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Adam Orth no longer with Microsoft

"Every device now is always on. That's the world we live in. #dealwithit."

Now let me ask you: You speak of "the hive" and how there's no room for discourse with us--is #dealwithit an invitation for discourse? Is #dealwithit a shade of grey? It's in fact quite the opposite of either, isn't it?

He not only hinted at the existence of a highly controversial feature (that in reality may or may not exist) of his company's unannounced product, but did so in a very condescending manner which left NO ROOM for discussion. Are you going to keep pretending it was the gamer hive who ended the discussion before it even began?

Also, in response to your tweet, can we discard the pretense that the entire conversation was in jest with his bud? Because it wasn't. Manveer even called him out on the above, telling him, "...deal with it is a shitty reason." The backpedaling began once Manveer realized his friend was about to get some heat.

I think you're spinning the wheels here. He just said that discourse isn't thrown out.

All he's saying--not incorrectly--is that a large amount of people (in general) have a greater tendency to forego reason when pressed up against issues like this, devolving into unnecessary personal attacks and lewd mockery at times that really shouldn't exist.

I personally find the "Adam Orth meme" to be particularly irritating.

The answer to Orth's crass, inappropriate dealing with the sensitive always-online issue is to NOT deal with extremes here. Yeah, Orth was insensitive. Yeah, his comments were stupid. Yeah, he shouldn't have said them. But his intention wasn't that of serious malice. We should be the better, more mature people here.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
I don't even understand the brouhaha being made against teh internetz. Sweet Billy brought this upon himself. Everyone has a pretty damn good understanding how social media works. State an unpopular opinion in a condescending manner and there will be reprisal. The bigger you are, the further you have to fall.
 
Again though, there's really no parallels to 1984; in 1984 he'd be disappeared and you'd never hear from the guy again because he'd be dead. The guy had the freedom to say whatever he wanted, and the public had the freedom to express their distaste at that opinion. The problem in this situation, is that Adam's free speech most likely broke one of the NDAs he had signed for his job.

And again, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, none of that is relevant to this thread. The guy didn't lose his job over previous content he posted, he lost it for commenting on a heated rumour and being rude about it, against company policy. There was no detective work, he had his name and company in full view on his twitter.

I always edit too late.

Fair enough.
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
Guys, I got dad duty right now- gotta bolt. It's been fun and eye opening- so thanks for the spirited discussion.

And for the record please just know:

1- I personally am not anti-consumer and I am not pro ALWAYS ONLINE.
2- I am fully aware that since Adam is a dear friend, I am a biased person in these discussions.
3- That said, some of the folks on the net are big dicks :). But yes, certainly not all. And some of them do come here to GAF but I sure don't lump all or even most of GAF into that category. Even tho I do agree with Cliff's lynch mob point about the net in general.

Ok, shutting up now- going to raise tha kids.

Later y'all!

David
 
I don't even understand the brouhaha being made against teh internetz. Sweet Billy brought this upon himself. Everyone has a pretty damn good understanding how social media works. State an unpopular opinion in a condescending manner and there will be reprisal. The bigger you are, the further you have to fall.

Fuck you! Don't you understand?! You can only RETWEET Tweets, REPOSTING or DISCUSSING is fucking sinful!

We're all horrible people and we are all going to hell!

---
...was that okay? Am I doing it right?
Probably a good time to point out that gaf didn't do anything...literally, a bunch of people sat and discussed it on an internet forum and people realised the tweeter was a member...thats...thats it.

Evil gaf for not being blind, stupid and deaf. In fact evil gaf for always being online. Evil.
 
The idea that the Internet - GAF especially - was responsible for Orth's situation is ridiculous. HE was responsible. He posted something inflammatory on the Internet. Did he not expect the rest of Internet to see and react to something inflammatory ON THE INTERNET?

There's lots if stuff I want to say on Twitter or Facebook about stuff I see in my hometown. But my job is a fairly public and visible position. So I just say it to my wife or some good friends instead. Simple common sense.
 
Jaffe, one last thing. Even though I agree with the lynch mob concept, people that are notorious also have a fair share of defenders/white knights. Look, i didn't even know adam till the outrage and i'm probably on the defender side of things. Ying and yang.
 

Revven

Member
a- I think the 'you are typing in caps and thus your are shouting' is so stupid I do it to annoy folks who are actually ok allowing a totally manufactured rule with ZERO basis in ANYTHING close to reality to so easily seep into their lives :).

b- I get you can disagree with his FIRST statement. I get Orth was even being smarmy with the #deawithit hash and deserved some push back. But I don't think- if we are talking about the pre-Manveer comments- what he said and how he said it deserved anything more than a spirited discourse and push back against the guy. But not this.

a- I'm just poking fun! ;)

b- It all just blew up in his face, really, so for some people it's hard to separate the comment I pointed out from the other dealwithit he made plus everything else that followed afterward. Let's not forget how the media portrayed the comments, either. Shouldn't the media be partially blamed for portraying *all* of his comments as not-joking? I know some outlets said he was trolling with Manveer, but others made no mention of it.

And like I said, it's so often people hear, "I was trolling guys!" as a means to back out so it's hard to take it that he means it. He should have been more tactful in that regard.

I don't think people were asking him or calling him to be fired; at least not to my recollection. Then again, I didn't visit (and don't) Twitter, I just read the thread here on GAF the whole time the event was transpiring. There was lots of division between everyone about the event as a whole that I feel it's really hard to say, "There's a hivemind! Hivemind! Mob! Lynch mob!"

Maybe on Twitter there's a lynch mob... which I could believe because Twitter is such an abomination where you cannot possibly have any civil debate whatsoever. Everyone is so red hot blooded on there when anything is called into question or brought to light it's unreal.

But anyway, I just wanted to point out the crux of where things started to get people upset at him, aside from the always online statements. Quite a few people I found tended to miss the ones not directed at Manveer and as much as I'd like to compile all of them into a single post to both analyze and examine, it's getting late here and I have to get up early tomorrow. So I'll just leave it at this right now.

Been a pleasure talking to you Jaffe.
 
Yeah but maybe he doesn't feel the need to apologize for the ALWAYS ON stuff. Maybe he feels that way. He gets to feel that way, right?
Certainly.

And he's free to profess that feeling publicly.

With his occupation and employer in full view on his profile.

Either in full knowledge or misguided ignorance of potential to cause a furor; given the recent rumors and the recent Sim City debacle. And the potential to impact that employer's plans or image.

But that doesn't mean it was a good idea to do so.
 
Nobody on gaf fucking knew who Adam Orth even was or give two shits about him, gaf didn't invite Adam Orth to give his fantastic insight into "always-on", it was Adam Orth who decided he wanted to inject his own opinion into the issue, and instead of having a civilized dialogue, it was Adam Orth who proceeded to act all snarky and shit.

There's no "lynch mob" mentality when Adam Orth decided it was a good idea for him to insult a whole group of people (those rural people with shitty internet connection) then going "oops shit I meant to rag on only my friend, right friend? *wink wink*", don't stick your head into a hornets nest and go rararararar with your tongue sticking out. It wasn't like gaf called Steve Ballmer and like "hello this is dog fire Adam Orth", he resigned. Adam Orth is a big boy, he fucked up, microsoft got rid of him, the end. Let's not make him out into some kind of gaf lynch mob victim, however fucking all powerful gaf is on the internet.

People got mad at him because he worked for Microsoft and said what he said, some random jackass who didn't work for Microsoft could have said what Adam did verbatim, and nobody would have given 1/1000th of a fuck.
 
But just because you are not, you must admit there IS a mob mentality among fans in general, be it games (XBOX VS PS), movies (STAR WARS V. STAR TREK) and SPORTS (if I was not a geek I could give you some team rivalries :)...AUBURN v. ALABAMA?!? ":) and sometimes it can get very dirty and mean.

There's no good to come from you posting on this side, but the college football thread needs more Auburn fans to balance out the prolific posting by Alabama fans.
 

spisho

Neo Member
See above. Putting that shit on an MS associated Twitter account still causes damage to how people perceive Microsoft.

It does so only to the extent that MS' own policy is diminishing people's perception of them. Sacking Orth may be cathartic, but it doesn't fix what's broken, and to me it's an extreme and slightly antisocial gesture.
 
Yeah but maybe he doesn't feel the need to apologize for the ALWAYS ON stuff. Maybe he feels that way. He gets to feel that way, right?

And I can see people being angry at his VIEW. Good for them. But I'm suggesting they should be able to separate that anger from the part of the statement where he was joking with his friend. I got ZERO issue with people disliking Adam for his ALWAYS ON views. I just think a lot of folks are so anti ALWAYS ON that they are letting that carry over into personal attacks (and using what was a friend troll as justification for doing so).

Serious question, though, can you see why people might be upset about the why would I live there tweet even if it was made in jest as his friend explained? I can give the guy the benefit of the doubt that that was just him taking the piss out of his friend, but it still comes off as condescending to people that live in rural areas or places that are not big cities. I've been playing games all my life and have been championing them as a medium to anyone that will listen. Gaming is my biggest hobby. I work hard to afford to purchase games, as do millions of people across the country. As a kid, I used to be regaled by stories of guys in the 1980s and 1990s packing up and driving to California, getting a gig as a game tester or game journalist and suddenly a few years later they were leading their own studio or they were an editor for a major gaming publication. I still remember one of your talks about how you used Legos to try to get an idea on how to build levels. Hell, in Ken Levine's recent BAFTA talk, he explained how the way he got into the industry was by answering some random ad in Next Generation Magazine and he got hired with no experience.

I'm old enough now that I know that kind of thing just doesn't happen anymore. I apologize for the random tangent, but for a lot us gamers now the idea of working in the game industry is about as realistic as the girl from Idaho dropping out of school and driving to California with the dream of becoming a Hollywood actress.

I get that. It's just kind of annoying that it seems like there's this magical wall around the San Francisco Bay and LA area where the heart of the industry exists, but some in the old guard (not you) forget about their roots and the insanely lucky chances they got. We look up to you guys. We support you guys and we are happy for your success. We would just like the jokes about country people to be kept in the bar or among social gatherings, rather than posted on Twitter for the entire world to see.
 

Dibbz

Member
I am NOT lumping you all into anything.

You want to have an actual discussion about the facts? Cool.
You want to aid me in shifting my perspective and perhaps in doing so bring me over to your way of thinking? My mind is open.
Here are the facts.

Orth told everyone who disagreed with Always Online to deal with it
CliffyB thinks people who oppose always online are a pirate

(Remember the internet rage over the art style shift? I barely do. But it seemed so important at the time!) I would bet money that without the always online elements of Diablo 3 that it would have sold half of that.

“I’m so angry about this game treating me like a thief!” ::alt tabs over to bit torrent::

Also lets not forget that he thinks anyone who is discussing this on forums is part of a lynch mob and is wasting their time because no one is gonna listen to us no matter what because the younger generation who will lap this always online shit up will be there to replace us.

Even then, it doesn’t matter. If you’re on a forum raging about Adam’s comments there’s a whole new generation of kids who are growing up always online who won’t really give a shit. And all that anger, all of that vitrol, all of that lynch mobbing that the internet seems to love to do lately will be for naught and forgotten.

So basically we are all thrown under the same bus just for either, not liking Always Online (Deal with it thrown in our face) or are part of a lynchmob that is soon to be replaced by a younger audience.

Damn wonder why everyone is pissed?
 

xelios

Universal Access can be found under System Preferences
People got mad at him because he worked for Microsoft and said what he said, some random jackass who didn't work for Microsoft could have said what Adam did verbatim, and nobody would have given 1/1000th of a fuck.

So your point is that working for Microsoft made his flippant statements about potential features of Microsoft products carry more weight. Ok...?
 
People got mad at him because he worked for Microsoft and said what he said, some random jackass who didn't work for Microsoft could have said what Adam did verbatim, and nobody would have given 1/1000th of a fuck.

The difference between random jackass who worked for Microsoft and random jackass who didn't work for Microsoft is that random jackass who worked for Microsoft got his ass resigned by Microsoft.
 

Eusis

Member
To a degree I do wonder if just a lot of people expressing how they are VERY DISPLEASED with what Orth said gives something of a Lynch Mob impression anyway, especially with a few more extreme people thrown in? Granted it sounds like the worst came from Twitter (not a surprise, you get out of line on here or most forums and you'll get your ass thrown to the floor) but you gets LOTS of people thinking this guy comes off as a jerk compounded with the SEEMING confirmation of an online required consoles and yeah, it's going to look really, really bad even if when you take each person one by one it's usually more "what the fuck? This guy's an ass" and not much more about HIM specifically.
 
Here are the facts.

Orth told everyone who disagreed with Always Online to deal with it
CliffyB thinks people who oppose always online are a pirate



Also lets not forget that he thinks anyone who is discussing this on forums is part of a lynch mob and is wasting their time because no one is gonna listen to us no matter what because the younger generation who will lap this always online shit up will be there to replace us.



So basically we are all thrown under the same bus just for either, not liking Always Online (Deal with it thrown in our face) or are part of a lynchmob that is soon to be replaced by a younger audience.

Damn wonder why everyone is pissed?

Cliffy is talking about "the internet" in a generalized sense. You know, a very broad term that can encompass all sorts of people.

Now if he said "Everyone on NeoGAF is just a lynch mob," or "Everyone attacking Orth is just the product of a lynch mob," that would be one thing, but he's not saying that.

He's saying that the internet "likes to engage in lynch mobbing," which is not untrue in the sense that people have taken criticism of Orth too far in various instances.
 
Guys, I got dad duty right now- gotta bolt. It's been fun and eye opening- so thanks for the spirited discussion.

And for the record please just know:

1- I personally am not anti-consumer and I am not pro ALWAYS ONLINE.
2- I am fully aware that since Adam is a dear friend, I am a biased person in these discussions.
3- That said, some of the folks on the net are big dicks :). But yes, certainly not all. And some of them do come here to GAF but I sure don't lump all or even most of GAF into that category. Even tho I do agree with Cliff's lynch mob point about the net in general.

Ok, shutting up now- going to raise tha kids.

Later y'all!

David
Nice to see you chime in, sir.

Here's my thing about the Internet-as-lynch-mob issue ... I agree. But the Internet has been a well-established lynch mob for many years now. Ya gotta take that into consideration when you post ANYTHING on the web. Anything.

Not saying its right. It's just reality.
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
We would just like the jokes about country people to be kept in the bar or among social gatherings, rather than posted on Twitter for the entire world to see.

I was born in Alabama. I hate the ignorance and racism of the south but other than that, I LOVE the south.

I don't mock people for where they choose to live.

It would never occur to me to do so.

David
 

eznark

Banned
Jaffe used to post about fucking the moms of people who criticized him right? Seems odd to get pissed off about dicks on the Internet.
 

Shinta

Banned
And I do see a lynch mob mentality in this, mostly because there has been enough news of this story where it was made clear where Adam was just trolling his friend but you've still got a vast majority of folks who seem to simply ignore this aspect. Makes it pretty obvious to me that many folks are just piling on (aka lynch mob).

I didn't ignore it, I just honestly didn't believe it. It sounds like the kind of excuse you say after the fact when you've gone too far. "You're fat ... I was totally just kidding."

To me, it seemed much more likely that it was a view he actually holds on some level. Does he actually hate small towns? No, I don't believe that. But does he think that on some level, they are holding back "advancement," and he thinks they should bear some of the responsibility to upgrade on their own instead of the other way around? Yeah, it seems he really believes that. That was basically the crux of his entire argument. You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, whether the "eggs" are vacuum cleaners not working without electricity, rural gamers being left behind, or spotty mobile service.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just not naive enough to believe "just kidding!" without any further explanation. Do you understand that? I hope so.

As far as your lynch mob comments, a lot of people deny the entire premise of a "hivemind" on principle alone, but I don't. Crowd psychology is a well known phenomenon, as is peer pressure, tribalism, pack mentality with leaders and followers. All of these things are now huge elements of gamer culture after it moved to the internet. The lynch mob can turn on anything, for any reason, and it doesn't have to be rational. It can be hate for FFXIII that far exceeds any rational proportional level, it can be Kaz Hirai avatars and PS4 support, it can be lots of things. That's just how the internet works, and it's going to be part of gamer culture for good now. As someone old enough to remember what it was like to be a gamer before forums and blogs took over, I can identify with you on lamenting the mob mentality.

But the media has just as much of a mob mentality. A great majority of them follow each other on twitter. A lot of them like to try and marginalize and criticize NeoGAF. A lot of them rush to support each other all the time, even when it's not really all that warranted. A lot of them like the same kinds of games, and hate others. And the gap between what the media tends to enjoy and praise, and what hardcore gamers seem to enjoy has never been wider. In this sense, the mob of gamers is really kind of a product of the mob of bloggers. You say gamers commit to a narrative and ignore facts, but so does the media - and their narrative has an infinitely larger megaphone than any mob of gamers does. The two are intertwined, and the end result is a toxic gamer culture that sucks a lot of the fun out of gaming.

There are still moments of real discourse, individuals who think on their own, good reporting and games journalism, and gestures of support and concern for others. But mobs will always be a part of the culture now, and we just have to sift through it and not make the mistake of thinking they represent everyone. Because they don't.
 
So your point is that working for Microsoft made his flippant statements about potential features of Microsoft products carry more weight. Ok...?

I'm saying it wasn't a big deal and it should have been over and done with after him and his buddy explained what was going on, but because it was a chance to make a meme out of some Microsoft guy, here we are in the 'Adam Orth no longer with Microsoft' thread.
 

Wallach

Member
I'm saying it wasn't a big deal and it should have been over and done with after him and his buddy explained what was going on, but because it was a chance to make a meme out of some Microsoft guy, here we are in the 'Adam Orth no longer with Microsoft' thread.

No, because it was a chance to make a meme out of some Microsoft guy, we are here with a thread where we made a meme out of the Microsoft guy. Not for nothing, mostly just for having such a shit opinion.

This thread here, though, exists for an entirely different reason: because Microsoft spoke with him and they couldn't agree about his continued employment. That did not happen because of the first thread. We've made countless threads shitting on people for saying garbage things in the video game industry. Few would have a job if we got people fired when we made threads talking about their shit opinions.
 

OryoN

Member
Cliffy is talking about "the internet" in a generalized sense. You know, a very broad term that can encompass all sorts of people.

Now if he said "Everyone on NeoGAF is just a lynch mob," or "Everyone attacking Orth is just the product of a lynch mob," that would be one thing, but he's not saying that.

He's saying that the internet "likes to engage in lynch mobbing," which is not untrue in the sense that people have taken criticism of Orth too far in various instances.

He may not have directly called out GAF, but I don't see any indication of a generalization in the following comment:

Cliff:
I find it disgusting that an online community would revel in the fact that they may have potentially contributed to a person losing their job. Even then, if they didn’t have anything to do with it at the end of the day, that they have the collective ego to think that they could do that.

There are plenty phrases to properly paint a generalization than "an online community". We - and probably Cliff himself - can pretend like he didn't fire shots at GAF - who have been cited as being a key component in this matter - simply because he didn't directly mention this community. That's more of a stretch than believing otherwise, but fine, I'll give the benefit of the doubt.
 

Fewr

Member
Serious question, though, can you see why people might be upset about the why would I live there tweet even if it was made in jest as his friend explained? I can give the guy the benefit of the doubt that that was just him taking the piss out of his friend, but it still comes off as condescending to people that live in rural areas or places that are not big cities. I've been playing games all my life and have been championing them as a medium to anyone that will listen. Gaming is my biggest hobby. I work hard to afford to purchase games, as do millions of people across the country. As a kid, I used to be regaled by stories of guys in the 1980s and 1990s packing up and driving to California, getting a gig as a game tester or game journalist and suddenly a few years later they were leading their own studio or they were an editor for a major gaming publication. I still remember one of your talks about how you used Legos to try to get an idea on how to build levels. Hell, in Ken Levine's recent BAFTA talk, he explained how the way he got into the industry was by answering some random ad in Next Generation Magazine and he got hired with no experience.

I'm old enough now that I know that kind of thing just doesn't happen anymore. I apologize for the random tangent, but for a lot us gamers now the idea of working in the game industry is about as realistic as the girl from Idaho dropping out of school and driving to California with the dream of becoming a Hollywood actress.

I get that. It's just kind of annoying that it seems like there's this magical wall around the San Francisco Bay and LA area where the heart of the industry exists, but some in the old guard (not you) forget about their roots and the insanely lucky chances they got. We look up to you guys. We support you guys and we are happy for your success. We would just like the jokes about country people to be kept in the bar or among social gatherings, rather than posted on Twitter for the entire world to see.
Worth quoting.
 
No, because it was a chance to make a meme out of some Microsoft guy, we are here with a thread where we made a meme out of the Microsoft guy. Not for nothing, mostly just for having such a shit opinion.

This thread here, though, exists for an entirely different reason: because Microsoft spoke with him and they couldn't agree about his continued employment. That did not happen because of the first thread. We've made countless threads shitting on people for saying garbage things in the video game industry. Few would have a job if we got people fired when we made threads talking about their shit opinions.

Its all a part of it. It pretty sad it ballooned up to what it is though. Especially when it may not even matter a month from now when Microsoft finally announces the system.
 

Wallach

Member
Its all a part of it. It pretty sad it ballooned up to what it is though. Especially when it may not even matter a month from now when Microsoft finally announces the system.

It's as much a part of it as any thread we've made where we discuss some current happening related to the games industry.
 
Blaming "the internet" for his firing is damn silly in general because all it took for this guy to become news was for someone to post what he said in twitter in a public forum.

That it got discussed was a combination of his position, the rumors swirling about his companies products, the content of his tweets and the tone of his tweets. That a great deal of individuals found it interesting enough to discuss is not due to some gigantic overmind deciding it was a thing that must be discussed but because it was a perfect storm of timing that made it a novel thing to talk about.

That it just being in public was enough to make it news, and that it being news was enough to make him resign is not on the people discussing it in public. That's on him for saying it and on Microsoft for (possibly) pressuring him out---all any of us individuals can do is become a part of the discussion that arise from these situations.

I mean, what is the solution? Not respond with our thoughts because we think the dude might get in trouble even if it is unlikely to change anything? Should public figures get a free pass to say dumb shit because we're afraid of getting people in trouble?

If the words you say in public can't handle public scrutiny, you probably should have only spoken them in private.
 
I wouldn't wish getting fired on anyone, and it might be kinda harsh, but honestly, WTF was he thinking "joking around" about a high-profile machine made by his employer publicly where everyone can see?
 

codecow

Member
They understand quite well, which is why the games media/developers will try to brand detractors of always-online DRM as hysterical weirdos who need to just "deal with it".

I don't like being lumped in with so-called developers as if we're one entity. We're unique individuals with our own hopes and dreams.

/dodgesrottencabbages
 

inky

Member
I don't like being lumped in with so-called developers as if we're one entity. We're unique individuals with our own hopes and dreams.

/dodgesrottencabbages

Nicely done.

But seriously, if there are many devs out there (from big publishers/1st parties) who see this the way most of we do they are mighty silent about it. I'm sure there must be, but of course who among them is going to speak up against this other than indies and the like? No one. (not that I don't understand why they wouldn't but if they are keeping silent to keep their job, might as well pretend they are tacitly supporting of this).

The rest will lump the audience in with the crazies, because that is easy. Easy to call us a "vocal minority", parade Diablo 3 sales in front of us and continue pushing this despite the (well deserved imo) complaints.
 

xelios

Universal Access can be found under System Preferences
I don't like being lumped in with so-called developers as if we're one entity. We're unique individuals with our own hopes and dreams.

/dodgesrottencabbages

Perhaps this should've been part of the 75%... =p
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
Dear game companies,

See this? That's why you have us.


Yours truly,
Community Management
 
What he did was obviously stupid, but I still feel it was pretty harsh to fire him :(. Poor guy.

Personally I have sometimes opened my mouth and said some pretty stupid shit that I regretted later.. I'm sure everyone has.
 

larvi

Member
I was born in Alabama. I hate the ignorance and racism of the south but other than that, I LOVE the south.

I don't mock people for where they choose to live.

It would never occur to me to do so.

David

You just did. There is ignorance and racism in the north, east and west as well. No sense implying that the south has a monopoly on it or even the majority of it.
 

spisho

Neo Member
When it concerns a very unpopular feature, well, everyone.

It's consequential in that it expresses (allegedly) the policy of Microsoft, but the outsize outrage concerning his tone was hypocritical as it's typical internet snark, which the people crying foul about him seem to be much better at.

I personally think it was the wrong move to fire him since "Orth-gate" would have blown over. It's as if MS really believe that Orth was the problem, not their potential Online-Only console plans, and that firing him will somehow end the controversy.
 
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