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[chicko1983]

The country has known about this stuff for years. Don't be naive, most Australians don't care about brown people, especially if they come here on a boat.

Also, if any one didn't realise, we elected four senators from a Trump/Le Pen/Farage esque white nationalist party in the most recent election.

But it was Gillard who reopened the centre....

If she did not reopen it, it would have been much harder for the Liberal Party to. Now they can always fall back on the line "Labour agreed this facility is needed when they reopened it".

And yes, being brown skinned Australian, I can vouch that the vast majority of people dont care about brown people.

 

[trembli0s]

I feel like parts of world have progressed to a certain point, so they can afford beeing good, because they have everything they need, but at the slightest signs of trouble depressingly large parts of society quickly show their barbaric roots. We're only acting morally when its easy.

Its a sign of moral bankruptcy that even western governments give in to the fascist, racist and xenophobic cravings of the people. Utterly disgusting, Australia.

It's a sign of human tribalism that is inherent to the species.

At least the Aussies don't have to worry as much about the Islamic context which exists in the European crisis because I imagine the results would be even worse.

I'm in Spain visiting family and the general tenor of conversation on those topics is they should stay in there own countries because they don't belong here and won't assimilate.

 

[bomma_man]

But it was Gillard who reopened the centre....

If she did not reopen it, it would have been much harder for the Liberal Party to. Now they can always fall back on the line "Labour agreed this facility is needed when they reopened it".

And yes, being brown skinned Australian, I can vouch that the vast majority of people dont care about brown people.

Not talking about Naru specifically, this stuff is rife in all of them, under both sides of politics. I had a friend that worked in an on shore centre that told me some awful things.

Also, to darkace, for a centrist small l liberal you seem awfully tolerant of ends-justifies-the-means breaches of individual rights.

 

[Last_colossi]

The country has known about this stuff for years. Don't be naive, most Australians don't care about brown people, especially if they come here on a boat.

Also, if any one didn't realise, we elected four senators from a Trump/Le Pen/Farage esque white nationalist party in the most recent election.

I fully disagree that "most" Australians are racist and I am fully aware and actually pissed off that one nation (even the name makes me feel ill) even got 4 seats but again it's only 4 seats, it may be 4 seats too many but being realistic they won't make any major change in government.

Okay. So?
I fail (again) to see a connection here or what this has to do with what I said.

Not much except a lot of those depressing comments are just people trying to defend their personal respect as a lot of those people like myself are feeling targeted for a minorities disgraceful acts.

 

[darkace]

Ignoring the fact that this behaviour would also be abhorrent in "normal prisons", you realise we're talking about men,woman and children whose only crime is trying to flee their own war torn countries. Where's your empathy?

Lying at the bottom of the ocean with the hundreds who drowned attempting the trip. I'm more than happy to massively expand our UNHCR relocation program. I'm not ok with killing people so we can feel good about ourselves.

Compassion has to be tempered with pragmatism.

And I mean yea, it is abhorrent. But these things do happen in prisons. Assaults, suicides and the like are common occurrences in any sort of detention facility. It's part and parcel of removing somebodies freedom. Should we be ok with that? No. Should we realise it will happen? Yes.

I'd like to see more oversight into these facilities, but at the end of the day the people in these facilities have massive incentives to leave for their countries of origin or resettle in other countries. There's just no reason to continue staying in Nauru unless you're trying to pull the heartstrings of Australia for resettlement in this country. Which, again, I'd be totally ok with if not for the externalities it produces.

 

[aygomyownroad]

Damn Australia, fuck if I ever look at you the same way again

Yeah... Its barbaric and backward and worst of all is that these are things happening recently not 20-30 years ago.

 

[remz]

I don't see how this stops the boats though Darkace, people are still coming, except now they go to rape island instead of Australia. Shit is backwards.

 

[Dryk]

So I guess the new cool thing is to hate on Australians for the disgusting unhuman acts that these vile pieces of shit have commited behind 99.9% of the populations backs.

Don't categorize a whole country based on a couple racist shit bags that got into a position of power, remember the 20/80 ratio.

These issues have been known for years. The two major parties shared 80% of the primary vote at the last election. Almost everyone in the country is complicit in this.

 

[bomma_man]

I fully disagree that "most" Australians are racist and I am fully aware and actually pissed off that one nation (even the name makes me feel ill) even got 4 seats but again it's only 4 seats, it may be 4 seats too many but being realistic they won't make any major change in government.



Not much except a lot of those depressing comments are just people trying to defend their personal respect as a lot of those people like myself are feeling targeted for a minorities disgraceful acts.

How is this a "minority" in any way? The greens are the only party that care about this issue and they get about 10% of the vote. The ~70% that vote for the major parties are, at the very best, fine with it. Did you miss Abbot's stop the boats campaign? Were you asleep in 2001, 2010 and 2013? I appreciate your optimism but denial doesn't help anyone.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Yeah... Its barbaric and backward and worst of all is that these are things happening recently not 20-30 years ago.

I don't see how the date has anything to do with these shitty acts.

 

[Last_colossi]

These issues have been known for years. The two major parties shared 80% of the primary vote at the last election. Almost everyone in the country is complicit in this.

Yeah and the reason why is because of the ridiculous way our voting system works as I stated in my previous post, if that wasn't in place and we had a neutral fair voting system I can assure you that percentage would be a completely different story.

 

[bomma_man]

Yeah and the reason why is because of the ridiculous way our voting system works as I stated in my previous post, if that wasn't in place and we had a neutral fair voting system I can assure you that percentage would be a completely different story.

This makes no sense though? Ordering from one to six in the house, and one to six or one to twelve in the senate is not hard!

 

[Arksy]

Don't be ridiculous, it's not our voting system that has allowed this, it's us as a whole, and it will forever be another black mark against this otherwise amazing country.

 

[NEO0MJ]

I don't see how the date has anything to do with these shitty acts.

Poster probably meant that it's bizarre how a first world western country is acting like a third world one.

 

[Last_colossi]

This makes no sense though? Ordering from one to six in the house, and one to six or one to twelve in the senate is not hard!

Maybe if you vote for the greens but if you try to vote for an independent then it quickly becomes 1 to 60 instead.

 

[chicko1983]

I fully disagree that "most" Australians are racist and I am fully aware and actually pissed off that one nation (even the name makes me feel ill) even got 4 seats but again it's only 4 seats, it may be 4 seats too many but being realistic they won't make any major change in government.

As an Australian who was adopted from Sri Lanka when I was 3 months old, I can honestly say that the majority of Australians I meet are racist. When I say majority, I reckon at least 60% of people do not like Indian ethnic people. That is what I feel, more than half.

I have been given racist remarks on the sporting field countless times, been pushed in the front of the queue at the shops by people thinking I don't exist (that one really pisses me off), service at restaurants and bars is shit (literally only last week I was at the bar with a friend and she mentioned how rude the girl behind the bar was to me after three other bar staff walked passed me, but that was normal service for me), interrogated at the airport countless times (eight times in a row, over about 18 months, I was "randomly" bomb swabbed), getting asked "where are you from?" in a tone probably once a month, I even got told by some dude that I was faking my accent and wasn't really Australian.

Yet, its still the greatest country I have ever spent time in (and Ive travelled a lot).

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Poster probably meant that it's bizarre how a first world western country is acting like a third world one.

I hate it too. It's frustrating as hell. Unfortunately the two primary parties have the policies they do, it's like if democrats and republicans were both against taking in refugees, you know? It's annoying as shit. It's gross.

As an Australian who was adopted from Sri Lanka when I was 3 months old, I can honestly say that the majority of Australians I meet are racist. When I say majority, I reckon at least 60% of people do not like Indian ethnic people. That is what I feel, more than half.

I have been given racist remarks on the sporting field countless times, been pushed in the front of the queue at the shops by people thinking I don't exist (that one really pisses me off), service at restaurants and bars is shit (literally only last week I was at the bar with a friend and she mentioned how rude the girl behind the bar was to me after three other bar staff walked passed me, but that was normal service for me), interrogated at the airport countless times (eight times in a row, over about 18 months, I was "randomly" bomb swabbed), getting asked "where are you from?" in a tone probably once a month, I even got told by some dude that I was faking my accent and wasn't really Australian.

Yet, its still the greatest country I have ever spent time in (and Ive travelled a lot).

That's fucked, far too prevalent, and as a white fellow Aussie, I'm incredibly sorry

 

[bomma_man]

Maybe if you vote for the greens but if you try to vote for an independent then it quickly becomes 1 to 60 instead.

Why? Independents 1-12 in the senate and at 1 in the house, there, done. My member is an independent!

 

[Kinyou]

This reads like something you'd expect from North Korea or something. Jesus christ

 

[Boney]

It's a fucking disgrace. That said, plenty of Australians have been trying to fix this shit for years.



Last year: https://ama.com.au/ausmed/whistleblower-doctors-face-jail-threat-today

WHAT

How can this be so blatantly abusive.

 

[cheezcake]

Lying at the bottom of the ocean with the hundreds who drowned attempting the trip. I'm more than happy to massively expand our UNHCR relocation program. I'm not ok with killing people so we can feel good about ourselves.

Compassion has to be tempered with pragmatism.

And I mean yea, it is abhorrent. But these things do happen in prisons. Assaults, suicides and the like are common occurrences in any sort of detention facility. It's part and parcel of removing somebodies freedom. Should we be ok with that? No. Should we realise it will happen? Yes.

I'd like to see more oversight into these facilities, but at the end of the day the people in these facilities have massive incentives to leave for their countries of origin or resettle in other countries. There's just no reason to continue staying in Nauru unless you're trying to pull the heartstrings of Australia for resettlement in this country. Which, again, I'd be totally ok with if not for the externalities it produces.

http://theconversation.com/operation-sovereign-borders-offshore-detention-and-the-drownings-argument-45095

The "drowning" argument is popular not because it actually saves lives, you have to be extremely naive to believe that, but because it absolves us of responsibility.

WHAT

How can this be so blatantly abusive.

A national disgrace. All of us Australians should be fucking ashamed.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'm always surprised by how racist Australia is every time I return there. I was seeing my dad last year and you can pretty openly on the street hear people discussing the fucking chinkies taking all the houses in Sydney; it's quite appalling. It was definitely worse than the UK and NZ in my experience, having lived in all three, although admittedly that's the perspective of someone white and witnessing things only secondhand.

 

[bomma_man]

I'm always surprised by how racist Australia is every time I return there. I was seeing my dad last year and you can pretty openly on the street hear people discussing the fucking chinkies taking all the houses in Sydney; it's quite appalling. It was definitely worse than the UK and NZ in my experience, having lived in all three, although admittedly that's the perspective of someone white and witnessing things only secondhand.

There's no equivelant group to Maoris or African Americans (and maybe South Asians in the UK?) that have the numbers, and by extension the political influence, to force people to confront their diet racism.

 

[Dryk]

WHAT

How can this be so blatantly abusive.

Because the public vote for the people that do it and the UN can't be bothered chasing down a country this white

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

And I mean yea, it is abhorrent. But these things do happen in prisons. Assaults, suicides and the like are common occurrences in any sort of detention facility. It's part and parcel of removing somebodies freedom. Should we be ok with that? No. Should we realise it will happen? Yes.

Don't know what you are talking about.
We heard reports about some camps in greece or other places beeing shit because they are completely overloaded and underfunded, but we haven't had reports about systemic mental and sexual abuse of refugees and even laws in place to cover it up.

The amount of downplaying going on here is really weird. This is not just "something that happens"!

It's a sign of human tribalism that is inherent to the species.

You'd think we've moved beyond our animalic roots, since we like to present ourselfs as intelligent and considerate...
Guess not.

 

[+Aliken+]

What the fuck is wrong with humans.
How can anyone take part is such inhuman acts.
It sickens me.

 

[darkace]

http://theconversation.com/operation-sovereign-borders-offshore-detention-and-the-drownings-argument-45095

The "drowning" argument is popular not because it actually saves lives, you have to be extremely naive to believe that, but because it absolves us of responsibility.

So it's our responsibility to solve everything? No drownings anywhere is the only acceptable mark of success?

Some might say that this is a test set up so that our current set-up will fail.

That whole thing offers exactly no solutions, but says our current set-up doesn't work. Based on feels.

 

[cheezcake]

So it's our responsibility to solve everything? No drownings anywhere is the only acceptable mark of success?

Some might say that this is a test set up so that our current set-up will fail.

That whole thing offers exactly no solutions, but says our current set-up doesn't work. Based on feels.

Yes I think it's our moral responsibility to be part of the solution and not the problem.

 

[bomma_man]

So it's our responsibility to solve everything? No drownings anywhere is the only acceptable mark of success?

Some might say that this is a test set up so that our current set-up will fail.

That whole thing offers exactly no solutions, but says our current set-up doesn't work. Based on feels.

Should torture be a policy tool, even if it does work?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Why do do immigrants always get treated like shit? Always people of color.

 

[Siegcram]

So it's our responsibility to solve everything? No drownings anywhere is the only acceptable mark of success?

Some might say that this is a test set up so that our current set-up will fail.

That whole thing offers exactly no solutions, but says our current set-up doesn't work. Based on feels.

First step to solving a problem is acknowledging its existence. Seems that hasn't happened yet in Australia. So a emotional appeal seems apt.

 

[Henkka]

http://theconversation.com/operation-sovereign-borders-offshore-detention-and-the-drownings-argument-45095

The "drowning" argument is popular not because it actually saves lives, you have to be extremely naive to believe that, but because it absolves us of responsibility.

I don't think this article did a good job of debunking the "drowning" argument or proposing an alternative to stopping the boats. The author suggests Australia could increase it's humanitarian intake, but that's not really at odds with stopping incoming boats. They even acknowledge they don't have a ready-made alternative at the end. Also, there's this part:

Under the period of the Rudd/Gillard government, it is widely accepted that around 1200 asylum seekers drowned on their way to Australia. That figure is backed up by Monash’s Border Observatory website, Marg Hutton’s sievx.com website and ABC Fact Check. It seems around 2-4% of those who attempted the journey died doing it.

Under the Abbott government, Hutton and the Border Observatory record about 40 likely deaths by drowning of people trying to make their way to Australia by boat, most in a single incident in the government’s first month.

So that's a massive drop in drownings. Yet at the end, the author concludes the policy likely isn't saving lives, which seems like a complete non-sequitur to me. I suppose the argument is that those people are still in terrible, life-threatening conditions elsewhere... But they're not at the bottom of the sea.

 

[darkace]

Yes I think it's our moral responsibility to be part of the solution and not the problem.

That's the idea behind our current set-up. We need a better global resettlement scheme, but that will never happen with so many nations having no incentive to do so. There's only so much we can do.

Should torture be a policy tool, even if it does work?

Is it morally ok to commit an act of lesser evil in order to prevent a great evil through inaction? I'd say yes, but I'm a filthy utility monster.

First step to solving a problem is acknowledging its existence. Seems that hasn't happened yet in Australia. So a emotional appeal seems apt.

We do acknowledge a problem. The previous intake regime failed. There aren't easy answers here.

I think what the article above also fails to address is that the problem wasn't the drownings per se, it was that the drownings were increasing rapidly. Even the ALP left realised their set-up failed.

 

[Last_colossi]

As an Australian who was adopted from Sri Lanka when I was 3 months old, I can honestly say that the majority of Australians I meet are racist. When I say majority, I reckon at least 60% of people do not like Indian ethnic people. That is what I feel, more than half.

I have been given racist remarks on the sporting field countless times, been pushed in the front of the queue at the shops by people thinking I don't exist (that one really pisses me off), service at restaurants and bars is shit (literally only last week I was at the bar with a friend and she mentioned how rude the girl behind the bar was to me after three other bar staff walked passed me, but that was normal service for me), interrogated at the airport countless times (eight times in a row, over about 18 months, I was "randomly" bomb swabbed), getting asked "where are you from?" in a tone probably once a month, I even got told by some dude that I was faking my accent and wasn't really Australian.

Yet, its still the greatest country I have ever spent time in (and Ive travelled a lot).

I'm really sorry to hear that, I have run into people like that before and they make my skin crawl, I really hope that one day we can get to a point where jackasses like that become extinct.

 

[cheezcake]

I don't think this article did a good job of debunking the "drowning" argument or proposing an alternative to stopping the boats. The author suggests Australia could increase it's humanitarian intake, but that's not really at odds with stopping incoming boats. They even acknowledge they don't have a ready-made alternative at the end. Also, there's this part:



So that's a massive drop in drownings. Yet at the end, the author concludes the policy likely isn't saving lives, which seems like a complete non-sequitur to me. I suppose the argument is that those people are still in terrible, life-threatening conditions elsewhere... But they're not at the bottom of the sea.

Drownings to Australia are lessened, there are still people drowning on their way to other countries

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Wow that's evil

 

[Helensmith]

I'm always surprised by how racist Australia is every time I return there. I was seeing my dad last year and you can pretty openly on the street hear people discussing the fucking chinkies taking all the houses in Sydney; it's quite appalling. It was definitely worse than the UK and NZ in my experience, having lived in all three, although admittedly that's the perspective of someone white and witnessing things only secondhand.

Jesus Christ, is that true? I'm British Chinese and weighing up emmigrating to Syndey. I heard Australia is racist but assumed Sydney would be fine because it's highly multicultural. My Australian friends in London were complaining bitterly about Brexit xenophobia but haven't said a peep about this Nauru news...

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Jesus Christ, is that true? I'm British Chinese and weighing up emmigrating to Syndey. I heard Australia is racist but assumed Sydney would be fine because it's highly multicultural. My Australian friends in London were complaining bitterly about Brexit xenophobia but haven't said a peep about this Nauru news...

I'm Australian/British dual nationality and love both countries, so I'd like to think I'm pretty neutral between them, and yeah, it's pretty true from my experiences. I've seen second-hand racism maybe once in London in years' experience, and 2 months back in Sydney after not being in Australia for a few years was enough to absolutely blow that out of the water, often coming from the mouths of the "respectable middle-classes" who in the UK would at least have the decency to keep that in private. Both obviously have problems with racism, but from my experience (again, a white perspective, so not at all complete) Australia much more so. It's especially worse for Chinese-descent people (or just East Asians in general given most don't bother distinguishing), because in the UK the boogeyman is Poles and South Asians whereas the Chinese diaspora is too small to attract much negative attention. In Australia it is large enough that the Chinese get a huge amount of vilification.

 

[Nikodemos]

The open dark secret of Australia is that a painfully large number of its citizens have always been turbo-racist. Older Australians don't talk about it (mainly because it is quite nekulturnyi nowadays) but Australia was one of the last countries to completely expunge the last vestiges of antisemitic legislation from its immigration code (somewhere in the late-60s to early-70s IIRC; way, way later than it should have been).

 

[TheSecondSpitter]

I got the fuck out of that horrible country because of racist attitudes and I was born there.

I have been given racist remarks on the sporting field countless times, been pushed in the front of the queue at the shops by people thinking I don't exist (that one really pisses me off), service at restaurants and bars is shit (literally only last week I was at the bar with a friend and she mentioned how rude the girl behind the bar was to me after three other bar staff walked passed me, but that was normal service for me), interrogated at the airport countless times (eight times in a row, over about 18 months, I was "randomly" bomb swabbed), getting asked "where are you from?" in a tone probably once a month, I even got told by some dude that I was faking my accent and wasn't really Australian. .

That's funny because I distinctly remember you previously stating that you never encountered racism in Australia. Not that I believed you for a second.

 

[Khoryos]

The open dark secret of Australia is that a painfully large number of its citizens have always been turbo-racist. Older Australians don't talk about it (mainly because it is quite nekulturnyi nowadays) but Australia was one of the last countries to completely expunge the last vestiges of antisemitic legislation from its immigration code (somewhere in the late-60s to early-70s IIRC; way, way later than it should have been).

The last of the seriously dodgy stuff was removed in 73, but anecdotally "Keep Australia White" was still the unofficial policy up until the 90's.

 

[Llyranor]

Didn't Australia recently ish make a law making it illegal to report on what happens in these centers?

Last year: https://ama.com.au/ausmed/whistleblower-doctors-face-jail-threat-today

This is the worst part of this awful story. This cover-up policy is absolutely shameful and makes all the abuse seem intentional.

My wifes best friend is cambodian and she and her family fled to America in the 60s after Vietnam. Her dad and some brothers died in the war, killed by the regime for being intellectuals. Still, her mom took her and her siblings eventually to America over a difficult path, where they were welcomed, and they settled in and are all now quite successful and doing well. Ironically most of her family is completely against allowing Syrian refugees in, for various reasons.

This sounds like a 'F you, i got mine' if I ever heard any. They of all people should know what it is to flee a war-torn country.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Good god, these things are horrid. But why would you willingly sew your lips together? Is that some sort of cultural thing the refugees do?

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Tony Abbott essentially said 'shit happens' in response to this. This is the same guy who went to Europe demanding they follow his policies. And many Europeans support an 'Australian model' asylum system. There were protests in Austria with people using Australian immigration slogans. Fucking animals.

 

[plagiarize]

Don't know what you are talking about.
We heard reports about some camps in greece or other places beeing shit because they are completely overloaded and underfunded, but we haven't had reports about systemic mental and sexual abuse of refugees and even laws in place to cover it up.

The amount of downplaying going on here is really weird. This is not just "something that happens"!

Completely agreed. I work in a prison where shit like this *doesn't* happen, where people are fired or disciplined for much much less. It's attitudes like "Shit like this is what happens" in prisons, is what *allows* shit like that to happen.

 

[witchedwiz]

granted this is absolutely terrible and i'm NOT justifying this shit..
paint me curious: is there actually no other country nearby, that these guys have to go to australia? because australia it's pretty much in the middle of nothing, so i cannot understand where these migrants without any sustainance means are coming from...

 

[BigDes]

Good god, these things are horrid. But why would you willingly sew your lips together? Is that some sort of cultural thing the refugees do?

The person that sewed their lips together was a traumatized child, there are possibly hundreds of reasons that she thought she had to. I doubt it is a cultural thing, just the act of an extremely scared, confused, child likely driven to mental instability by her callous and abusive treatment.

 

[Window]

Lying at the bottom of the ocean with the hundreds who drowned attempting the trip. I'm more than happy to massively expand our UNHCR relocation program. I'm not ok with killing people so we can feel good about ourselves.

Compassion has to be tempered with pragmatism.

And I mean yea, it is abhorrent. But these things do happen in prisons. Assaults, suicides and the like are common occurrences in any sort of detention facility. It's part and parcel of removing somebodies freedom. Should we be ok with that? No. Should we realise it will happen? Yes.

I'd like to see more oversight into these facilities, but at the end of the day the people in these facilities have massive incentives to leave for their countries of origin or resettle in other countries. There's just no reason to continue staying in Nauru unless you're trying to pull the heartstrings of Australia for resettlement in this country. Which, again, I'd be totally ok with if not for the externalities it produces.

I don't think this article did a good job of debunking the "drowning" argument or proposing an alternative to stopping the boats. The author suggests Australia could increase it's humanitarian intake, but that's not really at odds with stopping incoming boats. They even acknowledge they don't have a ready-made alternative at the end. Also, there's this part:



So that's a massive drop in drownings. Yet at the end, the author concludes the policy likely isn't saving lives, which seems like a complete non-sequitur to me. I suppose the argument is that those people are still in terrible, life-threatening conditions elsewhere... But they're not at the bottom of the sea.

I'm not sure I want to believe what's being presented here. That a policy of systematic abuse and mistreatment of refugees is an effective deterrent and corrects incentives, halting the influx of refugees who would have otherwise died en mass on their journey? To believe that this is the best solution even under the guise of pragmatism and a single minded blind belief of utilitarianism is difficult for me to digest.

 

[BigDes]

I'm not sure I want to believe what's being presented here. That a policy of systematic abuse and mistreatment of refugees is an effective deterrent and corrects incentives, halting the influx of refugees who would have otherwise died en mass on their journey? To believe that this is the best solution even under the guise of pragmatism and a single minded blind belief of utilitarianism is difficult to digest for me.

I am willing to be generous here and say that they are defending the internment policy on its own and not the rampant cases of abuse it has engendered.

I am being generous here because like you I find it extremely hard to believe that someone would justify child rape for any reason.

 

[NEO0MJ]

I got the fuck out of that horrible country because of racist attitudes and I was born there.

Still a better place to live in than 90% of the world, and it's not like racism doesn't exist elsewhere.
I wish I could live there personally.