Support NeoGAF

[Phreaker]

Probably work as well as SimCity did not connected to the "cloud", i.e. they will be just fine.

 

[StudioTan]

are you under the impression that titles using the cloud, will look different/perform differently than their offline counterparts? better destruction, better grass, and lighting? the only information from Microsoft you have.

or would offline tower destruction be different?

I said it's possible and we see it all the time on PC where graphical features can be disabled if your computer can't handle it. Some games used PhysX but what happens when that isn't supported by your video card or you turn it off? Does the game stop functioning? We also saw this recently with Tomb Raider where the hair is different depending on if you can use TressFX or not. So far all we know is that Titanfall is using the cloud to calculate AI in real time and Forza is using it to create driveatars that don't need to be streamed in real time and can downloaded and stored when available and if not available will use premade AIs that ship with the game. As for what else will be done we don't know yet but to say it's not possible at all is ignorant.

The vast majority of computations done for games are latency-sensitive. And by vast majority, I mean pretty much all of them.

Let's say you wanted to play Civilization V in the cloud. Which you could. But outside of games which are turn-based, the cloud can do fuck-all for the important stuff that game consoles would like to see offloaded from the local CPU.

The other problem is if you do manage do something completely game-essential out in the cloud, if your Internet experiences even a momentary loss of connection, your game goes kaboom. This is completely unacceptable for any single player games, and it would be quite disruptive for conventional multiplayer games. When the MMO's server dies a melt-and-die, no one can log on and play until the server comes back up. Now let's apply that to all games, single or multiplayer. I can't think of a better recipe for the end of the world for gaming than that.

Tell that to Respawn.

 

[Darknight]

If the game requires an online connection the game will require an online connection. Nothing's changed.

Everything's changed....atleast the message (of this BS).

Like before the 180, XB1 had DRM so always "connected". Always connected = able to use DA CLOUD for extra performance. Always available means devs can say something impressive is being done thanx to the CLOUD behind the scenes when in reality its just BS to get people excited.

It was to get players to accept an always online system and to buy them into it. "Ha! PS4 users wish they had the power of the CLOUD! Dead Rising 3 is only on XB1 cuz with CLOUD it can process 1000 zombies! Something not capable on PS4!"

I feel that MS could use this CLOUD thing as a PR speak. Kinda like Sony back in 2006 or so saying rumble wasnt needed because they have "SIXASIX"! Its just to buy those into whatever crap they want to cram forcefully onto people. Anyways, I think some devs cant easily say now "With the power of the CLOUD" any more unless their game requires an on going internet connection, even for SP games.

 

[flyingmonkeywhoa]

Well, Sony is saying "we can do it to if we need to!" which of course means that they are dirty liars since cloud processing is apparently a myth according to many posters here.

I don't think people think its a myth, moreso they're not really using it to the extent that they claimed. I mean the whole justification for the 24 hour DRM was cloud computing and making sure your game was bought legitimately.

Even if Sony did say "me too" they still aren't pushing it as aggressively as Microsoft was.

 

[StudioTan]

Everything's changed....atleast the message (of this BS).

Like before the 180, XB1 had DRM so always "connected". Always connected = able to use DA CLOUD for extra performance. Always available means devs can say something impressive is being done thanx to the CLOUD behind the scenes when in reality its just BS to get people excited.

It was to get players to accept an always online system and to buy them into it. "Ha! PS4 users wish they had the power of the CLOUD! Dead Rising 3 is only on XB1 cuz with CLOUD it can process 1000 zombies! Something not capable on PS4!"

I feel that MS could use this CLOUD thing as a PR speak. Kinda like Sony back in 2006 or so saying rumble wasnt needed because they have "SIXASIX"! Its just to buy those into whatever crap they want to cram forcefully onto people. Anyways, I think some devs cant easily say now "With the power of the CLOUD" any more unless their game requires an on going internet connection, even for SP games.

Always connected as in once every 24 hours? You might want to look up the definition of "always".

 

[Bornstellar]

Which publisher's can provide on other platforms (PC), also it's certainly not inconceivable Sony can do the same with the infrastructure they are doing with Gaikai.

1. What's more likely - games will use a free resource, or publishers will pay for that same resource?
2. It is absolutely inconceivable - Sony and Gaikai simply don't have the same sheer volume of datacenters and servers that MS has across the globe.

 

[Klocker]

Power of the Cloud was always just a load of nonsense to cover up the fact they'd gone cheap(er?) on the hardware to compensate for Kinect.

yes they spent millions to build extra Live servers onto Azure for all Xbox devs to use for free all so they can say "Powa of clowd", instead of getting a slightly more powerful GPU

 

[USC-fan]

yes they spent millions to build extra Live servers onto Azure for all devs to use for free all so they can say "Powa of clowd", instead of getting a slightly more powerful GPU

You clearly do not understand what that service is...

 

[sangreal]

I don't think people think its a myth, moreso they're not really using it to the extent that they claimed. I mean the whole justification for the 24 hour DRM was cloud computing and making sure your game was bought legitimately.

Even if Sony did say "me too" they still aren't pushing it as aggressively as Microsoft was.

The 24 hour checkin had nothing to do with cloud computing

 

[Klocker]

You clearly do not understand what that service is...

of course I do.... but you love arguing about it with me nonetheless

 

[iLLmaticV3]

It was quite obvious from the get-go that all that Cloud talk was bullshit PR talk to help Microsoft get away with always-online. I was a little shocked that so many people believed all of Microsofts hype.

 

[plagiarize]

I said it's possible and we see it all the time on PC where graphical features can be disabled if your computer can't handle it. Some games used PhysX but what happens when that isn't supported by your video card or you turn it off? Does the game stop functioning? We also saw this recently with Tomb Raider where the hair is different depending on if you can use TressFX or not. So far all we know is that Titanfall is using the cloud to calculate AI in real time and Forza is using it to create driveatars that don't need to be streamed in real time and can downloaded and stored when available and if not available will use premade AIs that ship with the game. As for what else will be done we don't know yet but to say it's not possible at all is ignorant.



Tell that to Respawn.

UT3 used 'the cloud' on PS3 to calculate AI of multiplayer bots on the dedicated servers.

so fucking what?

the NPCs aren't something that couldn't be done locally, they're just something Respawn offload so they don't have to worry about performance going down as the number of NPCs goes up. nothing specific about Azure makes this possible. any dedicated server can do this on any platform.

 

[fallagin]

There is value in the cloud for certain things, like backing things up and for persistent mmo worlds, but if your game just has standard 16-64 player multiplayer then there is not that much the cloud can do for a game aside from dedicated servers.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Turn 10 said Forza will use your friends to replace regular AI drivers. Was that merely an optional feature you could switch off or was that default? If it was default, then I guess Turn 10 need to work on some AI drivers before launch.

Generally speaking, however, we will see titles that require an always-online connection on both platforms.

 

[Phreaker]

It feels like "the cloud" is becoming synonymous with bullshit. Went from industry buzzzword to skeptical consumer in no time.

 

[sangreal]

Turn 10 said Forza will use your friends to replace regular AI drivers. Was that merely an optional feature you could switch off or was that default? If it was default, then I guess Turn 10 need to work on some AI drivers before launch.

Generally speaking, however, we will see titles that require an always-online connection on both platforms.

Go play Forza 1 and you will have your answer

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Tell that to Respawn.

Tell what to Respawn? Do you realize that all MMOs today have the mob AI calculated by the server right now? THE POWER OF THE CLOUD, HERE TODAY?! MIND BLOWN!

 

[TheGravemind]

The opponents in forza motorsport will change in order to reduce the computational cost in the crash team racing enemies

 

[Bornstellar]

Tell what to Respawn? Do you realize that all MMOs today have the mob AI calculated by the server right now? THE POWER OF THE CLOUD, HERE TODAY?! MIND BLOWN!

You people really don't get it do you. It's not the bloody technology, it's the cost free access to it.

 

[BruiserBear]

here is a real example of something you COULD do with cloud processing that you couldn't do locally on the box. in a driving game, it is very easy to predict when your car is going to crash ahead of time. so you upload the data of the crash that's about to occur to a big number crunching farm, that is dedicated to calculating crash physics on a much higher level than the local cpu can. then, that data gets sent back to the system. if it arrives in time for the actual crash, it then plays back that simulation. if not, it uses a simpler crash model.

there are items you could account for latency with, like car crashes. we weren't likely to see such things though, not on a system that allowed for the console to be offline for up to 24 hours at a time.

No, that's really not possible. At least not in a way any developer would ever bother jumping thought the hoops necessary to make it work. You sound like you drank some of that cloud kool-aid.

 

[plagiarize]

Turn 10 said Forza will use your friends to replace regular AI drivers. Was that merely an optional feature you could switch off or was that default? If it was default, then I guess Turn 10 need to work on some AI drivers before launch.

Generally speaking, however, we will see titles that require an always-online connection on both platforms.

i'm not sure why people still struggle with this. the AI in Forza all runs locally on your Xbone. what happens is that if you are connected to the internet it will uploaded a bunch of data from your game to the cloud. the cloud then produces an AI profile based on all that data. this profile will then get downloaded to your friends consoles when they are online. the profiles you have downloaded will work even after you lose internet connection. naturally the game will have driver profiles built into it even if you never let it see an internet connection.

 

[Windu]

Xbox one never required a persistent connection, just a ping every 24 hrs. So nothing changes.

 

[plagiarize]

No, that's really not possible. At least not in a way any developer would ever bother jumping thought the hoops necessary to make it work. You sound like you drank some of that cloud kool-aid.

honestly, it is possible. I doubt it'll be worth doing though. Branch prediction is pretty powerful stuff, and if your car is already skidding towards a wall with enough momentum that the collision can't be avoided, you've got a bunch of time to start crunching numbers on a powerful enough machine.

like I said, I doubt anyone would care enough about the results to go to the effort of building such a system, but it's completely doable.

 

[ElTorro]

You people really don't get it do you. It's not the bloody technology, it's the cost free access to it.

It's also not the technology people are bitching about (why would anyone bitch against stuff like dedicated servers anyway), it's the ridiculous PR hyperbole and the oversimplified "40x the power" message that Microsoft spread.

Microsoft shot themselves in the foot. People are now so cynical about the cloud that they can't even capitalize on its legit benefits anymore (PR-wise).

 

[davepoobond]

i think they realized the cloud would be made up of methane instead of dihydrogen oxide

 

[NullPointer]

Go play Forza 1 and you will have your answer

According to Turn 10 its nothing like Forza 1 (it just shares the same name). And it learns on an individual and community level.

00:25 to 02:15 seconds in here.

the NPCs aren't something that couldn't be done locally, they're just something Respawn offload so they don't have to worry about performance going down as the number of NPCs goes up. nothing specific about Azure makes this possible. any dedicated server can do this on any platform.

Well of course, the cloud processing is being done by actual computers. Its a matter of how cost effective, how granular, scalable and accessible to developers those servers are. Its all servers, but organized as a virtualized cloud and made easily accessible as pure processing power via a simple SDK seems like actual innovation.

 

[Liamario]

Come on now OP! You didn't seriously believe all that cloud nonsense did you!?

 

[Grief.exe]

UT3 used 'the cloud' on PS3 to calculate AI of multiplayer bots on the dedicated servers.

so fucking what?

the NPCs aren't something that couldn't be done locally, they're just something Respawn offload so they don't have to worry about performance going down as the number of NPCs goes up. nothing specific about Azure makes this possible. any dedicated server can do this on any platform.

I think it has more to do with easily syncing what the clients 'see' to what the server 'sees' so everyone is on the same page.

 

[Clownboat]

It turns out The Cloud was inside us all along!

 

[morpix]

I think there will be a logo on the game box saying "Internet Connection Required"... It'll be on ALL 1st party games.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You people really don't get it do you. It's not the bloody technology, it's the cost free access to it.

I see, so Free to Play MMOs don't actually exist or something.

 

[plagiarize]

I think it has more to do with easily syncing what the clients 'see' to what the server 'sees' so everyone is on the same page.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Running AI bots dedicated server side means that all the players connected to it will 'see' the same thing, network conditions being similar. it's literally the same exact thing in both instances.

 

[sangreal]

You clearly do not understand what that service is...

They said they're provisioning instances for every xbox built. This is obviously slightly misleading in that the instances don't cost anything except when they're in use but they still have to plan for some level of utilization so there is a cost there.

We’re provisioning for developers for every physical Xbox One we build, we’re provisioning the CPU and storage equivalent of three Xbox Ones on the cloud. We’re doing that flat out so that any game developer can assume that there’s roughly three times the resources immediately available to their game, so they can build bigger, persistent levels that are more inclusive for players. They can do that out of the gate.

I see, so Free to Play MMOs don't actually exist or something.

Of course they do, but the point is that developers don't have to pay for the azure resources (ostensibly). F2P developers pay for their infrastructure whether it is on the cloud or otherwise. They just make up the cost with microtransactions.

I don't think the Azure provisioning described has anything to do with MMOs though

 

[ElTorro]

They showed a demo at E3 where they Xbox One was able to accurately recreate the trajectories of 40,000 real asteroids in our solar system. When they added computations done from the cloud they were able to display 300,000. Currently some games are calculating AI in the cloud and they've given many other examples like precalculating lighting in a scene or doing physics calculations for foliage and grass. All kinds of stuff that isn't latency sensitive. One example was someone firing a missle at a target like a tower, once the game knows where the missle is going to impact the cloud could be used to calculate the tower destruction and send the data back to the console before it impacts. That kind of stuff.

Leaving the (huge) technical issues aside for a moment, why on earth would any developer do such a thing?

Making games is also a business, hence, cost/benefit assessments are always involved. Why would a developer/publisher/platform-provider invest substantial time and money into the implementation of very complicated software parts that (a) are of limited applicability, (b) require the ongoing operation of a costly infrastructure that somebody has to pay for, and (c) do not even substantially add to the value of the game to such a degree that it would influence people's buying behavior?

They would just scale the game done so that to runs on the local dedicated hardware. Nobody would miss anything, and nobody would have to pay for development and infrastructure.

Such things make only sense if (a) they define the game as a product, like multiplayer, or (b) if they do not imply disproportional amounts of time and expenses, like social stuff (drivatar).

 

[Jagerbizzle]

The vast majority of computations done for games are latency-sensitive. And by vast majority, I mean pretty much all of them.

Perhaps in a previous gen game.

As a game developer, there are lots of "extra" features you'd love to have in your game that you simply couldn't afford to dedicate 3-5ms per frame of processing towards, so you cut those features in order to avoid cuts to your core gameplay experience.

There's a ton of different things that can be offloaded that will make the overall game a hell of a lot better. I look forward to NDAs being removed so devs can start talking about some of them to the community.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

I see, so Free to Play MMOs don't actually exist or something.

He's talking about to the devs. I don't know if it's actually cost free but it's damn sure cheaper than creating a global network of servers of your own.

 

[Jagerbizzle]

Well of course, the cloud processing is being done by actual computers. Its a matter of how cost effective, how granular, scalable and accessible to developers those servers are. Its all servers, but organized as a virtualized cloud and made easily accessible as pure processing power via a simple SDK seems like actual innovation.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

 

[conman]

Now that Xbox One doesnt require always online anymore, what about the games developed using resources from the cloud?

I mean if MS didnt outright lie about this, what about the games deep into development, will they have to be substansially altered?

What a strange question. Of course not.

Just because MS is now reversing course and not requiring online, it's not like they're dismantling their entire network now. Those games will work just as well as they would have (i.e. as well as any other persistent online games).

 

[ElTorro]

Well of course, the cloud processing is being done by actual computers. Its a matter of how cost effective, how granular, scalable and accessible to developers those servers are. Its all servers, but organized as a virtualized cloud and made easily accessible as pure processing power via a simple SDK seems like actual innovation.

And this is already huge by itself. Microsoft should have communicated the ease and cost efficiency that game developers can benefit from for their online games. They should not have brought "performance" as a relevant factor to the table.

 

[sangreal]

And this is already huge by itself. Microsoft should have communicated the ease and cost efficiency that game developers can benefit from for their online games. They should not have brought "performance" as a relevant factor to the table.

Of course, but there are performance advantages -- anything offloaded, regardless of how trivial, is more resources for the rest of the game. You're right in that it is silly to expect too much, like infinite graphics or whatever might've been claimed, but that was obviously just in response to the spec discrepancy

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Perhaps in a previous gen game.

As a game developer, there are lots of "extra" features you'd love to have in your game that you simply couldn't afford to dedicate 3-5ms per frame of processing towards, so you cut those features in order to avoid cuts to your core gameplay experience.

There's a ton of different things that can be offloaded that will make the overall game a hell of a lot better. I look forward to NDAs being removed so devs can start talking about some of them to the community.

I see. So you don't have 3-5 ms per frame on the local machine to spare, so instead you offload it to a virtual cloud machine which has minimal latency of 50-100 ms? Huh? Are you aware of how not making any sense here you are right now?

 

[Jagerbizzle]

It's nice to see some people understanding this. They really need to clarify their messaging and release more pertinent information, because what they're offering developers is awesome and people here are dismissing it as though it's some sort of PR spin.

 

[Jagerbizzle]

I see. So you don't have 3-5 ms per frame on the local machine to spare, so instead you offload it to a virtual cloud machine which has minimal latency of 50-100 ms? Huh?

Exactly.

If what you're doing doesn't have an immediate impact on gameplay, then that latency isn't a problem in the slightest. There are dozens of features that fall into that category.

 

[NullPointer]

I see. So you don't have 3-5 ms per frame on the local machine to spare, so instead you offload it to a virtual cloud machine which has minimal latency of 50-100 ms? Huh? Are you aware of how not making any sense here you are right now?

I think the idea is that you offload processes that aren't latency sensitive and that frees up those 3-5ms per frame instead of having to cut those features.

As for processes in games that aren't latency sensitive? I have no idea. I've heard everything from the AI of very distant NPCs to certain lighting and fog effects. But yeah, I have no clue on that front. I'm a programmer, but not with games.

 

[sangreal]

I see. So you don't have 3-5 ms per frame on the local machine to spare, so instead you offload it to a virtual cloud machine which has minimal latency of 50-100 ms? Huh?

He isn't saying that the task can't wait 5ms, he is saying you can't dedicate 5ms of processing time of the 33ms per frame or whatever that you have to work on it

 

[rohlfinator]

Making games is also a business, hence, cost/benefit assessments are always involved. Why would a developer/publisher/platform-provider invest substantial time and money into the implementation of very complicated software parts that (a) are of limited applicability, (b) require the ongoing operation of a costly infrastructure that somebody has to pay for, and (c) do not even substantially add to the value of the game to such a degree that it would influence people's buying behavior?

Yep. Lots of this stuff is theoretically possible, but it just doesn't make sense in an industry with so much doubt about the sustainability of the AAA business model.

It makes sense when it's lowering costs by replacing traditional dedicated servers in a game like Titanfall. It makes zero sense when it's adding substantial costs to a single-player game for dubious benefit.

 

[plagiarize]

It's nice to see some people understanding this. They really need to clarify their messaging and release more pertinent information, because what they're offering developers is awesome and people here are dismissing it as though it's some sort of PR spin.

What it offers is nothing new. It's just being offered at a good price, with good tools provided to the developers. Sony could offer the same thing if they wanted, although likely it wouldn't be as robust or mature as Azure is at first.

though, frankly, I doubt you'd see much difference 99% of the time as an end user.

will they? who knows. buying the required hardware to do what MS are doing isn't going to be any more expensive for Sony. furthermore there are other mature competitors to Azure for Sony to partner with in a way that could potentially bring down the software costs that go with virtual machines.

also, Sony have run dedicated servers as virtual machines before, so they already have the knowhow and the contacts required to scale up.

will they? if it really demonstrates an edge for MS, I'd expect so, even if they'll remain a few steps behind.

there is nothing magical about the Xbox One that allows it to make the most from cloud computing. there is no technology available to Microsoft that isn't available to Sony. it's just a matter of cost since MS don't have to license Azure, and we can only speculate what it'd cost Sony to offer something equivalent.

 

[Brinbe]

the infinite powers of the bullshit

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Exactly.

If what you're doing doesn't have an immediate impact on gameplay, then that latency isn't a problem in the slightest. There are dozens of features that fall into that category.

I'm dying to know what dozens of features don't have an immediate impact on gameplay, yet must be computed in a virtual cloud machine instead of on the local machine when gameplay isn't immediately occurring.

 

[GamerJM]

Like others have said, the cloud is 100% bull, but I'm still curious how Microsoft will backtrack on their utter garbage PR.