all black people have huge, bright lips and very dark skin. It's offending to caricature people that way, exaggerating their features and so on.

Also, another point that should be made: the global community is becoming increasingly open and interconnected. You shouldn't only care about what might offend people in your own country, but what might also offend people across the globe.

No. No way. There are far too many people across the globe with far too many norms / practices to worry about offending all of them. Let's not even start to bring religion, particularly Islam, into this.

Unless the offence is targeted and intended, then we're talking about a real problem.

 

[HarryHengst]

"Images of people with very dark skin and bright lips" reinforce stereotypes inherited not only from American culture, but from European culture, as well. Not all black people have huge, bright lips and very dark skin. It's offending to caricature people that way, exaggerating their features and so on.

Also, another point that should be made: the global community is becoming increasingly open and interconnected. You shouldn't only care about what might offend people in your own country, but what might also offend people across the globe.

Haha, oh yes, wonderful. Lets create one big worldwide monoculture where noone can be offended by anything. Im sure that will create a wonderful world to live in.

 

[Kurtofan]

If that just blown up really big, or is it the size of an actual head? (which would be awesome)

No, it's blown up ,but it's still pretty big for me(I'd say it has the size of a hand)
anyway it's still tasty, regardless of the name

 

[gerg]

"Images of people with very dark skin and bright lips" reinforce stereotypes inherited not only from American culture, but from European culture, as well. Not all black people have huge, bright lips and very dark skin. It's offending to caricature people that way, exaggerating their features and so on.

Except, by itself, that image doesn't reinforce a stereotype. In itself, an image of a person of dark skin and with bright lips is just that - an image of a single person of dark skin and with bright lips. What makes that image stereotypical is a culture of stereotyping whereby it is purported that this singular image is representative of everyone of a particular kind or race. As a result, this image only becomes racist when understood in a racist context.

Of course, we might question whether or not we can ever really have a "singular image", but I wouldn't find it too controversial to argue that the stereotype enforces the qualities of the image, even if the image embodies the qualities of the stereotype.

Also, another point that should be made: the global community is becoming increasingly open and interconnected. You shouldn't only care about what might offend people in your own country, but what might also offend people across the globe.

I'd rather the power of free speech were upheld than we all suddenly became concerned about whom we might offend.

 

[dave is ok]

I understand the people in Holland being defensive about their holiday, but come on.

If Zwarte Piet got black from the ashes coming down the chimney, how do you explain the gigantic red lips and afro wigs that people also wear when dressing up like him?

 

[gerg]

If Zwarte Piet got black from the ashes coming down the chimney, how do you explain the gigantic red lips and afro wigs that people also wear when dressing up like him?

Because Zwarte Piet is a singular character with gigantic red lips and an afro wig who may or may not represent an entire race of people. For some, he's just a character with defining features in the same way that Mickey Mouse is defined by his big ears, white gloves, red shorts and yellow shoes.

 

[Grimmy]

I'm laughing at people who think the US has a monopoly on racism, in particular against blacks, and those who are clearly butthurt over American values being applied critically to European cultural traditions, as if they should be exempt from foreign scrutiny for some odd reason. I'm laughing especially hard at those crying "PC bullshit," "cultural imperialism," and "slavery guilt." American culture is derided all the time by European GAFers, and I seriously doubt that any of the apologies being used in this thread would be accepted if they were being used to defend America. Hypocrisy abounds; no surprise there.

Of course the US doesn't have a monopoly on racism. In fact, I'd wager that Asia is way more racist than either North America or Europe (ex. Russia). As an Asian person I can easily see how this is the case, and I've been very vocally critical of it (see the Hong Kong film Himalaya Singh (HK actor paints himself black to become stereotype of Indians for laughs)). BUT Sinterklass and Black Pete, to me, are not inherently racist. This is one exception that I *do* think Americans view differently because of their racial baggage. I'm not saying blackface is right (in fact, like I said I agreed with the reason for the furor over the incident in Australia), but the context for Sinterklass is, in my opinion, totally different, and modern-day beliefs in it are pretty much innocent.

Also, another point that should be made: the global community is becoming increasingly open and interconnected. You shouldn't only care about what might offend people in your own country, but what might also offend people across the globe.

:lol What kind of utopian dreamworld do you live in???

 

[Danielsan]

Some people in this thread need to take a chill pill.
I guess some of you guys are very passionate about the subjet at hand but at least keep it civil...

Because Zwarte Piet is a singular character with gigantic red lips and an afro wig who may or may not represent an entire race of people. For some, he's just a character with defining features in the same way that Mickey Mouse is defined by his big ears, white gloves, red shorts and yellow shoes.

Not entirely correct unless I misinterpreted your post.
Zwarte Pieten are multiple characters. Over the years childrens programs have created all kinds of individual characters who are all Zwarte Pieten. They all specialize in a certain activities like a Chef cook Piet and a music Piet.

 

[gerg]

Not entirely correct unless I misinterpreted your post.
Zwarte Pieten are multiple characters. Over the years childrens programs have created all kinds of individual characters who are all Zwarte Pieten. They all specialize in a certain activities like a Chef cook Piet and a music Piet.

Fair enough. What I mean to say is that it might be the case that the Zwarte Pieten represent their own individual, distinct group of people, rather than them representing stereotypical black people, in the same way that Santa's Elves do not represent a stereotypical "midget". (I don't know what the PC term would be.)

 

[Danielsan]

Fair enough. What I mean to say is that it might be the case that the Zwarte Pieten represent their own individual, distinct group of people, rather than them representing stereotypical black people, in the same way that Santa's Elves do not represent a stereotypical "midget". (I don't know what the PC term would be.)

Yeah I think that's correct.

The PC term for midget is absolutely hilarious by the way. Vertically impaired.
I'm not sure if it's actually used in practice but totally cracks me up. No offense to the people who suffer from or have family with a growth deficiency.

 

[furrygiblets]

People getting shocked at another's culture on GAF, there's a new one....

 

[dave is ok]

OK, I don't live in Holland so help me out. Which of these is the version you see most often?

A:

or


B:

If A, ok not racist.

If B, racist.

 

[Jill Sandwich]

Can all the black posters here frothing with rage over Zwarte Piet raise their hands?

 

[itsinmyveins]

Butthurt? Idk. It's boring, it makes you look ignorant and it's pretty annoying. Does this equal butthurt?

Would the "apologies" be accepted if they were being used to defend America? I think they would. Try defending thanksgiving (in regards to it being offensive to native americans) and we'll see if eurogaf is wielding the hypocrisy-wand about it. I dont think they will.

I don't think they'd be accepted in any greater regard actually, and I still don't know exactly what's offensive about thanksgiving though -- care to explain? Let's be honest here; the US gets a ton of criticism in every thread even related to politics. A lot of the time I guess it's kinda true, though.

 

[Danielsan]

OK, I don't live in Holland so help me out. Which of these is the version you see most often?

[images][/images]

If A, ok not racist.

If B, racist.

I have a chocolate letter lying right infront of me with this box art.

 

[dave is ok]

The PC term for midget is absolutely hilarious by the way. Vertically impaired.

I'm not sure if it's actually used in practice but totally cracks me up. No offense to the people who suffer from or have family with a growth deficiency.

Thats a joke, not an actual PC term. Most of them prefer 'little person' or 'dwarf' and HATE 'midget'

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

This is the U.S at its worst.

Why don't u guys mind your own business and stop telling other countries what they should and should not do. As long as it doesn't harm you, why the fuck you guys care? The last time I checked your country is far far from perfect; in the case of racism, I just heard an interracial couple was denied marriage license in Louisiana. Aside from racism, you have other problems too, your economy is fucked, health care is fucked up, foreclosures, ponzi schemes (now should other countries (mostly EU) whose citizens affected by your ponzi schemes impose economic sanction to your already fucked economy?!?) your debt is thru the roof, Iraq war, your citizens irresponsibility caused the worst recession since 1930, etc, etc, etc. Now take care those problems, and when you guys are near perfect maybe then you can start telling other countries what to do.

And lastly, stories I heard when I was kid is that Black Pete got his black face because he entered houses from the chimneys

the most hilariously irrelevant post of 2009

 

[dave is ok]

I have a chocolate letter lying right infront of me with this box art.

Eh, thats pretty bad. Really in most countries they would have softened his features over the years. Lighten the skin, shrink the lips, etc.

I expect it'll happen sooner or later, the P.C. police will be on this one eventually.

 

[Enosh]

:lol

Europeans aren't allowed to have traditions. You see, we're allowed to have "culture" but not Culture-culture.

this
multiculturism in europe means nothing else than "everything european is bad and racist and needs to be replaced"

it's kinda sad to see how evry aspect of european culture is slowly being devaluated and in the end replaced or removed

 

[Danielsan]

Thats a joke, not an actual PC term. Most of them prefer 'little person' or 'dwarf' and HATE 'midget'

Thanks for clearing that up.
However, I believe "dwarfs" and "midgets" are not the same thing.

 

[itsinmyveins]

this
multiculturism in europe means nothing else than "everything european is bad and racist and needs to be replaced"

it's kinda sad to see how evry aspect of european culture is slowly being devaluated and in the end replaced or removed

Which are these traditions that have been lost or replaced?

 

[Danielsan]

Eh, thats pretty bad. Really in most countries they would have softened his features over the years. Lighten the skin, shrink the lips, etc.

I expect it'll happen sooner or later, the P.C. police will be on this one eventually.

This is where you are making an error though.
The character on the box art is not meant to represent a black person.
These are simply the features of the Zwarte Pieten.

 

[Dude Abides]

Which are these traditions that have been lost or replaced?

You know, things like fascism, colonialism, slave-trading. Truly sad, the loss of these traditions.

This is where you are making an error though.
The character on the box art is not meant to represent a black person.
These are simply the features of the Zwarte Pieten.

Uh huh. Funny how "Black Pete" just happens to look like a widespread racist caricature. Such an amazing coincidence!

 

[ymmv]

Racist or cute?

If you're Dutch there's nothing wrong with this picture.

 

[itsinmyveins]

This is where you are making an error though.
The character on the box art is not meant to represent a black person.
These are simply the features of the Zwarte Pieten.

I'm no expert when it comes to dutch traditions and I'm also kinda lazy, but most of what I see on wiki seem to point to him being of african descent, although they also do mention the chimneys.

 

[ymmv]

Can all the black posters here frothing with rage over Zwarte Piet raise their hands?

I bet all of the protesters suffer from white guilt and belong to the PC police.