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[dave is ok]

This is where you are making an error though.
The character on the box art is not meant to represent a black person.
These are simply the features of the Zwarte Pieten.

...who is undoubtedly black

 

[Dude Abides]

Can all the black posters here frothing with rage over Zwarte Piet raise their hands?

Only black people are allowed to care about racist imagery. It's the law.

 

[ymmv]

I'm no expert when it comes to dutch traditions and I'm also kinda lazy, but most of what I see on wiki seem to point to him being of african descent, although they also do mention the chimneys.

Zwarte piet is a mixture of various influences. On the one hand he's the devil (black pete), on the other hand he's a servant for a bishop - although sinterklaas isn't really perceived as a religious patron. Sinterklaas is riding a white steed across the roofs which is reminiscent of Wodan/Odin riding the sky on his horse Slepinir. The celebration of Sinterklaas is a centuries old tradition, that's why Sinterklaas is a roman catholic bishop although the Netherlands is mostly protestant, that's also the reason why Zwarte Piet is wearing 16the century clothing. Sinterklaas is from Spain so Zwarte Piet used to be a moor (even though moors aren't black but Arabs)

 

[SmokyDave]

Funny how "Black Pete" just happens to look like a widespread racist caricature. Such an amazing coincidence!

What do you mean by 'widespread'? In the US? In the west? globally?

Also, do you perceive any malicious intent on the part of those partaking in the festival? Can you point to any negative stereotypes being perpetuated?

Only black people are allowed to care about racist imagery. It's the law.

Oh, I see. I'll lower my expectations for your response.

 

[Sol..]

This is pretty fucked up regardless of how yall see it. Especially in reference to all the chocolate dishes good fuckin' god. But it's all good, ye invented chicken and waffles. Gimmie a hug my dutch brothers.

yall did invent chicken and waffles right? *grabs stabbin knife*

 

[Kipz]

American self-righteousness when it comes to racism lately is really starting to bring my piss to a boil.

 

[Canova]

the most hilariously irrelevant post of 2009

how is it irrelevant? The thread title is 'A case for America to impose cultural sanctions '...because of another country's culture that some Americans find it offensive?!

It's pretty much the main topic of this thread whether or not the U.S should meddle with other countries issue, doesn't matter what the origin of Black Pete is

 

[Deleted member 1235]

. You shouldn't only care about what might offend people in your own country, but what might also offend people across the globe.

Totally disagree. There is far to many letter writing hand wringing exasperated people quick to scream 'think of the children' 'where's my lawyer this hot coffee burned me'

etc etc to bother with trying not to offend them.

 

[gerg]

Uh huh. Funny how "Black Pete" just happens to look like a widespread racist caricature. Such an amazing coincidence!

A widespread racist caricature dependent upon culture.

...who is undoubtedly black

It depends. If people associate the two, then it might be racist. However, from what has been posted in this thread, it doesn't appear that people move from Zwarte Piet to thinking of a black people to think of racism.

It's like when people use the word "gay" to mean "bad" without going through the mental process of "X is bad, gay people are bad, therefore X is gay".

 

[EmCeeGramr]

The current image of Zwarte Piet comes from the 1800s, and is that of a foolish servant with bright red lips, big curly black hair, and dark black skin, and was described in those times as coming from Africa. That image didn't just develop in a vacuum; that kind of portrayal was well-known in Western society when the modern Zwarte Piet was created. The chimney explanation would have worked for the original idea of "the Devil portrayed by a man covered in ashes," but that changed into something different, something undeniably based on racial stereotypes, over 150 years ago.

In contrast, the idea of Santa's elves is based on concepts of leprechauns, gnomes, and other magical "faerie folk," down to the pointy ears and caps. People with stunted height have been ridiculed in modern Western culture by comparing them to elves, sure, but it's not like the idea of Christmas elves originates from some long-standing stereotype of little people being magical people with pointy ears who make toys all day.


I understand that people in Dutch-speaking countries love the tradition due to its fun nature and that they point out that everybody over there accepts it. However, I remind you that minstrel shows and the like were considered fun traditions in America for decades that everybody (including many blacks) accepted. I don't think that Zwarte Piet should be banned or that the Netherlands should be boycotted or anything crazy like that, but I hope that it's toned down over time and that the Dutch realize the implications of the practice.

 

[itsinmyveins]

What do you mean by 'widespread'? In the US? In the west? globally?

Also, do you perceive any malicious intent on the part of those partaking in the festival? Can you point to any negative stereotypes being perpetuated?

I'm sure there's no malicious intent on the part of the people celebrating it. Point still stands though; it certainly looks like a racist caricature of black people.

EmCee:

I just wanted to add that I think most people would look at Zwarte Piet and see a racist caricature, whether they're from Europe or the US. Other than that I agree with everything you said.

 

[Goldrusher]

And yes Negro Kiss, not *insert n-word* kiss.
Pretty big difference.

It's the exact same word in Dutch.

 

[SmokyDave]

I'm sure there's no malicious intent on the part of the people celebrating it. Point still stands though; it certainly looks like a racist caricature of black people.

Well, that was kinda my other point. Does it look like a racist caricature to the Dutch? No. Does it look like it to Americans used to seeing very similar images used in a very different context? Yes. That's why I asked you to clarify 'widespread racial caricature', because it actually isn't widespread, it's confined to a small proportion of the world (not just the US though, here in the UK 'blackface' would be frowned upon).

I'd like to know if we can agree on the differences between a racial caricature and a racist caricature. To my mind, there is a difference.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

The current image of Zwarte Piet comes from the 1800s, and is that of a foolish servant with bright red lips, big curly black hair, and dark black skin, and was described in those times as coming from Africa. That image didn't just develop in a vacuum; that kind of portrayal was well-known in Western society when the modern Zwarte Piet was created. The chimney explanation would have worked for the original idea of "the Devil portrayed by a man covered in ashes," but that changed into something different, something undeniably based on racial stereotypes, over 150 years ago.

In contrast, the idea of Santa's elves is based on concepts of leprechauns, gnomes, and other magical "faerie folk," down to the pointy ears and caps. People with stunted height have been ridiculed in modern Western culture by comparing them to elves, sure, but it's not like the idea of Christmas elves originates from some long-standing stereotype of little people being magical people with pointy ears who make toys all day.


I understand that people in Dutch-speaking countries love the tradition due to its fun nature and that they point out that everybody over there accepts it. However, I remind you that minstrel shows and the like were considered fun traditions in America for decades that everybody (including many blacks) accepted. I don't think that Zwarte Piet should be banned or that the Netherlands should be boycotted or anything crazy like that, but I hope that it's toned down over time and that the Dutch realize the implications of the practice.

well that's a well put dissenting view.

 

[Zabka]

Blackface started in the US in the early 19th century and was popularized around the world soon after. People can talk about the modern day interpretation all they want, but this character's appearance originated from racist imagery in the US.

Not my country though, so they can do whatever the hell they want.

 

[Danielsan]

It's the exact same word in Dutch.

Not really. As the direct translation of "Neger" is "Negro".

 

[Dude Abides]

What do you mean by 'widespread'? In the US? In the west? globally?

All three.

Also, do you perceive any malicious intent on the part of those partaking in the festival? Can you point to any negative stereotypes being perpetuated?

Why do you think this is relevant? If I make a character called "Dumb Nigger" but don't realize that "nigger" is a racist word, does that mean the character isn't racistt?

Oh, I see. I'll lower my expectations for your response.

Stupid posts get glib responses.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Well, that was kinda my other point. Does it look like a racist caricature to the Dutch? No. Does it look like it to Americans used to seeing very similar images used in a very different context? Yes. That's why I asked you to clarify 'widespread racial caricature', because it actually isn't widespread, it's confined to a small proportion of the world (not just the US though, here in the UK 'blackface' would be frowned upon).

I'm not american by the way. That type of imagery might not be that widespread or in use nowdays (well, other than in Holland) but I'm sure most people would, if presented with it, see it as a racist caricature.

 

[MrHicks]

you could look at zwarte piet as more of a "supernatural entity" these days
they aren't really looked at as ordinary humans perse

1)sinterklaas= immortal (hes centuries old) oldguy who magicly brings presents to all chrildren in 1 night every year
3)zwarte piet= servants in charge of delivering said presents who can magicly fit into every chimney, have supernatural feats of acrobacy (prob immortal too)

look at it in ways of mythology

 

[Arjen]

Except, by itself, that image doesn't reinforce a stereotype. In itself, an image of a person of dark skin and with bright lips is just that - an image of a single person of dark skin and with bright lips. What makes that image stereotypical is a culture of stereotyping whereby it is purported that this singular image is representative of everyone of a particular kind or race. As a result, this image only becomes racist when understood in a racist context.

Of course, we might question whether or not we can ever really have a "singular image", but I wouldn't find it too controversial to argue that the stereotype enforces the qualities of the image, even if the image embodies the qualities of the stereotype.



I'd rather the power of free speech were upheld than we all suddenly became concerned about whom we might offend.

You nailed it, zwarte piet is a fictional character who happens to have a black face.
Thats all there is to it.
I never heard that it could be considered racist until a couple years ago when the PC police finally found a new thing to bitch about

 

[CultureClearance]

I really don't know what to think of this...but one thing pisses me off a bit.

This crap is obviously a jab at black people. It's "blackface." Is that racist? I dunno...but Stop using the stupid chimney sweep bs back-story to hide it. Admit it for what it is, please.

Red over-sized lips, afro, everything...perfect blackface. The fact that people are hiding behind the dumb chimney back-story kind of makes me think that there's more self-guilt and self-shame to it than Euro-Gaf wants to admit. Ironically, Atheist Gaf is first to knock down religious traditions that are stupid and are based around silly obsolete tales and cultures, but this is ok.

Racist? I dunno. Maybe. Stupid holiday based around a kind of sad obsolete pasttime? Definitely. Don't you guys have anything better to do or better to celebrate?

 

[Goldrusher]

Not really. As the direct translation of "Neger" is "Negro".

Not really ? Then what's Dutch for nigger ?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

You nailed it, zwarte piet is a fictional character who happens to have a black face.
Thats all there is to it.
I never heard that it could be considered racist until a couple years ago when the PC police finally found a new thing to bitch about

That doesn't fly. Zwarte Piet doesn't just "happen to have a black face." He has all the characteristics of a 1800's depiction of a stereotypical black person. That's not a coincidence.


Imagine if it was a figure named 'Geel Jan' who looked like this:

And then claiming that only "the PC police" could possibly see racism in such a harmless depiction of a funny figure.

 

[Kabouter]

Not really ? Then what's Dutch for nigger ?

Nikker.

 

[gerg]

That doesn't fly. Zwarte Piet doesn't just "happen to have a black face." He has all the characteristics of a 1800's depiction of a stereotypical black person. That's not a coincidence.

The historic ancestries of the character are more or less irrelevant to its current reception.

The point isn't that the character may not have been created out of racist sentiment, but that nowadays it doesn't in Holland.

 

[Dyno]

Rascist? Yeah in my opinion it is but Dutch and Euro GAF may have a long-winded explanation to absolve themselves. Really though the simple explaination is that your parents introduced you to this 'tradition' as theirs taught them. Rascism is taught young.

How about this angle though, seeing as you are at your core good, smart people. The tradition is very rude and insensitive. That's hard to argue because any reasonable person should understand that this is offensive to black people. I'm sure it makes others around you, your fellow citizens, feel bad and even scared. Why then would you walk the streets and make people feel that way? How do you feel about shelving your respect to others during this holiday season?

It is not for Dutch people to ask for tolerance on this issue. This tradition didn't start spontaneously - or benignly - but as something built upon something else, something evil. It is a natural progression for a country that is infamous for its proficiency in the slave trade to have a holiday that is demeaning to a race of former slaves.

It needs to stop. Surely there are better things in Dutch culture to venerate than this.

 

[besada]

So, I'm curious. Are any of the Dutch posting in here black? I know it's a long shot, considering the Netherlands is 80% white, but I'd really be curious to hear a black Dutch person's opinion regarding Zwarte Piet.

I hunted around and found this opinion, but it doesn't exactly match those of the Dutch posters in the thread:

http://www.ferris.edu/JIMCROW/question/jan05/

 

[Goldrusher]

Nikker.

Oh right, I see.
Haven't heard that in ages though. And I don't think I ever heard it in Belgium. Here, neger is used in that context.

 

[Purkake4]

Well, this thread went to hell almost as fast as the last gypsy thread.

 

[lunarworks]

I'm Canadian, but my father is Dutch. As a kid, I was exposed to the whole Sinterklass thing and Zwarte Piet. I never saw anything racist in it. I just thought Piet was his helper, much like Santa has elves.

 

[zoku88]

Rascist? Yeah in my opinion it is but Dutch and Euro GAF may have a long-winded explanation to absolve themselves. Really though the simple explaination is that your parents introduced you to this 'tradition' as theirs taught them. Rascism is taught young.

How about this angle though, seeing as you are at your core good, smart people. The tradition is very rude and insensitive. That's hard to argue because any reasonable person should understand that this is offensive to black people. I'm sure it makes others around you, your fellow citizens, feel bad and even scared. Why then would you walk the streets and make people feel that way? How do you feel about shelving your respect to others during this holiday season?

It is not for Dutch people to ask for tolerance on this issue. This tradition didn't start spontaneously - or benignly - but as something built upon something else, something evil. It is a natural progression for a country that is infamous for its proficiency in the slave trade to have a holiday that is demeaning to a race of former slaves.

It needs to stop. Surely there are better things in Dutch culture to venerate than this.

You make lots of assumptions. You first assume that it is offensive to black people. Is it? I mean, if this were to start right now in America, I would be angry. But I find no reason to be angry with this, because I understand that this tradition is not meant to attack me unlike blackface theatre.

You say that they're being insensitive, but I think you're the one that's being most insensitive. You're not even trying to look from a frame of reference in the inside, and you're only looking at it from an outside point of view, which is irrelevant, since the only people that this traditional could really affect is the people that live there.

 

[X26]

That's a pretty messed up celebration

 

[Particle Physicist]

.

 

[Hilbert]

So, I'm curious. Are any of the Dutch posting in here black? I know it's a long shot, considering the Netherlands is 80% white, but I'd really be curious to hear a black Dutch person's opinion regarding Zwarte Piet.

I hunted around and found this opinion, but it doesn't exactly match those of the Dutch posters in the thread:

http://www.ferris.edu/JIMCROW/question/jan05/

That was an excellent read, thank you.

 

[X26]

I'm confused: Is the celebration where they put on blackface and eat chocolate slave hands (the fuck?) and this zwarte piet related?

 

[dinazimmerman]

Since you are all laughing at my previous comment, let me pose a question.

First, some background information. In El Salvador, a small country in Central America where my parents were born, there are no black people, or more accurately, the number of black people there is very, very, very small. Recently, a few have immigrated there from bordering countries, but for our purposes, let's assume the population of black people there is zero (because that's also what the official statistics say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Central_America). The reasons for this anomaly are varied, but one of most straightforward reasons is that, since El Salvador only has a Pacific coastline, it did not participate in the Atlantic slave trade.

OK, since you've all decided that it only matters what people in your own country might find offensive, is it safe to assume that Salvadorans should not be criticized for expressing their racist opinions of black people (that they're lazy, loud, and obnoxious, stereotypes they've picked up from foreign films, songs, etc.)? After all, Salvadorans shouldn't care what people from other parts of world think, right?

The main reason why Europeans want to be free to offend anyone they want from any place on the planet is that they don't want to feel prohibited from criticizing Islam at all. I sympathize with them in this case, and I believe free speech should be protected to a certain degree. The intolerance of some religious belief on the basis that it might promote the violation of human rights is not the same thing as intolerance of ethnicity or skin color.

Another thing, I believe overt racism does not exist in Europe on the same level as it does in the US primarily because blacks don't make up 13% of the population (the most I think is 6% in France). Muslim immigrants do make up a greater percentage of the population than blacks, and what do you know, xenophobia against them is rampant. So it's not that Europeans are endowed with superior moral judgment on matters of race. They just don't come in contact with blacks as often as do Americans. Both the near absence and heavy presence of a certain ethnic group within a community can foster racist attitudes towards them.

 

[PhoenixDark]

What is and isn't racist will be invariably linked to cultural standards and cultural norms. Furthermore, I'd argue that racism almost always lies with intent. As a result, I find it hard to believe that one can instantly scream "racist!" without considering these other factors.

I agree with about personal intent, which is what I said in my original post as well. Nor did I suggest the people who do this are racist. But, it's impossible to deny that they are propagating racist imagery, regardless of their intent. If I tape my eyes back, dress in asian garb and start going "ching chong ching chong whateva ur say mr wong" or whatever, to entertain my friends, I'm demonstrating racist stereotypes. My intent may not have been to hurt anyone, but that's no excuse for me parading ignorance around.

 

[morningbus]

It has been my observation that those who decry political correctness are the fattest and ugliest amongst us.

Discuss.

 

[dinazimmerman]

I agree with about personal intent, which is what I said in my original post as well. Nor did I suggest the people who do this are racist. But, it's impossible to deny that they are propagating racist imagery, regardless of their intent. If I tape my eyes back, dress in asian garb and start going "ching chong ching chong whateva ur say mr wong" or whatever, to entertain my friends, I'm demonstrating racist stereotypes. My intent may not have been to hurt anyone, but that's no excuse for me parading ignorance around.

This.

 

[MrHicks]

I'm confused: Is the celebration where they put on blackface and eat chocolate slave hands (the fuck?) and this zwarte piet related?

the chocolate slavehand eating is TOTAL FABRICATION
seriously that article is full of lies

 

[itsinmyveins]

Another thing, I believe overt racism does not exist in Europe on the same level as it does in the US primarily because blacks don't make up 13% of the population (the most I think is 6% in France). Muslim immigrants do make up a greater percentage of the population than blacks, and what do you know, xenophobia against them is rampant. So it's not that Europeans are endowed with superior moral judgment on matters of race. They just don't come in contact with blacks as often as do Americans. Both the complete absence and heavy presence of a certain ethnic group within a community can foster racist attitudes towards them.

I think you can find overt racism to a similar degree though, but -- like you say -- mainly towards people from say middle eastern descent, which where I live is one of the larger minorities.

 

[X26]

the chocolate slavehand eating is TOTAL FABRICATION
seriously that article is full of lies

:lol

Good to know, it does sound utterly ridiculous

 

[Scipius]

I'm confused: Is the celebration where they put on blackface and eat chocolate slave hands (the fuck?) and this zwarte piet related?

No. The text in the OP is the work of a troll. Enjoy it, but ignore.

This thread is early this year (much like the pepernoten)! One of the pleasures of Sinterklaas is watching the culture-shocked Americans and Dutchies fight it out.

 

[MechDX]

INvade Holland! Where is Cheney at?

 

[[Nintex]]

INvade Holland! Where is Cheney at?

I agree, bring us freedom America!

 

[SapientWolf]

Well, this thread went to hell almost as fast as the last gypsy thread.

Not even close. The gyspy thread was a killing field.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Not even close. The gyspy thread was a killing field.

I remember that. It was glorious. The Europeans never saw it coming.

 

[MechDX]

I agree, bring us freedom America!

I'll give you freedom up your ass you wood shoe wearing bastard!

 

[Kestastrophe]

I agree with about personal intent, which is what I said in my original post as well. Nor did I suggest the people who do this are racist. But, it's impossible to deny that they are propagating racist imagery, regardless of their intent. If I tape my eyes back, dress in asian garb and start going "ching chong ching chong whateva ur say mr wong" or whatever, to entertain my friends, I'm demonstrating racist stereotypes. My intent may not have been to hurt anyone, but that's no excuse for me parading ignorance around.

I agree. I have never heard of this before, so I started looking at Wikipedia:

"At Zwarte Piet's first illustrational appearance around 1850, the character was depicted as a regular foreigner from southern Europe, as envisioned in that time, but within half a century Zwarte Piet inherited many of the classic darky icons, contemporaneous with the spread of darky iconography. Blackfaced, googly-eyed, red-lipped Zwarte Piet dolls, die cuts and displays adorn store windows alongside brightly packaged and displayed, holiday merchandise."

I don't think it has racist intent, but the depiction of black people in this way, regardless of the historical connotations, is racially insensitive at best.

 

[gerg]

I agree with about personal intent, which is what I said in my original post as well. Nor did I suggest the people who do this are racist. But, it's impossible to deny that they are propagating racist imagery, regardless of their intent. If I tape my eyes back, dress in asian garb and start going "ching chong ching chong whateva ur say mr wong" or whatever, to entertain my friends, I'm demonstrating racist stereotypes. My intent may not have been to hurt anyone, but that's no excuse for me parading ignorance around.

Support your claims - why is this undeniably racist imagery?

Heck, I'd argue that your own example betrays your point. There is nothing inherently racist about what you'd suggest. The reason why we find it racist is because of the way such imagery has been used in the past. I'd deny the ability for an image to be inherently anything, really, in the first place.