Stereogatari
Banned
American politics is reminding me more and more of Turkish politics everyday.
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A German exchange student's account of "Trump Country" - in defense of rural USA
- Thread starter Fritz
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I read large parts of the bible. If there are passages dealing with global warming I must have missed them.
I get that some people are religious and "prefer" the story of creation over the evolution theory. Everyone is free to believe what they want. What I don't get that these are almost always the same people that question the bias of the media but not the religious stuff that they were taught but accept that as fact. Though that is probably a bigger problem in the USA than here in Germany.
This country feels like it's made up of 2 different echo chambers that try their best to pretend the other one doesn't exist.
After the election I haven't seen one person person at work (or on Facebook for that matter) that was happy with the results. Everything discussed has a certain air of gloom, and a bit of disbelief and shell shock. I'm sure there are plenty of Trump supporters near me, they just don't want people to yell at them so so they likely keep their opinions private or share only with their closest friends and family.
Similarly, I do believe there are other parts of this country where pure joy has erupted based on the results, and couldn't be happier; such as this place in Minnesota.
It's already been said to the point of exhaustion, but no one can really understate what a big divide there is in this country.
"The United States also scored in the top 10 on the indexs two other measures of altruism: helping strangers in need (first) and volunteering (fifth). Seventy-nine percent of Americans surveyed said they had helped a stranger in the previous month, while 44 percent said they had volunteered. The United States was the only country in the report to rank in the top 10 on all three measures."
https://www.philanthropy.com/article/United-States-Ranks-9th-in-the/152197
Google more, and you will get more of the same results.
not a choice.
Technosteve
Banned
americans are selfish, midwestern americans doubly so
Darryl M R
Member
You are still wrong.
America, Rural America specifically, does not have an issue helping "strangers" in their community but it is clear that anything outside of the line of view is out of their minds as well. One strong pillar of Christianity is volunteering and giving back. That doesn't have to mean giving to people that do not look like you.
Look at policy decisions in the United States that are aimed at benefiting specific groups of people either people of one background or people in a different state. If 79% of America felt that way then 100% of policies aimed at helping others would get passed.
https://thinkprogress.org/31-senate...r-aid-for-home-states-1ea0a82683e0#.qylfj051n
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-louisiana-floods-20160822-snap-story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ge-while-mulling-south-carolina-flood-relief/
Rural America is demanding jobs that are in a dying industry and at the same time their current political affiliation would have people argue against Affirmative Action. They don't want new solutions and industries. They want what they had.
chillybright
Banned
That many posters find this article fascinating is a pretty good echo indicator of Gaf as a whole.
That said, organized religion has no place in modern society. The only problem is how to get rid of it with little repercussions.
That said, organized religion has no place in modern society. The only problem is how to get rid of it with little repercussions.
Ron Swanson would never approve of a glorious lack of education.
Bubbles telling others to get out of bubbles.
Well... yeah.
Republicanism isn't a gene. Their beliefs aren't hereditary. Of course they're learning this and of course it's coming up in an environment that's heavily indoctrinating. Were people truly expecting otherwise?
You could even see from just one year that Paulina's behaviour was changing because of this.
But on the flip side... how does this help? She couldn't change a single mind. All she could do was keep quiet and pretend to go along with them. All the cries on Gaf about "understanding their position!" and "we just need to reach out to them!" seem pretty hollow. This is the life they know and that's what they'll follow.
Perhaps this is why the DNC campaign wrote those areas off as Trump supporters? They liken Obama to Hitler simply for trying to give them and everyone they know healthcare. Do you seriously think her making a one-time stop in their small town was going to sway them otherwise?
Sure, we shouldn't be hasty to judge them but even taking a measured approach... they're still stupid. They're still voting solely on bigotry and hatred against their own self interest because they've been fed a crock of lies and shit and drank it all down. We can understand why they're stupid but what does it change? They won't listen to outreach and they'll keep supporting people like Trump.
But I guess it's comforting to know they'll bake a lovely apple pie while smiling that their chosen electorates remove rights of minorities and kick out immigrants. That's something I suppose.
Republicanism isn't a gene. Their beliefs aren't hereditary. Of course they're learning this and of course it's coming up in an environment that's heavily indoctrinating. Were people truly expecting otherwise?
You could even see from just one year that Paulina's behaviour was changing because of this.
But on the flip side... how does this help? She couldn't change a single mind. All she could do was keep quiet and pretend to go along with them. All the cries on Gaf about "understanding their position!" and "we just need to reach out to them!" seem pretty hollow. This is the life they know and that's what they'll follow.
Perhaps this is why the DNC campaign wrote those areas off as Trump supporters? They liken Obama to Hitler simply for trying to give them and everyone they know healthcare. Do you seriously think her making a one-time stop in their small town was going to sway them otherwise?
Sure, we shouldn't be hasty to judge them but even taking a measured approach... they're still stupid. They're still voting solely on bigotry and hatred against their own self interest because they've been fed a crock of lies and shit and drank it all down. We can understand why they're stupid but what does it change? They won't listen to outreach and they'll keep supporting people like Trump.
But I guess it's comforting to know they'll bake a lovely apple pie while smiling that their chosen electorates remove rights of minorities and kick out immigrants. That's something I suppose.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
Is free state college tuition a realistic solution to this problem? Like if all this rural 18 year old kids have an easy path to a real higher education, perhaps they can break out.
There are plenty of people who think this way in more suburban areas with even better access to information and the world around them, as well as money and decent jobs.
While I do see the problems in these rural communities, an explanation does not equal an excuse.
Nevertheless, the only way to correct these issues is to try and help these communities. The happier we all are, (hopefully) the less we scapegoat others for our unhappiness.
While I do see the problems in these rural communities, an explanation does not equal an excuse.
Nevertheless, the only way to correct these issues is to try and help these communities. The happier we all are, (hopefully) the less we scapegoat others for our unhappiness.
Klappdrachen
Member
Sounds like a case of Stockholm syndrome
Helping a stranger is an incredibly vague category that it could even be interpreted as telling a stranger the time. Volunteering can also be intoxicated because people may lie about it because her character is at stake in the survey. I'd imagine this is an aggregate from different specific questions that result in these numbers, but pollsters can be so fucking lazy that you never know.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
And people wonder why the left can seem overbearing.
If you go to people who were raised in ignorance and call them idiots, or racists, or whatever, of course theyre going to push back. It sucks, but you have to realize there are people who have fundamentally different beliefs than you or I, and what we care about is not necessarily what they care about.
Hydrargyrus
Member
This is something scary to read...
vagenda is my new favorite word
Kind of surreal to read the replies in this thread. Having grown up in MN, I can identify with the people here and I identify them as real people, but if I were an outsider to this thread I'd see a lot of parallels between breaking up this Minnesotan echo chamber and breaking up the indoctrination that leads to radical Islam in certain corners of the Middle East.
I guess the problem is essentially the same between the two. Neither groups actually want to be re-educated, and both groups actually feel like they are the ones with the moral high ground. Though I will admit that the few posts that basically say "fuck 'em" sting a little bit more when they're talking about me.
I guess the problem is essentially the same between the two. Neither groups actually want to be re-educated, and both groups actually feel like they are the ones with the moral high ground. Though I will admit that the few posts that basically say "fuck 'em" sting a little bit more when they're talking about me.
I already showed links to rankings of US, and aid to many countries that have all kinds of ethnic backgrounds. You seem to make it a race item, we will have to disagree then.
Darryl M R
Member
My question is then what do you do when you have a racist.
Can logic be twisted to argue that someone is being racist by saying all blacks are inferior and only got into college because of Affirmative Action but that they are not racist?
When do you stop calling a spade a spade.
There is a big issue of generalizing everyone, but when you have specific people do you not address them? It should not matter if you were raised to think your actions of assuming inferiority was a bad thing.
You are doing the exact same thing by grouping all rural and Christianity.
DragonSworne
Banned
100% of racists say they are not racists.
I don't give much weight into what people claim, particularly on a survey or poll.
Darryl M R
Member
How about you explain yourself on this one because you made zero sense. And please point out where I grouped a bunch of people.
GIANKRATOS
Member
These areas really need better education. Like, real education, based on facts and logic. You need to separate education from religion. Old people are probably beyond salvation, but if you want things to change, Kids are the future, and they need to be educated, not indoctrinated.
This is just my view as an outsider, so take it for what it is. But i have to say that i had an entirely different view of the us.
This is just my view as an outsider, so take it for what it is. But i have to say that i had an entirely different view of the us.
jakonovski
Member
Yikes, that sounded downright Lovecraftian. Did they have fish like eyes?
Is that your excuse for equating minorities arming themselves against the threat of bigotry to hulking up and going to war against the US government?
Because if that's the case, after reading this piece, I kind of understand where you're coming from... and still don't forgive you for the damaging views you hold.
I hope the college education isn't as single sided in those areas. Otherwise, the divide will simple get worse over time. I can see a more moderate teacher before college level would just get fired. I remember going to junior high school in Texas. As an Asian there, it was not exactly easy but I was lucky that teachers were open minded.
Cross thread discussion?
In that other thread I was pointing out the hypocrisy of anti-gun GAF. It's very convenient that on a forum with such an anti-gun sentiment, all of a sudden we're talking about getting a posse together and marching on Washington. Gosh it's convenient that there are all these guns lying around when you feel like the government no longer represents you, isn't it? lol
And for the record, I'm not a gun guy and I've voted Democrat in the last 3 elections. Don't dismiss me as a red-stater.
They are already trying their hardest to apply the Fox news bubble onto the internet sphere, by using sites like Breitbart to act as a sort of Fox news to keep them ignorant on the rest of the news on the internet. Those kinds of sites will just keep spreading distrust o all ther forms of media to keep perptuating that bubble.
Maybe it's not the government's business to help them.
If your policies work, implement them in the states where you can and make them want the same instead of trying to drag them along unwillingly. This has been the republican strategy for decades.
It's supposed to be the whole reason we still have states.
I'm not American but I grew up in a small town. I can "understand" these people but I can't excuse them. Their actions contradict their beliefs. Many are quite happy to inflict misery on others (like voting for blatant racists to remove rights and protections of minorities) despite their good Christian backgrounds.
Your comment of these rural communities being close to radical Islam one is a pointed one. Especially considering how these rural communities would like to address radical Islam and Muslim immigrants.
I can understand how the "fuck 'em" comments would hurt. But they're directed at the people who are essentially comfortable in being hypocrits. They're the people who, no matter how many facts you present or attempts to educate them in order for them to understand empathy for those they don't understand, will continue on despising the "others."
It's hard to be sympathetic to these people when they can't be sympathetic to others.
Imperfected
Member
To be fair, "Are Germans always drunk?" is a reasonable question that I still have after living for two years in Landstuhl.
I grew up in rural East Germany, a classmate of mine had a daily two hour commute thanks to living in a remote village with a bad connection to public transport. Wasn't so bad. School made a big point in education about nationalsocialism from grade school on. German education systems, not even the saxon one are not that terrible. We are ruled by central parties that would both be left in the USA.
Not that there aren't problems with right wingers, but few whole communities like described in the article.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
When there are racists in a homogenous community, it becomes tough. They still have their community to fall back on. Theyre not going to want to engage in a discussion over their beliefs from an outsider like you or me, because they know best because that is how their community has shaped them.
Whats the answer, though? If I had my way I would break up these communities and force them into a diverse one. Make them live in a diverse one so their children can grow up in a melting pot, and they will see that everyone is a person trying to live their life.
As it stands though, until diversity is forced upon these homogenous, rural areas, they will continue to breed their ignorance. I understand that. I understand that no matter how much you say till youre red in the face that they need to stop living in ignorance, they will continue to do so.
Its a sad reality. You cant force groups of people that are isolated and leak their own truths in to change, so the second best thing is to understand that they have different needs. You cant ignore these people in the grand scheme of politics either, because they are a formidable voting block. To engage with them is a catch 22 for politicians. For everyone else tho, we can thankfully steer clear of them.
autoduelist
Member
I'm glad she opened her eyes to other ways of thinking. The culture wars are just that, culture wars. The way the left views things like racism are pretty much exactly the way small towns view an issue like abortion - there is no discussing it, there is no rational explanation, there is no 'understanding' the other side, it's just pure evil. So both sides shut down and there is no communication, because without understanding there is no conversation, no debate, no learning, no progress.
Salena Zito, in the Atlantic, said: "When he makes claims like this, the press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally."
These are wise words. Trump supporters didn't freak out about every last piece of garbage Trump spouted, because they don't take him literally. They forgave his excesses and focused on his message - things the left didn't take seriously, or often even hear at all. As Moore pointed out, Trump spoke directly to the rust belt, promising tariffs on auto manufacturers who continued to move jobs overseas. Those supporters didn't support Trump because he was racist, but because promised to protect their jobs, something HRC would never do.
Trump is awful. But he spoke to America, and he didn't use the words of politicians, but crassness. And some people needed to hear that, because even if they didn't agree with him on every issue, they were sick of the sanitized mumbo jumbo coming out of other politicians mouths. Trump offered change.
I don't support Trump (nor Hillary). But I have lived in big cities in the US and in Europe, and lived on both coasts of the US. I'm not happy Trump is president, but I'm happy Clinton isn't. I'd have said that in reverse had we had another outcome. But the absolute lack of understanding of the 'other side' isn't progress, and it isn't progressive. It's stiffling, it's blinding, and it prevents moving forward. The only way to convince someone of a point is to talk to them, hurling insults does not change minds, it shuts them.
Salena Zito, in the Atlantic, said: "When he makes claims like this, the press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally."
These are wise words. Trump supporters didn't freak out about every last piece of garbage Trump spouted, because they don't take him literally. They forgave his excesses and focused on his message - things the left didn't take seriously, or often even hear at all. As Moore pointed out, Trump spoke directly to the rust belt, promising tariffs on auto manufacturers who continued to move jobs overseas. Those supporters didn't support Trump because he was racist, but because promised to protect their jobs, something HRC would never do.
Trump is awful. But he spoke to America, and he didn't use the words of politicians, but crassness. And some people needed to hear that, because even if they didn't agree with him on every issue, they were sick of the sanitized mumbo jumbo coming out of other politicians mouths. Trump offered change.
I don't support Trump (nor Hillary). But I have lived in big cities in the US and in Europe, and lived on both coasts of the US. I'm not happy Trump is president, but I'm happy Clinton isn't. I'd have said that in reverse had we had another outcome. But the absolute lack of understanding of the 'other side' isn't progress, and it isn't progressive. It's stiffling, it's blinding, and it prevents moving forward. The only way to convince someone of a point is to talk to them, hurling insults does not change minds, it shuts them.
Indoctrination is what this girl is describing. Yikes. She is lucky to not have brown skin - her experience would be much, much worse in that town. As it is her classmates treated her like 'that odd girl' instead of 'that subhuman monkey who is probably muslim and and a lesbian, you can tell by her skin color'.
EDIT: I suspect she will be re-evaluating her dating choices when she realizes an ultra-conservative, brain-washed husband might try to indoctrinate her kids too.
EDIT: I suspect she will be re-evaluating her dating choices when she realizes an ultra-conservative, brain-washed husband might try to indoctrinate her kids too.
Darryl M R
Member
I do not expect their gut reaction to be "Hey please share with us. We like that idea."
Instead "They are cutting the line." or "Waste of tax dollars." Because they are just hearing that the other side is taking away from them. Would Republicans or Fox have any reason to praise a liberal law? Trump attacked the ACA but it is being reported that instead of slashing it like he said he wants to alter it. It seems like a policy isn't good if it comes from the other side--until elections are over and you can pivot.
Have conservative states embraced charter schools? (which are always up for debates in cities)
Also what policies have Republicans been passing that help their state long term that have been copied by other states?
(Genuinely asking)*
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rocketskates
Member
Noooo only 1 video is available to watch in my country (USA)
What is there to understand about a racist other than what made them that way? Are we supposed to entertain these views and treat them as equally valid positions to take? Are things like equal treatment and rights for all really up for debate?
And, as far as 'confronting' the problem, you'll find it exceedingly hard to get them to consider any evidence or argument that doesn't fit with their worldview. The internet and the availability of information was supposed to help us move forward. Instead, it has provided the means to live in your own personal bubble.
TimeEffect
Member
What the what heck is this hahahaha.
Seriously??
Yeah, whats the big bang doing in biology class?
He spoke to bigots.
Darryl M R
Member
It is very sad. In my ideal world these communities would not protect the racists, and bigots.
This would not only show that certain actions are not allowed but that these communities empathize with people that do not look like them.
Almost bigger than actual empathy is the perception of empathy from the "other" for you. Because that will decide how large you open your heart. I choose to believe that Rural America is the loud minority and quiet majority when it comes to racism.
But seeing how the KKK isn't run out of town by communities does not make me feel that others have empathy for me.
My question to Rural America is what is the equivalent for them? What makes them feel like there is no empathy for them and what is the size of that?
This is where most usually talk about how people try to pass policies that help rural Americans but they are not in support of those policies but that doesn't get us anywhere.
One thing I will not budge on is social issues.
Racism is evil and wrong. There is no justification for it. Racists are capable of change and that should be the goal. But there should not be an inch in making racism feel accepted.
Green Yoshi
Member
Because of Angela Merkel and her refugee policy?
Are teens in rural america not allowed to surf in the internet? In puberty many teens want to be different than their parents. And do they never watch American movies, series and Late Night Shows, that promote liberal views?
How can the American education system pass off creationism as a full points solution to biology? That's downright crazy! If you teach at school, you have to teach science - religious courses excluded.
You will never get these backsided views out of people if you don't even teach an alternative in school and broaden their horizons.
Are teachers not protected by the government? Can every parent influence them if they don't agree with what is taught?
You will never get these backsided views out of people if you don't even teach an alternative in school and broaden their horizons.
Are teachers not protected by the government? Can every parent influence them if they don't agree with what is taught?
A one school town =/= the entire American education system. Although many republicans are doing their best to change it to be that way.
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