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[HappyBivouac]

Animals are not rational beings

There's no concrete scientific definition of "rationality" but just google search animal rationality and you'll find plenty of research that suggests more a spectrum of rationality than the black and white you're suggesting. The lines are quite blurred.

 

[Lautaro]

That's sounds like a horrible way to live lol... I mean I enjoyed the singing (and most singing in general) in the occasional mass O had in my catholic secondary school but an eternal of me sitting there singing "praise be to god" in as many different songs as possible sounds like great material for a list of "Top 10 worst possible scenarios of what afterlife is".

Pff at least you would be sitting, I remember having to be on my knees during the mass in my catholic school.

What a loving god that demands you to kneel and worship him, reminds me of this other "god":

 

[riskVSreward]

I can confirm the bible is an ancient religious text that explains all of these things brought up by fry's arguments. Have you read the bible?

I was almost ready to let the two separate genesis account get a pass but then I hit that boring geneology chapter and never looked back.

 

[PhantomHound]

Yes they are. That's why they do things like run away from natural disasters. They know what is coming and are rational enough to move away from it.

I believe that falls under instinct.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Dogs are only conditioned to sit because of instinct for food. I didn't say dogs were incapable of learning.

And you were conditioned to believe in God so you can get a treat at the end. Who's a good boy? Phantomhound is.

And I just said it disobeyed the order to sit. Doesn't that mean you don't have dominion over it and that it can do as it pleases? While it may listen most of the time to your commands, it still has a will of its own that lets it make decisions by itself (what do you know, that's usually the definition of free will).

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

I can confirm the bible is an ancient religious text that explains all of these things brought up by fry's arguments. Have you read the bible?

That doesn't validate...

This shit gets so frustrating. What is even more frustrating is that you do not engage actual discussion. All you do is parrot out some passage from a text that you believe in.

 

[ibyea]

I believe that falls under instinct.

Same one of self preservation humans have, so?

 

[riskVSreward]

I believe that falls under instinct.

I find it remarkable that your rabid defense of the bible also makes you an expert on animal psychology.

 

[Buddha Beam]

Atheists aren't mad at God. Atheists are mad at the people who commit atrocities in God's name, and hinder the progress of humanity.

What atheists constantly fail to recognize is that people would find all sorts of reasons to "hinder the progress of humanity" even if you took religion away. Religion is the original politics, after all. America didn't need any religious justification for bombing the shit out of however many countries it's been since World War II, for example. Countless millions died senselessly in Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan... and let's not forget all the meddling we've done in South America back in the 80's.

I just don't know if atheists tend to be naive in thinking that no religion would allow these atrocities to no longer occur or if it's just willful ignorance. It doesn't take much to get humans to do terrible shit to each other, God or no god.

 

[Mecha]

Yeah, animals aren't governed by emotions and instinct. They're logical beings.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying animals have no emotions?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I can confirm the bible is an ancient religious text that explains all of these things brought up by fry's arguments. Have you read the bible?

It doesn't explain anything because there is no proof saying what's in the Bible is factually correct. In some ways, it's even been proven to be incorrect. What you mean to say is that it addresses those arguments in some fashion.

 

[Oppo]

If everything was a perfect happy paradise, then what would be the point of life? There would be nothing to strive for. Nothing to make us want to better ourselves. Nothing that would make each joyful moment that much more meaningful.

Through suffering, and through loss we learn to appreciate the good things in life that much more. If the world was just a hippys dream come true, why would we even need to exist in the first place? How would we learn to thank God for the things in life that do make us happy amidst all the shit? All we would know is everything is perfect. In fact there would probably be no death because 'oh a loving God would never make us die'. So now we are all just perfect immortal beings living in paradise without any real purpose to our existence other than just being there to pleasure ourselves and somehow never getting bored of not having obstacles to overcome.

you just described the Garden of Eden. which supposedly God kicked us out of, and damned us forever, for doing exactly what you described – overcoming the one obstacle that was there.

 

[FloatOn]

When I say "the subset of atheist you see on r/atheism" (which is a subreddit, not a 4chan board), I'm referring to the archetype. The "angry atheist" who is rude and mocking about religion at every opportunity.

so - it's gone from "no one thinks this way" to there being enough atheists to have an angry archetype? interesting.

I kind of thought that I didn't imagine a bunch of pissed off atheists blaming god for shit.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying animals have no emotions?

That was sarcasm. PhantomHound was saying humans don't have emotions.

 

[Maninthemirror]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus

etc, etc

fedora

m'lady

jenga

If God can prevent evil. he could and does but when there are hungry people dying and God intervenes directly with sudden removal of all hunger for the hungry then the next time it happens, people wont fight for the rights of others, they will wait for God. then if disease strikes, no one will want to study medicine and cure diseases, they will wait for God to do it. evolution of man's ideas and knowledge will come to a standstill. Who caused the Holocaust? and who ultimately prevented it. How did smallpox spread? and who invented a vaccine for it? It is the free will of man who is moving in life between life and death and finds ways to help other through FREE WILL that Evil can occur due to free will and hunger can be removed with free will, be it evil in the form of disease or evil in the form of human inaction/action

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

so - it's gone from "no one thinks this way" to there being enough atheists to have an angry archetype? interesting.

I kind of thought that I didn't imagine a bunch of pissed off atheists blaming god for shit.

Do you understand what a stereotype is? So you weren't actually looking to engage in a discussion when you made this thread, you were merely trying to validate your ill-conceived notion.

 

[PhantomHound]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying animals have no emotions?

That quote was in sarcasm.

 

[Mecha]

That was sarcasm. PhantomHound was saying humans don't have emotions.

OK, I was wondering because I have seen people say animals have no emotions before.

 

[riskVSreward]

so - it's gone from "no one thinks this way" to there being enough atheists to have an angry archetype? interesting.

I kind of thought that I didn't imagine a bunch of pissed off atheists blaming god for shit.

There's only one defining characteristic of an atheist, they lack a belief in gods.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

If God can prevent evil. he could and does but when there are hungry people dying and God intervenes directly with sudden removal of all hunger for the hungry then the next time it happens, people wont fight for the rights of others, they will wait for God.

Which is a problem because...?

 

[FartOfWar]

from an islamic perspective



Read more for full chapter here: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_6.html



this is the answer which I subscribe to in relation to God and suffering.

This is elliptical claptrap that wears a wizard's robe while trotting out the old notion that god created parasites in order to promote cleanliness. It invents its own vocabulary for an "evolution" that's far removed from actual evolutionary science and assumes its audience isn't sufficiently familiar with biology to see the sophistry.

And it's as odious as it is ignorant.
"Remove the pain as an instrument in the making of this masterpiece of creative wonder and life will be rendered into a senseless mass of vegetation, not even aware of itself. Are a few odd cases of misery and deprivation too big a price to pay for the prodigious marvel of consciousness?"

You see, had the Spanish flu not killed 50-100 million people in less than two years, had small pox not wiped out 90 percent of the population of the Americas, and so on and so forth throughout the entirety of human history, we'd be vegetables. When a tsunami snuffs out a few hundred thousand lives, thank God for the prodigious marvel of consciousness it affords us. Because we need to see others suffer in order to know we exist.

 

[Lautaro]

That doesn't validate...

This shit gets so frustrating. What is even more frustrating is that you do not engage actual discussion. All you do is parrot out some passage from a text that you believe in.

We should start parroting back then:

"Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" Psalm 137

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent." Timothy 2:12


Clearly a divine inspired text.

 

[PhantomHound]

I find it remarkable that your rabid defense of the bible also makes you an expert on animal psychology.

I'm not defending the bible. I'm just saying it has the topics covered if you believe that sort of thing.

 

[PhantomHound]

And you were conditioned to believe in God so you can get a treat at the end. Who's a good boy? Phantomhound is.

And I just said it disobeyed the order to sit. Doesn't that mean you don't have dominion over it and that it can do as it pleases? While it may listen most of the time to your commands, it still has a will of its own that lets it make decisions by itself (what do you know, that's usually the definition of free will).

Why must you insult me? Please, this is a sensitive subject, some people may get offended.

 

[riskVSreward]

I'm not defending the bible. I'm just saying it has the topics covered if you believe that sort of thing.

So... circular reasoning?

 

[reckless]

If God can prevent evil. he could and does but when there are hungry people dying and God intervenes directly with sudden removal of all hunger for the hungry then the next time it happens, people wont fight for the rights of others, they will wait for God. then if disease strikes, no one will want to study medicine and cure diseases, they will wait for God to do it. evolution of man's ideas and knowledge will come to a standstill. Who caused the Holocaust? and who ultimately prevented it. How did smallpox spread? and who invented a vaccine for it? It is the free will of man who is moving in life between life and death and finds ways to help other through FREE WILL that Evil can occur due to free will and hunger can be removed with free will, be it evil in the form of disease or evil in the form of human inaction/action

You could still have people inventing new things without all of the bad stuff. If god didnt create hunger or disease in the first place we wouldn't have to waste time trying to fix those problems, instead we could be focused on inventing other things that bring happiness.

 

[FloatOn]

Do you understand what a stereotype is? So you weren't actually looking to engage in a discussion when you made this thread, you were merely trying to validate your ill-conceived notion.

I've been speaking from my own perspective and I think I've been generous to the views of others as well.

 

[King_Moc]

God created man as a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions

Animals are not rational beings

Humans aren't necessarily rational.

Given that i suspect you won't believe something is capable of rational thought, unless it can communicate directly to you (unlike god), how would you explain Koko the Gorilla? It can use sign language. It asks questions, makes friends, expresses emotions. It even attempts jokes occasionally.

I hate this type of thinking. Why do we need a god for our lives to have meaning?

I did say ultimately. In the short term, it can have meaning to other humans. But ultimately, it's all just gonna be dust.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

I've been speaking from my own perspective and I think I've been generous to the views of others as well.

Do you know what a stereotype is? Cause that is what Cyan was trying to explain and it seems you aren't getting it.

 

[riskVSreward]

Humans aren't necessarily rational.

Given that i suspect you won't believe something is capable of rational thought, unless it can communicate directly to you (unlike god), how would you explain Koko the Gorilla? It can use sign language. It asks questions, makes friends, expresses emotions. It even attempts jokes occasionally.

Sounds like Satan is up to no good again!

 

[Bizazedo]

I've been speaking from my own perspective and I think I've been generous to the views of others as well.

But you don't want a discussion. He's right, you're projecting and want validated. There have been over a dozen posts which answered your question in painful exactness.

 

[squarerootofpie]

So in this scenario, God loses his traditional attributes, right?

God gave people free will to do what they want but just not ear shellfish or wear cotton and denim.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

If God can prevent evil. he could and does but when there are hungry people dying and God intervenes directly with sudden removal of all hunger for the hungry then the next time it happens, people wont fight for the rights of others, they will wait for God. then if disease strikes, no one will want to study medicine and cure diseases, they will wait for God to do it.

If this God is truly all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent, then why wouldn't it see to everyone's troubles and create a paradise for all? What is the point of having suffering? If it takes no effort on this God's behalf to make everyone happy, then to not do so is just plain cruelty.

 

[AbsolutBro]

I hate this type of thinking. Why do we need a god for our lives to have meaning?

I don't think that's what he was saying. I think we just have a situation of a word crossing two meanings.

For a specific individual, their life can having meaning, a purpose. That meaning or purpose can give their life a direction, a motivation.

Cosmically, each and every human life is meaningless. In the grandness of space and time, we are a blip. Completely incapable of changing a modicum of the direction of the Universe at large. Eventually, every thing that has ever lived will grow old, die, and be forgotten. It is meaningless.

Or as my favorite version puts it:

Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's going to die.

 

[riskVSreward]

If this God is truly all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent, then why wouldn't it see to everyone's troubles and create a paradise for all? What is the point of having suffering? If it takes no effort on this God's behalf to make everyone happy, then to not do so is just plain cruelty.

Well we found out earlier in the thread that god is challenging himself by playing Resident Evil with only the knife.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

God gave people free will to do what they want but just not ear shellfish or wear cotton and denim.

You can wear cotton and denim, you just cannot mix the two. Get it right.

 

[HappyBivouac]

so - it's gone from "no one thinks this way" to there being enough atheists to have an angry archetype? interesting.

I kind of thought that I didn't imagine a bunch of pissed off atheists blaming god for shit.

I don't see where cyan ever said "no one thinks that way." You're quite good at putting words in others' mouths and assuming they're saying something they never actually said; I'll give you that.

I've been speaking from my own perspective and I think I've been generous to the views of others as well.

You're "generous" but you lack basic reading comprehension. Got it.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Why must you insult me? Please, this is a sensitive subject, some people may get offended.

I didn't insult you. I said you're a good boy.

You have the free will to choose not to be insulted.

 

[FloatOn]

Do you know what a stereotype is? Cause that is what Cyan was trying to explain and it seems you aren't getting it.

"a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."

Cyan also said that these people actually exist (to whatever degree) and post on message boards.

I don't see where cyan ever said "no one thinks that way." You're quite good at putting words in others' mouths and assuming they're saying something they never actually said; I'll give you that.



You're "generous" but you lack basic reading comprehension. Got it.

Cyan didn't say "no one thinks this way" but several others did with regards to those atheists that get angry at god for certain bad things that exist. You're attempt at an insult is noted and kind of sad tbh... kind of lame that most conversations with atheists have tended to go this way.

 

[collige]

I believe that falls under instinct.

Please explain why elephants conduct funerals and wakes for their dead.

 

[PhantomHound]

So... circular reasoning?

Fry asks why bad thing happen to good people and why a god would do that? When in the Bible it explains why bad things happen to good people. To which people in this thread are saying, no god exists because he would never allow the world to have such evil, but religious people would just point to the bible... because it explains that God is aware of suffering and continues to let it happen.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm not defending the bible. I'm just saying it has the topics covered if you believe that sort of thing.

No, it really doesn't.

It's a product of its time. A book of guiding principles meant to control the unruly hordes with the threat of eternal damnation.

 

[Bizazedo]

Fry asks why bad thing happen to good people and why a god would do that? When in the Bible it explains why bad things happen to good people. To which people in this thread are saying, no god exists because he would never allow the world to have such evil, but religious people would just point to the bible... because it explains that God is aware of suffering and continues to let it happen.

Hah. Well played, I'll give you that.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

"a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."

Cyan also said that these people actually exist (to whatever degree) and post on message boards.

Ok I want you to read this again and read it slow.

the stereotypical angry atheist who yells at religious people and talks about magical sky fairies and whatnot, that these are the people who grew up in strongly religious families, who were indoctrinated into some religion or another, and thus when they finally came to the conclusion that their religion wasn't true, they got angry. Not angry at God, but angry at their family, their friends, their church.

So yes, of course there are emotional atheists. But I think you're incorrect about where their emotion is directed.

 

[riskVSreward]

"a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."

Cyan also said that these people actually exist (to whatever degree) and post on message boards.

All sorts of people exist, but there are actually educated atheists who base their beliefs on evidence and therefore lack a belief in gods.

 

[super-heated plasma]

you just described the Garden of Eden. which supposedly God kicked us out of, and damned us forever, for doing exactly what you described – overcoming the one obstacle that was there.

Because we have free will, And with free will comes consequences of our actions. To live a perfect happy paradise forever like others claim we should live in if there was really a God, would mean mankind would have had to have no free will given to us. Which basically makes us mindless, obedient, but super happy slaves with absolutely no reason for existing other than just to be there. Plants would serve a more useful purpose than we would, so why bother?

 

[RM8]

All sorts of people exist, but there are actually educated atheists who base their beliefs on evidence and therefore lack a belief in gods.

Or people that simply were born into a non-theistic culture.

And now they're screwed for eternity :x

 

[reckless]

Because we have free will, And with free will comes consequences of our actions. To live a perfect happy paradise forever like others claim we should live in if there was really a God, would mean mankind would have had to have no free will given to us. Which basically makes us mindless, obedient, but super happy slaves with absolutely no reason for existing other than just to be there. Plants would serve a more useful purpose than we would, so why bother?

So why does god bother with heaven and why do so many people want to get there if paradise is such a bad thing?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Fry asks why bad thing happen to good people and why a god would do that? When in the Bible it explains why bad things happen to good people. To which people in this thread are saying, no god exists because he would never allow the world to have such evil, but religious people would just point to the bible... because it explains that God is aware of suffering and continues to let it happen.

Did you listen to what Fry said? He wasn't really asking "why?" He was saying that he would berate this supposedly all powerful, all knowing, and so-called benevolent God for being such a terribly fiend and tyrant who supposedly takes a great deal of glee in the suffering of his subjects.

 

[PhantomHound]

No, it really doesn't.

It's a product of its time. A book of guiding principles meant to control the unruly hordes with the threat of eternal damnation.

But it does. You can choose not to believe in it, but don't say things aren't in there when they clearly are.